The CELEBRITY BOOM in WOMBS FOR RENT: The Dark World of Commercial Surrogacy

[@aisherwasher6959]

I can't imagine being "too busy" to be pregnant but somehow having the bandwidth to raise a child...

[@productioninquiry8937]

You can outsource childcare for a child once it's born. You can't outsource childcare for the fetus you're physically carrying.

[@joebrookesPatch]

Pregnancy looks quite unpleasant, I'd imagine that's the real reason.

[@productioninquiry8937]

@Joe Brookes Pregnancy derails your career. Childless women make more money, sometimes as much as men.

[@CasterTrash]

@@productioninquiry8937 Lucy Liu not going to drop off the earth if she's not in any significant films for a little bit, I'd imagine it's more down to pregnancy, I don't blame her, she's in her mid 50's

[@productioninquiry8937]

@CasterTrash I wasn't talking about Lucy Liu specifically. Google the data. Childless women earn more. Pregnancy often causes a financial setback in womens' careers, it's why women are paid less than men because employers anticipate maternity leave and child rearing.

[@justhearmeout3959]

I think there's also a deeper issue here that transcends political lines. Children, generally, aren't really thought of as full people. Their wants and needs arent considered by most parents. Rather, most parents have an idea in their minds of what their child wants and needs, and that certainly goes well, when the two align. But when it differs, most parents cant adjust. This is why we see things like siblings being seperated. The parents don't want to deal with the conflict of having them together, or whatever other reasons, like convenience, they may have for keeping them seperate. We really need to normalize listening to children, and being willing to put their needs first, when possible.

[@juanmejiagomez5514]

I’ve had similar thoughts when I hear some conservatives talk about home schooling. It makes sense to want to educate your child with similar values as yours, but some of them talk as if they are trying to indoctrinate their children, as if them thinking differently from the parents were a mistake that must be prevented at all costs. When I hear this stuff all that comes to my mind is “bro, your children are their own people, not an extension of yourself. Do guide them, but also let them experience the world and think for themselves”

[@dorje9580]

When have they been full people and not tabula rasa for people to project their ideology on? Then what would be the benefit, biologically, for a male to stay with a child in a LONGTERM nuclear family if there is no proliferation other than his own genes? I forgot where in the symposium Diodica said this but the child is an edxtension of ego, hence it is beautiful bot because of it's own nature.

[@juanmejiagomez5514]

@@dorje9580 I mean, if you only care about yourself it makes sense, hell, even being a teacher/mentor could in a way make you a “parent” this way, but I think it’s wrong to forcibly make your child a copy of you. If they want to be like you that’s fine, and as a parent, especially when they’re young, you should impose certain limits/rules to ensure they grow up as well adjusted individuals, but anything beyond that just sounds like indoctrination to me. Also don’t underestimate genes, because personality and psychological traits are all inheritable

[@PBMarl]

​​@@dorje9580 people who think like you, should never procreate, yikes. No empathy, just selfishness. Poor child.

[@MB-yl9hm]

This is my thought exactly regarding the issue of abortion. The crux of the issue in the mainstream discourse about it is that some people don't think the child in the womb is an actual child that deserves basic human rights. I don't know if it's always been this way, but it seems like most people who are candidates for being parents are so incredibly narcissistic. Whether it's what's going on with surrogacy and IVF where people feel they are owed a biological child regardless of the constraints of reality that maybe are there for the well being of any potential child in the first place, or what's going on with parent's trying to use their child as a political pawn via "trans kids" or bringing their very young children to testify at rallies.

[@lubnaabdulrehman4431]

This could literally turn into the handmaid’s tale where the rich and wealthy women use poor vulnerable women to give birth to their children in order to feed their own families. Sad how liberal western society mock traditional people , however they’ve created their own version of cult like behavior by worshipping their careers and “dreams”.

[@thunderfuckedangel]

literally what I thought omfg

[@jordinometry1589]

There is nothing liberal about these people. Kim Kardashian is a conservative and most celebrities are capitalist conservatives that parade around like liberals because it’s better for their careers

[@noeaeon]

@@jordinometry1589 the hyper individualistic nature of liberalism as a philosophy is not just compatible with capitalism, it thrives on capitalism. Being open to others ideas is one definition of liberal but is not really the crucial definition

[@Feliciations]

It already is the Handmaid's Tale. We have arrived.

[@taryne2302]

I'm sorry but is everyone referring to the same Handmaids Tale? That was based on stripping women's rights to the point of dehumanization. If anything the "traditional family" mindset ideology was radicalized by the extremists religion portrayed in the book. Those women were not paid for their services, they were forced and undoubtedly oppressed. I understand that this is a serious topic, and I'm still learning about it but let's not mix apples and oranges. This is about Americas capatilist structure and though I can't say I fully agree with monetizing surrogacy, atleast these women are making that choice. I think it CAN be a very generous and selfless process for those who can not carry children for whatever reason or struggle with fertility.

[@wd3987]

A lot of surogate babies were abandoned in Ukraine. Some couples broke up, others changed their mind,and others didnt like the way the kid came out. Super messed up

[@Darth_Bateman]

JESUS FUCKING CHRI- . . . . .that kid is gonna be a victim of sex trafficking in Russia the MOMENT they turn 14. -_-. . . . .

[@Reticence9zen924]

There was a case in Thailand in which the Aussie parents asked the mother to abort a disabled child and she refused so there was a legal limbo for that baby.

[@raptoress6131]

@@Reticence9zen924 That would likely be a late-term abortion... A horrifying thought to be pressured into that, because the baby isn't what the customer wanted.

[@ilonat8373]

It's not a lot...Stop being so dramatic

[@cvzdez]

I will either there is a commodification of children. I can have his children because it fits my esthetics. I can make money off of them that could be sponsors for LGBT model brands represent a group to make money from a girl it's weird. There's always been a commodification of children but with social media and this sense of it's OK to see kids in certain dynamics now is becoming. More Rampant

[@aimbotnikki6301]

I wasn’t adopted but I was “adopted” by my step mother. I put it in quotations because that’s essentially what it was. My dad and her dated from the time I was age 3, she was told she would never have kids and had many many miscarriages (before I came into the picture) she was the best mother ever to me, she treated me like her own daughter and I called her mommy. (My dad and her had full custody of me and I only would see my biological mother on the weekend so to me she was my mom and I believed that in my heart. Then when I was 5 a miracle happened and my baby sister was born. After that I was no longer wanted and casted aside not only by her but by her family also. The people that I once knew as my family no longer wanted me and purposely excluded me. She gave my dad an ultimatum and told him to give me to my mother full time or they would get a divorce. He tried marriage counseling, she just emotionally/physically abused me heavily to try and get me to leave too, she would punish me for no reason, not feed me, force me to watch my babysister be a child while I was not allowed anything fun. ALL SO I COULD LEAVE. Eventually it got so bad CPS was involved and they told my dad if he didn’t leave he would lose me. (My entire life I was devastated and I still am) the selfish part is I thought I was the only one affected but my little sister was heavily affected also recently she told me this “it was like everyday I would eat breakfast with my dad and sister and then one day they were gone and I went into your room and it was empty and I don’t understand and I repeat it everyday and it never ends) idk what my point was too writing this now I’m emotional all over again but like you said it was only about her and she never cared about me or my sister that was her baby. She just wanted me so she could say she was a mother not to actually be a mother.

[@Pomagranite167]

I'm really sorry you had to go through that and that really sucks. Rven ppl who have kids out of their own body sometimes treat their own children like shit. Many humans are just not fit to be parents.

[@ynat2198]

I'm sorry this happenedto both you and your sister. I work with a lot of families and i feel unequivocally that most people are not meant to be parents especially when things get difficult. A lot of people do not deserve to be parents and experience the love of a child. To them its not about the unconditional love its about material things such as image and claiming to be a parent but barely doing anything. Again I'm sorry this happened to you, i wish you both the best in life and love.

[@blazingstar9638]

I’m sorry that you had to go through that 😢 awful ❤ These people kidology used as celebrity examples had a strong percentage of narcissism . Maybe bc they’re celebrities, but then when I read your story, this woman seems like she may apply too 😞

[@sianavassileva403]

I just really hope you recover.. life can be so severe

[@divestfromdust]

From 3-5 you were a baby. She probably had resentment towards you and wasn't the best mom ever. Children are pure and see good in most people. She just didn't go out of her way to show up to the point a loyal child will see it. People don't change suddenly like that. That new baby just gave her the brave audacity to get you thrown out so she can play house with her new husband and new baby

[@raptoress6131]

My respect for Grimes was lost when she decided to rent another woman's womb, because she didn't like being pregnant and wanted to make more kids with Mr absent father to ~10 kids.

[@jasonhaven7170]

Not when she got with a neo-Nazi?

[@pikapi6993]

💯💯💯

[@chisomo8088]

I'm surprised you'd have any for her to begin with

[@Cateater123]

Womb renting is an historical practice tho

[@mmmmmmmmaria]

@@Cateater123 and that makes it ethical how?

[@stef4746]

For me the problem is rooted in the belief that the parents have a “right” to have a baby. In my opinion you don’t have a right to being a parent, it’s a gift, a responsibility you take on out of love. The child comes first, not you. If you cannot tailor your life around that (aka I didn’t want to stop working/ my husband and I couldn’t make our schedules coincide) then you’re not ready to be a parent.

[@Kaybye555]

Yessss They are blinded by their wants they don't consider these children being born

[@EmyN]

This 👏👏👏👏

[@PossibleBat]

Only women can make babies for a reason. Only those who women see fit for reproduction will experience parenthood. It’s not a right. Laws need to be put in place to protect women from all over the world, who are going to be exploited for this. Forced to carry pregnancies for rich people.

[@Nihilist_Waltz]

​@sadsheogre Ah yes, because women have immaculate judgment whenever it comes to deciding whom will parent the child. Casually ignores single motherhood rate.

[@joannasowinska6789]

Yes!

[@endlessteatime4733]

The sad truth is that having children usually isn't about the children but about the parents' wish for self-fulfilment

[@Killjoy_Mel]

Well, it's what life on earth is for all living creatures that self-multiply. It's all driven by the desire to survive, and you survive in a way if you carry on your genes. I get the desire for it, but I also get the desire for a lavish life, and sometimes you just can't have it. I can't fulfill my dream of becoming a billionair who has her every health need taken care of with lots of money and resource without resorting to some really unethical things. And some people cannot have a bio baby of their own without exploiting women. You either find a work-around that's more ethical, if less satisfying, or you just make your peace with it and move on.

[@SapphireTalksAboutStuff]

Is there something we haven't commercialized yet at this point ? Also, what happens if the child doesn't come as expected? What becomes of them? Are there any laws in place for situations like this? Those are actual human beings, not toys you can give back to a store and ask for a refund. This is so painfully dystopian, it's terrifying.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

No, capitalism touches every part of human life. As long as we have capitalism, everything will be commercialized. Laws around what happens when the child doesn't come out as expected differ by location. In Ukraine, there have been some reported cases of international intended parents who abandoned their surrogacy-born children (there's a whole documentary about one case), this often has to do with birth defects or heavy disabilities. There is sadly no legal mechanism to prosecute those parents for abandoning those kids in many countries. That is something that is sorely needed. I mean, it's not as if you have to raise the child if you don't want to if it comes out "wrong". They could still give the child up for adoption, legally, to give it a chance at a family. I've also seen a case of a surrogate (who posted on TikTok but I think isn't doing it anymore for legal reasons?) in the US where the intended parents never showed up to get the twins. So she is left raising them. That too needs a legal framework: If intended parents leave the children with the surrogate, they need to be forced to pay child support. If it is well regulated, surrogacy is not all that dystopian. It's a pretty normal part of human life and has been all throughout history. It's simply that nowadays, we have the option of gestational surrogacy. But traditional surrogacy has been a thing for thousands of years, and in countries where surrogacy is illegal it is something people still do, just without telling the government.

[@FuzzyKittenBoots]

The child usually becomes a news story in Europe and Australia for a week or two and then its forgotten about.

[@morgannyan2738]

@@TheYasmineFlower kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5mvnmmdYrGta7M

[@EmyN]

Yeah there needs to be heavy legal consequences if you decide to abandon your child, like having to pay child support and maybe a heavy fine

[@Indigazure]

Its dystopia to have laws that control populations and breeding in the first place

[@Unkuuu]

Something about able bodied women choosing surrogacy over carrying a child is depressing and dystopian, tbh. Especially, when the reason is not wanting to stop working….fyi you’re going to have to stop/cut back to actually raise the kid. It’s so cringey to hear a woman say she’ll chose motherhood out of what is essentially boredom and not desire. It’s it just seems disengaged from humanity. Also, just like prostitution, it will be ‘the poors’ who bear the physical and emotional brunt of this phenomenon. It’s giving Handmaidens Tale.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

The vast majority of people who choose to use surrogacy to have a child do so out of some sort of medical necessity. In the case of actors and models, a medical necessity may be having to preserve their bodies because those are how they make money. Handmaid's Tale was about a christofascist state that forced women to be raped, to be impregnated, to carry pregnancies and to give birth, and then forcefully separated them from those children. Not even commercial surrogacy works like that. Surrogates have to CONSENT to the process beforehand. There was no consent in The Handmaid's Tale.

[@verigumetin4291]

@@TheYasmineFlower she didn't equate it one to one.

[@Kaybye555]

​@@TheYasmineFlower not all surrogates consent. Just saying.. you seem very pressed about this. Have you gone through this process? Why do you defend it so much?

[@Unkuuu]

@@TheYasmineFlower lol preserving your body as a money maker is not a medical necessity, it’s not even a financial one. Get a gym membership or pastor surgeon. It’s vapid and anti-human to do surrogacy for non-medical reasons. Also you’re nuts if you think all surrogates consent, or at the very least, aren’t pushed in that direction due to financial lack. There is a reason why it’s rich women/families doing surrogacy and relatively poor women who are offering their bodies for use in this way. There are rich, fertile able bodied women who do not offer themselves for these services, even for family and friends. Why is that?

[@productioninquiry8937]

​@@Unkuuu The vast majority of financially constrained women of childbearing age are not surrogates. These women are consenting, not pushed.

[@beewest5704]

I do think it will become more " normal" & acceptable for most ppl to have a surrogate. Just a couple of years ago only celebrities could get plastic surgery now especially in the US many regular ppl are getting cosmetic surgery. I know 2 women who are doing surrogacy. One is a 32 year old women with 4 kids who loves being pregnant & now carries the babies of cancer survivors. The other is a 20 something year old woman with one son carrying a wealthy business women's child because she needs money to complete her studies& be able to raise her son. Surrogacy agencies are of the devil. There is alot of abuse of young girls going on & the prospective parents will never even know. If babies are born " ugly" or disabled or deemed unsuitable for the couple the kid may be dumped or even killed. They often work with government agencies so these kids births are concealed & no one really know what happens to them after they are born.

[@lightoffaithchristian4382]

poor women suffer the most from this.

[@EmmaGodLovesTruth95]

Its clearly shady and illuminati based. lots of room for abuse and crime. high ranking criminals already use “breeders,” basically slaves used just to bear children to be sacrificed to satan.

[@ethicalbunny]

It is still wrong!

[@Jewel_Screaming_Chango8387]

True I’d like more children so my son can have siblings but I don’t want to deal with the woman I’ve been open to looking for a surrogate for the last 12 yrs

[@iknowyouwanttofly]

​@@lightoffaithchristian4382 no the newborns suffer the most.

[@dmoneysdaughter]

one of my best friends is the product of his 64 year old widowed mother hiring a surrogate and sperm donor to create him and his brother. Surely 23 years ago, there was no oversight over surrogacy adoption whatsoever. It’s truly heartbreaking because she’s now in her late eighties and has dementia, doesn’t remember who her sons are, and lives in a senior home when my friend just graduated college, which she couldn’t attend. It’s even worse because we found out a few years back that she hid (or forgot about) an audio file from his biological father, who we now know lives only 30 minutes away but is refusing contact. we did a dna test that has found over 2 dozen half siblings all over the country! Luckily, a family from our school took him under their wing when we were in high school, but what if they hadn’t? It’s a miracle he’s as well adjusted as he is. It’s a seriously messed up situation and the world needs more people advocating for the wellbeing of children/good birthing intent. It’s very personal, but I agree with you that it’s vitally important. I don’t believe “normal” families exist, but I know my friend deserved better.

[@EmyN]

Can you adopt at 64 I wonder?

[@MsBrendalina]

Surrogacy agencies will sell a baby to whoever can pay for them. They don't care about the welfare of the child or the "parents" reason for wanting a baby The adoption & foster systems aren't perfect. But at least they have some standards in place and won't just hand a baby to anyone (at least thats true for ethical ones)

[@marolatv618]

Laws need to be enacted to prevent stories like your friend's. More planning should have been put forth before he was born.

[@dmoneysdaughter]

@@EmyN she did in Ohio/Kentucky 23 years ago somehow

[@dmoneysdaughter]

@@MsBrendalina it’s especially sad to me because the surrogacy mother and donor father have at least 3 children of her own (and had children before donating). I can’t fathom how they could’ve agreed to what they did.

[@jessecreegan9451]

This sounds eerily similar to the "babies for sale" during the great depression.

[@Reticence9zen924]

I didn't know that was common then. Selling unwanted babies while pregnant is common in Korea.

[@Terrapin47-s8y]

it seems child sacrifice has been a more recurring motif in human existence than we'd like to admit..

[@gummy5862]

@@Reticence9zen924 I think if the “seller” does due diligence in going through the legal processes to make sure the adopting family is safe, it doesn’t have to be such an evil thing.

[@jessecreegan9451]

@@gummy5862 I think the point that kidololy is making is that there is no no such thing as due diligence and legal process in thind wold countries and that this whole thing is exploitative and its coming from the elitist class that claim to care so deeply about the welfare of third world countries

[@helendancelot]

@@gummy5862 how is that ever possible..no one knows what happens behind doors and people can change when they have to look after a child

[@flafflingforfun]

My partner and I decided to not have kids at age 42. We really wanted to. We were both each others second marriage and we both really want kids. By the time we met and knew it was right, medically, it turned out pregnancy was not looking to be in my cards even with medical intervention. Which left us with surrogacy or adoption. Both things require a ton of money just to get in the door. It's pretty effed if you ask me because I think we'd be good parents. Just not wealthy parents. I know we made the right choice for us not to push it. I had a hysterectomy to fix my issues and its made me feel physically so much better. It's something I'll always wonder about though. I hope in the future we'll be able to adopt an older child.

[@stef4746]

It’s appalling how inaccessible adoption is.

[@LilSyl05]

@@stef4746 it's a double edged sword. Children need to be protected but at the same time they should be out in good family that can take care of them and that really what them . Accepting the first come could be dangerous

[@stef4746]

@@LilSyl05 100%, but there has to be ways in which we can make adoption less expensive. It’s in society’s best interest to allow children to be raised in good families.

[@LilSyl05]

@@stef4746 I'd like to hear your suggestions. I remember watching dr Phil the other talk with foster kids and their life was really sad. They were neglected as fuck. Imagine a person not wanting the child he fostered or adopted 😥

[@morgannyan2738]

Do you not know women lose their chances of fertility as they age?

[@Tabbyzee]

This is such an important topic. I was thrilled when you mentioned Mary Harrington’s book! Incredible read. Surrogacy is renting a woman, she becomes almost a slave to her contract, and her baby that has grown inside her, listened to her voice and the sound of her heart, is ripped away from her (look up the Primal Wound). The amount of crossover with human trafficking is disturbing to say the least. Children are not products to be bought and sold

[@vanillabeanlady]

Mary Harrington recently tweeted: "Surrogacy bakes mother-loss into a baby’s earliest experience - and inflicts this loss on a profoundly vulnerable infant, in the name of adult desire." And I think that really is correct. I think surrogacy is cruel unless it's done by someone close to the parents, who is going to stay a close figure in the child's life. To say that the woman who grew that baby in her body for 9 months and gave birth to them isn't their mother is just despicable.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

Mary Harrington is a TERF and allies herself with fascists like Tucker Carlson, Posie Parker, JK Rowling... I wouldn't take anything she tweets seriously.

[@vanillabeanlady]

I don't know anyone who was adopted, but I would I would imagine that losing their mothers early on does damage children who are adopted. I can't see how it wouldn't. However, I'm not morally against adoption because it isn't exploitation (hopefully). Generally mothers who adopt out their babies are unable to properly care for them, whereas commercial surrogates are being exploited for their wombs.

[@MK-hh1vo]

🙄

[@shanoysewelle8462]

​@@vanillabeanladyHow so exactly?

[@helendancelot]

@Macy I recommend the series..Long lost Families for many examples of separation via adoption. For many it is a life time of a gapping hole of loss in their heart

[@Constantin9va]

HAS NO ONE READ “THE GIVER” ?!?!?!This needs to become 100% illegal. No one is entitled to children. I am barren and I’ve made my peace with that. Now we have a class of workers and surrogate’s. It’s not just people dealing with infertility (not that that makes it better, but at least there are stakes) now people just can’t be bothered, kids are just accessories. This is so disgusting.

[@Iamhere829]

There should be less stigma around people not wanting children and also less stigma around not wanting biological children but wanting adoptive ones.. Or fostering.. Also, i didn't read the novel but I did watched 'the giver' and Brenton Thwaites is a great actor

[@humansolarian]

@@Iamhere829yes this is the root cause imo. If we didnt create a whole culture of “unwanted children”, some ppl wouldnt have turned out socialised into feeling “more connected” to a biological stranger over an infant/child from the system. Idk how exactly we could solve an age old way but maybe positive representations of adopted children in stories and movies could move the needle rather than always sharing the struggle side that other ppl might not want to sign up for.

[@Reticence9zen924]

I've seen a vile news story on YT of Georgian surrogates - a mother was forced to labour alone and someone slapped her uterus to get the baby out and she wasn't allowed to hold the baby to stop her bonding and the baby was left to cry until the parents arrive.

[@chisomo8088]

Saw this too! The doctor was so mean towards her and spoke to her like she had no right to the child, absolutely disgusting

[@Unkuuu]

That is incredibly messed up. That’s the ugly side the western media won’t show much of. The lack of natural bonding between mother and child. But they glamorize it as some great societal good that a woman can just conveniently schedule a surrogacy the same way she would a Pap smear. So disgusting

[@biblia843]

I saw that too and the newborn was in a corner by himself in a plastic incubator crying, and they said his parents were over in China and “too busy” to come to his birth and wouldn’t be able to come pick him up for SEVERAL MONTHS! The woman and the baby were both treated like objects, it was so sad.

[@7Bobby7]

I remember just about oxytocin and it's bonding qualities for people being a part of the process of giving birth as a ton of it is released during the process and it helps with forming that connection between the mother and child. Now I wonder what surrogacy means for this and how it impacts child abandonment in this whole thing.

[@productioninquiry8937]

It would have less impact than adoption in many cases.

[@moononthewindynight27]

People bond with adopted children or children born via Cesarean section just fine, so that won't be a problem. Also, women who go through natural birth can suffer from depression after it. It's a traumatic experience.

[@moononthewindynight27]

@@7773CLA I'm not downplaying it? Having large doeses of oxytocin is not a guarantee for bonding. It helps, but it's not the sole reason.

[@helendancelot]

@@moononthewindynight27 so women who go through natural birth can have depression.. so a cash strapped young woman carries an births a child for a pitiful amount of money and can end up life threateningly depressed... seems like a poor deal to me

[@moononthewindynight27]

@@helendancelot they consented to it, and there are women who deal with pregnancy different. She's probably tough if she decided to be a "carrier".

[@vbrown6445]

I'm not sure what this has to do with liberalism or feminism. Since the beginning of time, people with the most money/power/resources have seen the bodies of the poor as their property, to use and abuse at their will for their profit or pleasure.

[@productioninquiry8937]

Tru dat!

[@ojyochan]

I'm so glad you're talking about this. Selling women's bodies is horrifying.

[@valentinatomoriyn4056]

I would argue that motherhood wasn't a private venture in a lot of traditional cultures. It was always everyone's business. Especially when we lived in smaller communities. But now we live in that large urban community and have internet, so that's where it gets weird

[@productioninquiry8937]

Agreed. Celebs are leveraging their pregnancies for attention now. But mega stars have to disclose or go into hiding because the paparazzi will hunt them down.

[@irondragonmaiden]

Yep, motherhood was very tied to the family's economics and inheritance.

[@NextToToddliness]

This has caused many to cry for International Child Laws and strict regulations on Commercial Surrogacy. I totally missed the Baby Manji controversy back in 2008, but these really are untested waters, and people really shouldn't be playing with human lives like this.

[@Elyfairy]

If you think about it… 9 months of pregnancy plus dealing with post partum recovery is easily a year out of work. So the amount these celebrities are paying for surrogates is pennies. I make more with my job and am not destroying my perfect body. I would ask for at least a million dollars to surrogate.

[@productioninquiry8937]

And you'd never get it because someone would do it for less. LOL!

[@theblacklapinou]

⁠@@productioninquiry8937 exactly. Because surrogacy is based on the exploitation of marginalized women.

[@productioninquiry8937]

@@theblacklapinou Not always. If that was the case more non-white women would be gestational carriers. I would love to see studies on the income and education level of most gestational carriers.

[@theblacklapinou]

@@productioninquiry8937 sadly, the only studies on the topic I could find are based on “native” surrogate mothers located in the UK, USA, and Canada. A big majority of them are middle class christians. However, out of the 25’000 born to surrogate mothers in the united states (2008), only 1000 of them took place in the united states. The one article I read was based on interviews of a hundred of these one thousand woman, so 1/10th of 1/25th of a very specific sample. The surrogate industry is valued at 450 million dollars in india. (Sources: “Revisiting The Handmaid’s Tale: Feminist Theory Meets Empirical Research on Surrogate Mothers” -Karen Busby, -Delaney Vun (2010)) So, to me the problem is, those 24’000 international surrogate, how do we assume they are protected? Can an Indian woman sue the “parents” in the US if they change their mind during the surrogate pregnancy and can she force them to pay her? What if she miscarry, is she still compensated? How do we supervise the buying and selling of children and the renting of women’s bodies internationally? How are these women protected and supported?

[@productioninquiry8937]

@@theblacklapinou I only know about the US. I know less about international surrogacy.

[@fruitygarlic3601]

In an episode of Dubai Bling (yes, I love trash), some rich ladies spoke about the alienation of their husbands' expectation that they keep getting pregnant -- and having a surrogate to fill that role was a proposed solution. And I thought: not for the surrogate!

[@FuzzyKittenBoots]

... where can I watch this trash? I desperately need it in my life.

[@Natttttttttt]

What happened was one of the wives wanted to get a surrogate she’s originally from Britain but another woman said that’s looked down upon in the Middle East

[@Lakeslover1]

@@FuzzyKittenBoots That trash is on Netflix!

[@pistolen87]

It reminds me a bit of Mad Max: Fury Road, where some women are considered "breeders"

[@Kaybye555]

Women are already called by extreme leftists with the whole "gender" thing

[@morgannyan2738]

The left likes to call them Birthing people

[@Iamhere829]

​@@morgannyan2738birthing people is different from breeders tho? Birthing people includes women and intersex/other gender people who are giving birth? It's like getting offended at being called money earning people? Or care taking people?

[@Jen-Inspired]

This was very hard to watch. I see where Kid is coming from, but I think her viewpoint may be oversimplified by a few disgusting examples. Celebrities are a very tinny-tiny percentage of the global population and most people using gestational carriers are not doing it for the sake of vanity. Less than 10% of the world’s population earns $100k a year, which is the average cost of surrogacy. I’m quite older than the audience, and I may be biased because we have been trying for 7 yrs, and the journey is harrowing. I think there needs to be more regulation around this…part of the problem is that governments refuse to touch it…there are simply no laws around surrogacy in most countries…it’s neither legal nor illegal..just diy You’re right about one thing though. The children are never considered. Not even in a biological setting if you really think about it

[@Pomagranite167]

Having a child is always inherently selfish and vain. Very few ppl have a child thinking "i want my child to have a good life". They think "my child will give me a good life" if yiu did what was best for a chuld you'd never bring one into the world bc humanity is going to hell in a handbasket

[@laraveinberg5648]

@@Pomagranite167 Yes, that’s why parents take the massive risk of pregnancy, complications, lack of sleep, etc. and are ready to work 3 jobs and if everything else fails die for their kids as long as they can be safe and well. Sounds super selfish 😂

[@Jen-Inspired]

@@laraveinberg5648 however you put it, it's still selfish. Lol. We were not born for our own benefit, but for our parent's...but that's something I have accepted. As tough as life has been, I'm grateful for the family I came through and for the relationship I have with my mother and sister❤️...and I cannot wait to have that relationship with my future daughter. I think people with such hardline views againt procreation are just not realistic about the complexities of life🤷🏽‍♀️

[@laraveinberg5648]

@@Jen-Inspired I agree. If that is what we call selfish, then yes, it is. It’s selfish to stay alive, kill an animal so you can be fed, kill a plant for tools and to continue existing. It’s in the nature of things and clashes hard with the human condition (especially in modern times). But whether something selfish is inherently vain, wrong or harmful, I’d argue with OP about that! Hope you have the family you’re dreaming of 😊

[@schiffelers3944]

To me it is like a double edged sword. There are pro's and con's. The biggest con to me is the commercial aspect of this. As a gay man, who always also wanted to be a father I have been through the thought processes... in the end, because it is not just a happy accident - I thought it would be selfish. Looking at the state of the world, etc. Do I want to put another human being through all this crap, make them a wage-slave most likely, and so forth. Also keeping in mind LGBTI+ are like a natural equalizer in overpopulations, why go against that nature? Adoption was also an option, there are already plenty of children that need a loving, caring home. But it isn't all that easy.

[@Pomagranite167]

The only real pro: you get to have a baby. But do more babies really wanna be in this god fordaken worls? No. They dont. They keep coming bc we keep pumping them out. For ourselves. Having a baby is almost always for the birther, never for the child. It actually is that simple if u detach your emotional desire to have a baby.

[@razmiddle9410]

@@Pomagranite167 The babies don't want to be in the world? All of us are in the world, and every day that we choose to continue living is a day that we choose to be in the world. You're choosing to be in the world today because you're choosing to live.

[@laraveinberg5648]

@@Pomagranite167 As an ex-baby I love that I’m here thank you very much. Your nihilistic views are boring and show you are not very well read.

[@helendancelot]

I tend to agree

[@peachesandcream22]

@@razmiddle9410 you sound like a typical pro-life American Catholic

[@Sisi-ep3wn]

I'm kinda annoyed that apparently everything is now feminisms fault... How is commercial surrogacy a consequence of feminism? I genuinely didn't understand the argument that was supposedly made in this video?

[@lalywindland5764]

Exactly ! Without feminism, domestic violence and abuse would not be punished, no right to vote, no jobs, etc. I grew up in a patriarchal religious society and it was hellish...

[@voodoomagic90]

I don't understand why adoption is such a repulsive concept for these celebrities. 🙄😐

[@inolofatsenglekaba5026]

I'm childfree and I remember reading this comment on a childfree video: "children deserve better". This speaks to world in which children are born; the emotional, psychological and economic state of BOTH parents; communities of care and collective ethics. In essence, children deserve better and we as a species are mostly ill equipped to provide this. I know I sure as hell don't have the wherewithal to parent, hence childfree.

[@productioninquiry8937]

I am glad you spoke honestly about Kim's health issues while pregnant. Kim has said she would have stopped having kids after two, but Kanye wanted a larger family.

[@c.karnstein3299]

I cant quite put my finger on why, but essentially buying someone to use them (their body) is uncomfortable to me. But then again, I dont agree with paying for use of another person's body flat out. We like to think of ourselves in brains in vat, essentially so far apart from our physical bodies that we hardly have a connection to it - but in my opinion, our entire nevous system proves how much of an illusion this is. I do not agree with buying a person for sex acts, nor do I think there should be markets for body parts and organs or human slavery. It is very strange that people can essentially pay for an experience, that I feel for so many other life circumstances, people are told to accept it is not something they can ever have. It's part of the cards you are dealt. But with pregnancy, birthing and motherhood you can now purchase that experience? Seeing humans as a commodity for purchase like any other object on the supermarket shelf. Thanks for the food for thought

[@Kaybye555]

Exactly, just because we have the "comodity" to do something it doesn't mean we should. Society as a whole os becoming this empty mush of nastiness. Everyone is very selfish, they just want their needs met no matter the consequences

[@happytimeforall6059]

After our twins girls, we considered surrogacy. My pregnancy was very hard with a lot of bleeding/bed rest/medicines. But we decided not to go through. It feels transactional, like going shopping. Surrogacy is only for convenience.

[@productioninquiry8937]

Convenience for someone who already has children, sure. If you're childless with multiple miscarriages that's different.

[@iknowyouwanttofly]

No to the baby its the same.

[@Ineverusemychannel]

⁠@@productioninquiry8937even in the case of being a woman being unable to carry a baby to term on her own, surrogacy is a choice made out of convenience. It’s too inconvenient to deal with the disappointment and trauma of those experiences or to pursue parenthood with children who are not genetically related, so instead they outsource child bearing. I can sympathize with what led to their decision but it’s still one made out of convenience and concern only for one’s own desires.

[@Marcus-143]

Loved it. Hits on so many issues. Class, childcare, human objectification...etc

[@stardust6870]

Honestly, I don't understand the problem. No one is forcing these women to be surrogates. If that's their way to earn money or help someone, why can't people mind their business? If I had money like all these celebrities, I would also pay a willing woman to be a gestational carrier because I suffer from tokophobia and will likely never have a child because of that. As long as the surrogate is treated and paid fairly, I don't see an issue. People give their kidneys, bone marrow, etc., to others; so, if someone wants to carry someone else' child for nine months, why not?

[@gogogadget1855]

I agree. The problem to me would only be if somebody's forced. But if everybody's willing. What's the issue?

[@the_boss3421]

Agreed, it feels like the people who speak out so strongly about these issues have never suffered with fertility issues and don't understand the desire that many women with these issues have for a biological child. If someone is willing to help them, and is compensated fairly, I see no issue.

[@helendancelot]

Perhaps you should just not have children. A fear of pregnancy is logical because it can result in death or health problems..eg teeth falling out.. prolapses...all kinds of health problems that can affect the rest of your life. But pay a poor woman to take all these long term risks.. because she is poor and of less importance than the person with money..

[@helendancelot]

@@the_boss3421 how can compensation be fair for such a task? And people are always trying to get cheaper while dictating to the woman like a slave. Also what happens when the payers for some reason reject the child..which happens

[@helendancelot]

@@the_boss3421 you see no issues as you have done NO RESEARCH

[@productioninquiry8937]

I would love to agree with Kidology's POV. But based on all the unplanned kids I know who are now adults, and their lackluster upbringing, the natural way isn't producing better people in many instances. 50% of US pregnancies are unplanned. They're less prepared than Lucy Lui and the children are not being considered either. WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!?!

[@mulesalumina7220]

This is a very good point

[@productioninquiry8937]

@@mulesalumina7220 Thanks. I enjoyed screaming, "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN !?!?!?!" in my head. LOL!

[@dontmindmefangirling3123]

What does that have to do with the argument? You're saying "The average American doesn't use protections and is a bad parent for unplanned parenthood", so tell me where that applies to "I want children, but having a big belly bothers me, so I'll just buy someone's body for it and if the baby isn't good I'll throw it away"

[@productioninquiry8937]

@dontmindmefangirling3123 Most people who use surrogates do it because they cannot physically carry children due to health risk, age, or fertility troubles. Kidology posited that people who employ surrogates as a luxury would or could in some way rear worse children, unhappy children, or traumatized children, as opposed to women who have carried their own children. There is no data to support this. Many naturally birthed children are unplanned, many planned children grow up in households plagued with abuse and divorce, many unplanned children grow up lacking basic necessities. In reality, a child born to a family that can afford a surrogate for luxury would be the child with access to the most resources. Greater resources yield better outcomes for children overall. Based on Kidology's assumptions, adopting should immediately be a source of trauma. I like Kidology, but she's projecting hard.

[@gogogadget1855]

I personally don't have a problem with it, some people like baby-making but they don't like baby raising. Some people want a kid, but can't make it themselves. They work together in a way that happens to benefit both parties. As for the kids born of it, assuming that you're not anti-natalist, existence is better than non-existence. As for the possibility of exploitation of the surrogates, we definitely need to have strong laws and regulations that make it clear that they have rights. That said, imagine if we did this with farming, don't do farming because some people who farm are actually forced into it. No, continue farming, but punish harshly slavers. Just because it's an unusual way of using one's body doesn't mean that the woman in question shouldn't have the right to decide. As for the renting of a human, I would like to point out that we rent people all the time. When I hire somebody to do my grandmother's lawn, I hire a guy for their muscles and biceps to push the lawn mower back and forth. I don't see why surrogates should be unfairly stigmatized.

[@christinamcewen2647]

Yeah but labor work is not comparable to childbirth by a long shot... your lawn man won't feel the effects of his work for years after

[@joebrookesPatch]

Some celebrity paying someone an insane amount of money to birth their kid is a lot less concerning than the horrifying concept of baby factory in poorer countries, prostitution sounds like a much better life.

[@kp361]

The modern form of surrogacy means the kid is biologically the kid of both parents. It is the mother's egg and the father's sperm but for whatever reason the mother can't carry a kid to term. Having a uterus that isn't up to snuff can happen to anyone, and I actually think it is very cool there are women out there who are willing to help a couple have a kid. A kid who is biologically THEIRS, not hers.

[@charmaineespeut4627]

It is not hers, but that baby will have some of her DNA

[@kp361]

@@charmaineespeut4627 That's a myth. Not true at all.

[@helendancelot]

You think that but what are the FACTS...

[@kp361]

@@helendancelot What I've stated is medical fact. Look it up.

[@myelin-sheath]

i find myself conflicted about some of your points in this one. of course there are horror stories about the mistreatment of surrogates in ukraine, georgia, etc. and i can see how it can be morally disturbing to some to hear about women pay other women to bear their children for them. but i don't blame women like kim kardashian for seeking out alternatives if their bodies have complications that could put them or their child at risk. and with gestational surrogacy, at least regarding a male and female couple, the child may not have the identity crises that an adopted child, commercial surrogacy, or donor IVF child may have; they could still be rest assured that they are their parents' child genetically, and that there were just complications physically/emotionally/financially that required the child to be carried by someone else (perhaps a naïve take since i don't have personal experience with any of the above. it just seems like a child would be able to swallow that reality vs the reality of the other pregnancy alternatives listed). in the western world, if a woman has the choice and desire to become a surrogate (there are stories of surrogates who do it because they love the idea of helping infertile couples grow a family) then i think she should have the freedom to do so. also regarding paris and carter, i'm not sure what their opting for surrogacy has to do with the problem that he's physically and emotionally abandoning his daughter. it's a horrible irresponsible thing, but from what you've explained it seems like their whole situation would've been the same even if paris had a natural birth. seems like he was set on abandoning his daughter from the beginning, long before another child was introduced.

[@Kaybye555]

The thing is,Kim already had children, she just wants more. Just because we want something, it doesn't mean we should get it no matter what. You are only thinking about her wants and not considering that 1. The woman giving her body probably needs the money desperately (such as cases of sexual workers), the child will be taken away from it's biological mother (as much as people hate this idea, it is true, it is best for children to be attached, preferably be born naturally and breastfed). As much as it is not always posible and I understand that, you wouldn't just choose to the "whatever" thing for a child. Who is thinking of these children? Everyone is saying how much the parent want more and more and easier. That's not what having a child it's about. I find it selfish to do "whatever you must not matter what" just for a personal want. Life is not fair, not everyone gets what they want and that doesn't give people the right to continue to BUY humans

[@helendancelot]

I suspect that the number who do surrogacy for the feels and enjoyment will be a smaller and smaller percentage as the commercial aspect increases due to desperate poverty

[@myelin-sheath]

​@@Kaybye555 interested in what you mean by "buying humans". are you referring to buying the surrogate mother, as if she is a slave? because that's really just not what surrogacy is in the modern western world. the surrogate has her rights and enters into surrogacy on her own terms. it is a service she chooses to provide, whether for money, to help an infertile family, or otherwise. i see it similarly to selling plasma (though i recognize it's certainly not as intense, expensive, and time-consuming as carrying a child). you seem to be painting a grim picture over all surrogacies, and that just doesn't seem to be the reality. there are infertile couples who would truly do anything to have a child to love and care for, and it seems to be insensitive to tell them "suck it up, life's not fair, deal with it" when there are women who would be happy to help carry a child for them when they cant. there are also women who are happy to provide surrogacy services; just look up testimonials. also, if it is a gestational surrogacy, the surrogate mother is not the biological mother because the child has the DNA of the mother and father for whom she is surrogating, not the surrogate's DNA.

[@LilSyl05]

Yes definitly its going to be more common for the rich. Having your own kid might become for the poor. Probably mainly in the western world at least. Although, I'm surprised you didn't put some emphasis on women's choice nowadays. If I'm correct, its only women that want these things and most of them are definitely not in the twenties. Woman pushed for this Anyways, can you you steelman the case for surrogacy?

[@apollinariaa9228]

I'm afraid it might be even more bleak: having children in general will be only for the rich. Being a stay-at-home mother will probably seen as luxury and status symbol. That you're are so rich, you can afford to do that. And surrogacy will be something for the middle and upper class.

[@skycae]

Great video. Although, you also didn't even tough the horrific medical complications that come from egg harvesting and surrogacy. Its even worse!

[@helendancelot]

At least one woman has died.. probably more covered up

[@laraveinberg5648]

This essay is disappointing. Anyone even remotely interested in science understands the selfishness of our own need to demand procreation with a variety of physical and psychological nudges. As intelligent creatures we have found ways to procreate even when our biology fails us. That’s amazing, especially when the result is happy and healthy families. Chances are that parents who can pay for surrogacy can afford to care for their children and have a position in life that would provide safety for that child. This is the first step, not all that is necessary, but a basic must that many “naturally” born children don’t get. If a woman wants to carry another’s child - fine! As long as the woman is cared for and compensated. What does it mean to ask if it’s ethical? Is it ethical to suggest that some people should not have kids following of a surgery or hormonal misbalance even if we have the means to solve the problem? If so, why because it’s “natural”? Should we then leave disabled or sick people to perish because it’s natural? Should we stop kidney donations from family members? And let’s also consider how much of the conversation in the comments actually involves people who have fertility problems - do you know how tough it is to realise your body can’t function when you are healthy and responsible but some crackhead somewhere can get pregnant just like that? How does that fit in your utopia? Do you know what it’s like to realise you may not be able to have your own kid and your only option is to care for someone else’s? It’s a deep primal pain and it’s definitely not easy and not about the markets or capitalism or whatever. I wish we would stop worrying so much about philosophising and actually think about the human beings out there. Without surrogacy shitty parents will continue to have and mistreat their 8 naturally conceived children. And many smart and successful people would remain childless. What a win for the utopia! So… Freedom is the best policy in my mind. If consenting adults want to do whatever then let them. If the result is a kid, then our institutions need to be strong enough to support ALL types of families. And yes, there is a reason why the “concerns” about surrogacy were last raised in the 1980s - because they are crap. There is no magic recipe for a perfect life! No need to project your trauma onto others and try to insist on everything changing because of your own trauma and fears. The crap about the baby listening to the surrogate’s voice etc during pregnancy is sooo absurd. Biology is not enough, it’s not magic. Let me remind you that the majority of rapes happen in the family. F’ing hell, people can be soo insensitive ! Infertile couples are literally terrorised from all sides - liberals, conservatives, religious fanatics, family members, friends, doctors and all that even if they want or don’t want assisted pregnancy and before putting themselves through the testing and treatment hell. Man, the audacity of some people… P.s. - The clickbate title on this topic is also incredibly distasteful..

[@KidologyCO]

To answer your question, not that it’s any of your business: Yes, I do know what it’s like. I am infertile. Personally, I have come to accept that from a very young age. I’m not talking about any “utopia”. I’m not telling you _how_ to think about this: I’m simply asking all of us to thinking _harder_ about this; and that includes thinking about this, not from one’s own individual perspective, but increasingly more so from the child’s perspective. Please don’t make assumptions about me and I won’t make any about you. I wish you well🤝.

[@productioninquiry8937]

​@@KidologyCO I am sorry you are infertile. It must have been very hard and even crushing to accept that from a very young age. As someone who has faced my own fertility struggles, and has a road map of scars to prove it, I definitely hold space for all women who face that reality. I think the ask is to consider women who weren't required to accept their infertility at a young age, and thought they were healthy and could have kids, only to marry or find out later that they could not. That's a certain type of devastation that often comes after a lot of poking, prodding, and procedures. Realistically speaking, most women who use surrogates are not Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian and their kids are not props.

[@laraveinberg5648]

@@KidologyCO I haven’t made any assumptions about you personal situation. Actually the opposite, I’ve always contributed with comments of support and encouragement to your videos, including financial support. If you refer back to my comment you’ll see it says people in the comments. The reason is the incredibly insensitive comments people have made on the topic. Where I’m referring to things that you have said I’ve made this clear. I’m deeply sorry you’ve had to face this as well. I’m also infertile and I have battled this on the medicated route for 4 years now. It is a fact that your essay did not represent the views of infertile people, who explore options like surrogacy to resolve that. You focused on a small percentage of examples among wealthy individuals. Reddit is a good place to familiarise yourself with stories from everyday people. I agree that we should look at this ALSO from the perspective of the child, but we should not marginalise the pain of any humans in the processes.

[@kittykat896]

Glad you've chosen to dive into the surrogacy issue. However, I think its unfair to point towards second wave feminism as being part of the initiative towards surrogacy because of "the personal is political" aspect of feminist theory. 1) " The personal is political " was never about taking private life into public life for consumption. It was about the oppression that occurred behind closed doors for women, such as rape and abuse in the family, had actually larger sociopolitical hand that promotes, encourages and normalizes it and creates it. Which, from what I can tell, is true. Capitalism is a structured hierarchy. That hierarchical structure is class, sex and race, hence why certain oppressions exist and have existed since it's inception. They're inherent in the social structure of capitalism and is necessary for its existence. Ergo, women's oppression in the private home is due to the political necessity to control the reproduction that reproduces the society. Women's oppression is based on exploiting what's seen as "human resources" ie the working class, slave class, indigenous occupiers ect. 2) And because of this understanding that the personal is political, second wave feminists have always been staunchly against surrogacy and in particular the market of surrogacy as an industry. Sooooooo where is the link that you've made that implicates "the personal is political" and second wave feminism ie radical feminism to the free market surrogacy industry? (Side eyeing 3rd wave/Liberal feminism of being part of the problem, I cannot disagree with you there. They are and in a lot more ways and within a lot more avenues than just surrogacy, too, no qualms there) In fact, if this topic is of interest to you there's some great books out there that really delves into the issues of surrogacy written by radical feminists. Such as Living Laboratories by Robyn Rowland. Jennifer Bilek is an independent journalist who does a deep dive into transhumanism and the free market industry that's trying to open up even more of the reproductive market and emerge that with the tech industry, in her blog " the 11th hour blog", which can easily be found with a quick Google search.

[@katherinegrant4651]

I was going to write the same! Kid has so many great points in this video but the reference to "the personal is political" was a complete misunderstanding of the motto.

[@glitterstarbeau]

I'm lucky that i feel fine while pregnant. But being tired all the time sucks. Also, not worrying about dying in childbirth would be cool.

[@KaiEL_Nkosana]

i worry that the growth of this industry will actually result in many people adopting antinatalist beliefs, this seems like it'll add fuel to an already flawed belief that is already gaining steam. Excellent video

[@cubanadelrey]

antinatalist beliefs? people who don’t want to have children are not going to have children. and they are well within their right to do so.

[@EyeOfTheTiger777]

Antinatalism is so stupid... But why do I feel like Kid would defend it?

[@KaiEL_Nkosana]

@@EyeOfTheTiger777 i strongly doubt she would. Antinatalism is an extreme belief

[@FullMetalFeline]

Interested why you're against antinatalism? We know that suffering and death are guarantees in life while joy and happiness are not. If we do not consider any philosophical belief that the soul goes on and we're here for a purpose, and assume that the physical is all there is, then beings are forced into this world not through their consent of wanting to exist, but because parents want them for selfish/ biologically programmed reasons. People are created to suffer and die for someone else's pleasure. That is the short of it. I don't see how it isn't logically better to not exist if we're operating on the logic that less suffering is a moral good. I would be interested to hear your perspective.

[@laraveinberg5648]

@@FullMetalFeline No, humans, together with all animals, are created via their parents so life can continue. This is the meaning of life. To go on and be. Our genes want to persist existing, we are the way in which the universe experiences itself. We are at the mercy of our genes. Your views about life and death are incredibly selfish. Ask the bird if it wants to live, ask the fish, damn, ask your own cells. Of course, we can’t, because we are the only ones burdened with self-awareness. Those creatures and simple cells have less freedom and options, but they still play their part in the circle of life. We don’t know why and how exactly life happened to start on our little planet, I don’t think it’s wise to decide it should end. Especially considering the miracle that is the human species.

[@thepineapple8434]

If you can’t/ don’t want to get pregnant … adopt. Surrogacy or “gestational carrying” is so unethical.

[@kp361]

If you genuinely believe this, you either have your own kids which were conceived with ease, or you have no desire to have them.

[@TH2714]

You forget here that it is really not easy to adopt. It is already a very long and difficult process for a couple, but impossible if you are single.

[@kp361]

@@TH2714 And I hate the way these idiots frame adoption as some 'second choice' to having bio kids. Adoption isn't for everyone.

[@kc8391]

I'm sorry to tell you, but closed adoption can be very traumatic for the child, especially in transracial circumstances

[@kp361]

@@farmhouseonthemountain I'm glad you both have a daughter - you went through an experience many go through (miscarriages) before achieving that goal. And instead of your losses and the birth of your daughter giving you empathy, it's made you bitter. You don't want anyone else who struggles (and isn't lucky enough to finally be successful) to be able to have children of their own. You probably need therapy. Try some introspection and examine your twisted motivations and your own soul, and you'll realise you're both wrong.

[@theblacklapinou]

Ah yes, getting freed from the pains and hardships of pregnancies… by underpaying a less privileged woman to endure it instead. Great.

[@hnybee113]

But it gives women like me who had a partial hysterectomy at 37 before harvesting my eggs. A little hope, if I still have my eggs. Hope to have a biological child without a uterus. I am a feminist but i know someone will always extort women in any form. Keep our eyes on where we will.lose our rights bc of money.

[@decoraqueena6413]

I can see how this trend will quickly turn into a slippery slope into something sinister and dangerous. If something proves to be profitable, there will be those who want a piece of it. Basically what I'm saying is this surrogacy thing can easily turn into another sort of human trafficking if not strictly regulated.

[@laraveinberg5648]

“Easily” 😂

[@HIMMBelljuvo]

Is it just me or are you becoming even more beautiful?

[@KidologyCO]

You are too sweet🥲😅.

[@imtheonewhobroughtthebeans915]

@@KidologyCO They’re too right- there’s never really a chance because your videos are so thorough and thought provoking, but sometimes I just wanna hop in your comments section and say “wow, you’re a stunningly gorgeous person” (and my internet crush 👀)

[@HIMMBelljuvo]

@@KidologyCO haha right back at yu 😅

[@ethicalbunny]

17.00 this is so bang on! Can you imagine being Lucy lus child and reading that interview …. The child is never considered

[@serenth8310]

Why even restrict surrogacy to wanna-be parents? It might be economical for corporations to just grow and train their own employees. Once you have removed the rights of the mother (who has grown the child in her own body regardless of the genetic make-up) to keep her child you are legalising human trafficking.

[@productioninquiry8937]

You must not know what companies are paying nowadays. LOL!

[@PossibleBat]

Im deeply terrified of the direction western societies are going. I’m terrified of surrogacy being legal in my country (it’s not). I’m terrified of this future of liberalism and transhumanism. I care for human beings first. I hate the bourgeoise.

[@cocopunk]

In India there were a few incidents of foreigners coming for surrogacies and abandoning the child when the baby had health issues or down syndrome. After that the government banned commercial surrogacy. Esp for foreigners to come here and do this. I think every country especially in the global south needs to ban surrogacy. Going to third world countries to exploit those women further is despicable

[@OpticalArxenal]

I think it's great that people choose to have kids when they feel more able and set in life, but the flip side is treating kids not as people, but a cold, hard investment, and that part is gross to the marrow.

[@tserln1149]

Nowadays children are treated better than at any over period of time before. They've always been an investment.

[@OpticalArxenal]

@@tserln1149 Investing in people because you care is very different to investing in kids for your own benefit and not theirs, and many do not do the former.

[@doll.mecanique]

Omg I was not expecting that... I knew puppy mills existed. Those are sad and terrible conditions the animals experience hidden away.. amd now there are baby baking basements? ( sorry for alliteration couldn't help myself) ugh 😑 consumerism is really getting gout of hand Je t'aime kid❤❤

[@TheYasmineFlower]

To put it in context, it isn't only surrogates in Ukraine that have to give birth in bomb shelters. And the reason they give birth there isn't pure malice or something, but simply the invasion that Russia is waging on Ukraine. As unethical as some of the Ukrainian surrogacy agencies are (and there are quite a few things to say about them), they would likely prefer the surrogates to give birth in a hospital where the intended parents can pick the child up without trudging through a war zone. These surrogates are not hidden away and forced to breed. Those conditions occur in the world but are called "baby farms" and do not involve a surrogacy process, but kidnapping, rape, forced birth and illegal adoptions.

[@Kaybye555]

It is gut wrenching

[@moononthewindynight27]

I don't see a problem in this at all. Better be a "carrier" than being a prostitute. If I could pay a "carrier" I would because I am small and I am absolutely terrified of giving birth and the mistreatment of women in labour in my country. Tough women have 2+ kids and say it's easy, but for me, a woman with a horrifically low pain tolerance.... I wish I could just pay someone to do it for me

[@productioninquiry8937]

14:31 Most mothers would say the real brunt of motherhood is raising and caring for a human for 18+ years, not pregnancy and postpartum for those who end up with depression.

[@productioninquiry8937]

13:32 All family plannig, regardless of how it takes place, is guided by the notion of potentially having a child at the best and optimal time for the parent, or when it is most convenient. That's literally what family planning is for the most part.

[@yveje9720]

Kind of weird seeing these older women use gestational carrier generally speaking older women can carry their own children. It’s just that getting pregnant is harder because their eggs aren’t as good. but if you freeze your eggs, you should be able to carry the baby via IVF. there are women in their 50s and 60s doing this

[@productioninquiry8937]

Not necessarily. Miscarriage rates are higher in older women.

[@yveje9720]

@@productioninquiry8937 yes usually because of the eggs I mean it might be slightly higher even with IVF but generally speaking, it shouldn’t be a big problem. One of my close friends works as an OB/GYN. She literally has patients that are in their 50s having babies for the first time via IVF.

[@productioninquiry8937]

​@Yve Je How many have had fibroid surgery? 1 in 5 women have fibroids by age 50 and that's the lowest estimate.

[@yveje9720]

@@productioninquiry8937 you can get pregnant with fibroids. Lots of women have fibroids actually and carry to term

[@productioninquiry8937]

@@yveje9720 Women with fibroids miscarry during early pregnancy at twice the rate of women without them.

[@BeingHumane173]

We need the Artificial Womb Technology asap instead, so that women who wants biological kids of her own, but are afraid or are not willing to go through the extreme hardships, risks and pains of natural pregnancy and childbirth can opt for an artificial womb to gestate their fetuses without having to go pregnant themselves or depend on surrogate mother's to have biological kids. Because, pregnancy is afterall extremely hard, risky, painfull and damaging to a woman's health and wellness, be it on biological mothers or surrogate mothers. No women should have to go through that horror, to have a biological child, if they don't want to. Reproduction should be as easy for a woman, as it is for a man.

[@LondonMoneyCashEnterprise]

That feels dystopian, if u can’t handle the risk of pregnancy, are u ready for the sacrifice of raising children

[@jamienelson4326]

Pregnant with my third. It’s not THAT bad.

[@Kaybye555]

Thia brings its own problems. Child bearing is not just about the fetus being alive. There are so many intricate things happening in a womb that are importar, we cannot replicate it. Highly unethical

[@SaigesArstgo1031]

That wouldnt lead into eugenics really quickly 🥴

[@BeingHumane173]

Even cars were considered "dystopian", when they first became a thing. IVF was called "dystopian" when they first became a thing. And many more such examples. Its called technophobia. Sure, there might be ethical issues that needs to be addressed with proper laws and regulations. Doesn't mean, we don't need this much needed technology that can save thousands of lives and make having kids easier.

[@DimaRakesah]

To me this just shows how much we treat babies and children like accessories or luxury goods. Wealthy people are so desperate to have them they will pay massive amounts and go to great lengths to get themselves a fresh baby. Then they hire other people to raise them. Meanwhile, poor women are being tricked, discouraged or downright thrown in jail if they get an abortion. There is an entire industry based on convincing poor women to have babies and SELL them to wealthy families. Paying womenlarge sums to have your baby is absolutely a business. You are preying on the poorer woman to need your money badly enough that she will spend 9 months carrying a baby that she will give up for you, then deal with all the recovery from birth. What cemented the insanity of this to me was seeing people arguing that brain dead women should be used to make babies for people who want them. Without any consent required from the woman when she was actually alive. People are so crazy to have babies that they will actually see a brain dead woman's body as just an incubator for their use. It's sick. It's like some kind of fucking horror movie.

[@lilyflower5576]

Why do sureogacy when there are so many children that need adopting and fostering?

[@LooksByNaheemah]

When the money is actually going to the surrogate, I don’t see where there’s an issue. Me. Have been “ordering kids” since the Dawn of time. It’s almost always on their schedule, to give them heirs, etc. now women are able to have more CHOICE in how they want yo have children. And surrogates are able to profit from it. Back in the day they would just have the husband sleep with a servant and then take the baby. She makes no profit and doesn’t have any agency over the act.

[@Xairos84]

You aren't wrong, but you are viewing it through a simple 'oppressed' lens. This view is centered around money being the best thing we think people will strive for. Time is a resource for all of us, and the 9 months that the gestational carrier is spending on person A's child is time lost on cultivation of their own family. Compensation can't replace that.

[@kora4185]

It’s so dystopian to trade your youth for money, to have enough money to afford children once is riskier to have them, to then rent the womb of young people that need money that may not have enough money to have their own kids afterwards

[@redmaple1982]

10:36 "the personal is political" was originally conceived as a rallying cry against the ways society and state failed to address misogynistic abuse. DV, SA, CSA, were often legally viewed as "personal" matters that ought to be resolved in the home or office. This is substantially differt from the current discourse about things like dating preferences.

[@ultimate6243]

"The Personal is political" was a feminist Propaganda to project Men as an enemy. And it resulted is huge false cases and Extortion of Money from Men.

[@GreenGorgeousness]

I just think loke many new tech it needs to be regulated like adoption. You go to jail for abandoning the xhild you had through surrogacy, if you aren't there within an hour of the baby being born you lose the right to it; aka you need to be there through labor so the baby doesn't have to spend any time without human touch and the birth .other doesn't have to feel the baby's screams. I just feel the fear mongering on this one are a stretch.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

I agree with prosecuting intended parents who abandon their surrogacy-born children. But a "be there within an hour ot lose the right to the baby" is just nonsensical. Many people have to travel to engage a surrogate, not just within their own country but to other countries, since it's not legal everywhere. Travel time alone would make that impossible to require. I agree that there's a lot of fearmongering around surrogacy. Lots of TERF fearmongering specifically: Feminists who make surrogacy their main feminist cause have a strange overlap with transphobic feminists. Their solution is almost never to demand regulation, but just to ban surrogacy entirely. As if that would make it go away - that would just make people engage in covert traditional surrogacy again. As also happens in many countries where surrogacy is illegal. People still do it. Might as well regulate it for everyone's safety.

[@amelie-anneflagel4225]

I found the Paris Hilton case pretty despicable : I’m afraid of dying being pregnant but no problem asking someone else doing that at her own risk

[@sailorscorpio27]

10000% agree with you. People get pissy when you get between them and the kids they can pay to have.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

Some people are required to pay to have kids (be that paying for a sperm donation in case of a single woman or a lesbian couple, for example, or accessing fertility treatments) because that is the way the system is structured. Lots of people try to make it only an issue of paying for it, when their actual goal is preventing people who do not conform to their ideals of how you should live to realize their dreams. For example, homophobic people who couch their homophobic objections to queer people having babies in "ethical concerns about gamete donation and surrogacy".

[@MB-yl9hm]

@@TheYasmineFlower Lol, they're not required, they're just narcissists. If you and your partner can't naturally have a child together, just stop there and get a grip of your ego.

[@PBMarl]

​​@@TheYasmineFlower are you really comparing sperm donation that has zero physical risks for a man, to risky pregnancy and childbirth that can literally lead to death or lifelong health consequences for surrogate mothers if complications occur? What the F is wrong with you mentally? I really hope karma exists. Stop pretending to be a good human who cares about others well being when you support people taking advantage of womens bodies, health and even lives, just because they're in a better financial situation than the desperate people they exploit.

[@one-sidedrationalization1091]

@@TheYasmineFlower The concern over women’s rights is homophobic?

[@Pomagranite167]

I peronally feel like if you have to pay to have a kid.....you probably should just accept the kid thing is just not in the cards for you. Not everyone gets to have what they want. Sorry.

[@chickensoupfordinner]

This was an interesting listen as my friend just used a surrogate (she can’t carry a child) and after I had my child I was approached about being a surrogate myself by a company (no thank you, my pregnancy was hard). We are both in the USA but as she talked about the process and how it was presented to me, it didn’t sound more exploitative than other jobs that damage your body overtime (manual labor jobs or professional sports), but with potentially better protections as step one was a lot of lawyering about a contract where both sides have representation. I can see it being really exploitative when it goes international and the surrogates just live in the place with the least regulation. Thank you for your opinion and giving me a lot to think about.

[@helendancelot]

Seems a woefully inadequately paid job to me.. you said your own was hard.. how much money would have been sufficient to compensate..then to hand the baby over and perhaps never even have word again?

[@chickensoupfordinner]

@@helendancelot I think it depends on the person. I know some people who had easy pregnancies and loved being pregnant. You just don't know beforehand. I can also see a person being okay with handing over a baby, especially if they went into the process knowing it wasn't going to be raised by them. Bonding with your baby isn't automatic or instant, it's different per person and can take months (people really gloss over this when talking about pregnancy and babies). At least you know the child is going to a couple who wants a child enough to go through this (IVF isn't exactly easy on you either). I really don't see anything morally or inherently wrong with being a surrogate if you go in with proper protections and rights. There is a wide range of experiences when it comes to being pregnant and birthing a baby. Bad jobs have had way more negative long term effects on my health and body than my pregnancy, and I wasn't being paid fairly there either.

[@iknowyouwanttofly]

Ok but a baby bond with the carrier even before birth. How many newborns do you think would want to be seperated? Is that trauma worth less just because they cant talk did not agree and dont get payed?

[@chickensoupfordinner]

@@iknowyouwanttofly Not an expert on this, but I don't think that giving birth to baby = good and strong attachment bond with baby. There may be some truth to them recognizing your voice, but I think it is more important for a baby to be loved and cared for after birth to form a strong bond. My baby is very attached to my husband and my mom, and I think it is because they have been a reliable source of cuddles and comfort.

[@chickensoupfordinner]

@@iknowyouwanttofly I am also irked by the idea of giving birth being the most important factor in bonding with your baby, as far as their well being and your relationship goes. Birth is so short compared to the rest of your relationship with your child as a parent, and dads are important. There is no way to automatically create a loving bond with your baby or child that is gender specific. You need to love and care for them every day to build this. In my opinion, the most important thing for a child is to have a parent who is willing and able to love and care for them, whether they gave birth to them or not. (And even if you are the birthing mother keeping your child, something like a NICU stay or other medical issues means you have to be seperated anyway, but people still bond with their children after that.)

[@matten_zero]

The difference between this and birth control? Technological society is what it is. You accept the good (the internet, liberated sexuality thanks to birth control) with the bad (ethical dilemmas surrounding surrogates as an example). Brave new world.

[@lacijohnson400]

Right! Because I don’t understand these comments and this video…

[@Tofu_va_Bien]

The difference is that one involves the exploitation of working class women who are treated appallingly by these commercial surrogacy companies while the other literally affects no one apart from the person taking the birth control. You’d have to be brain dead to think that these actions are remotely similar in their ethical implications.

[@Kaybye555]

What? What does surrogacy have to do with birth control?

[@roccafille]

Totally dissagree. Their are al lot of worse thing in this life then parents wanting children and other people who agree that they want to help them out. The arguments you were saying about having biological parents to understand yourself just doesn't hold up for me personally. Never met my bio dad or felt I needed to. My brother and me were raised by somebody that wasn't our biological mom till I was ten and he was twelve. We were not the same race! That person gave us lot's of love. A lot more then bio mom that we were forced to go back to and live with by the state when we were ten and twelve (because children need to be with somebody from their own race 🤢). Most important thing for parents is that they are there for their children and love and honor them and treat them with respect. That goes for any parent. Lot's of biological parents are unfit parents. I don't see why you just assume that if somebody didn't birth their own child that therefor they wouldn't be good parents or less fit then biological parents. If you have a problem with capatalism, fair enough. But the issues you are saying has very little to do with the capatalist part. Their are for sure ethical issues with surrogacy for profit. Issues like the power embalance that the rich can just pay somebody who has to go through a lot of risks just for a good monetairy compensation. I also agree that babies aren't a product that you can just get whenever you want one. But the whole thing about it having to biological yours for it to be loved exc.. just totally dissagree. Like stated earlier a lot of biological parents aren't good parents to their kids and a lot of people who take care of kids they didn't birth are doing a great job parenting them!!

[@sanchitasahu8796]

Sperm donation should also be banned i have seen so many men do it for money. My friends whole life ruined when her husband decide to donate it to sister in law. And later he got feelings towards that child and now he is bringing that child into her and their childrens life all of a sudden. Ps sister in law and brother in law got divorced,niether of them wanted to take the child so his uncle / biological father take him home. But this ruined my friends whole life and biggest injustice happened with their children as now they have to share their father and everything with someone else. They lost all of their rights. Please sperm donation should be banned. Their happy family ruined because of this.

[@tyracole1998]

I have many qualms with service but my number one problem with it is the fact that you could just adopt instead of renting a womb. Unless you're in a very specific situation like you're a queer couple and your Living in a place where you're not allowed to adopt legally.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

This is actually a bit of a fallacy and not the best comparison. One aspect that surrogacy enables is a blood-related child to at least one of the intended parents. This can be important in cultures where blood is valued highly, whereas an adopted child might not be accepted by the extended family. Another aspect is that adoption is multifaceted: In some places like Australia, only a handful of babies are placed for adoption each year. So for someone who wants to raise a child from infancy, adoption is unlikely to work out. They can try to adopt domestically but it can take many, MANY years and there is no guarantee of getting a child. They can try to adopt internationally, in which case it is pretty much guaranteed that the youngest you will get is a toddler. Then there are countries where adoption is not allowed or highly stigmatized generally, not just for queer couples but also single people. And then you have the issue that for adoption, the government of course has a right to examine your fitness to be a parent - which is good, but also has the potential of discrimination, for example if you belong to an ethnic or religious minority or if you have chronic illnesses or disabilities. There is no "just adopt" almost anywhere in the world. I say that as someone who wants to adopt: It's not a simple process. It will involve lots of preparation, since children who are up for adoption have generally experienced at least one trauma in their lives, potentially more than that if you adopt from foster care or an orphanage. Surrogacy is, in fact, the easier option. You can plan for it. If it is done ethically, the surrogate has given consent to go through the process, and then the main issue is getting a pregnancy established and going to term. If the laws where the surrogate lives allow for pre-birth parentage orders, the intended parents have more legal assurance that they can take the baby home. Not every place has those rules, so a surrogate elsewhere might be able to decide to keep the baby. That's not something intended parents necessarily want to experience. In adoption, you need to first find a child that you can adopt. This means that a child has to already be legally abandoned and declared adoptable, or a person who is currently pregnant or has recently given birth chooses you to adopt their baby (or social workers choose you depending on how the system works where you are; either way, the parent that birthed the child has to choose to place the child for adoption). And the person who birthed the child (or the other biological parent) has the right to take back the decision to let their child be adopted (this too depends on where the child is born, for example in Florida as soon as the placing parent signs consent to adoption, they can't take it back, whereas other states have a period of time where they can still revoke their consent). So the moment you can actually be assured that the child is legally yours is after the adoption has been granted by a court, and that takes a minimum of a few months. Both surrogacy and adoption come with certain ethical issues to contend with. They are not replacements for each other. Someone who wants to adopt won't necessarily want to have a child through surrogacy, and someone who wants to have a child through surrogacy doesn't necessarily want to adopt.

[@rubyblue7119]

People are allowed to do what they want. Not everyone wants to adopt and your exception sound ridiculous and biased. So queer people are allowed to have kids via surrogacy but hetero couples aren't? What's stopping queer couples from adopting? 😒

[@mina0653]

There are thousands of children in desperate need of a foster family but actual adoption is extremely difficult because it's heavily regulated and both of the child's parents must be dead. It can be different in your country but I imagine not that much.

[@PBMarl]

​@@TheYasmineFlower nothing ethical about exploiting women and risking financially desperate womens health and lives for your own selfish desires 🤡 stop trying to convince people here with your twisted BS under so many comments. This is worse than prostitution because women can literally die from pregnancy or birth related complications or deal with permanent health issues because of pregnancy or birth.

[@ethicalbunny]

That doesn’t give you a right to rent a woman’s body !!!!

[@ariiakogen4283]

Honestly, I just wish we had artificial wombs to grow children so that women do not have to suffer through the pregnancy unless they choose to.

[@TrippyKitty08]

If birth and pregnancy wasn't depicted as utter hell and more a natural part of life I'm sure we'd be better off. But i also live in the US and cannot afford a baby. My work does offer maternity leave but we used to be a pretty left leaning company. Culturally the family unit has been destroyed since the 70s at least. My family couldn't teach me how to date or anything like that (they were gen X latchkey kids). They just wanted me to avoid it all forever I guess. Maybe these gen X celebrities are just as lost and dumb as my family.

[@mojrimibnharb4584]

As liberalism is the worship of the self, this drive to "free" ourselves from nature and life is just a predictable, late stage outcome.

[@vaughanmerrick]

This is one of your best investigations Z, and so much more to unpack in terms of power and wealth dynamics and the ethical implications for all involved.

[@ivy2007]

I stop everything I'm doing when I see you post a video! I'm glad you covered this topic I'm interested to see your thoughts/viewpoint on this issue.

[@genericwhiteguy2910]

I get women not wanting to be pregnant but still wanting kids but why not, like, adopt?

[@charmaineespeut4627]

You can't pay me enough to become a surrogate. Child birth is extremely painful. Those contractions are no joke and postpartum depression makes you feel homicidal/suicidal. Even if I could hire a surrogate I wouldn't because I dont trust that woman enough to take care of my unborn baby. Knowing me I would want to control what she eats and what she does to make sure my baby is healthy. To give a stranger your own baby to grow and not think about them until they are born tells me you don't really care for that baby.

[@TsukiNoInu93]

In the netherlands its illegal, idk how i feel about it, but it does feel creepy to rent someones womb. Its not just a bread your baking, how will a woman not feel a connection to the baby growing in het womb.

[@AlexThomas-hq1dn]

As what Jesus is

[@KP-5928]

I agree with some of your points, but I think people forget that some women do want to be surrogates for their own personal goals. I have considered being a surrogate myself because though I was not positive I wanted kids of my own, I did like the idea of helping a couple have kids who is unable to do so themselves. I feel like we always immediately victimize women across the board in discussions like this, and forget that women who are surrogates (a generally women who use their bodies transactionly) are not a monolith.

[@iknowyouwanttofly]

Yeah but newborns in a way are a monolith. They do t have culture etc yet. And they are the ones being hurt even in the arragments where the surrogate is ok.

[@timeabg]

Maybe this would be an unpopular opinion, but there are women who want to pass on their genes, have the emotional capacity to care and provide for a child, but aren’t fit for pregnancy - either in their body, mind, or both. To me, having a child sounds like something I could do and would love to, but lending my body to another being is a skin-crawling nightmare. I have always had aversion to touch and the thought of having another living being inside of me and then having to breastfeed sounds soul-crushing.

[@MB-yl9hm]

The first barrier to parenthood is literally giving up your body for another person. If you really want a biological child and can't even do that, then you are probably not fit to be a parent in the first place. You sound like you need a lot of help, not a child.

[@laughingseagull000]

Tokophobia is becoming disturbingly common.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

@@laughingseagull000 I feel like the attack on reproductive freedom in so many parts of the world has something to do with that. Nothing makes you fear pregnancy more than the prospect of dying because of it because someone else gets to control your body more than you do...

[@LondonMoneyCashEnterprise]

If u can’t handle pregnancy are u fit for raising kids?

[@ethicalbunny]

Don’t have a child then.

[@PothePerson]

I think children and mothers used to be more public, prior to the industrial revolution. The job of parenting was just just the job of mother and father, but was shared between female relatives and friends. 6:03

[@anitaa5870]

As soon as you said "Liberal Feminism" I was like oooo I'm not the only one who has read some Louise Perry as well

[@gem2148]

FINALLY someone said this

[@LijTafari91]

I'm very interested in the women who become surrogates. What is happening in their lives that they would choose such a thing

[@GreenGorgeousness]

Some women are poor, others love being pregnant. Not all that is strange is exploitive.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

This depends on the system where they are. In countries where commercial surrogacy is allowed, the women may have financial motivations (though even then they are often expected to also "want" to do it for altruistic reasons). In countries where only altruistic surrogacy is allowed, motivations like wanting to help others may be more prevalent. This also depends on the situation of each surrogate, though. Not everyone is willing to be a surrogate for perfect strangers. But there have been many cases of in-family surrogacy arrangements, such as sisters doing it for sisters, or even mothers doing it for daughters. In those cases, they will likely be motivated for the love they feel for that person and their desire to help that specific person. But they may not want to do it for people they do not know at all or as well.

[@machinegunsforever]

Poverty.

[@LijTafari91]

@@GreenGorgeousness "love being pregnant"!? This is a kink for some people?

[@drastically143]

@@LijTafari91 not everything is a kink, but yeah, some are into this.

[@Laura-vs6fs]

A great video as always, but I feel like a big logical fallacy happened though. Biological parents most of the time are extremely selfish with their wish for children. They are the ones pretending their child is their property bc they "made" it. I would argue they are higher in percentage than selfish people, who had to have children in other ways, but ofc these things cannot be measured. As in every case though it's highly individual and I think surrogacy can be done right just like adoption, IVF, sperm and embryo donations. A grandmother being a gestational carrier for her own daughter and a woman donating her embryo to her sister for IVF. There are many similar stories. What I saw in these stories were grateful people and happy parents. Even though I myself would not be comfortable with donating my embryo to or carrying a family members child just because it would affect me physically, I still admire people who consensually do it. The thing is that many think of it as purely altruistic, while some believe it is more ethical to pay the carrier.

[@MB-yl9hm]

Someone can think of their child as property that they "made" all they want, it doesn't change the fact that all of us from the dawn of time are created by our father having sex with our mother and inseminating one of her eggs which eventually becomes us as we grow in her womb. That is how human beings are created. We are not science experiments, we are real human beings that exist within the bounds of nature. There is no right way to adulterate nature, there is always a trade off. The trade off for surrogacy is serious medical complications to the gestational mother, and then the eventual emotional turmoil you are putting both the baby and surrogate mother through when it is time to give the paying parents their bought baby (whether literally or metaphorically). Maybe you haven't had a child yet, but when you are pregnant you are deeply connected to the child growing in your womb, and the child is implicitly connected to you. When you tear the child away from the woman it has been relying on for life for 9 months you are causing irreparable harm to both parties. We don't even rip puppies away from their mother at birth, at least you're not supposed. And this isn't even getting into the higher risk of health issues for the baby it's self when they are "created" this way. No one is owed a biological child through unnatural means, it is cruel to the child and it is cruel to oneself deep down. Again, there is no way to do this correctly. If you cannot naturally carry a child, you have to grow up and take it like an adult. If you feel so called to parenthood, then adopt, foster, be a matriarchal figure in your community, but don't make the mistake of thinking you are owed anything.

[@PBMarl]

Nope, because at least a woman who wants and is able to carry a child on her own, is risking her life and health fully voluntary. People who pay other women to carry a child for them are risking a financially desperate womans health and life because they're in a better financial position than the surrogate who needs the money and probably ignores the potential health or death risk of pregnancy and childbirth only because of financial desperation. I think paying someone else and risking someone elses life or health for your own selfish desires is way worse. It's exploitation of another human.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

@@PBMarl People pay other people to risk their life and health all the time. That's called capitalism. If you have an issue with capitalism, by all means fight that shit. But don't pretend that surrogacy is a special kind of evil. It is not special and it is not inherently evil.

[@lacijohnson400]

@@PBMarl but the surrogate woman has the right to reject the offer knowing the risk no?

[@MrsNGsquared]

Good video so far, just one note: It's Ukraine (without the "the") and Kyiv, not KiEv. :D

[@jaymew0]

Currently reading Feminism Against Progress right now and thrilled to hear you mention it in this video

[@bloopdaddy]

Great video. Side note: what lipstick are you wearing? Love it!

[@consciouscrypto3090]

Great point that it's all about the parents and the needs of the child aren't considered at all. I saw an even more egregious example of this this past week where a male was being given heavy doses of drugs to induce lactation and then a baby was fed that 'milk' even though studies have shown that one of the drugs used leads babies to have heart conditions from drinking such excretions. Who cares though, right? It's all about the parent being validated as being able to breastfeed.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

There is no "milk" about it, that IS human breastmilk. Whether it is safe to consume is a different issue, as even cis women who gave birth might not be able to breastfeed due to taking medication that gets into the breastmilk. And fyi, cis men can naturally breastfeed. There was a case in 2002 from Sri Lanka where a man was able to nurse his two children after his wife died in childbirth. And no, induced lactation does not produce unsafe breastmilk. The medication I know of that induces lactation has heavy side effects for the person taking it, but the breastmilk is perfectly safe for the infant to drink.

[@consciouscrypto3090]

​@@TheYasmineFlower If I come across the exact name of the drug I'm talking about I'll come back and post it here. I'm not just pulling out of thin air the idea that it causes heart defects. Now there may be more than one such drug being used, but in the dominant protocol for transwomen wanting to produce 'milk' it is a drug used. This drug is no longer used for women who have trouble producing breastmilk for that very reason, but I guess it's necessary to reliably induce in males. There was a case in IL where they tried to get CPS to investigate child abuse for a transwoman feeding this stuff to an infant on this very basis, that the milk is considered unfit for consumption.

[@laughingseagull000]

To them, a baby is just an accessory for their disgusting fetish.

[@TheYasmineFlower]

@@consciouscrypto3090 Transwomen are not males, and your insistence on calling them that is transphobic. And I am guessing the CPS investigation in IL that was attempted was for transphobic sentiments. There are very safe medications people use to induce lactation, and most people who try it will be using those safe medications. And if they use an unsafe medication, that is usually down to a doctor prescribing it, and patients are not required to know all the issues their prescribed medication might have. That's why they go to a doctor in the first place. So if that mother who was nursing her baby was prescribed a dangerous medication to induce lactation, there would be no need for a CPS investigation anyway, because that's the doctor's fault then. Report the doctor to their licensing board and leave the family alone.

[@laughingseagull000]

@@TheYasmineFlower If being concerned about infants is transphobic, then I’m proud to be transphobic.

[@lennny2218]

I knew you had read ''Feminism against progress'' 2 minutes into the video, I'm reading it myself right now! And I really recommend it for anyone who has ever felt icky about the current trends in feminism and the modern view of motherhood. Its been a very enlightening and thought-provoking read. If you're not into reading she has been on podcasts like Triggernometry and Maiden Mother Matriarch.

[@dorje9580]

It is a book I like to call "fishing the net" back in, read Right Wing Women. Mary is a Marabel Morgan - one who compromises surrogacy as it is in a relationship that is proctored but her brand of reaction is for women to basically compromise in every ideal until essentially everything they do is a reflective surrogacy. She calls herself a "reactionary feminist" because she is just that - one who wants to "salvage" the points of feminism for her own personal gain. I would just listen to a high brand narcissist if I wanted to align myself with her.

[@EyeOfTheTiger777]

It was just a question of time when some feminists would turn regressive. It's just luddite nonsense, she's citing the Ancient Greeks and warning of some hubris... Such a religiously informed perspective, essentializing body functions as if they're some sort of sacred symbols... should tell you everything you need to know. Oh no, humans no longer tear raw flesh with their teeth. We're using these metallic tools to feed ourselves. And we no longer ride horses, instead we're moving on loud contraptions fueled by dinosaur corpses that we set on fire inside the contraption's engine. We're also staring at screens and communicating silently by using black magic called the internet. The sheer transhumanist horrors! Uhhh. Can we all just continue forward please enough with these paranoid, schizo hangups.

[@mysteryblart3980]

Thank you so more talking about this - it's so worrisome but until recently I've only seen small feminist/academic channels discussing this. Jennifer Lahl with Venus Rising has lots of amazing podcasts about the surrogacy industry.

[@yanawald5918]

Thank you very much for this video! I am so sad about the fact that in my country surrogacy isn't forbidden and many foreigners use poor ukrainian women because of their poverty and legal insecurity 😞I cancel the stars that support surrogacy - don't want movies or clips with them. They need to heal their ethic. Thank you 💙💛 (but please: 'Ukraine' - not 'the Ukraine').

[@niiii_niiii]

Salutations ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@KidologyCO]

Salutations to you too, kind one❤️‍🔥!

[@PrincessVelaryon]

I often wonder how these women feel when they see the kids they gave birth to growing up in the media? How does the woman who gave birth to Kims kids feel seeing them online. Or Christianos son whos mon gave up all rights to him for a cheque?

[@productioninquiry8937]

They don't feel attached to the kid, it's not theirs in any way.