The Celestial Toymaker Explained

[@MRWALL.i6732]

It's a shame he never become a recurring villain in the series, but if he did, we wouldn't have had a big anticipated threat for the 60th, also he would be the perfect villain for a Doctor Who video game.

[@lasseehrenreich5502]

I agree we shouldn't erase or excuse art with problematic elements instead we should acknowledge and learn from it. You, Jessie Gender, Council of Geeks, and Steve Shives are the only people I have seen understand that.

[@em100]

Cool video, I've watched the 1st doctor episode and listened to the Nightmare Fair and Solitare. I bought Solitare when it was on sale and agree that the prices of the big-finish audiobooks are ridiculous!

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

It's why I do this. The price puts a lot of people off trying it in the first place so you need a risk free way of sussing it out. Mine was piracy. Borrowed a hard drive from a friend, found the folder marked 8th doctor audio plays and fell in love. Don't want to recommend that so im shilling for big finish and Spotify instead

[@idleishde6124]

I wish more people had the point of view that you shouldn't ban problematic material from the past, but watch and learn from it. Have an intro explaining why its bad, rather than shaming people who can maturly watch the show, understand the problematic element but separate what was acceptable at the time from the modern context. Banning things stops learning. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

That's actually the perspective of a lot of people in progressive circles. Out of the many progressive people I know I can't think of one who would want all problematic television from the 20th century destroyed. Personally I think the sweep everything embarrassing under the rug approach is more of a corporate mentality, to appear more progressive than they actually are.

[@greenberry6019]

Very good. Makes me wonder how well other characters who are omnipotent but bound by specific rules from the expanded canon could work in the show. Like the Word Lord. I guess we already had the Dream Lord, that was fun.

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

I'd like to see the 11 make the jump to new who. Theres the time war but that hasn't stopped them before

[@charlestownsend9280]

​@@thatDamnAusWhoFanI agree, especially after the big finish 60th. Toymaker has a lot of work to do to rival the 11 for best 60th villain.

[@Ninjaman1994]

I hope you can do a video on the Big Finish Doctor Who 60th Anniversary Once and Future. I listened to all current episodes and I've been really enjoying it.

[@akshaytrayner1960]

Great vid

[@Underworlddream]

From WIKI "Celestial Empire" is the literal translation of one of the many name of China, with that in mind I thought the "Celestial" in Celestial Toy Maker was a play on word like he a super power Cosmic Toymaker and dress like what the people he name after (Or maybe they are name after him like the Doctor is the Origin of the word Doctor).

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

Regardless celestial was also used as a slur for all Asian people in the united states and australia. I thought it worth bringing up

[@yuri7885]

New upload, *LET'S GOOO!!!!!*

[@scarletfatefan8793]

If you are looking for a way to experience the original story, KZbinr Dinopuff did a really great animated reconstruction of the celestial toy maker- it’s on KZbin and I highly recommend it as it’s pretty creepy and suspenseful

[@SethAurelius94]

I bet the celestial toymaker was the person that invented "THE GAME"

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

How dare you make me lose the game!

[@TheFakeGooberGoblin]

3:06 Why is the Catholic priest outfit not respectful to Asian society? Satire of how the biblical God plays immoral games in Job hence Vatican priest fit? “Celestials” in Catholicism refers to the hierarchy of beings in charge of maintaining the stability of God’s creation… They also have a history of adoration for astrology up until the inquisition suppressed it to the dismay of the believers and so such designs were not uncommon amongst practicing Catholics. And by the way as someone who’s beliefs are adjacent to Catholicism, not only to I welcome such satire and am not upset by it, I actively enjoy consuming it because of the thought provoking nature of it and I know my beliefs are not beyond speculative critique. Also “the Mandarin” (toy makers other name used as a reason it’s offensive to Asian culture) if you looked up the definition of the word mandarin, refers to an official or authority figure and the language is named AFTER this title not before. And is also of Portuguese origin not Chinese. Since you wanna avoid offending people’s cultures so bad given ur whole disclaimer segment, im surprised you were so quick to look at European culture and write it off as “Looking like an stereotype of Asian culture to be a reference to anything else”. Your the one saying your trying to avoid stereotyping, yet all it took was you seeing a silk robe plants on it to assume it was Asia as if everywhere else on earth hasn’t done the same thing since the dawn on time. Wanna know why that kind of clothing disproportionately associated with Asia when present in the Americas, the Middle East, and Europe?? Stereotypes… that in an effort to call out, you ended up perpetuating. Basically just told Asian people

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

Yeah that bit did go on for a bit. This particular out fit appeared in another serial, "Marco Polo". It was worn by an actor portraying an Asian character. In that section I said racism is bad, it leads to bad things, so if an Asian person says something is racist against Asians you should probably listen to them. I'm not sure how that triggered you it seems reasonable to me. I also said that it doesn't matter if you have bigoted views, but how you react when someone points it out to you. Instead of listening and self reflecting you've doubled down, and written a long, rolling comment about how offended you are at me doing my due diligence when approaching a controversial character.

[@TheFakeGooberGoblin]

@@thatDamnAusWhoFan You are stereotyping people in an effort to avoid being a bigot. Do you not hear urself? Apparently your only willing to listen to others opinions if they aren’t Catholic? As when I told you I am Catholic and this is actually targeted at my beliefs, you conveniently ignore “just listening to me”. So which is it, do you want to “just listen” to the people who are offended by this satirical portrayal of multiple cultures, only one of whom you address? Imagine saying things like floral robes and astrology is clearly Asian culture when every culture through time has had those same concepts and designs, and thinking by perpetuating this stereotype your somehow being thoughtful. I like that you see I say this is more of an unfair portrayal of Catholicism than anything and you may have unintentionally and unfairly stereotyped Asian culture with designs that they shouldn’t be associated with, and instantly took a position as if I’m some right wing nut trying to defend being awful. Do people like that actually comment? You also stereotyped unfairly as well due to doing as little research as you did and going “oh it’s a robe with flowers, must be from Asia” as if that isn’t the very stereotyping your claiming to try to avoid? Bigoted views ARE BAD, and you have them. Rather socially acceptable or not, rather twisted in a way you can feel comfortable about ur insensitivity and ignorance or not, still bad. If you did due diligence, you’d have found out it has more parallels with Catholic and astrological culture (which Asia partially shares w us as it’s an ancient global culture and daoism is extremely parallel to astrology).

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

Oh my goodness, im so so sorry i dodnt consider the catholics. They were such an opressed minority in the 1800s in Ireland. These days your church does a lot more opressing than being oppressed. You got the pope to telling people not to use condoms in the most aids ridden parts of the world, their continued bigotry towards queer folk, not to mention their continued efforts against a woman's right to her own body, and thats saying nothing about the constant and continued abuse of children in the church's care. How many children have been raped by a priest mate? but you are so opressed mate. I respect your right to your beliefs but don't throw stones in glass houses. Yours is particularly brittle. Considering the costume was reused from a Chinese character from a previous serial and the outfit is commonly perceived to be Chinese and you really have to read into it to see it as a dig at Catholicism than I think you're really reaching.

[@TheFakeGooberGoblin]

@@thatDamnAusWhoFan The outfit is more commonly perceived to be Chinese by YOU. Thought to be Chinese by another show, that was also bigoted and unfairly stereotyping. Congrats brother, in an effort not to be appear biased you just made your lack of principle and happiness discriminating against certain groups as long as popular enough loud and clear. I am not actually Catholic, just wanted to see what you’d say. You are a hypocrite.

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

I fully admit that i am biased. Thats why i said to listen to asian people. I did, and they find yellow face and the toy makers whole deal to be somewhat racist, so thats what i said and you got offended. How about you grow some thicker skin. Have a spoon full of concrete and harden up so you won't get triggered so easily.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

I don't think you pissed of everyone world & people views change with time and often for the better but thing do repeat. We often recognise them as they are, the same old issues in a different form but brand new unrelated issues to the past. (think how many episodes/stories that follow the same story premise). So time it takes fresh eyes to spot the obverse because we are so use to following the same old practices that always has been. We all like easy repeatable actions that we can do without having to think too hard about it. This is most people at some point find it so hard to change and i can say with age that a new approach to an old problem can be fascinating or completely confusing. Why change something that works when the new solution is so much more complicated. This is often to address new/old issues that had little affect in the past but have be found to have tangible affect or simply make it more flexible to get better finial results...... sorry went off in bit of a tangent. Don't be afraid to raise issues as some has to do it. If no one points them out, we maybe doom to repeat past mistakes or create new ones.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

anyway..... i really enjoyed this video, great to have a refresher before the 60th special (i have not read/listen to much of the extend who verse)

[@robertnett9793]

I don't understand how the costume of the original Toymaker should be racist. I don't see how they are mocking - Chinese, or Mandarin people. There is no insulting behaviour. In fact the only thing tying the character to Mandarin culture is that he happens to wear a costume akin to traditional clothing of that region. Otherwise it's a trickster god messing with humans for fun. Neither is he made out to be from this culture nor is there some 'Mandarin people do that too' kind of vibe. It's just a fancyful costume for a flamboyant character.

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

It can be difficult to understand how and why minority groups find some things offensive, from the perspective of the majority. I don't know your nationality or ethnicity but my perspective is of a white Australian. I didn't get it either so I read what Asian groups in the uk said about it, and I listened to what Asian fans had to say today. That's how I reached my conclusions on this. I just had to listen. Its that easy.

[@robertnett9793]

@@thatDamnAusWhoFan Ah. Ok.

[@raymondvalko5461]

Gee thanks for wasting my time

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

Thanks for the interaction

[@raymondvalko5461]

@@thatDamnAusWhoFan dude I clicked on a video for an explanation of the toymaker. And half that video was a shpeel on racism. I understand that he was a racist depiction and that's not good, but what did you add to the discussion?

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

Not even half it was like a minute maybe 2. I explained that it's racist, why it's racist and that it's ok to still like it provided you understand why and how it's racist. I included that bit because in doctor who circles, when these episodes come up, theres a bunch of people denying other people's concerns as if it's a personal attack on them for liking it. There's also the assumption that people who take issue with racism in who want to censor it and throw the offending episodes into a fire, which is simply not the case. I thought it would be nice to dissuade that notion. I also like to i form my audience so they arent going into these episode blind. Maybe I did take it a bit far, but did you know its possible to skip through parts of the video. Double tap the screen a few times

[@HOTD108_]

The comically sad music you played when talking about bigotry and racial genocides was grossly inappropriate and extremely undermining of the gravity of those horrors.

[@thatDamnAusWhoFan]

Hey thanks for the feed back. I take this sort of stuff very seriously and I wasn't trying to undermine anything. It was serious issues I was discussing that need to be talked about and I chose music tonally different from the rest of the video to reflect that. Originally I was going to have no music at all but it sounded a bit jarring from the rest of the video.