The Burning Truth with Emma Sutcliffe of EV Firesafe | The Fully Charged Podcast

If you read the tabloid Press you’d think there were EV battery fires occurring everyday! However this is far from accurate, and in today’s podcast Robert speaks with Emma Sutcliffe from evfiresafe.com, an organisation dedicated to research, training and enhancing safety for emergency responders attending electric vehicle traction battery fires.
As an operational firefighter herself in Australia, Emma and her team have unprecedented access to front line emergencies, and this podcast is a fascinating look at what they are doing to tackle misinformation and the many unfounded claims pushed by those who are opposed to the electrification of ground transport and the move away from fossil fuels.
See Emma’s work here: www.evfiresafe...
Why not come and join us at our next Everything Electric expo: everythingelec...
Support our StopBurningStuff campaign: / stopburningstuff
Become a Fully Charged SHOW Patreon: / fullychargedshow
Become a KZbin member: use JOIN button above
Buy the Fully Charged Guide to Electric Vehicles & Clean Energy : buff.ly/2GybGt0
Subscribe for episode alerts and the Fully Charged newsletter: fullycharged.s...
Visit: FullyCharged.Show
Find us on Twitter: / fullychargedshw
Follow us on Instagram: / fullychargedshow
#fullychargedpodcast #fullychargedshow #everythingelectric #fullychargedlive

[@Stan-at-KangarooIslandTV]

As a resident and EV owner on Kangaroo Island I feel a bit discriminated against by new regulations on our SeaLink ferry service, mainly because I have my battery temp tested and go on last to park at the very front, closest to the back to be “pushed off”! The worst thing is my lovely new Polestar copping the sea spray, the positive is being in pole position to drive off at the other side. See you at the Sydney show!

[@ahaveland]

I would appeal, but you could also put a tarp or equivalent over the car if salt water really is a problem.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

When we all have them what are Sealink going to then???. more crap.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

It's because EV fires sink ships, they can't be put out.

[@ahaveland]

@@Robert-cu9bm Evidence?

[@Robert-cu9bm]

@@ahaveland Felicity ace Fire is the worst thing for any ship since the dawn of ships, and a fire that can't be put out is even worse. EV fires can't be put out because they have their own oxygen.

[@ForTheBirbs]

I'm medically retired from Australia's CSIRO in fire research area and 40 years as a volunteer in NSW Rural Fire Service. A great podcast

[@JoshuaMcTackett]

In 2011, My first car, a 1991 Toyota Celica - spontaneously combusted. This is a year after the engine ceased on the way home from buying it, engine was rebuilt, and had been in use for another 7 months or so. It was a week before Christmas, the fire couldn’t be stopped, and this ICE car took out my parents’ garage and $50k of goods - everything in it in the process. All cars catch fire. We need this crap to stop.

[@rjbiker66]

So you are talking about a 20yr old catching fire after engine was replaced.

[@ryanwilliams3857]

Facts

* seized

[@alanhat5252]

​@"ceased" is a perfectly valid word in the context.

[@kadmow]

@@alanhat5252 - Of course Linguistic overreach exists - -a$$ is, dolts defending others making logical leaps of inaccuracy and dis-education, not just simple spelling mistakes... Perfectly valid correction for someone with English as an Additional - second language.. (EA/SL). ha ha - just taking some comic relief.

[@johnleeinslc]

I am a Model 3 owner and firefighter in Utah. Thanks for the great discussion. I’ve been more interested in extraction than with fires. Vehicle extraction will change a lot with the construction changes that go along with EVs. I’m really looking forward to seeing dashboard roll in a front casting Model Y.

[@wilfredvanvalkenburgh2874]

Pardon me, my ignorance is showing, but what is a "dashboard roll"?

[@johnleeinslc]

@@wilfredvanvalkenburgh2874 when an occupant is trapped, the door is removed, and the A pillar is cut behind the door hinges. A spreader is then used to lift and ‘roll’ the dashboard out of the way. I’ve not yet seen this performed on an aluminum front casting vehicle. If we ever get a new Model Y in a local junk yard, I call dibs on cutting it. I want to see how the casting impacts occupant extraction technique.

[@ToumalRakesh]

I drove my Zoe for 4 years. It ALWAYS caught on fire. The Model 3 I drove after that, just *constantly* on fire. And now the Model Y that was just on fire straight from the factory. But seriously, my last burning ICE car I saw two weeks ago. I remember back in August I saw a huge plume of smoke that turned out to be 20km away on the A2 in Austria - a bus caught on fire during driving. Nobody was hurt, and I passed it the next day and there was only some metal ribs and part of the chassis left. Can you *imagine* the news hype if that had been an EV...

[@gazza595]

I used to travel a lot for my job, around 20-25K miles PA, I think there was very few weeks would go by without seeing a car on the side of the road either on fire or burnt out. The vast majority of this was before EVs or when the numbers on the road were very low so these would have all been ICE cars.

[@ahaveland]

🙂 I roast marshmallows for breakfast with my EV when it catches fire every morning... Yeah, these stories are ridiculous, coming from a panicked fossil fuel industry seeing their obscene profits draining away as people see the light and go electric.

[@tonyireland2234]

What drugs are you on ? They are top class !

[@johnobryan7749]

This is bullshit :evidence the fossil fuel industry is actively working toward discrediting the EV car production they must be really worried @@tonyireland2234

[@Shew0000]

😂

[@Project-jf3bz]

The EV fire scare stories are ridiculous, they are everywhere. My dad is constantly sending photos of them. Most of which aren’t even EV’s. When he sends them I just send him the stats along with a picture of an ICE car on fire.

[@EcoFP33]

Do you recall the Vauxhall Zafiras all being on fire about 10 years ago? Very common sight online. Don't recall those being electric!

[@lotusgroup123]

There are the scare stories which are wrongly attributed to EV’s, but then unfortunately there are the stories where it seems clear an EV has caught fire. EV Firesafe are trying to be the informed voice of reason, and good on them for taking up the challenge, but as Robert said, he wasn’t aware of the recalls of certain car brands. As evangelists of EV adoption, information sources such as Fully Charged need to be on top of such events and to give accurate accounts of such stories, or they will be branded as being blinkered and biased.

[@t1n4444]

@@lotusgroup123 Blinkered and biased? Perish the thought!

[@rendezone]

But he’s your dad… He can’t let you be right! He’d be doing an awful job if he wasn’t protecting you by trying to open your eyes! Jokes aside, he probably feels that way, so please be kind to him 😊

[@Project-jf3bz]

@@rendezone ha ha, I will. 👍

[@dieseldog289]

It's so nice to hear and adult conversation around this subject for a change! As an EV driver all I ever get from people is "oh it'll blow up sooner or later". I get sick of it! Ive posted that pdf from EVFiresafe for all my friends to see. I also work in the motor trade and the attitude of other mechanics astounds me, the vast majority I come across either don't want to work on them or are convinced whatever you do will harm you! I will gladly test EV's all day long, I absolutely love them and I think that with time and technology they will only get better, I just wish other humans would do the same and make educated choices instead of relying on social media which is so full of misinformation!

[@markmiller8903]

Wow you EV people have been duped!!! YOU need to trade your EV for a gas or diesel ICE car.

[@onslimited]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3q7hYNjicyDe9ksi=NbbuceE_ZnJAhebZ

[@NealeUpstone]

This is an excellent episode. I live a mile away from where 3 died and the father survived in a fire in a flat caused by an e-mobility device. It shocked the whole community. Yet, as with New York, the safety of EVs is what is in question rather than focusing on what devastates families.

[@evilutionltd]

When ICE cars 1st appeared in the UK in 1894, the fire brigade didn't have the apparatus or training to extinguish petrol fires because they really only dealt previously with wood and small quantities of heating oil. It took a decade before they even looked at new specific fire fighting equipment for ICE cars. Same now with EVs. As they become more prevalent, the fire brigade will get new tools, new training and new equipment.

[@Hybridog]

The new equipment is coming. Google "Rosenbauer Introduces the Battery Extinguishing System Technology (BEST)" and you'll see what this company has developed.

[@Peter-vn8ue]

Wonderful topic. In Australia, all hybrid and Bev vehicles have a blue and white triangle attached to the vehicle's number plate front and back with EV in white letters on a blue background on this triangle shape, so when the emergency services arrive they can see its an electric vehicle and how best to tackle the situation.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

True, but its a bit of a sop as 1/ IF there is a fire then the aluminium numberplates may have melted. 2/ if one can see its an EV as a first responder then they should not be a firey.

[@Peter-vn8ue]

That's why I said emergency services. Have you never seen all three attend a fire? Fire brigade, police and paramedics? It's a standard procedure that all 3 attend.

[@jonathantaylor1998]

Gosh... As brilliant as they are, I don't often have the time to commit to listening to an entire podcast on this channel - sorry, Robert and Team 😔 - but, this one...? Man, I couldn't STOP listening to...!! WOW...! Absolutely fascinating and the numbers - or rather, the 'lack' of them compared to the UK's Media / Social Media reports - left me gobsmacked. I've been 'quoting' the 2022 car fires report from the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency to any commentators claiming "all EVs catch fire"... but, the data on the EV Firesafe website is SO much easier to deal with. This'll now be my "go to" rebuff resource... 😉 Thank you, Robert and Emma for a wonderful hour 🙂

[@onslimited]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3q7hYNjicyDe9ksi=NbbuceE_ZnJAhebZ

[@RichardFraser-y9t]

Petrol car fire videos never go viral, they dont fit the story.

[@peteglass3496]

Bjorn Nyland went to Copenhagen and did an interesting interview on his channel with the city's fire chief. They have developed some simple tools and procedures to deal with fires in car sized EVs which all go to reduce the 'scariness' of an incident, rare as they may be.

[@CultureAgent]

Don't demonise e bikes too much, in the future very few people will be able to afford an electric car, then there's the insurance! The vast majority of journeys in the hoped for low emission future will be on electric public transport or e bikes. I've owned an ebike since 2019, granted it's as tough as old boots, the battery is stored within the frame and the pack is also in a metal enclosure. A lot of the fires are down to people not using the correct charger or putting in a battery the device isn't rated for, mistakenly thinking they'll go faster etc. The other huge mistake is charging bikes overnight and even worse, doing this in a hallway that cuts off access to the one means of escape, especially prevalent in flats. Sadly like most things in life, a minority is demonising something wonderful that the majority could benefit from. There is a covered bike store outside my building but I don't trust my neighbours and there's no charging available. That bike has changed my life in multiple fantastic ways, I'd love to see more people having this freedom.

[@stevengriffin7873]

Had my Ebike just over a year now,would never go back to a pedal bike.Even went to the shops instead of driving there.

[@gadgetmeister8503]

Fire is scary. Saying EVs catch fire, is a scare campaign.

[@lotusgroup123]

Not necessarily a scare campaign. If it’s happening, it’s something we need to know about and deal with.

[@Knott1701]

@@lotusgroup123 but highlighting them more than ICE, where they are anywhere between 20 to 100 times less likely to catch fire is a scare campaign. for example, 2 buses caught fire in London Friday before last, which one do you think was all over the news and social media, and which one was completing ignored?

[@lotusgroup123]

The transition to EV’s big story at the moment, and it seems to be one with talk of new non Lithium-Ion batteries being developed in a response to fears over Lithium-Ion suitability. If they were as foolproof as we would hope, there wouldn’t be a story. Maybe when EV’s are going up in smoke as often as ICE vehicles, it will cease to be news.

[@Knott1701]

@@lotusgroup123 nothing is perfect, but traditional Lithium Ion is still 20 times less likely to catch fire than ICE based on the figures coming out of Norway over the last 5 years, and even better elsewhere, so will never be anywhere as often. LFP is safer still. The main driver for alternatives is cost, (Sodium ion is 20% cheaper than LFP), and safely is secondary and fortunately even better. Solid state is still lithium, the advantage is energy density and lifetime

[@ohyesitsme]

It's not the problem if there are more ICE fires, they can easily be extinguished but if an EV goes into thermal runaway then there is a problem. The noxious gases given off by the battery also contains oxygen and therefore just hosing with water will not have the desired effect as it has it's own oxygen supply.. Getting water to the source, the battery, is extremely difficult as it is in a protective casing and because of this casing when the pressure of the gasses get so great then you have an explosion. This does not happen in ICE vehicles.

[@theunknownunknowns5168]

The 12v battery on a Range Rover is on the opposite side of where the fire started. Fire fire started in the very spot those Range Rovers were recalled for fires.

[@gazza595]

It would be really good to have a reference or source for this, I'm p*ssed off with having this one thrown at me. Latest was that this was a cover up and it was EV and they're just covering it up.

[@sailingoctopus1]

Unfortunately Trump demonstrated to the world that if you throw enough muck then some of it sticks. The perpetrators don't care that none of it is true, they just see it as an opportunity to promote their political ideology and attack the liberal elite.

[@theunknownunknowns5168]

​@@gazza595see Electric Classic Cars Richard did a good summary.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

​@@gazza595 There's nothing I can find that actually says what type of range rover it was. Saying "we believe" isn't a fact which is what the fire brigade put out and why people don't trust them. The fire on video has the tell tale marks of a battery fire. Jet off flames from under the car. Exactly like she was saying. Until an actual report comes out and states the facts, everything is just speculation.

[@alanhat5252]

​@@theunknownunknowns5168its reg number was E10EFL, look it up for yourself it was a straight Diesel. Also, the 112,000 recalled were for a fault which sprays Diesel fuel on hot engine parts causing a fire.

[@MrSabrecat]

The two things firefighters dread the most, dead bodies and fires they can't extinguish.

[@warrenneeves7103]

11:22Got to love a presenter who has a guest on the program and blocks them out for two minutes straight with a personal monologue.

[@ramblerandy2397]

Oh, you're behind the times Robert. Now it's all about BEVs not working in the winter. I guess it's all about the other end of the heat scale now. 😊 Fascinating video, btw. 👍

[@t1n4444]

😂😂😂 So true. We've seen a lot of reporting on the topic of battery EVs "v" the cold. Come on Robert, let's see your reporting on the low temperatures issue. And let's have no more of your usual. disingenuous comments 🤣🤣🤣🤣 It's almost as if you have some sort of vested interest in batteries. Regardless of what the poor deluded battery boys believe EV batteries can and do self ignite. To deny this is ludicrous. It's almost as if said battery boys believe all batteries are built perfectly every time. And of course we have seen in the case of the Luton airport multi storey car park fire that batteries in EVs will quite happily burn away given an outside source of fire. It's the extinguishing of the battery fire which is the problem. Plenty of info via Google of arsed. For the avoidance of argument I refer to lithium ion batteries. We have yet to see if "other" technology batteries can self ignite, and, more importantly, how easy it is to extinguish such a fire. Fortunately we are to be treated to hydrogen fuel cell and hydrogen gas fueled ICE vehicles in the near future. I note that we have yet to regaled with any reports of hydrogen powered vehicles bursting into flames ... perhaps there aren't any reports? I'm sure posters on this platform would have let us know. Happy to dispute any arguments of course.

[@JohnRoss1]

The batteries are too cold to catch fire😂😂😂

[@drumbrakes]

It's summer in Australia!

[@t1n4444]

@@drumbrakes Yes but it's not all about Australians is it. It's all about Europe, especially UK. Everyone in Europe knows that.

[@AmateurBMS]

I wish the self proclaimed “auto expert” John Cadogan could have watched this and actually learned something. He is one of these individuals that is really “worried” about electric car fires.

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

Yes, I commented on his latest Bus EV fire video about producing clickbait for clicks, maybe need to post Emme's site on his next clickbait EV fire

[@dmhboag5882]

Saw cadogan on current affair, what a fool

[@John.0z]

I gave up on listening to him before he started talking about EVs - he is far too biased in most of the things he said way back then. Every now and then YT presents one of his clickbait titles, and I ignore them. IMHO YT promotes fools like him, and they are therefore doing the direct opposite of being a responsible provider of information. You can claim that is not their role. But if being responsible is not a part of their social contract with viewers, then that implies that their role is to be actively irresponsible - so long as they earn money!

[@MegaWilderness]

I'd rather listen to an engineer than a film actor

[@John.0z]

@@MegaWilderness That tends to avoid the question of Cadogan's veracity with an appeal to authority. Appealing to authority is usually deemed to be a mistake; even an authority can be biased. Prior to stopping listening to him, I had not heard Cadogan provide evidence to support his often inflamed opinions. Being an actor and presenter of car- and technology-related shows, as Robert is, has given him entry to call upon many experts to provide evidence to support _their_ views. His news shows are direct reports on what is happening in this field, they are not his unsubstantiated opinions.

[@Stephen-Jones]

Another great show from the team. I did go and share a timestamped link about the UK carpark fire because I still keep hearing from people saying "it was electric car" 🤬💢

[@t1n4444]

No, you don't keep hearing that at all. The news reporting was clear the fire originated in a diesel fueled vehicle. One might speculate the battery EV sector demanded that a self igniting battery was not presented as the villain of the piece. However, as we saw from the footage EVs turned out not to be fireproof in any measure. The fire was controlled as best as was possible given the presence of a lot of lithium ion cells. Extinguishing a lithium ion fire is not a matter of turning a hose on it. Again, info to be found via Google. Hope that goes some way to correct your ridiculous claim.

[@Stephen-Jones]

@@t1n4444 You might want to re-read what I said. I keep hearing from people SAYING IT TO ME and I am sharing what was said here to say IT WAS NOT AN ELECTRIC CAR. (capitalised to emphasise, not shouting)

[@mondotv4216]

@@Stephen-JonesYeah I still get people arguing in YT comments that it was a PHEV and not a straight diesel.

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

EV battery fires are harder to extinguish than an ICE vehicle fire. It's just a fact. Stop trying to deny it. Of course any vehicle can catch fire, it's the speed and intensity of the fire and what can be done about it that is the issue. We need to use the safest chemistry available.

[@FutureSystem738]

Thanks Robert, this was great and very much needed! 👍👍👍 I actually remember very well Emma’s PHEV getting burnt by the bush fire. The fire “mania” is absolutely out of control right now here in Australia. It’s pathetic. I might also add that a friend lost his car AND caravan when his diesel SUV caught fire.

[@thisisnumber0]

Luton airport was a diesel hybrid. Watch the video, ferocious flames down and sideways. Only lithium batteries burn like this. If you were on top of your game, you would be asking why this was covered up and by whom. No EVs there? Look again at the violent collapse of the floor. Nothing but a lithium fire could have generated the heat and ferocity to do sudden damage like that.

[@atcogswell]

EV fires were even noted on the Weekend Update on SNL this past weekend. Of course they joke that you could use the battery fire to keep warm since EVs can't be charged in extreme cold. I live in Canada and I've never encountered this issue, but the media latches on to these stories because EV stories draw eyeballs right now.

[@tonyireland2234]

Perhaps you ought to watch this years news.

[@1d2a3d4d5i6o]

The fire report for the Luton airport carpark has still not been published so how do you know what vehicle caused it.

[@theunknownunknowns5168]

Emma race tracks in Aotearoa are banning electric vehicles. In Feilding the Manfeild race track banned electric bikes on the open days. For "safety" reasons, and apparently nothing to do with a Energica kicking ice bottom. Same bike banned for being too fast at Meremere Dragway. Help. No me but all down under.

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

more garbage, so in 50 years time thay won't have any modern cars on their tracks, just old ICS sh1t.

[@PaulM0XLO]

Very impressed with both the evfiresafe website and particularly Emma Sutcliffe.

[@ateiviz]

I always see the people going on about EV fires in China and how we're not hearing about it because of censorship. Does your database have access to this information? I'd love to point those people to it if it does.

[@kc218]

Thanks for the nudge: I’ve unplugged the 2 electric scooters in my garage

[@whitneylake2107]

Could the database expand to include all vehicle types (busses, trains, semis, planes and even ships) because any kind of vehicle can catch fire for any number of reasons, right ? Thank you, as always, for solid unbiased information

[@BobHannent]

The London bus fires seem to have captured the anti-EV crowd. Except i looked it up and there's already a huge number of non-EV bus fires in London each year.

[@milly10191]

The world needs more people like Emma.

[@antoniopalmero4063]

The world is full of them 😮

[@jillguldbransen5700]

Made my day Emma! And its wear orange SES national day - 22 May 2024. Much gratitude for all emergency responders, secondary, volunteers. Thanks to you and all tireless citizen and expert scientists who quietly compile data and dis-spell fearful myths. A brilliant global service. A sweet fact to love, "We are more likely to be saved by our neighbours in times of crisis." Keep waving 👋 your hand at govts to listen. Def. expect more push the randoms to get proper traction. Ps YT isn't all rubbish hey? Hugs to you both. Great show.

[@Knott1701]

434 fires globally out of over 10.2 million EV cars on the road. I'd take those odds.

[@glimpseireland2005]

Looking at the figures on the attached evfiresafe datasheets, does it not suggest that there are around 40 million EV cars on the road by now? Even better odds, good point. (I hope I'm reading them correctly)

[@Robert-cu9bm]

How many ICE vehicle fires in the same age bracket as EV. You can't compare a brand new EV not catching fire to a 15yr old abused ICE vehicle.

[@PauldeVrieze]

You mean excluding China

[@Brian-om2hh]

And 190'000 ICE car fires during 2022. (NTSB statistics)

[@quibblegaze]

0:35: 🔥 Discussion on EV fires and statistical research by Emma Sutcliffe. 5:12: 🔥 Discussion about social media influence on electric vehicle safety and the speaker's background. 10:04: 🔥 Discussion about the transition from research to consulting and training in the global context of electric vehicle safety. 14:46: 🔥 Discussion about the dangers of personal mobility devices and the risk of fire hazards. 19:37: 🔥 Discussion about the safety of electric vehicles and the incidence of fires involving e-bikes and e-scooters. 24:32: 🔥 Discussion about recent electric vehicle fires and their implications. 29:28: 🔥 Discussion on electric vehicle fires and battery fires. 34:16: 🔥 Discussion about car fires and managing differences in fire incidents. 39:02: ⚡ The risk of electrocution in electric vehicles is very low. There is a small potential for battery fires, but it is a risk with any car. 43:46: 🔥 Discussing the impact of traumatic events on emergency responders and the importance of their comfort with electric vehicles. 48:47: 🔥 Discussion about the dangers of electric vehicle technology and the need for secondary responders. 53:10: 🔥 The speaker acknowledges the size of Australia and the perspective on fire statistics for electric cars versus petrol cars. 58:03: 🔥 Discussion on electric vehicle safety, training, and tracking of electric buses and trucks. Recapped using Tammy AI

[@MrGMawson2438]

Great show thanks Robert and Emma

[@mikemellor759]

Great to discuss EV fire risk with someone who understands the issue. 👏👏

[@sailingoctopus1]

They skated around the subject, but are LFP batteries less likely to catch fire than NCM, or not? Clearly Emma didn't want to discuss this and I want to know why. Everything will burn if you subject it to enough heat, so it's not very helpful to say that all EV batteries will burn. My understanding is that the electrolyte in LFP batteries is non flammable and that, although, it is possible to get LFP batteries into thermal runaway, it needs to be subjected to intense heat from an external source, unlike NCM, which can be self-igniting. Also, the number of cells in Emma's Tesla was mentioned, but there was no mention of whether or not that is a factor in starting a fire. Intuitively, a Tesla with thousands of battery connections to, potentially, short out, is more likely to catch fire than, say, an MG4 that has 104 cells and 208 connections. What does the data show us?

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

LFP batteries are far less likely to enter thermal runaway than NCM batteries. But that is not the only trick that they have up their sleeve. They don't oxidise in decomposition which means they can be extinguished by conventional methods, which NCM batteries cannot. The maritime sector and the aviation sector have known about this for years and have specified LFP rather than NCM when using L-ion batteries in a variety of applications. I would like to see the data regarding the likelihood between something like the MG4 and the Tesla, too. There is a lot to be said for your logic.

[@brianmollan]

As an ex-bushie and 11 year LEAF owner, I admire Emma and what she and her team are doing. But I was surprised that she did not mention the HV battery isolation switch, vital knowledge for every first responder and EV owner. In the 2012 LEAF, this is underneath a carpet flap, on the ‘tunnel’ between the front and rear set.

[@RandallSlick]

Very good discussion. Emma's a natural communicator. Fully expect to see this sensible research plastered over the front pages of the RW press in the coming days.

[@ecospider5]

The high voltage in an electric car is not connected to the frame of the car in any way. So you would have to find a positive wire and a negative wire and touch them both at the same time to get a shock. And since it is DC you would get third degree burns but it probably won’t stop your heart like AC would. They said this in the video. I just felt it was worth repeating.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

DC is worse as muscle contracts and doesn't release. AC there is a period of 0v 50 or 60 times a second.

[@ecospider5]

@Robert-cu9bm And what exactly do you do with that 120th of a second when your muscles isn’t contracting?

[@carlkuss8300]

​@@ecospider5 sincerely hope you never try to repair your own ev. If you believe you need to find a pos and neg and hold them both to get a shock the results could be deadly.

[@ecospider5]

@carlkuss8300 Interesting comment. How exactly do you think electricity works?

[@carlkuss8300]

​@@ecospider5 that would require a very long response .the important point you need to understand is that electricity will find the path of least resistance (to earth/ground). If you touch anything that's live and are not hovering that path becomes you!

[@gavinhagan8357]

This is one of the best chats I’ve heard. Not just because the guest is an Aussie but because there is no BS and data based info on a subject that the TROLLS are spewing so much lately. Thank you so much. Will be sharing.

[@VladoK_404]

People use millions of smartphones. There is often more than 1 smartphone per household. Often they are on couch or bed. One failure and everything burns down. Take into consideration that mobile phone batteries are much more strained. And much less protected and cooled than car batteries. An yet there is fear asymmetry. Something that can burn us in sleep is well tolerated. Something other, much better protected against rough handling (car battery) is a scarecrow for us.

[@t1n4444]

I despair. EV batteries can ignite regardless of being cooled or not. You could have researched this prior to posting. Why didn't you?

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@t1n4444 Cooling definitely make fire less likely. I supposed active cooling can let you dump extra power in the pack while charging, which may increase the risk overall.

[@t1n4444]

@@jamesphillips2285 Hmm ... now, when you say cooling how low a temperature are we talking about? Unheated Lithium ion batteries won't take much of a charge at or below 0C. It's a chemical reaction thing which can result in one of the electrodes becoming plated with lithium metal if a high current is supplied at very low temperatures. Increasing the volts allows a lower current for the same power but there is the danger of the battery getting a good kicking every time you fast charge. Nowadays the BMS sorts out charging at very low temperatures and can enable a battery heater. However, as we see in the press reports of the very gold weather condx the battery heaters have limits and coping at temperatures below neg1C won't allow a great deal of current for charging. In the very early days lithium batteries were limited to milliamps of charging current at 0C. It would appear that very cold weather slows down the rate of charge quite considerably. And seeing as the battery *science" is a chemical reaction then batteries simply don't work as well when very cold hence we see claims that even fully charged batteries have only around half the usual range. That's a very simple explanation but you can read chapter and verse online if arsed. I couldn't be arsed to crib out pages of stuff when you can read the info online.

[@devonbikefilms]

Great interview as ever, really important to fight back against the FUD and emotional arguments from people with little actual knowledge who are being manipulated.

[@tonyireland2234]

or the truth.

[@BobQuigley]

Here in US between 600 and 700 ICE cars catch fire every single day. Doesn't include large truck fires, gas station fires, natural gas fires, refinery fires.

[@markumbers5362]

Then there's oil rig fires and coal mine fires that can last years and there's a long list of kids burned mucking around with petrol.

[@connclissmann6514]

That sounds high - 237,000 per year? Is there a source for that? I would like to learn more.

[@t1n4444]

Just Google. If anything that figure might be a tad low. Number breakdown available.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

Compared to how many on the road, their age, maintenance etc.

[@kellyklingbeil5802]

Those who own one won't and can't face it because they are in it up to their necks and those who don't have one, have the luxury of unbiased observation and the longterm in which the truth is proven out.

[@Pottery4Life]

Good information. Thank you.

[@MichaelEricMenk]

25:25: The fire on the ferry was between Oslo and Copenhagen or Kiel.. The fire did not start the converted EV, but in the schoku wall plug overheated and and the extentions cord caught fire. The fire spread from there. And the battery did not catch fire (and it was not lithium batteries) In other words, the converted EV was all good. It was the wall plug or the extention cord that was the problem... At the time a lot of people thought that schoku could handle 16A over time. The reality is more around 6-8A. As of today, you are not allowed boiler to a schoku of the boiler uses more than 6.5A...

[@ahaveland]

You don't say, but I assume you're actually saying that the EV was charging using a mains outlet on the ferry. If the extension cord was the problem such as being coiled up, then it's the EV owners fault. Schuko plugs *can* handle 16A - that is part of strict specifications, I've charged my Tesla using one at 16A. The one on the ferry may have been substandard or a different type that didn't mate properly.

[@AlexanderCraig-xl3di]

The Luton airport airport Range Rover fire was my friends next door neighbour. It had an electrical smoke from the dash before he got there but then it stopped smoking he carried on to the airport. As we all know it caught fire in the car park. He got his case out, called the fire brigade and airport security but then left it to book in for his holiday. He didn’t make his holiday 😂💀

[@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834]

whf, they are so selfish.

[@ColinCarFan]

I don't think so. Nice, but inaccurate story though.

[@AlexanderCraig-xl3di]

@@ColinCarFan No, it is as Ive said, not inaccurate, you just want to be seen replying that's all you melt.

[@Youtubedotcomma]

What a great resource to have available. I can’t help but think this should’ve been started earlier, but better late than never.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Excellent Teaching Observations and record keeping, thank you.

[@rjbiker66]

I think robert should review the UK Gov paper on EV fires and proposals for changes to enclosed car parks. They recognise there is a problem

[@mikek6049]

one day (and I dread it happening) an EV fire WILL cause a major problem (because even if less likely all things can set on fire).. and when it happens the media will gleefully scream "see I told you so!". it is sickening really. I am convinced some people actively want this to happen :(

[@markeggleton2981]

Such a great podcast very informative, thanks and keep up the great work.

[@jchinuk]

I am old enough to remember when catalytic converters were added to ICE, there were a few cases of hot converters starting fires when the cars were parked on dry grass. There were only a few, yet the coverage in the media was as if these cars were exploding at a random on a daily basis. Londoners will remember that the MB 'bendy-buses' were regularly catching fire, again these were diesel buses. These stories are just manna from heaven for tabloid hacks wanting to fill a page. I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager most of the tragedies with e-scooters catching fire involve scooters that are cheap imports, sold online and without the appropriate BSI / CE testing and certification. It was the same with 'hoverboards' a few years ago.

[@stevencooper2339]

So good to hear someone who doesn't have a pro or anti EV agenda but just wants to understand the facts & find out the best way to mitigate risks. It would have been great if she had a better interviewer than Robert who drew out more information rather than interrupting with anecdotes.

[@frejaresund3770]

I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.

[@henvan8737]

Sorry, when is the EV show in Melbourne , I forgot the date ?????

[@viplav76]

It’s 15 months here in the US & 12 driving a Tesla. Would love to share the experience, all around. Including some serious challenges, and some amazing benefits of EVs, as I experienced. On my own I document my experiences in short videos & try my best to share my learning with others.

[@dailyrider2975]

If you look at the 70s- 80s car fires vs today there has been a huge drop in car fires, especially if you figure how many more cars there are. So why was no one FREAKING out in the past about car fires? Media.

[@jamesdubben3687]

Great discussion, thanks

[@pault1289]

This was excellent, exactly the quality content that I love and appreciate from Fully Charged!! 👏

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

46:52 Even if these fires are being caused by the scrapyard using forklifts, that's a big problem. Scrapyards are a firefighters nightmare. EV batteries should probably have their own waste stream instead of going to a standard wrecking yard. More work needs to be done in the area of lithium battery disposal.

[@waqasahmed939]

I have an eBike though it uses Li-Go batteries which are ridiculously safe. You can send them on a plane easily. I got it imported from Murica via Bike Friday Alternatively, you need to spend at least £1500 on a new ebike to get a safe one. The stuff that costs £300 is incredibly suspect. I wouldn't want an escooter at such a price too however the UK government is basically forcing people to buy the cheaper, rubbish ones that don't have any quality control Given escooters are banned aside from ride sharing schemes, and you risk them being confiscated, it's meant that people with the means to buy a decent scooter end up buying cheap ones that are a fire hazard as there's a chance the police will seize it That has also meant that various train operators have banned escooters too. Escooters would make an excellent last mile vehicle, but due to government inaction, and people obviously wanting them, even people with means end up buying the cheaper stuff if they want it Personally, the fire risk of the cheap ones is too much of a risk. But they could ensure that only escooters purchased from approved suppliers would be allowed.

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

29:56 It's not hard to get a lithium ion battery into thermal runaway. A puncture or improper protection/charging circuit can do it easily.

[@hcw199]

Kryton you can try to debunk the ev fires as much as you like but most people wont risk charging an ev car in the garage when their family are sleeping upstairs... A thermal runaway would be devastating!

[@timconder4909]

I agree, cheaply built electric “vehicles” like these low cost toy scooters, skateboards, hoverboards and bicycles are accidents waiting to happen. Yet I see them EVERYWHERE here in California. I’ve seen them burning on KZbin everyday, but all I see them do everyday in real life is zip young people all over the place! Traffic does not slow them. Sidewalks and bike trails cut their commutes down significantly. There’s a KID around here that regularly smokes brand new muscle cars off traffic lights on a spindly electric mountain bike. Short pants. T-shirt. BMX helmet. Young people (as far as I can tell) seem to be adopting these things willy nilly. They are easily storable and chargeable in any domicile so… MAKE THEM SAFE. INSPECT THEM. MAKE MANUFACTURERS ACCOUNTABLE. TRAIN CONSUMERS ON CARE, OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE. Love this channel! Thanks guys!🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟

[@joschmoyo4532]

Lol. The cat is out of the bag. All firefighters are now briefed on the hazards of EV fires. The local fire captain told me most of their call outs now are caused by lithium batteries during charging. From cordless drills to ev bikes etc. But cars are the worst and they can ignite at any random time. A Tesla recently caught fire at Sydney airport car park. Sorry but MGUY is right. Its an unfolding liability nightmare.

[@robbiepmusic]

It's the toxic vapour that will kill

[@davidcottrell570]

You know, I understand the concern about people scared of their cars catching fire, but the real worry is about what happens when a gas tank explodes and the potential for loss of life if you can’t get out in time. Perhaps, though, there is the bigger issue of climate change and its contribution to things like forest fires and extreme weather events that result in far greater destruction than any individual 2 ton chunk of metal. Here we are in mid May, and a small city in northern Alberta had to be evacuated because of a large forest fire. Maybe the pollution from refining so much oil is the bigger problem here. Battery technology is moving forward in leaps and bounds. In ten years times will this be an issue, or just another canard for the oil industry to mislead us with? Just a thought.

[@frankcoffey]

I don't really mind all the misinformation about EVs it's keeping demand and prices regulated. A Tesla Model Y was more than $20,000 more expensive in 2022 and I saved that much money by waiting until 2023 to buy one and I got the $7,500 tax credit also. If you want an EV at a price you can afford be careful who you complain about, those folks are doing you a favor.

[@AllInVehicleInspections]

Having worked machinery, any mechanical stuff can catch fire if it gets hot enough and has something to burn next to it. Ice vehicles catch fire but it's rarely the storage, same as ev. But many similarities are there, accidents, electric, hot components, and of course arson etc. It's important on both sides making comparisons that actual vehicle fires are rare, but lack of maintenance, dodgy repairs, poor modifications, and, of course, rodents! All of these come with old age, and most EV vehicles have got all this to come.

[@slowercuber7767]

Awesome info. Thanks.

[@granadakimj]

Remember who benefits from all those negetive stories... ;)

[@KyleErb]

It is a bit funny that someone on KZbin won’t talk to anyone that says “A person on KZbin said.” I know EVs don’t start on fire so I’m glad there’s a link to her work. I want to use it.

[@viplav76]

Long time admirer & viewer. It would be great to see different voices, different opinions. To further our come cause for a cleaner future.

[@tonyfoulkes9289]

Brilliant,thank you for presentation and stats.

[@davidl.howser9707]

Nice Interview ! Good Work !

[@MrFreesearcher]

Tesla do a great job in developing batteries and the casing that houses them to reduce the risk of fire, however they do catch fire. Envision also do well for Nissan. But BYD, along with Electric bikes and scooters seem about as safe as a stick of dynamite. With videos in the numbers on bikes and scooters going up, BYD have a wonderful mix of either going up in smoke, or large parts of the car dropping off. I recently watched a video covering the safety of Lithium Ion batteries, and the two things that is clear, the highly toxic fumes and smoke given off equate to a typical ICE car having done 40k miles, and there is currently no practical method for fire fighters to extinguish Lithium Ion battery fires. What's that about water and electricity should never mix?

[@lkrnpk]

They tell me BYD mostly have issues with their hybrids... At least there should be fair amount of BYDs driving around in Australia and I have not seen one on fire from there

[@wajopek2679]

I posted a comment for people to look a Prof. Christiansens lecture on battery fires and it got deleted.

[@vincewhite5087]

NFPA in USA showed thousands of of car fires each year for decades

[@VedaSay]

This was excellent talk. Will visit the website mentioned and see if there is opportunity I can volunteer for the effort. One bit, there were lots of figures/numbers/statistics discussed. Please edit the video to include these as visual graphs/pics. am assuming the website already has most of this. Thank you for this excellent effort.

[@dwftube]

I think we need more of what Emma is trying to do - get the detail. It's not helpful to anyone to just blame anything with a battery for fires, we need to get as much data as possible so we can identify where the problems really are. It does seem that smaller batteries are more prone, but we need to know if this is because they are used in cheaper products and so are of lower quality. or are they of a particular type? Would there be as many electric bike fires if the batteries in electric bikes were of the same type and quality used by the likes of Tesla/Mercedes/BMW etc. Cheap electrical anything has always been more prone to fire - wall warts and phone chargers for instance.

[@robertwhite3503]

A modern car battery will have a BMS (battery management system) to ensure the battery is the correct temperature for charging or usage. This implies a cooling system and discharging the battery to raise the temperature. This would be too expensive on smaller systems.

[@thisisnumber0]

Some very eminent people have a KZbin presence. And she shuts them down. Delusions of adequacy on display here.

[@ricardo1e93]

People seem to have forgot when Samsungs and Toshibas devices with batteries used to catch fire. I owned both brands and never had any battery related issue.

[@MrAdopado]

Indeed ... there was a period when airlines wouldn't allow laptops and phones on planes!

[@stephensharp975]

I'm too busy putting out fires on my two EVs to comment on here.....

[@lotusgroup123]

No mention of the two electric buses that burnt out in London recently (Wimbledon and Woolwich) on two consecutive days?

[@steve_787]

They did say at the end about doing one on buses and trucks. Have the causes of the bus fires been established yet or a report issued? If not then there's not a lot to talk about on them 🤷‍♂

[@lotusgroup123]

@@steve_787Not seen any reports yet following these incidents, aside from all examples of those models being withdrawn from service while the investigation takes place.

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

Probably recorded before they happened (one was a hybrid).

[@Knott1701]

or mention of the 240 ICE bus fires over the last 5 years: www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022

[@steve_787]

@@lotusgroup123 same thing happened in 2022. EV buses withdrawn from service as a precaution following a fire at a depo. You could argue this is safer than diesel buses which catch fire but then aren't suspended from service while they work out the issue/cause? From the London gov website in 2022 there were 56 bus/coach fires. 39 diesel/biofuel, 14 hybrid, 2 unknown and 1 EV. Willing to bet not one diesel bus was taken off the road as a precaution. No one cares if any vehicle catches fire unless it's electric. Just doesn't make any sense why people are so bothered. Odd statistic, in 2019/20 there were 182 fires caused by extractor fans vs 186 deep fat fryers, do people care about those? Doubt it. BUT if the news started to report every other day that an extractor fan was catching fire then you'd have people removing them, turning them off and banging on about how dangerous they are.

[@rickbean2170]

Is there any data available that supports or disproves the growing MSM theory that EV Insurance claims are responsible for the huge hike in UK Car insurance? If untrue this needs to be critally challenged

[@GeorgeRow]

Where can we find data for combustion car fires?

[@t1n4444]

Why not try Google?

[@Knott1701]

Norway has published stats but i don't know enough Norwegian to find a source link but I do have a link to UK bus fires: www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022

[@GeorgeRow]

After a bit of searching I found statistics for 2023/24 that suggested that there had been over 10,000 vehicle fires in England that had an “accidental“ cause. Another 6,000- 7,000 vehicle fires were the result of arson. England has 25m cars on its roads. So about 1/40 of the global fleet. So if (as explained in the video) there have been 400 verified EV fires ever about 10 of them occurred in England. I got these numbers from a spreadsheet downloadable from: www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/fire-statistics-data-tables#non-dwelling-fires-attended

[@MrAdopado]

At the web site referred to near the beginning of the discussion.

[@geomacaulay]

In the last few days BYD have already announced they are to move away from pouch cells in favour of prismatic cells for safety.

[@bernardhilton3527]

Useful video, many thanks.

[@knowledgebyte]

My brother who should know better, tells me that insurance is going through the roof on EV’s, because they have to scrap EV’s if they’re in an accident, as no one is qualified to work on them!? So many myths being spread. That must be a good sign. Sounds a lot like push-back from the whole motoring industry and supporters of big oil. Just think, what will happen to all the garages and the supply chain for combustion engines.? The industry is huge. No wonder Toyota has held back and pushed hybrids. The whole ICE business and dealerships will implode, especially if they go direct to market, like Tesla have done.

[@John.0z]

Considering how buyers have been treated by the ICE car, truck and bus industry... I will not be shedding any tears as the bad ones go under. And if there is any justice in this world, it is the bad ones that will go under first.

[@ohyesitsme]

@@John.0z Hope none of your family or friends and relatives work for one of those companies or suppliers that you couldn't care less about.

[@chow-chihuang4903]

Part of the reason for insurance being higher on EVs is the greater likelihood of getting into scrapes the first year or two of ownership. Another is some companies won’t allow any third party components, so repairs cost more and take longer. To the first point, insurance companies think it’s due to the greater acceleration and linear response of acceleration to accelerator pedal input. A driver of a car with a 0-60mph of under 6s is more likely to get into scrapes than the same driver in a car with a 0-60 of 9s. Drivers moving from an ICEV are going to accelerate faster than they intended until they get used to using the accelerator pedal more gently. Their records show this takes about the first two years of ownership of an EV. The funny things is they have found a similar effect of the latter in households with both BEV and ICEV as they switch between them, but to a lesser degree. The above are reasons Hertz gave for why they’re reducing the number of Tesla EVs in their fleet. They attribute the above as reasons for the higher costs of maintenance due to them getting into more than twice as many collisions and the higher cost and longer lead time of repairing the resulting damage. I expect them to offer BEVs with more tame acceleration.

[@knowledgebyte]

@@chow-chihuang4903 that’s a valid point. It has taken me awhile to tame the throttle. Nothing much can take on a Tesla. They are incredibly quick cars. Faster than anything I have ever owned. And very, very quick off the mark. Most drivers though, drive for efficiency. And know not to be tempted to take on the flame throwers.

[@chow-chihuang4903]

@@knowledgebyte Since modern accelerator pedals are digital input devices, manufacturers could reduce the likelihood of unintended fast acceleration by programming them to offer more fine control at first, with more aggressive acceleration reserved for the furthest extent of travel. But marketing usually makes them aggressive to give the impression of power etc. Each time I get into a different car, I take time to learn how it responds to pedal and steering inputs. Even so, some cars make delicate maneuvers, like navigating tight parking garages, difficult. I can see how high-powered cars, EV or ICE, get into fender benders more often.

[@rahulvithani9370]

Any views on the Mercedes Fire in Korea, was it an LFP battery which is known for not having a thermal runaway? South Korea is spooked by that incident and a Kia EV6 fire following that. Please give your thoughts.

[@rbdogwood]

A useful discussion and thank-you for accepting that fires can happen in any vehicle and it has to be dealt with according to type, even if it is 1 in 10,000.

[@thevideoark]

Very interesting again. Thanks everybody. Can anyone help re “Liking” the podcasts on IOS which is how I generally listen to this show. TIA.

[@jamesphillips2285]

27:00 The Prius uses NiMH batteries. They can go into thermal runaway at the end of charge because the voltage drops once the battery is fully charged. The charger must not have been monitoring the battery temperature either.

[@MrAdopado]

I don't understand "the voltage drops once the battery is fully charged" ... that is the point at which the batteries within the pack are at their highest voltage surely? (BTW I am reading that some Prius models have NiMH some have lithium ion and some have a combination of both.)

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@MrAdopado I don't understand the exact mechanism: but it means that the current goes UP instead of DOWN at the end of charge. This has the side-effect that you can not charge two NiMH batteries in parallel (like you can with Li-ion). Only the Plug-in Hybrid Priuses had LI-ion. Toyota and Panasonic were sued over the development of the electric RAV4 for using NiMH cells. See the "Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries" article on Wikipedia for details. Short version: GM sold the EV-1 battery patents to an oil company, who then used them to delay the electric car by 20 years.

[@steveyoung8376]

I remember chatitng to some local firefighters in cornwall in 2012 do you know what to do in the event of an EV fire and he said no!! are you about to start training, no.

[@lenimbery7038]

I watched a video with a fire expert talking to first responders and they basically said if it’s an ev fire they stay away and let it burn out and maybe just try to protect the surrounding area

[@matthewweinle8639]

What make us RC Model flyers "laugh" is that all the lessons and awarenes we gained back in the late 90's early 00's regarding charging and use of lithium ion batteries seems to have been com;pletely ignored by questionable importers of E-Bikes and scooters.

[@connclissmann6514]

This brings up the general "confounding factors" in statistics. Simplistically, say a person takes a paracetamol and is later run down by a bus. While their death is logically caused by the accident with the bus, the fact that they were on medication must be reported to the medicines regulatory body, in case the medication has an influence on the accident. If an EV goes on fire, it need not have been the battery which initiated the fire.

[@djtaylorutube]

Good point! We need to see the facts on EV fires and their relationship to Paracetamol! 😁

[@goingoutotheparty1]

It's really amazing how you heroes jet around the globe saving the climate for us ebikers we thank you sincerely 😂

[@evilutionltd]

It makes me laugh how Australians shorten so many things. Bushy, Firey, Arvo, Ambo, Sanga, Bottle-o, Daks (somehow trousers) etc.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

Daks...trackie daks...tracksuit pants. We shortened the shortened