the Calvinistic heresy of predestination (by R. Hammerud)

I explain Calvin's view of predestination and argue that his interpretation of predestination is heretical.

[@junkerjorg6310]

I havent heard any counter arguments...

[@thinketernal260]

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." Revelation 13:8

[@Jammaster1972]

To understand this verse, you must take it in the context of Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you [Satan] and the woman, and between your seed [Satan's rebellious followers] and her Seed [followers of righteousness by faith in the promise of a savior]; He [Christ] shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” Therefore in Revelation 13:8 all who dwell on the earth will worship him (Satan), those of his seed who by free will and acceptance choose to do so and have rejected the saving knowledge of the truth of Christ. God's foreknowledge, does not mean He fore-caused a person's name to be blotted out of the Book of Life. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world simply because God foreknew the cost of free will could or would be rebellion, and the solution of redemption could or would only be through the sacrifice of the Lamb. God's foreknowledge of rebellion does not mean He fore-caused it, hence were that true, then He would be the author of sin, rebellion and evil. Genesis 1:31 "31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good."

[@tylerj3088]

Revelation will be taking place in the last day, notice this passage says FROM the foundation of the world… this does NOT say BEFORE. The book of life is a physical book that is written. So it is done over a period of time. Remember the passage that says names will be removed from the book of life?

[@thinketernal260]

@@tylerj3088 Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the worlds will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again. Revelation 17:8 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. Ephesians 1:4

[@grandconjunct]

1). “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; BUT ALSO AT HIS OWN PLEASURE ARRANGED IT”. [Calvin, Institutes 3:23 :7] 2). By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms , but SOME ARE PREORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE , OTHERS TO ETERNAL DAMNATION ; and , accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of these ends, we say that HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINED TO LIFE OR DEATH . John Calvin the Institues 3.21.5 3). * Here is audio of calvinist James white admitting in Calvinism God decrees and pre-determined every child molestation > kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6W0XquKd7WMjM0

[@tylerj3088]

And if you follow those points you are following a man not God’s word. Calvin’s points here are not biblical…

[@grandconjunct]

Calvinism = Evil , 1 Tim 4:4 , 1 John 2:16 , Jer 32:35 , 1 John 1:5

[@tylerj3088]

@@grandconjunct completely agree.. anything not biblical is a lie form the devil…

[@HegemonicMarxism]

Doesn't this view contradict the doctrine of free will and diminishes the weight of moral responsibility, since anyone who will be saved was predestined while anyone who will be condemned was created with no opportunity for redemption? And doesn't this also diminish the sacrifice of Christ as well?

[@grandconjunct]

@@HegemonicMarxism Of course , Calvinism is from the pit , not from the bible . The bible clearly teaches Freewill ( Libertarian freewill the only type there is ) . 1 Cor 7:37 (KJV) 37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having NO NECESSITY , but has POWER OVER HIS OWN WILL. * if humans were exhaustively Determined then everything they do , say , sin or think wold be Necessitated ( Determined ) Yet we are not determined but have power over our own will. The bible rejects the pagan/Gnostic presupposition of necessitarianism (Exhaustive Pre-Determinism ) The bible could not have confirmed in clearer language libertarian freewill that it does here. * Here is the next crystal clear freewill verse in bible. * 1 Cor 10:13 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide THE WAY OF ESCAPE also , so that you will be able to endure it. A way of escape ? that entails libertarian freewill , but determinism ( = no freewill ) entails NO way of escape from every choice including evil . Again another clear Libertarian freewill passage.

[@werkzeugmann6224]

Belief in predestination can easily breed egotistical prejudice and social arrogance! Why not just be racist...

[@timffoster]

what a belief may or may not breed in its adherents is unrelated to its truth value.

[@GertAllen]

​@@timffoster the definition of heresy is an "opinion", a belief that may or may not be true but that presents itself as an obstinate schismatic focus that destroys the Church from begin. It is good and true to not want to sin, but pelagianism is a heresy in that it turns the Church into a weird purity spiral and obsession with purity in a judaizing manner

[@marceloaraujo6108]

That gentleman needs to read the Bible.

[@tylerj3088]

We all need to..

[@marceloaraujo6108]

@@tylerj3088 I meant that he wouldn’t be speaking so much nonsense if he did read the Bible.

[@tylerj3088]

@@marceloaraujo6108 I think it’s you who needs to go read the Bible in context. Predestination is never referred to in the Bible as God picking before hand who will and won’t be saved… Predestined is talking about a destination or plan being predetermined for those that meet the condition. The two times predestination is talked about it is talking about believers.

[@tylerj3088]

Meaning believers are predestined for “X” So once you are a believer there is something predetermined for you.

[@marceloaraujo6108]

@@tylerj3088 I don’t argue with fools, sir.

[@junkerjorg6310]

😂😂😂 do you even know what a heresy is?

[@Tater2]

(cough) Romans 9:15,16 Ephesians 1:9-12 Romans 9:11 John 1:12-12 Mark 13:20 Revelation 13:8 Revelation 17:8 Romans 10:20 1 Corinthians 1:27-28 I find it interesting that you and others choose to completely ignore these verses from Scripture. There's a lot more I could have listed...

[@tylerj3088]

(Cough) you haven’t made any new talking point or proof texts… These passages don’t prove what you’d like them to, but when you approach these passages with a preconceived assumption you can make them say what you’d like. You can make the Bible say many things that aren’t so. You must look at context and use proper biblical hermeneutics… ”For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭15‬-‭16‬ ‭ This says nothing about God hand picking people for salvation. This actually says nothing about salvation nor is it talking about it. You like other Calvinist are attempting to make this say something it does not. What is the condition for salvation? Then if you wanted to use this text for what it is explaining, when does God show these things? What is the condition? ”having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.“ ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭9‬-‭12‬ Who is being talked about and to here in this passage? Those in Christ. What about those in Christ? The plan God has predetermined for them who are found in Christ. What is the condition for being found in Christ? Again you are attempting to make a passage say what it doesn’t. ”(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭11‬ ‭ What is this passage dealing with? A promise, election for service. This passage is not talking about salvation or God predetermining anyone’s salvation. This is talking about God’s purpose being done. ”But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:“ ‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬ ‭ What is this passage talking about? The condition for becoming a son of God, believing. ”And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.“ ‭‭Mark‬ ‭13‬:‭20‬ ‭ What is this talking about? The plan God has for the elect, who are the elect? Those found in Christ, what is the condition for being found in Christ? You starting to see a pattern yet? I could go on and on. You are taking these passages out of context to try and make them say what you think they say. Nobody has to ignore these verses they just have to understand them before putting on the Calvinist lens…

[@Tater2]

@@tylerj3088 The Reformed view puts God as the center. You are looking at these verses with an Arminian lens. Tell me, what is more arrogant? Saying that God chose me, and undeserving sinner, and changed my heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, or, I chose God out of my own power and ability, and see the Gospel for what it truly is, unlike these lost fools around me who still don't get it? Arminianism lifts up mankind higher than what we truly are. We as Christians were dead in our trespasses and sins and were unable to choose Christ on our own, and the lost still are. God is omniscient and omnipotent, of course I'm sure that you agree with this. However, if He already knows who will be saved and who won't be saved, does that not mean that He has chosen their fates? How can He know but not decide? Is He not completely in control? Saying that we choose our salvation is a contradiction of God's very nature and the attributes associated with it.

[@tylerj3088]

@@Tater2 yeah see you are seeing everything from a Calvinistic lens. I am not seeing things from an Arminian lens because that’s not what I am.. it’s not a battle between Arminian and Calvinism, those are not the only two options but you are so educated into that battle and for one side that is the way you thing. I take the Bible for what it says not out my own man made interpretation on it. From what I see in the Bible God has provided a way for ALL to be saved. ALL means all. You can’t change that. God choose to save every single person. What is the condition? We are to believe and trust in that. Calvinism takes and distorts the gospel. Saying God determines who will and won’t be saved long before they even entered the world. That is a different gospel that Paul warns us about. We are told how to be found in Christ. There is a condition. That condition is not be picked by God before the foundation of the world. It is you that needs to go study more and take God’s word for what it says and not try and take man’s commentary over that. Now if you wrestle with how God can have foreknowledge and not be the one determining everything then it is you who is limiting God. God in His sovereignty decides how he will exercise that. He chose to make free beings so that true love can take place. God can know all things and not be the one causing it all to happen. That may be hard for you to understand but so are many things that are out of this world. What do you think is more amazing? A programmer creating a video game and every single action that takes place in it, then writing a book about every single detail and what will take place. Is that such a feat? OR a programmer creating a video game with an open world with everything that interacts in that world free to decide what happens, then that programmer writes a book and tells you every single thing that took place in the lifespan of that game but did not program those actions to take place. I know which one shows more of how amazing our God is if you believe in the God of the Bible… the god of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible. Plain and simple. God is completely in control and He can choose to exercise that control however He wants… tell me why would one have to pray “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” if His will is always being done on earth? It’s not, our will is being done, the devils will is being done. God chooses to have true love and in having that He made us free beings. Some argue that the gospel is not sufficient to enable the lost to believe without the work of the Holy Spirit. I argue the gospel is always sufficient because IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. ”For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.“ ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭ What is God’s will? That all would be saved… Then you might say “well then why aren’t all men saved are you saying God can’t save everyone if he wanted to?” The atonement for all has already been paid. God sent the good news to all humanity… what is the condition? Do you know the gospel? The condition: ”But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭8‬-‭15‬ ‭ God seeks after us first, not the other way around. God sent the way for all, with a condition and we are given the ability to exercise what is required to meet that condition…

[@Tater2]

@@tylerj3088 I am not seeing things through a Calvinistic lens, I simply agree with Calvin's beliefs concerning predestination, among other truths of Scripture. Also, the word "all" in that context does not refer to every person that has ever lived. It refers to all types of people from all kinds of different backgrounds. Another thing, how do you explain Pharoah from the story of Moses and even Judas? God created both of them to die and go to hell. If Judas never betrayed Christ, then He wouldn't have died as the perfect Sacrifice and we would not have a way to eternal life in heaven. God said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." in Romans 9:13. Romans 9:19-24 "You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

[@tylerj3088]

@@Tater2 which means you are seeing things through a Calvinistic lens. Calvin did not the interpretation correct. You are proving that even more so now that you say you agree with him about predestination… predestination is mentioned twice and it is never referring to salvation. More so the plan God had determined before hand for those who would be found in Christ. Now you want to go on to argue other points you obviously are not able to take in context because you are looking at them with the Calvinistic lens. We are told pharaoh hardened his own heart first then God hardened his heart which was just strengthening that resolve… this again is not speaking about salvation… God did not choose for pharaoh or Judas to perform these acts but He used their bad for good. Gods will is ultimately being worked out even despite man’s free will that may sometimes be against it. I love how you totally disregarded everything I said and just tried to slap on more Calvinistic talking points… Once again Jacob and Esau story was not talking about salvation at all and you need to go define the terms and words you are looking at with context. We are also told to hate our parents, children, many things, do you know what that is speaking about? Now if you go dive deeper into the context and message behind these passages without the lens you wear you can see for yourself. Are you saying it’s the molders fault for the clay being marred? Interesting position you would hold about God. You act as if there is only one interpretation on passages. I knew you would make that argument about the word ALL there. All means all, all people, yup… I can give dozens of more passages where God talks about coming for all men if you’d like. You’ll still argue the Calvinistic point though and not take God’s word for what it says… shame.

[@rev.waynet.oleary7387]

Yawn......

[@tylerj3088]

What an educated reply, doesn’t make me think I’ll be getting anything of interest or intellect from any of your videos…