‘No one has the right to a child’ Julie Bindel and Miriam Cates on the ethics of surrogacy

[@lynn8487]

Many of the 'customers' don't want a baby, they want a healthy 'normal' baby and we're hearing more now of babies being rejected by the perspective parents because they didn't get what they were expecting.

[@MaryCaroline-qt2fz]

@@lynn8487 Horrific

[@wimsylogic65]

That's horrible. Then They don't deserve to be parents.

[@Anna-tj7mp]

Julie is so right about nobody having the 'right' to a child. Not having biological children should not stop anyone from being a wonderful auntie, uncle godparent, foster parent... Friend, mentor, guardian... . There are so many children who need all of the above. There are so many ways of generating life. Of giving to the young and setting them on their way.

[@blueprairiedog]

@@Anna-tj7mp Amen! I've been a nurse, aunt & educator - my contribution matters, too.

[@Anna-tj7mp]

@@blueprairiedog Amen, @blueprairiedog. We nurture and protect life and it is wonderful.

[@judelbugsrutter6727]

I hear you, but I don't think that the answer is an easy one. My parents were foster parents for a time and had contact with some truly evil people aka biological parents who did wicked things to their children in order to keep a boyfriend. I was 10 when my little foster sister told me what the mother's boyfriend did to her, it never really gets easier to hear even as an adult... the DoCs made her see her abuser, made her talk on the phone and she always cried as the toad with lipstick mother scapegoated her... had to see her bully older sister at times to. Crap that kid was scary. I can understand wanting to just pencil out that drama from your life. You can't adopt from foster care in our country... so perhaps in places like the USA it's different. I personally wanted lots of kids but wasn't interested in being a single parent; in my 20s no one wanted me. I was encouraged to be thankful for what I did have and invested in my niblings and friends' kids and was eventually ok and then happy being child-free. It's not for everyone. Some people do find it more difficult to separate themselves from the belief that 'if I just had... my life would be perfect'. My foster siblings often thought being back with parents was the ... my personal 'bogan Regina George' thought the ... was her parents being back together (I think the one she didn't live with golden-childed her). Living in this mindset of victimhood made her the nastiest bully/friend and she took her authority wherever she could get it; ruthlessly. So I guess therapy if a person finds themselves starting to fixate on the only way to be happy is by having a child...? Maybe living there is impacting their relationships with people around them... Looking around as an aunty I've filled some gaps here and there for my siblings and friends because raising kids is a HARD job even for 2 parents (and all of my niblings didn't always have 2 parents that loved each other and them too). I haven't needed to shield my own children from dangerous people in order to help other kids I care about.

[@virginiavallek1654]

​@blueprairiedog not they don't.

[@emercoyne28]

I have huge admiration for the moral courage of these two women for speaking out on this subject. well done Miriam and Julie.

[@spurge83]

Bindel supports the murder of unborn children

[@Wolfe10000]

It doesn't take much bravery. Glad they are saying it, just saying there are subjects where speaking out can have you branded a racist for instance, but this one isn't going to end up with people trying to misrepresent you.

[@blueprairiedog]

No one has the right to a child because children are not possessions. People who believe they are are the least fit to be parents.

[@Transform108]

some people feel if you pay to feed it and are legally liable it screws up - or if you screw up with it, you have some purview to command it.

[@rachel43210]

@@vivienneb6199exactly

[@EIizabethGrace]

@@vivienneb6199 Genuine question: how would you feel about surrogacy if it wasn’t exploitative? If it was done by women who are treated properly, fully consent to it all, and don’t need the money and certainly aren’t desperate for it, but just want to help others out?

[@communistsinthegazebo4457]

Everyone these days are so obsessed with their personal "rights" they don't care how their "rights" impact others or society.

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

Absolutely! Your rights, my rights, stop when it harms another person. It is absolutely disgusting that animals have more protections than babies in and out of utero.

[@Lizzy1ES]

I have long been concerned about the trauma to the baby and I have never heard anyone say this until now. I have adopted children and they will also have had the pain of losing the birth mother but at least no one planned to inflict that wound - least of all me.

[@michawill6599]

And adopted children can have contact with birth family in mass be cases

[@mollymo6229]

There’s a woman born via surrogate who spoke about it in a video and she is against it!

[@RaimundHorn]

a surrogate is not a mom, she's a carrier (an amazing , selfless woman, who carries a baby, who's not genetically related to her for a couple who can't have a baby) a parent is a person who raises the child day after day with endless love and endless patience

[@Lizzy1ES]

@@RaimundHorn I agree that it’s a wonderful and selfless gift to the parents, I suspect most surrogate mothers have no idea of all the primal links that take place between the foetus and the birthmother over those nine months. We as humans don’t know the half of it yet, I suspect. I think to make an active plan to sever those links for a newborn babies is very cruel. Please don’t dismiss what I’m saying without reading up on this - this is not idle speculation it is based on years of reading up the details of the trauma inflicted on my children by what happened to them

[@whittenaw]

@@RaimundHorn but this is such dehumanizing speech. She is not just a carrier. She and the baby bond for nine months, they share food, the baby literally feels what she feels - be it rage, sadness or joy. She's not a carrier. She's more than that. Calling someone a carrier makes it sound like they are transporting an object or a disease

[@Susan.D]

Had no idea this area is so poorly regulated, esp in the US. Once again, it is an insult to injury for children & women.

[@FedericaGalli89]

The US is the only UN country that didn't ratify the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). Nothing surprising here tbh.

[@souxcasa]

@@Susan.D there are literal Facebook pages in the US where you can "adopt" children. The US regulation on childcare, adoption and foster care is practically non existent.

[@ccurrie9672]

Adopters go through a long process to check fitness for parenthood. NO one has a right to a child but every child has a right to be raised in a loving home.

[@veredhasela]

People really think THEY have a right to have a child, but a CHILD has a right as well to be born and rased by his/ her parents and not to be sold!

[@virginiavallek1654]

So the biological father isn't the dad? A surr. Uses the husband's sperm so he IS the biological father and as such the child deserves him in their life

[@virginiavallek1654]

So the biological father isn't the dad? A surr. Uses the husband's sperm so he IS the biological father and as such the child deserves him in their life

[@quan-oh-re2258]

The child is not sold… I was born through surrogacy because my mother cant have carry children. It is not that deep.

[@veredhasela]

@@quan-oh-re2258 You are not responsible. Women in India or Romania who are forced to live in small rooms and carry babies for money, it's OK? How?? Sorry, I don't think so. And there are many cases that women choose to have a surrogate because they waited till late age, because they don't want to be pregnant and other selfish stuff. This is to easy. And the sentence: "they have a right".. No, they don't. Sorry.

[@quan-oh-re2258]

@@veredhasela I can understand the issues surrounding Romania and India, but for women who can’t have children, surrogacy isn’t a bad option. My mom’s old friend went through it, and yes, money was involved, but that’s the case with everything, even adoption. I honestly don’t understand why some people are so upset about it. No, the babies aren’t ‘sold.’ You’re paying the surrogate to care for your baby while it grows inside her, almost like an extended nanny, in a way. When the baby is born, they’re handed over to their parents. It’s really not as complicated as some make it out to be.

[@petragiri2308]

The commodification of Babies. It is evil, every child born has the right to a mother and father to care for them. No one should have the right to buy or sell a baby.

[@triggered577]

@@petragiri2308 The women who bear those children and give them away are the ones who empower this trade though. This industry can’t thrive without them so as long as they are willing to do it, you really can’t do anything about it. Other than outlaw it all together but then ppl will keep bxtching about the declining birth rate.

[@Transform108]

yes. but this is more like commodifying the consenting adult woman's womb for 9 months. The baby is actually the biological descendant of the father arranging that surrogacy. Right?

[@iand654456]

@@Transform108 yes I dated a woman who was a surrogate mother for a few years. The egg and sperm from the parents are put together and hopefully an embryo forms if it does it is then implanted in the surrogate mother.

[@petragiri2308]

@@Transform108 Sometimes that may be the case, but we know that not all the women are doing surrogacy by choice but out of desperation. Same with prostitution there are some women who want to do it, but most are not doing it by choice. Most of these babies grow up without a mother, not something that is ideal.

[@joanneleeson516]

Julie Bindel makes a very important point. When the child finds out that their mother sold them imagine the psychological harm caused to that child.

[@WhateverMan35]

People that have been in foster care as a child don't develop mental health issues because they find out that their parents are scum. You are over exaggerating the issue because you are imposing your own personal feelings. The saying "blood is thicker than water" is nonsense.

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

Not that I'm exactly a fan of surrogacy but I think that very much depends upon how you broach the subject. You can make anything sound bad if you really want to. Then it will more likely have a negative connotation. However, taking the alternative approach to make it a good thing and it's no more traumatic than being adopted. Looking at it as slave labour and it's a negative. Point out that the mother was being paid for an unbelievably generous job she was doing and it becomes a positive.

[@souxcasa]

​​@@FC-PeakVersatility there are indicators that adoption can be traumatic. I do agree that it helps how you broach the subject but we should also take into account the trauma that comes with being rejected by a parent even if you end up with good parents after. There would be more trauma should you end up with bad parents and this absolutely happens. There hasn't been much research done into these areas at all because people have made assumptions and have been happy with those assumptions. Surrogacy adds a layer of trauma to the surrogate as well, not to say mothers that give up babies for adoption don't experience it as a trauma but with surrogacy there is a lot of area for abuse

[@tracyaf6084]

They at best sell an egg. Similar to blood/sperm/organ donation. Surrogates are almost never carrying a child that is genetically related to them anymore.

[@matthewclegg950]

Tell that to Michael Jackson's children.

[@tammyschilling5362]

That last part is the truth: they don't care. They don't even care about the baby. They just want what they want.

[@lily_m3538]

They want what they want when they want it. Lots of examples of wealthy same-sex couples around the UK that purchased their babies overseas.

[@Pomoscorzo]

@@tammyschilling5362 For many people, a child is a status symbol and a proof of personal success and their own alleged mature, selfless attitude. The fact that they're willing to literally buy one shows how emotionally bankrupt they are despite their protestations that they "love" the child.

[@lauraweaver91]

How is it that most everyone understands why buying an organ even for life saving reasons would be a morally bad thing to do yet buying a whole human being for mere gratification is not as obviously wrong to many people?

[@barbaralucas2375]

All about adults/money not children.

[@matthewclegg950]

Divorce courts have this contentious issue. Never about the children but about adult possession.

[@rachel43210]

If society wants a Handmaids Tale comparison, they can find it in the surrogacy industry

[@andrewhotston983]

Yet another situation where wealthy people won't take No for an answer.

[@Omega30t2RG]

First right of every person is to be with their natural mother.

[@virginiavallek1654]

Not if the mother is unfit. Just bc u birthed a kid doesn't mean u deserve it or it's your right. I sign a contract u sign a contract. If u back out in literally any other contract you're punished. Same needs 2 b here. Pay back ALL the money, pay for emotional damage to the couple she screwed over, no c.s, dad gets rights and visitation, no gov assist. Then fahter than has the right to file for full custody as he should

[@RandomWandrer]

There are terrible women squeezing out kids every year. How is this better than lovely infertile couples desperate to raise children with love and care?

[@Omega30t2RG]

​@@RandomWandrerThe loving couple isnt the first priority with regards to surrogacy. The first priority is that every child should be with its natural mother. If a mother is unfit to care for her child,then adoption is the way to go for the loving couple to have a child.

[@barbaragraceful]

The drugs they give to whomever is producing the egg(s) also predisposes the patient to later cancer, a much undertold aspect of all this

[@caliconservative20]

In American society, animals are protected better than babies and the unborn. 😢 just because we CAN do these things doesn't mean we SHOULD be doing them.

[@wolfhugs2221]

Pretty sure anyone involved in AR in the US would disagree with this. For farm animals in the US, like in the UK, may as well be in hell.

[@tommcfadden5232]

Perhaps you are referring to pets and not all animals. 😊

[@Ashakat42]

@@caliconservative20 There is no such thing as the unborn. There's a baby and there's a fetus. The veil of birth is quite an important distinction.

[@taram9409]

Yes absolutely correct! IVF is wrong and unnatural. It is against God's design for us.

[@billmartins5545]

I'm against surrogacy as well as against egg donation. Too risky for the women who are being used, and none of this is in the interest of a future child. Gay men need to accept that their choice to commit to a lifestyle partner who is also male means they as a couple are infertile with a hurdle that can't be overcome (in the way that two women can easily obtain sperm). I don't believe in deliberate single parents, especially not when it's a single male! Imagine you grow up not knowing who your mother is, not knowing your mother, having been brought into the world because a single male who apparently was so unpalatable to women or hated women so much, wanted a child. Same with her gay guys: a child needs their mother, IMO. Only one man will be the father so what if the relationship dissolves, does the man who isn't the father have rights to the child, will he walk away?

[@souxcasa]

@@billmartins5545 there are many reasons why a man might be single and single fathers do exist. Some are widows some are divorced. Single parents are a fact of life and need support not judgment

[@dahliaherrod4301]

@@souxcasa just out of pure academic curiosity, why do these single parents deserve no judgement? Would you offer the same grace if they were a heterosexual married couple?

[@yesterdayseyes]

@@souxcasa oh no, the "don't judge" crowd, you are the worst

[@Dr3Mc3Ninja]

Plenty of special needs babies were abandoned in Ukraine, even though they were created using sperm and eggs from the USA couples who commissioned the baby. A convicted ChoMo and his wife were able to commission a baby in Asia, and they got twins, but they abandoned the baby boy (Down's Syndrome) but took the baby girl home to Australia. He had been convicted of harming little girls. (Baby Gammy 60 Minutes Australia.)

[@blazingstar9638]

True, and there are places in Ukraine that have way high rates of this because they’re living amongst so much toxic industrial pollution. But they still keep doing it because they get paid anyway

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

Denmark has basically eliminated down syndrome by aborting every fetus that is found to have the chromosomal mutation.

[@janeycollins3618]

As an adoptee, nothing compares with genetic belonging. Unfortunately, through adoption or surrogacy no-one can tell how good the parents will be- with all good intentions (like social status). Babies need to know both genetic backgrounds - they also need physical connection in the early years.

[@d.cs.j.2513]

@janeycollins3618 Yes! Even kids who grow up with their bio family, they always ask about their family. Not only the ones they never met, but the ones they see almost every single day.

[@NightinGal89]

As someone who was raised by biological abusive parents, I know a genetic family doesn't guarantee love of any kind

[@annemariegodden]

Thank you, Julie and Miriam, for highlighting this issue. I have watched interviews with children of surrogacy. They grieve for their mothers.

[@Hollyucinogen]

I mean, there are already 50,000 children in the foster care system. Go adopt one of them if you want a baby?

[@NightinGal89]

Obviously people prefer their biological children

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

Unfortunately the majority of those children are already called for by their parents who just happened to be in the prison system, rehab, or have been found guilty of neglect and grotesque abuse. It's not just as simple as walking to the foster home and saying that you will take one of them home with you. The red tape surrounding foster care and adoption centers is incredibly thick and sticky for a reason. We definitely need adoption reform to make it more accessible to legitimately qualified heterosexual married couples.

[@leedlbagginshield8492]

@@NightinGal89 If you can’t conceive with your own DNA, you have to accept it. Natures way of saying no

[@Marly-n8w]

Enlightening discussion, with two of the best minds and consciences (Julie and Miriam) on this issue. Should be required viewing. People just don't realize what's going on, just like with gender transitioning/ideology. The public needs to be informed. Thank you, will share!

[@Nessa3000x]

Swedish public tv, Sveriges television, just made a 3 part documentary ab a Swedish couple in their 70s that bought twins. Babies have been taken by social services.

[@AnisaSev]

Do you have a link to this documentary?

[@Ashakat42]

Why do these people who want a family need newly minted babies? Can't they take care of the millions of children who need homes.

[@PaulaSB12]

Because these kids take work and adopters don’t want that work they want a grateful pound puppy not a child who needs help

[@ridingwilding760]

As a birth mother of an adopted child when I was 19. I wish the adoption option was encouraged over abortion.

[@suedynamic]

Because not about the welfare of children, it’s about me me and my wants.

[@thatsfunny2051]

@@Ashakat42 Because they want newborns, and there are very few newborns to adopt in the UK. Foster children are typically older and tend to have problems that most people don't want to bother with

[@rossshin184]

@@Ashakat42 they want to choose and have a newborn who will have no issues with them being the" dad's"

[@elizabethharris382]

Trafficking in human flesh is immoral. I think everyone needs to consider the rights of the baby in all situations.

[@natalieblack1698]

Adopt, don’t shop. 😉

[@matthewclegg950]

Julie's phrasing is mind opening re abortion. Not pro-abortion but pro-choice to have an abortion. Makes more sense as the first sounds like it's forcing the matter rather than the woman deliberating the matter on her own terms.

[@gjordan5798]

Two brilliant women! Keep speaking

[@FirstLastWinLose]

The Tories were rightly obliterated at the last election, but I was genuinely sorry to see Miriam lose her seat. Her defeat in the GE is, I think, emblematic of the malaise besetting Britain: we are surely doomed unless we rediscover our Christian faith, and support politicians who profess and are guided by theirs.

[@scotlandtheinsane3359]

You need us all to believe in your Jewish fairy tales? It's just not practical, I'm afraid..

[@Argeaux2]

I know plenty of xian women who act as surrogates. In fact, them being good women comes into play. This is not as issue that xianity solves.

[@mountain85]

The incompetence of the society to protect young women and educate them and facilitate them has led to this. Parental property should automatically go to their daughters more than sons so that girls education and health becomes a priority and they don't have to sell their bodies in any way. Adoption after a thorough research of the parents should be legal. Surrogacy must be illegal. It's unethical. It's a big business and I am appalled that doctors can do this for money.

[@franchk8372]

So relieved to hear so well explained something I have deeply felt for a long time. Surrogacy does not sit with me at all. 😢 A woman's body goes through so much carrying a child and giving birth. It is so profound and that gives an understanding of the preciousness of that baby and a connection that one does not comprehend without experiencing it. The health of mothers is so important.

[@Ashakat42]

Also doesn't this bring up worries of slavery?

[@veredhasela]

Imagine growing up and not knowing anything. Where you come from, family history, all the stories, is your character like your mother, is your talent from your father.... This is hard.

[@iiiiiiiiiiii90000000]

@@veredhasela my husband never knew his father. About 7 years ago when he was 30, he met his paternal grandparents via 23 and me. His father passed more than a decade ago so he never got a chance to meet him, but we now visits his grandparents on a regular basis as they don't live too far away from us. Even though he didn't know them until he was 30, he is so much like them in so many ways and nothing like his mother or his mother's side of the family even though they raised him. It's mind blowing.

[@veredhasela]

Amazing. He's lucky to get to know his family. I think it's on some other level this need to explore your roots. And the older you get, you want to know more. ​@@iiiiiiiiiiii90000000

[@BR26-o6o]

Huge respect for Miriam Cates, she argues well on family issues, i hope she keeps speaking up on these ethical and moral issues.

[@iR3vil4te]

Cheeky of the Mail to write up that story as an exclusive when it was Julie’s!

[@lily_m3538]

Well, it's the Mail!

[@blazingstar9638]

I thought that’s what they do lol

[@conferenceclips4940]

😰😰😰 In 50 or so years, people will look back on surrogacy with horror like we now look at slavery. And don’t forget about sperm donors. There are a lot of heart-breaking stories being told about the suffering of donor children.

[@shhh3185]

sadly, many people will defend an animal over a child. People are being dehumanized day by day. The Catholics know the slippery slope we're on with respect to sanctity of life.

[@virginiavallek1654]

They also didn't care about the kids once their born. Literally the show shameless the Gallagher were the definition of old school catholics beliefs when it comes to pregnancy

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

Absolutely! It is absolutely disgusting that animals have more protections and rights in the United States than babies and the unborn. I can talk to my animal loving sister about issues like this and she'll brush it off, but the minute I say anything against animals she jumps down my throat like a vicious rabid wolf. The beastiality in this nation is absolutely abhorrent! And to the commenter on this thread, there are loads of programs available for underprivileged families. They do care about children after they are born. To this day churches historically provide the best care and support for disadvantaged families and children.

[@ana-7421]

@@virginiavallek1654 the Catholics I know who are pro life support missions that also support mom and baby once they get here. That’s more than the pro-choice people I know.

[@MissPrudence100]

The Catholic Church. Has a history of abusing children in their care - they don’t have a place at the table . Ever .

[@piccalillies]

I wanted to have a baby when I was young and my mother said I should become a surrogate. Can you imagine?

[@Silencedogood-r6l]

No, I cannot.

[@katysummer9418]

I find this trade/ business highly concerning. There are so many abandonned children in this world who are in need of a family. Why do those people don't care for those children instead of buying one???

[@Autumn1988]

Puppies aren’t allowed to be removed from their mothers before 8 weeks… why do we take a surrogate baby away from the birth mother straight away?!

[@therealgrimreaper68]

It’s given back to its biological parents straight away.

[@notyourordinarygran]

​@therealgrimreaper68 not necessarily in the case of the mother.

[@therealgrimreaper68]

@@notyourordinarygran it’s given back to the biological mother

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

My sound harsh but we have a real beastiality problem here in the West. Bestiality isn't just human on animal intimate relations, it's also the affections towards the creatures that are taken away from humans. I once heard it said that animal rights brings animals up to the level of humans while simultaneously lowering the value of humans to the animal level.

[@eepmeep8550]

The puppy may die if you take it from the mother before it is weaned, even if you're willing to wake up every two hours to bottle feed it.

[@nicolalloyd3341]

What about all the young girls eggs that are being harvested and no one knows what they are doing with them?

[@irish-u6p]

Yes.harvesting eggs can be risky. And a woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have! It’s not like sperm.

[@Currer.Ellis.Action]

They advertise to uni students to help pay tuition fees. It's disgusting!

[@nicolalloyd3341]

@@Currer.Ellis.Action that’s terrible 😞 what on earth is going on, what is the future for young women, I can see women being rounded up and used as breeding stock and babies sold as a commodity, that’s why they want to get rid of the word mother.

[@therealgrimreaper68]

@@Currer.Ellis.Actiongetting eggs frozen costs a lot which they have to pay for

[@bobsansmal]

I'm still thinking through the ethics of this issue, but it seems to me that a main concern for me would be if, at i assume is the case, the surrogate doesn't get the vast majority of the funds paid. Not that it's all about the money, and yes, the medical side is, understandably expensive also, but, i dunno, if the woman whose body is at the center of all this isn't the highest financially compensated person in all of it, then there is surely something really wrong with it. And then there's the child's rights, and i don't really know how to think about that, but it seems a big complex knot that i doubt i could untie. Thanks (i think) for a difficult, troubling discussion.

[@lilwater3279]

The selling of humans once again.

[@Anna-tj7mp]

My eyes were opened by a book by Kishwar Desai, The Origins of Love. It is harrowing.

[@lindamasonnyc]

Excellent and much needed discussion, Now we need one on abortion and adoption. and fostering

[@irish-u6p]

Best option: child raised with 2 biological parents. Second best: one biological parent plus contact with the other. 3rd best: One biological parent. 4th best: a blood relative 5th best: a legal guardian from the same area as the biological parent(s) 6th best: a legal guardian from the same COUNTRY as the biological parent(s)……..surrogacy raptors??? WAY down my list.

[@PaulaSB12]

I remember a case where a couple adopted a baby girl they knew she had been stolen from a middle class family from another child but they refused to give her back. A la do there is a reason countries stop allowing Americans adopting kids because of abuse murder and rehoming

[@amaryllisequistra]

There is something about carrying a child for9 months that prepares mother and baby for their life together… just having a baby arrive without that engagement i could be setting up for avoidable difficulties. I’ve also read that having a non biological fetus implanted leads to more health complications for the mother. Also, the composition of a mothers breast milk changes in response to the needs of her child, so selling the baby is also short changing the child the healthiest start in life.

[@jimhallinsn1023]

What a squalid business, and being a profitable business, I have no doubt those businessmen will expect a 10% increase in profits and clients year after year.

[@stardust5397]

Julie is an old school feminist who always speaks so much plain commensense

[@manusha1349]

Its cruel to take a newborn away from its birth-mother and (in some cases) to condemn it to a life WITHOUT A BIOLOGICAL FEMALE MOTHER! Males do not nurture in the same way as females! People need their mom's love even in their 40s and 50s, yet we're dooming infants to a mother-less existence 😢

[@MaryCaroline-qt2fz]

I saw a video about a study done of over 4 million adult children whom were born by surrogacy, and brought up by same sex couples. Their outcomes in many aspects of life and personality were much worse than children born by parents naturally. e.g. more likely to suffer from depression, suicidal ideation etc. I think that the people whom buy these babies are only thinking about their own wants, and not geniunely caring about the fate of a baby whom is aware of the fact that they have a biological mother, or father (in the case of a lesbian couple) somewhere about whom they know nothing. Also, being brought up in a same sex couple can leave many of them not able or interested in developing normal relationships like their peers. The impact on these children is devasting and life long.

[@4651adri]

Ok but this is about surrogacy, not same sex couples. Heterosexual couples are the main clients in the business

[@MaryCaroline-qt2fz]

@@4651adri Fair point. But, I do think it's used for same sex couples too. Or, even, single people whom just want to have a baby. I believe that, ideally, a child should have two parents; a mother and a father. Call me old fashioned. That's the way it happens naturally, and just because it's medically possible, I don't think that is necessarily ethical or moral to bring humans into the world like this. That's just my humble opinion.

[@lynn8487]

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that there were more than 4 million with this background already!

[@MaryCaroline-qt2fz]

@@lynn8487 I know. Imagine...

[@christelwilk6166]

@@MaryCaroline-qt2fz I couldn;t agree more with you. It is not a question of being old fashioned. This is all about going against the laws of nature and that is always asking for trouble. If someone really wanted a child, they would adopt one. Although it is understandable that people want their own biological child, there is more ego involved here. And even more so with same sex couples.There is a reason why they can;t create children naturally, because a child needs both real a father and a real mother.

[@MarthaAnthony]

This is factory farming and using women as incubators. The issue underlying this, is why are the women so financially desperate that they would sell their own child? Financial inequality is really being shown up here and taken advantage of.

[@Mrs.CGraves]

A woman may long for a child but there are Natural Instinct, Love, that biology kicks in. When a parent is exhausted and the baby is sick and crying for 3 days.. biology kicks in, it helps to withstand that stress. A non biological mother won’t have that, which ALWAYS scares me.

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

Absolutely! If I hear any of my three children in distress or even stressed I have that jump into action gut response. Even now when they are snuggling on my lap I remember nursing them. They know me, and I know them since conception. The fact that these celebrities are willing to sever that bond with selfish brutality is alarming! I'm surprised that more of these people aren't convicted of child trafficking.

[@therealgrimreaper68]

@@Mrs.CGraves they are given to the biological mother only

[@Bringon-dw8dx]

Those biological drives do kick in even for non biological mums

[@MinoQ-y2j]

@@Mrs.CGraves wow, I have never seen such ignorance in my life! You are a troll

[@Mrs.CGraves]

@@MinoQ-y2j you are a bot

[@daphnegeorge7481]

Thank you for this important testimony. A terrible trade.

[@florenced1649]

So glad someone is talking about this. I have found this subject so upsetting for so long

[@KatherineHugs]

Buying babies is morally questionable, regardless of whether they are biologically related.

[@sofasrus8081]

they need to ask themselves how they'd have felt if they grew up to discover their mother had sold them putting money before their child

[@gillianstapleton8566]

This so needs to be talked about. I think is so unethical. It’s abuse of wonen & children for commercial gain. That case with the gay couple she is the biological mother it was her egg.. they had also said she could maintain contact and then blocked her out. They not alone should have to allow her see her child but lose any parental rights at this point.

[@winterskiU]

Julie kind of flip flops a little here. So surrogacy is not victimless 'even' if the mother wants to do it (i see that we are back to saving women from their own decisions again) as there is a child that may be harmed. But then abortion is okay because the mother will be better off for it? So why does the baby no longer matter in this case? Why do we consider the baby's life in some instances but ignore them in others? It is this kind of inconsistency that opens the door to all sorts of 2nd and 3rd order effects (i.e., such as government sactioned euthanasia like in Canada and currently being pushed in the UK). Christian values being eroded, this is why these issues are banging at the door asking to be let in because all you are left with are value judgements.

[@4651adri]

The point is a woman is giving away her inalienable rights by signing a contract. They're inalienable for a reason. Whilst in abortion you have two subjects wellbeing on the scale and is not that simple. We're not all christians by the way

[@blueprairiedog]

Fetuses are not babies. And medical aid in dying is not euthanasia.

[@Silencedogood-r6l]

@@blueprairiedog “fetuses are not babies” is an opinion. It is a fully formed baby by the second trimester. No woman ever says that she’s “carrying a fetus” or that she’s having a “fetus shower” and you’re invited to attend. Don’t be obtuse in order to defend your position on abortion

[@frumpyducky7403]

​@@Silencedogood-r6lI'm in agreeance with you so I feel terrible for laughing so hard at "foetus shower" 😂🤣. But it's precisely because it's such a ridiculous term that it punctuates how the semantics of "foetus " vs "baby" is such low-hanging fruit for the surrogacy/abortion affirmative.

[@DK-tq3fy]

@@blueprairiedog Not true. But that kind if thinking will enable people to commit great harm.

[@billmartins5545]

Also, there are other ways to be meaningful to a child's life: be an uncle, be a great uncle, volunteer with kids/teens, foster, adopt, be a buddy/"big brother" to a vulnerable child, work with children as a teacher or scout leader or sports coach or tutor, watch your friends' or neighbours' kids.

[@noramaddy4409]

Do-gooders act in the interest of other couples but not the prospective child's interest. Others act for financial gain but not in the prospective child`s interest. Enough data and recorded interviews have been collected from adults born from donor sperm or egg or/and through surrogacy or gestational practice. These all overwhelmingly stated that they wished they had been born and raised by his/her biological mother and father. A child/person needs to know their family`s history, culture and medical.

[@centerfield6339]

Just a small point: we don't try really hard to not take kids from parents because the natural bond is important. We do it because we don't have the right to take them. They're their parents' kids. Not the state's.

[@simmer484]

Very interesting discussion.

[@idakate7]

Putting a positive spin on evil by people who have no moral code.

[@chissstardestroyer]

Why would anybody give up their child to another who's unreliable, morally-speaking? The detail is that if this's adoption, it'd be licit, but this is questionable.

[@LeftLib]

I didn't have an opinion on this topic prior to watching the video. I need to hear the other side before finally making up my mind. But I am very persuaded about the need for the mother and baby to bond after birth and the stories about the exploitation of women are terrible.

[@WhateverMan35]

There isn't really a need for need for the mother and baby to bond after birth unless the mother is going to take care of the infant long term. The infant will not be able know the difference however the it may affect the mother. The example given in the beginning of the video using the dog/pups is a fallacy. The reason as to why there is a time period is because the animals know how to take care of their young, any human inference would make the process of maturing more timely and costly.

[@4651adri]

​@@WhateverMan35wrong. The baby and the mother need each other. Please, look up such concepts as Maternal fetal microchimerism, matrescence and primal wound.

[@WhateverMan35]

@@4651adri It is not needed. The mother may need the infant but the infant can live a normal life without the mother. The thousands of adoption cases, where the baby is taken away a birth, historic societies (such as ancient Sparta) where woman and baby were often separated. Survivors of genocides where thousands of strangers have adopted babies. You can look down a microscope all you want but it won't reflect reality.

[@raina4732]

@@WhateverMan35what about the studies of long term mental health? Seems compelling enough that long term damage (not immediately noticeable in infancy/ childhood) is created.

[@lvt2050]

@@WhateverMan35 mother and baby are already bonded during pregnancy, baby knows mother voice sound, smell etc. However, this connection dosnt guarantee that mother will take care of a child.

[@notalefty999]

I do find surrogacy ghoulish, but why is it that women who participate in immoral trades, whether is surrogacy or prostitution, deemed to be "desperate"? This claim is not routinely made of immoral trades that men disproportionately engage in, such as drug dealing. Wilful participants in immoral trades should be castigated as bad people, not coddled as victims if they happen to be women. I haven't looked into either a lot, but when you hear about university graduates engaging in surrogacy or prostitution, these are not destitute women. Its just easy money.

[@bostaurus1]

@@notalefty999 I guess it's the same as if man sells a kidney

[@notyourordinarygran]

It most certainly isn't easy money. Pregnancy puts immense strain on a woman's body and with the maternal death rates in America, it can be deadly.

[@notalefty999]

@@notyourordinarygran Yes it is. There is no great talent required to bare a child, otherwise the great majority of women would not be able to do it, which obviously they can. Attractive intelligent women can get years worth of income for baring a child as a surrogate if their eggs are the ones used. This is not at the opportunity cost of earning money by other means. That isn't to say baring a child isn't consequential, nor is shagging hundreds of guys for a living. The emotional and physical toll of doing this doesn't make it inherently difficult. It might make it a bad idea, but you could say the same of habitually injecting heroin.

[@black1swan1of.improbability]

Hardly easy money, psychologically or health-wise

[@h0neym00nl0ve0]

do you grow a drug in your body to sell it when it's "ready"? tell me about comparing incomparable

[@CatesbyRuscoe]

Great interview with two principled women.

[@elishevak.8637]

Sorry to say, but political correctness avoids true research regarding the psychological needs of baby/ child to be raised by a mother and a father. We are told that having 2 loving parents is perfect regardless of their gender. This unscientific approach makes surrogacy thrive. One point which was not brought up at all is the racism involved. People choose the eggs/sperm based on superficial genetic traits such as eye/hair/skin colour and height... The "entitlement" to having a baby comes along with the entilelement to a beautiful, perfect baby... As a mother myself, I believe surrogacy should only be used in case of a married man and woman who have medical issues with conceiving. We can see very clearly now how surrogacy has become an awfully sad business which usually exploits poor women.

[@Cotswoldblonde]

What an interesting and important topic. Thank you for covering this topic 🙏🏻

[@gyoparpavai3663]

I have not seen any comment about infertile heterosexual couples, who would like to be parents they have their own embryos, however, they cannot carry the child by themselves (hysterectomy, cancer, constant miscarriage, MRKH, problems with uterus, cervix etc.) They just would like to have children as everyone else... and if people say adoption... I ask why those people did not choose adoption then. If they have a friend or sister, mom, or a random nice surrogate who would like to help for truly reasonable expenses (food, vitamins, cloths,travel expenses to scans,hospital, childcare during appointments, cleaner to avoid chemicals, pregnancy pillows etc.) I agree that it should be regulated, however, there are existing truly helpful people who help and they not selling babies, they "baby sitting" embryos for 9 months (altruistic way) and also they can spend time together, the baby can hear intended parents voice, touch, love, and even smell (I was surprised too, but I read it recently).

[@yesterdayseyes]

That situation almost never happens. it's just a fantasy to make you accept human trafficking

[@oliviamaynard9372]

Humans are not puppies. Babies need parents not just mothers.

[@ktwashere5637]

thank you for this. Noone has a RIGHT to a child. it is an extraordinary privilege. Also this habit of using donor sperm. What are the long term implications. Time and time again we see people conceived this way really suffer with their identity.

[@andrewcharlton2709]

Problem is with this debate is the contradiction of womens body and choice. Surrogate mothers don't need to give away babies

[@4651adri]

@@andrewcharlton2709 the problem is surrogate mothers give away inalienable rights by signing a contract.

[@AmyDawson-s1d]

@@andrewcharlton2709 they do if the law in that country says they do.

[@andrewcharlton2709]

@@AmyDawson-s1d I meant they were not forced to be a surrogate mother

[@aliceobrien8390]

@@andrewcharlton2709 do thay paye tax on the money thay get paid

[@skadiwarrior2053]

@@andrewcharlton2709 How do you know. Did you actually listen. It's nothing but exploitation of the mother and the buying and selling of children. And we thought the slave trade was abolished.

[@ridingwilding760]

So it’s what was originally an act of kindness that has become warped.

[@OlliePeach]

The problem with this discussion is that no one makes the clear distinction between surrogate mothers and gestational carriers.

[@blazingstar9638]

What does that mean

[@Mrs.CGraves]

Many are the same. Sometimes it’s a different egg, used for fertilization. But it’s the same person usually.

[@Mrs.CGraves]

@@blazingstar9638a Gestational carrier is the woman who carries a couples baby. It’s not genetically her child, she just gestates the baby. A Surrogate is a gestational carrier, and sometimes egg donor.

[@OlliePeach]

@@blazingstar9638 a surrogate carries the child created using her own egg, i.e the baby is her own biological child AND she carries it. A gestational carrier carries the pregnancy but the baby she is carrying is made from the egg and sperm of the parents she is carrying for or from donor sperm/egg, regardless the child she is carrying is not related to her biologically, essentially “womb for hire”. Obviously very different consequences for the resulting child.

[@DianeEwart]

There are problems either way and the discussion DOES cover this and the different impacts. However in both cases the baby is sold , a woman carrying the baby is put at risk, and the genetic link to the baby is broken. Appalling

[@iloveminiapplepies]

In my country it's a serious crime, cause it's a human trafficking case. I agree with that 100%.

[@sovereigns757]

I knew someone who had 11 rounds of IVF using donor eggs. She got the children that she wanted from a clinic in Spain. Was it ethical to give her that many rounds of the treatment? Was it good for her health. This was nearly 18 years ago and it was £10k a time then and the egg donor got 800 euros

[@leedlbagginshield8492]

Plus egg donation in Spain is anonymous. The children will never find out who their bio mother is

[@eepmeep8550]

The reason you don't take a puppy from it's mother before it's weaned is that a) hand rearing puppies is labour intensive and risky to the puppy's health and b) puppies need to be socialised with other puppies and dogs so they don't develop behaviour issues like biting too hard

[@RDCFemmes]

So what about women who go the adoption route rather than terminating the pregnancy?

[@Messier45_Pleiades]

Julie Bindel is a hero

[@lovable_misanthrope]

How is prostitution illegal but surrogacy legal?

[@stellamariayates3776]

I would be interested in hearing the opinion and experiences of the children involved in this venture. I hope they come to terms with it all and do not feel psychological issues from it.

[@leedlbagginshield8492]

There is a debate between a woman and a gay man about surrogacy on youtube. The woman was conceived via egg donor and birthed by a surrogate in the US. Egg donation and surrogacy are illegal in Germany. To summarise it, she was rather against surrogacy. I can send you the link but it’s in German. It’s a great debate and the woman makes some good points, though

[@George-vf7ss]

How much do they cost? Are there any discount cupons available?

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

We don't do it to puppies because we don't want the bother of playing mother every 2 hours

[@raina4732]

My aunt’s neighbor bred puppies and said the ones fully weaned from the mother lived longer, so she doesn’t adopt them until they are completely eating on their own and also aren’t cuddling the mother either. They’re a bit older when she adopts them out, but she said they tended to be significantly healthier once they got into adulthood than the dogs weaned earlier with less physical contact with the mother. I don’t know, I don’t have a dog and wouldn’t ever get an animal from a breeder, but interesting anecdotal info.

[@tommcfadden5232]

@@raina4732Makes sense on an intuitive level, at least to me.

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

@@raina4732 for dogs, 12 weeks instead of 6 or 9 makes a tremendous difference. This is the sort of breeder to buy from. Way different start to life than coming from a puppy mill.

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

@@raina4732 apparently youtube's algorithm doesn't want me to congratulate or praise your aunt's neighbour 🙄 my more detailed response is missing

[@blazingstar9638]

@@FC-PeakVersatility that’s so annoying when that happens!

[@sofasrus8081]

maternal deprivation is a deep psyvchological wound to a child. This was always understood so how come everyone is pretending it wasn't

[@lynn8487]

Though it is only in the last century or so that death in childbirth has come down significantly.

[@NouraZahle]

People have a drive to have biologic offspring. Most people aren’t angels who would want to raise someone else’s child. They want to be part of the experience of parenthood where you get to see a new creation from yourself and your partner. It’s a hard question. It’s easier when a friend or relative is willing to be the surrogate parent so there’s less of a power dynamic for a more ethical process.

[@UmmUmarHamzah]

Surrogacy is not permissible in my religion and I am so happy for that

[@MinoQ-y2j]

😂 which religion would that be? The one that allows multiple wives? Let me tell you some bitter truths, it does happen in that religion too, but they hide it from judgmental people like yourself!

[@Justagirlok101]

Once a woman has been pregnant, she carries the DNA of that child in her blood and organs for life, just this alone indicates how complex this issue is. Modern surrogacy is little more than human trafficking.

[@MaleOrderBride]

So much gold in this interview!!!👏👏👏

[@RDCFemmes]

So we care so much about children but if they are in the womb then it's a women's right. This is highly hypocritical.

[@MarthaAnthony]

I went to a mother's group with a gay couple and their surrogate. The dad did his absolute best to care for the baby - if anything, the bub was overfed. But I think he truly struggled to bond with the baby the same way as the mums, and I think he felt overwhelmed and underqualified, even more than the rest of us. He felt guilty about the baby not having breastmilk and the bub was sick a lot. As much as we tried to welcome him, I think he felt a really big chasm around all these women breastfeeding and making very instinctual judgements about what the baby needed. I think there is a bond with the baby you are pregnant with and it does carry over when they are young.

[@fraserreal8496]

Brilliant discussion!

[@RandomWandrer]

I guess I'm the only person who sees a place in this world for surrogacy. Our friends were unable to have children. Surrogacy is illegal in my country. So our friends paid a lady in Karkiv to surrogate for them. They were blessed with twins. They stayed in ukraine with the mother and baby for some months before returning to this country with the twins. The twins are 7 now. They are adored and not traumatised. And their parents are better than most (no tablets or screens. Always outside activities. Healthy. Happy. ) I'm sorry, but how is paying someone to carry a baby different to spending 100k on fertility treatment. Sure there's a wrong/exploitive way to do this. But blanket condemning surrogacy is wrong. Side note. They got her out of Ukraine when the war begun

[@murielbrown3013]

I can't agree with this take on abortion...what about the rights of the unborn child? What about the longterm negative mental, emotional, and physical consequences that the woman may be unaware of at the time? Abortion has become a very slippery slope, which in part has helped bring about this whole surrogacy nightmare.

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

Projected to rise in 2023? Am I living in a different timeline? Perhaps Julie meant to say between 2023 and 2033 🤔

[@miriamgp9881]

@FC-PeakVersatility I thought it meant we don't have final figures for 2023 yet, who knows...

[@Beachwavessun]

Agree. Puppy example says it all.