The Cloud Manipulation Theory in FF7 Rebirth

Having finished Rebirth recently I still keep thinking about the games ending and after hearing a theory about the ending from Maximillian Dood and the Easy Allies it appears the games ending is much more grim than we realized.
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[@SomnusShinra]

This is full Nojima Storytelling for sure... I'm so tired of people blaming Nomura for every single thing when they didn't even bother to investigate deep into FF7 Lore. This Ending is so fascinating...

[@un_known5895]

agreed with this statement 100% it's stupid that people are just saying "lul FF7 has been nomura'd" just becasue whenever they see something with black cloaks they think it's ruined because of Kingdom hearts. i'm chalking it up to people who just can't read or have the illiteracy of a blind badger as they don't know what the difference between a writer, a producer and a director is.....

[@imamimemotherf6938]

"You went full Nomura" "You went full Undertaker" "You cooked as full Rock" "You went full skibidi and rizzed" "You edged till gooning full on Genesis" English will die because of you

[@phrofile3613]

As a Nomura fan, I'd love for the game to be Nomura'd

[@jaysea838]

I never engage with people who make the Nomura or KH references / comments because anyone that knows the history (/spends a modest amount of time to read / learn) would know otherwise. Either they are willfully ignorant or simply trolling and I have no patience for either when it comes to this topic. It doesn’t help that you have “credible” (to the community) sources that have made videos / content to argue otherwise.

[@magilas8485]

@@imamimemotherf6938 Doth thou desire us to talk thus?

[@NastyNate865]

I like this theory because the whole accepting death was one of the original themes of ff7. I think it was Sakiguchis mom who died around that time and he had trouble accepting her death.

[@BLa-lq2bs]

In the Temple of the Ancients when you’re learning about Jenova they describe her as “A deceiver who stole the faces of the dead”. Why wouldn’t she do that with Aerith? The theory makes a lot of sense

[@dave_the_slick8584]

Nanaki sensed her. Until anyone can actually explain that In a way that makes sense, it's a stupid theory.

[@Final-Ts]

@@dave_the_slick8584 Two thoughts about that... #1. Who's to say the Aerith that Nanaki sees is the genuine spirit of Aerith, where the Aerith that Cloud sees is not (is Jenova). Aka the fake one talking with Cloud and the real spirit talking to Red. OR #2. As BLa-lq2bs said. “A deceiver who stole the faces of the dead". Maybe Red is being played by Jenova as well. Who's to say it's not possible? The Cetra warned of this in the quote. Why would they have put that quote in the game then?

[@S.V-22]

With all respect. In my opinion, that doesn’t make sense at all especially that Aerith knew about Jenova. That white materia we saw has all her memories (OG). She won’t allow Jenova to take an image of her and play around Cloud. She is a cetra after all. Hope the ultimania clears at least a bit of all this mess.

[@dave_the_slick8584]

@@Final-Ts As a red herring. Always defer to the simplest explanation first.

[@brandonmeadows7972]

People also seem to forget that in the OG game Red XIII is the one of the characters that gets played into giving the Black Materia.

[@danielmunroe1423]

Im played the og in 97 when i was 13 years old. This game was my teenage years. Both remake and rebirth for me have been an incredible experience. I am so excited for part 3. The music is god tier. Cloud is so far gone and more bonkers than the og in this and i love it. Cannot wait for part 3.

[@Wesker47584]

Funny I played Remake when I was 13 and I enjoyed rebirth a lot as well, looking forward to the third game in the trilogy.

[@zzstrife4925]

What if, when Sephiroth says “you know I killed her, dont let her fool you, who is she?” He’s actually referring to Aerith at the end of the game? And Cloud and us as the player think he’s trying to turn us against Tifa as a red herring, as we clearly go through multiple moments where Tifa proves herself? I dont know just thinking aloud

[@andrewjohnson8919]

That would be interesting, if he didn't try to kill her in the game

[@Brandwein42]

I have been having the same thought, which leads to me also thinking there might be one version of Sephiroth that wants to help Cloud in his own twisted way (maybe the same one who explains the timelines and rescues him from the Lizard chapter boss)

[@oddoverhere]

It's a good idea, but I think someone said the direct JP translation says "you know I killed Tifa" and idk

[@viralshark]

Yeah, no. Thats a massive stretch.

[@zzstrife4925]

@@oddoverhere ah didnt know that, huge news thank you

[@slshandyservices6720]

I was a little confused by the switching when Aerith dies. But, this makes total sense.

[@pedrovskxd9963]

I like the theory, but the fact that Cloud's sword has that kind of rainbow glow related to the different timelines stuff when he tries to stop Sephiroth, along with the rift in the sky he sees in the end make me strongly believe he is actually seeing her, but the one from the different timeline he created when he clashed with Sephiroth earlier. It's like he's living in 2 timelines at the same time somehow. I do think the way they showed Aerith when Cloud sees her while everyone else is mourning her is kinda creepy, so maybe in the end it's gonna be a mixture of the timeline stuff and his imagination? Lol One thing I like though is the fact that it seems like the scene in part 3 when Tifa helps Cloud find out the truth about him and Zack will also involve him finding out the truth about Aerith, which will probably include him remembering his words when she dies, along with us finally seeing him laying her body on the lake. It will definitely be a very long and emotional moment in part 3.

[@TGW-Studios]

For that rainbow effect, there are moments where it appears even though the timelines have shifted/merged already, and sephiroth did confirm that there was a confluence of worlds when he stabbed Aerith, which btw could mean all of them or just 2 who knows. Anyways, even if we assume that the rainbow effect is showing the world where he saved Aerith that still wouldn't make her alive because once again that contradicts most of the stuff we learn through this game about the worlds merging and keep in mind that at the end, Aerith says she will pray and stop "METEOR" like that is the bad thing that is happening, Now why would she say that if Sephiroth does not have the Black materia?? hmm.. and I noticed something back in remake if you go back to the end, when sephiroth sucks in the Meteor a rift/light or whatever appears on the sky very similar to how it does on Rebirth's end and he even does the same hand gesture when he says that the worlds merging is starting so that is also weird.

[@Astrid-jx5dw]

In OG Tifa had to piece together Clouds into one whole self in the lifestream. So I simply thought he must have created different scenarios of what-if’s and I could’ve’s, hence multiple Aeriths images in his head. Like you said, I also think that we’ll see the lake burial in the part 3 when Cloud finally remembers her death as a real thing as well as Zack’s last moment and becomes true self

[@renaudtheunissen8935]

I think I read some pointing out that colors have meaning linked to “worlds”. Every time a new world is created, we saw a kind of rainbow light. When Cloud deviates sephiroth’s sabre, we saw the rainbow light and it appears again when Aerith joins Cloud to fight against Sephiroth. I begin to wonder if she’s alive in the “in between world”. Cloud continues to see her, as he can sees other worlds even when he’s still in the rebirth one. Potentially due to his jenovas cells . He also has all these personalities (cloud as clone, cloud as soldier, etc..) from other worlds all in the same body, triggered by events (sephiroth appearing, Tifa’s interventions, Zack’s reminiscence…). Let’s see what’s next in the next episode;-)

[@Pparty_Gaming]

One thing I keep thinking in all this theory crafting (which I love)…is that this game wasn’t made just for OG players. It was completely re written for the wider modern audience while also trying to keep the OG players emotions in mind.

[@richizzle39]

Not seeing the water burial is very key. It was foreshadowed in the remake so it is definitely playing a role in the overall story.

[@sonic4life]

This honestly makes a lot of sense, there were moments throughout the game where I felt that Cloud was being manipulated by not only Sephiroth, but Jenova. The whole ending with Aerith was off, but there were also things that she said that made me think it was her. Idk, Nomura is a pretty Jenova like being himself, he loves to fool the fans. But if that truly isn't Aerith (like I'm leaning towards), Cloud's experience coukd be an extension of what fans originally went through with Aerith's death, and Nomura,or whoever made this creative decision, is playing off that. Either way, I'm excited for the last installment, but I've been having a feeling that it wouldn't end well for Cloud.

[@Strafio]

I can see where this theory is coming from, and if the story was otherwise like the OG with none of the multiverse stuff then it would be pretty compelling. But because of the multiverse stuff it doesn't really stack. 1) In the multiverse sequences, we see that "overall Aerith" is able to move her consciousness across different realities. So it isn't surprising that she'd be able to connect with Cloud in one of realities in this way. 2) When she's walking around them while they're repairing the plane, Red/Nanaki senses her (suggesting it's not just in Cloud's head) 3) Since the rest of the team have played a role in the multiverse malarkey (e.g. Fighting to change fate in the first game) that again suggests that it's not just his delusion/genova trickery.

[@rsoxboy]

I think it would be an unforgivable mistake for Square to tarnish the fan's perception of Aerith by turning her into a Jenova illusion. That would be an infuriating treatment given to one of the most beloved video characters of all time.

[@thehoneybunempress1664]

The fact that even the rebirth ultimania is crytpic about what version of Aerith this is supports this theory. Also, the theme song, No Promises To Keep...Nojima confirmed Aerith was singing about ALL her loved ones, not just Cloud or Zack, because that suited her character. It's why we saw the avalanche trio at the end of the song. So again, why is she just showing up to Cloud and bidding him farewell and not the others when they're grieving? I wouldnt go as far to say it's selfish, but it really is odd. Maybe it really IS jenova/sephiroth or maybe just to reinforce Cloud as the unreliable narrator. Either way, i love it.

[@laithamekir5778]

I call OG Aerith Aeris, and the new timelines Aerith so we keep track 😉

[@jayjaysheroah2485]

Watched and rewatched max's and easy allies podcast multiple times i love it

[@residentmagnum]

the evil whispers made a clone of Aerith that is creepy. Jenova is a god like entity so the evil Rakshasas in Hindu mythos to control those with Jenova Cells

[@SickSoundingStuff]

As I'm watching you talk about how Aerith could be Jenova I'm remembering the part where she says if she's in trouble she'll, "send up smoke." Sephiroth burnt down his hometown. There could be some evil undertones there that on the surface sound innocent. Interesting stuff.

[@AcappellaGamer]

It’s 99.9999% a Jenova version of Aerith. One main reason is that we need this element of Jenova manipulation to appear somewhere in the narrative and this is the perfect place for it. It’s makes no sense to allude this hard to it and never utilize it. And of course the many many details you mention in your vid, the fact she’s creepy af , and her theme song is literally subsumed by Jenovas during the final fight . But the thought that really proves it to me is that the real Aerith would never want to create a situation in which cloud is continuing to drift farther away from the party and especially from Tifa. She’s know clouds only salivation is through Tifa and his bonds with his friends . Yes - one can make the argument that she’s keeping her vision alive to cloud so he doesn’t break down mentally from not being able to save her . But that’s plausible purposeful confusion to throw us off . if she’s actually alive in some capacity why not just explain this to him and the party and how it is that she’s alive ? The real Aerith would want to explain to cloud what is actually going on - and make sure the party (the friends she would literally do anything for including lay down her life ) also understood so that they are not disturbed and become even further estranged from clouds weird behavior. Leaving everyone in the dark creates major cognitive dissonance and distrust within the party. The wills that seek to seperate cloud from everyone else and sow distrust are Sephiroth’s and Jenova’s . leaving cloud in an even worse delusion plays perfectly into their master plan. The real Aerith would know that cloud could handle her death ( she primed him over and over not to blame himself no matter what happened ) and would also know that even if he did blame himself and broke apart, that Tifa and the others would somehow reach him again as they did in the OG. The only way to make him potentially unreachable is to make him trust fully in a false Aerith ….aka JENOVA

[@Misfiring89]

"clouds only salivation is through Tifa" 🤣🤣🤣 Anyway, if I was Cloud I would've gone mad long ago.

[@JustinW332]

Yeah this is partly the conclusion I came to. When Cloud smiled at Aerith you could see his eyes. Everything feels off. It's more of a disturbed kind of smile.

[@Joshiepoo2525]

Although I do think they buried her in that underground lake, that’s not where they’re supposed to bury her. Even in the Remake ending flashes, we see her being buried in the above ground lake. I think they moved it down there to mess with us.

[@viralshark]

I think the invisible Aerith is just lifestream Aerith, who acts different because shes seen so much more than any other version of Aerith. Plus shes dead, so ya know, that might make you wanna act a little different. Consider Aeriths song to Cloud, specifically the lyric, "take my hand and believe that we will be together evermore". At the end, Cloud takes her hand, and appears to believe they are still together. Perhaps Aerith does this to comfort Cloud knowing that he might completely collapse if hes forced to accept her death... or perhaps she found a way to guide him from the lifestream in the same way Sephiroth can manipulate him from the lifestream. Just speculating, of course, but I'm just not convinced the "Aerith is actually Jenova" or any idea of that sort is valid just because "animation look funny". What IS interesting, is that whether or not I'm right, it does show the HUGE red herring power that the writers have given to Jenova. If your/Max's theory is wrong, then you all have been played by Jenova and that is pretty sick honestly! And if myself and those that agree with me are wrong, it shows the incredible deceptive power of Jenova. Also pretty sick!

[@m4ur1r4g3]

it's not "animation look funny", it's the whole conversation with him at the end. It counters everything she said before, she wants cloud to concentrate on himself and not on sephiroth.

[@dalegleneagles5072]

Personally I don't think the animaton looks funny. He's seeing either lifestream Aerith or some multiverse version. She's much more distant from him in her conversaton, imo. Also, isn't it in Sephiroth and Jenova's best interest to have Cloud angry, broken, and vengeful? Why try to reassure him by appearing as her? I could be wrong but it did look like Cloud realized she died by how he places her down on the altar at the end and is then almost surprised to see her appear next to him at the pool later on. To your point though, this is something I've never liked since the OG - you/they can essentally do whatever they want with Jenova whenever it suits them. For example, can Jenova ALSO make Cloud see a tear in the sky and not just see dead people? I don't think that's in the lore, but give it time...Either way, they'll definitely play up the Cloud is losing it angle with the party in part 3 with all of this. For all we know - back to my complaint - they may intermix Jenova versions of Aerith with real ones going forward. Or more simply, you could suggest she's just something Cloud is imagining in his own mind, but she is felt by Red, so I doubt that's the case.

[@Strafio]

​@@m4ur1r4g3his focus on going after Sephiroth is driven by the genova cells inside him, pushing him towards reunion like the black cape guys. Her advice is for him to break free of that and rediscover his real self (which is what Tifa is also trying to do) That'll be a big part of the next one

[@TGW-Studios]

At the end what Aerith says completely is out of character, she literally tells him "You promise?" when he says he'll stop Sephiroth. Now you might say she changed her "thoughts" or something after dying to him but remember that in the OG Aerith dies intentionally so she can go to the life stream

[@ocklyrajab7177]

This was cloud delusion playing, not sephiroth or jenova. He just affirming himself that he must kill sephiroth, it just like self bias affirmation

[@michaellindley2292]

I've heard people mock this theory (which is fine it all really could be BS) but they mention that this has to be the real spirit of Aerith cause Red sensed her. As if Jenova isn't known for stealing the likness of anyone, she was able to fool the Cetra people who were very intune with the lifestream. And the thing that sinched it for me was during the flashback at the beginning when Seph is about to walk through the fire he turns to do this very weird looking smile at Cloud/Zack and when Cloud ask Aerith to "get up" she smiles that same creepy smile.

[@brucey5585]

Your theory would only make sense if square didnt change aerith lines at the end of remake. Aerith say, "i dont like this sky." It means she can see the crack in the sky ever since they defeated sephiroth the first time. Then at costa del sol, she also said to Red that sometimes she is talking to a person and then it turns out to be someone else. Aerith is living 2 or more timelines. At the end, cloud is the one saying, dont trust the sky because it is an illusion while talking to someone dead. Cloud could be living 2 different timeline. It could mean that 2 cloud have merged together, also the reason why cloud have the black materia.

[@dalegleneagles5072]

Bingo. Just like he couldn't see the whispers until Aerth touched him, now he's kind of "unstuck" through timelines like she's been. Plus, what about Terrier bag Aerith? The one who pushed Cloud through the flower wormhole was in a different timeline, and like so many other stories (I'm thinking Squid Game), it's only implied that Sephiroth killed her in the church - you never actually see that, and if I'm not mistaken, he doesn't have the sword on him when he opens the doors. I figured he saw her hand Cloud the white materia and jumped in to follow him and snag it from him rather than go after Aerith in that moment.

[@jaysea838]

@@dalegleneagles5072Seph doesn’t know Cloud has the materia until they are in the forest; it’s the first thing he says after Cloud lands. As well, Seph’s Masamune is never held until used. It simply appears when called upon and then disappears again. (He will even leave it after killing someone and call upon it later). Watch the scene w/ Seph and Zack outside of the church. As Seph is walking by and up the stairs there is no Masamune to be seen. It’s only when Zack calls out Seph that Seph turns around and suddenly the Masamune is in his hand.

[@dalegleneagles5072]

@@jaysea838 Interesting about the masamune, however doesn't this further confiirm the point? If he had it in hand on the other side of the door, why doesn't he when he walks in immediately after? (unless those were two separate timelines). Plus even then, wouldn't he have needed it upon entering? It just seems an obvous point of difference/absence. Nonetheless, we still don't see him kill her in that timeline, which looked like a different one from the "terrier" timeline anyway where she's presumably still in bed (?) I thought the black whispers were trying to knock the materia out of Cloud's hands but they may have just been trying to steer him towards Sephiroth in the nebulous area. He mentions underestmating Aerith, so who knows, another timeline may have been created at the altar scene. Weird stuff happens now any time Cloud and Sephiroth's swords clash for a protracted moment.

[@dickwallace8567]

@@jaysea838 How many white materia are there now? The one that turns clear, the one Aerith gives Cloud, then Aerith still has a white one in her hair that falls out when Sephiroth kills her. How does she still have a white one in her hair when she shows us that it turned clear in Costa del Sol?

[@REVOLVERE]

The meta is that Sephiroth is manipulating Cloud and the viewers as well because we see everything from Cloud's perspective. That's how powerful Sephiroth really is. He manipulates us through the screen 😮

[@dreamphoenix]

A fascinating, if horrifying, theory. Thank you!

[@SnapsCreativeAgency]

Alright hear me out... I think the worlds merged the moment Cloud saved Aerith, and Aerith is alive in another world that already merged with all the others, that's why Tifa can see both versions of Aerith's death too since she fell into the lifestream and perhaps she can percieve it because of it. Omni Aerith, or Aerith that fights Sephiroth with us is the Aerith Cloud saved, She thanks Cloud and also has the equipment we gave her, materia and staff. Besides Sephiroth compliments her saying he underestimated her. Than's why I think Aerith is alive in another world and the visions of Cloud are actually her, besides the ending shot is a very sincere goodbye from Aerith.

[@RyanOstrowski-eh6ft]

i think the aerith we see at the end of the game is jenova.

[@jonaswiskari9382]

This theory makes sense of Rufus’ experiences too. It’s only when he’s alone with the hooded men that Glenn appears.

[@Shudikan90]

This...also that water scene? Will be utilized when cloud finally remembers and accepts her death and that dark sad feeling you all yern for will hit even harder.😢

[@dislikebutton6596]

The moment Max tried to convince the stream that the red glint in her eye when responding to Cloud actually made me laugh. Need to remember folks, these are peoples theories, not absolute

[@dalegleneagles5072]

He's also always had a bias for both darker interpretations and for this to follow the same story but "deeper", so of course he was going to favor this approach. The last I saw he has shifted to a more "balanced" view, or more simply that ANY interpretation is equally valid (or BS) as any other, and that was by the developers' design. Keeping in mind he, like everyone else, has been wrong along the way on some points. I remember he said the terrier bag was a red herring.

[@lucacampagna7604]

I think its a fun theory and thematically it would work really well with the next Jenova fight too aka Jenova Death. I think that Jenovith(Jenova Aerith) will lead Cloud and manipulate some of the Black Robes so the party sees her too and the battle will occur when the big unveiling of the truth of Cloud's fractured psyche where he'll finally understand that Aerith is dead and it'll break him. Also, the black materia being in the Buster Sword makes me think that is how Cloud will use Meteorain.

[@HealRD]

Imagine the whole party have to fight corrupted/mentally broken down Cloud, just right before Jenova Death boss fight. Now THAT would be so awesome.

[@briansilva4165]

They already debunked this theory. Devs already said the Aerith at the end was the real Aerith. They also confirmed multiple worlds/timelines. Cloud saved Aerith and created a new timeline where she is alive. Cloud is going back and forth within timelines. The timeline where Aerith lives is the one where he is holding her with no blood, tifa saw that one also which confirmed it’s real. Then he remains in OG timeline where Aerith is dead until he walks over to Aerith and tells her to wake up which is the timeline where she lived. The rest of the party is not even looking at cloud and Aerith they are looking further down in that scene which is probably the dead Aerith in the OG timeline. So after that scene cloud returns to OG timeline for the rest of the game. Aerith in the meadow is the same Aerith from remake where she tells him no to fall in love with her. Probably lifestream Aerith. In the end cloud is not hallucinating, he is just hopping worlds

[@pipsqueaksgaming7029]

Devs said no such thing

[@BenXC]

I'm a huge fan of Max, but I think he's overlooking many things in his theory. First off, there a two theories floating around. One is that Aerith died in one reality and lived in another and Cloud can see both at the same time, which would make sense because he can see the tear in the sky. Which is clearly from another reality, because no one else can see it. The other one is what Max came up with, that Aerith is dead and a "force ghost". Honestly I think it's something inbetween. The first question we must ask ourselves. Why was it so important for another Aerith to get the intact holy materia to our Aerith when she died nonetheless? Remember the other Aerith that gave us the materia and who didn't destroy fate could still see the future. So she had a plan. What was that plan? We know that the holy materia is something where all the memories of Aerith are stored. So what if the devs came up with some kind of Horcrux that bound Aerith's soul to the holy materia? Cloud and Aerith were the only one that touched it which would explain the connection that Cloud and Aerith have. And we still have another Aerith which is in a sort of coma, basically an empty shell without a soul. So I believe we'll see a Resurrection (maybe the name of Part 3?) of Aerith when the timelines merge, maybe just by the people in the party touching the holy materia and being able to finally see the "force ghost" Aerith, or by returning the holy materia to Aerith that's lying in a coma and she'll wake up after touching it. Who knows, but I think this one makes far more sense.

[@rsoxboy]

Yea whatever route Square chooses to go will be the one with the most storytelling value. They didn't wait 23 years to tell the exact same story story again, AND create an alternative timeline with Zack surviving his fate to become a playable character in Rebirth. Zack is alive and well in this story, so why can't many content creators accept that Aerith is alive in a similar way as Zack?

[@RayEros]

Another theory i have. Aerith jumped into another world. The rainbow colour shows the transportation of aerith into another world when cloud blocks the blade. My take on the Jenova taking Aeriths form is this, sure Jenova could take Aeriths form as she is dead. But for her to do that she would have to be one of the mako poisoined hooded guys. Unless its Clouds own Jenova cells that show him sephiroth showing themselve as Aerith. My prefered view is that its Aerith spirit. I dont believe aerith would allow jenova to trick cloud as such she would find a way to protect him. Cloud had to hand both Aerith and Sephiroth the white and the black materia to their respective selves as he had to observe the event taking place in order for it to become a reality. Its cloud observation that affects outcomes of events. When sephiroth was describing reality, aerith also spoke. She is there still asissting cloud not to fall to sephiroth manipulation. I have so many theories the one i truley accept is my first theory i shared with a youtuber called Dartigan and my new teories with quantam physics and biocentrism as the core explination of certain events. I try to explain those theories but its difficult to get into using youtube messaging.

[@dalegleneagles5072]

This is very similar to multiple "branes" with the timelines. Keeping in mind the chapter in Remake where this all started was also called "Singularity"

[@joshuamorgan1646]

I only got to play through the game once n manipulation was what went through my mind. This is the first theory video I have watched. Haven't had time to watch max like usual cuz of the length of that video lol.

[@lucystoole4355]

I subscribe to this theory, but they purposefully made this theory hard to prove definitively. The Cetra make a point of saying in their explanation of history that Jenova took the form of DEAD loved ones. Sephiroth tries to convince Cloud that Tifa is fake, because she could have died back in the reactor. The multiple timeline things give doubt to that theory though because there's a chance it's also a lifestream Aerith. I love that it's impossible to know right now.

[@LeonardMosca]

My thoughts exactly about being a manipulation by jenova

[@Guy9998]

It's interesting that Aerith's outfit and hair react to the air that the Tiny Bronco's propellers are generating when they're talking leaving me to believe that she's not a spirit or in Cloud's head. She also thanks him for saving her. Or at least I assume that was what she was referring to at the beginning of the last fight. Also, doesn't Jenova need a robe or some kind of vessel in order to appear to someone? I'm sure Barret would have commented on a black robe walking around in the middle of nowhere by themselves. Although Sephiroth does seem to appear to Cloud in Remake without a vessel at the beginning. Like Max said every theory sucks so far since every one can be debunked in some way. It is fun to theorize though.

[@jaysea838]

I do agree that Aerith seems really strange in the scenes. Some argue that she just died so of course she would act strange (?) You were just killed / all your friends are there grieving and you say “I’ll see you off.” ? I’m not saying she is Jenova (Though that would be wild and make for really dark 3rd game) but there is definitely something purposely off about her. The music is dark, the way her animation was done is oddly off putting. Regardless of it all, I do believe we will see the death scene again + her burial scene in the next game when Cloud is forced to face everything that he is suppressing. I will say this, any time I think about wild theories I have to think if it can fall in line with the OG. If you take away the whispers and the timeline aspects, the game is following the OG beats to this point. The devs could certainly take it off the rails in the 3rd but I don’t think they will until the end. I’m sure there will still be some timeline stuff mixed in but, again, so far that hasn’t had any “major” implications for the OG timeline.

[@CrimsonXE]

The problem with the theory is that not only does it not fit into the multiverse story happening as it instead dives into a psychological territory, which isn't the focus of this story so far. Whereas having 2 branches spawned off of Cloud clashing with Septhiroth where Aerith lives and the other goes along like OG does. It being multiple branchlines also isn't a slap in the face to "Aerith lives" people like myself via having Cloud arrive in time, have knowledge of Aerith being in danger, and succeeding in pushing Sephiroth away. As well as a betrayal of what Remake setup. On top of that, it'd further add to the b.s. level of Sephiroth's reality rewrite to let the death stick as the only thing. Then there's Zack's line "save her (Aerith)", which no he wouldn't know her fate; but it also very much feels like a meta thing to indicate her still being around. And her showing up in the finale on top of all that also goes towards the idea of saying she is still around. If they wanted to go with her purely being dead that could've been done w/ the water burial scene in place w/o any need of hinting at a branch in the clash scene. Not to mention having Red/Nanaki picking up on her being around. Instead they've now checked off the box of an Aerith death, but in a manner that also has her survive cause branches within the multiverse. Which the entire multiverse heavy convo completely surrounds that event specifically, which I'd wager is on purpose. There's also literally no reason to have her die or to have it stick in place, other than "its what OG did". Holy has no 'kills caster" aspect to it, it also didn't stop Meteor either, nor did it stop Septhiroth as shown in Advent Children with him manifesting again alongside the Geostigma. The Remake-trilogy has made it very clear that its telling its story alongside some of the OG's beats, its satisfied that with Aerith's branch death. The "bad end route" already exists and has for 20+ years, there should be a "good end route" now to finish out the Compilation story. As well as give the other side of the death coin that so many fail to acknowledge. Yes, death should be accepted as a natural thing of life; but life should also be valued. Fate should NOT be immutable and instead should be defied, especially with the world presented that is being bent to Sephiroth's whims. I've been wanting a "good end route" for 20+ years and the pieces have been set up for it in Remake-trilogy.

[@theonecalledlamorak6446]

I’m with you 100% on everything you say here. I’ve been a fan of the OG since it came out and it did what it did perfectly and should have its own place in time. I would even argue that if she perma dies here all it does is dilute her death in the original and doesn’t mean as much which is sorta ironic to think about. My working theory is that the OG is canonical and is what set these new events in motion with Sephiroth being hyper aware of his failure in the first game. The OG timeline she’s dead dead, it counts and it’s weighted, and her sacrifice has led to her infinite number of deaths through out the lifestream-verse….except one. One where she can ultimately thwart Sephiroths plans and ultimately be saved. Usually it’s the “gutsy” thing to kill a beloved character to elicit a reaction, but now we find ourselves in a scenario where the opposite is true; the “gutsy” thing is to now save her and stop her cycle of being killed constantly because it is the unexpected outcome and more rewarding. I think that’s beautiful but unfortunately there’s a lot of ppl out there with “clouded eyes” who can’t see it and just want the OG in modern graphics.

[@CrimsonXE]

@@theonecalledlamorak6446 I can't fathom this being perma dead cause it just doesn't at all make any sense, given literally everything shown. I'm firmly in the space that FF7 and FF7R should be treated as their own things with some crossover. I respect OG and have for all these years, but I like so many have always wanted to have a good ending to it. For me that thing that'd grind my nerves about Aerith's death is the reality rewrite of it, like its such a b.s. backhand. Its actually funny cause going into Rebirth I remember someone mentioning it feeling like the trailers were a tribute to Aerith for a send off, while the ending itself offers up so many things that say the exact opposite. I'm kind of in the same vein, especially in regards to OG having its own canon that runs alongside Rebirth. Sort like in comics where you have the "Silver Age" and also the "Ultimate" in certain ones, both co-exist. If anything I almost lean into during the deflection the player/audience shifting perspective into an OG route where Aerith died, while there's another branch that is Rebirth's of her living. If you've played a game called SOMA, then I'd point to an element in it that demonstrates this type of perspective shift. I think people have massively warped the idea of the OG game, obsessing over the death and forgetting about valuing life. Like there's been 20+ years of bad end with the message of "acceptance of death as a natural thing" and part 3 is the confirmed last part of this trilogy, so they legit have no reason not to go full-on with the "Aerith lives" good end path in some way. And they've put hints in that go towards exactly that in the ending, so the painful part is waiting the years till part 3 to find out where they go with the story. Let the one crowd whine about it, OG w/ AC as its route's sequel still existing for them; while Remake-trilogy can deliver a new interesting route.

[@theonecalledlamorak6446]

@@CrimsonXEI think ppl get this idea in their head that FF7 is about “death and sadness” from Advent Children; that movie completely shits on the tone and upbeat atmosphere of the original with its grey atmosphere and depressing monologues so now that’s what ppl run with. If you play the OG it had way more color and upbeat moments than AC. The death and moving on stuff really comes from Tifas plot line of losing her mother and helping Cloud regain his true identity, that’s pretty much it. There’s so many other themes in FF7 that ppl brush aside for the dark cloudy crap and it’s always annoyed me over the years cuz the OG had so much more going on than just that. Even with Aeriths death in OG it was really treated as a plot device to move the story forward, I mean 10 mins later the group is snowboarding down a mountain and racing chocobo at the gold saucer. Her death was important for what it did but it sacrificed her story arc and character development for it and that’s always bothered me, but with this remake trilogy we have an opportunity to explore that and now this time it actually does make sense story wise to find a way to save her. It’s easy to elicit an emotional response killing someone off but the rewards are much smaller in the story. It’s hard to get an emotional response with happier endings but the payoffs are much more fruitful. The FF9 ending does this perfectly, every character lived in that game and it actually manages to hit you in the feels harder than any other FF game. So yea I’m with you I hope we get the good ending these characters would want after all these years.

[@CrimsonXE]

@@theonecalledlamorak6446 tbf I like AC as a continuation of the story, cause of everyone naturally having baggage from Aerith's death. But it definitely portrays a certain view of the core of FF7 that aligns to nihilistic till the end where it flips it around via Aerith, interestingly as if the truth of FF7 is idealistic and for all of AC everyone has been clouded by vision of nihilism that has to be dispeled. Ironically that nihilistic tone lines up with some of the same people that will roll their eyes at AC. Its actually funny how thick the brain rot is, cause some of the bigger names in that crowd (at least on YT) literally say the same things as each other about the game. I absolutely agree on the notion that there's always been a balance between light/happy and dark/depressing moments in FF7, which is actually where Remake & 95% of Rebirth shine so bright by showing the light/happy side. Its part of why I'd actually love there at the end of the Remake-trilogy to have a maintained multiverse, where OG aka "bad end route" is kept in place as its own canon alongside a new "good end route" canon timeline. Achieving balance in the end between nihilism, acceptance of death as a natural thing, and fatalism at the hands of fate vs. idealism, valuing life, and breaking any notions of fate to instead make ones own ending. I think I got lucky in when I played OG, cause while Aerith's death hurt it didn't massively cause damage in me. Maybe that explains me being so in the "Aerith lives" camp of things (well that and I just dislike the notion of things having to play out exactly the same with new takes on stories, when Resident Evil remakes show that they don't and can be so much better by not). The one crowd mistakes being hit full-on with the edgy death that they put it as the core of the entire thing as well as making it out to be this make or break part. Like if one actually looks at the story, no Aerith's death actually isn't that big of a deal. It isn't payment to unleash Holy, even if it was Holy doesn't actually stop Meteor on its own, and it doesn't even stop Sephiroth as he still manifests later w/ Geostigma infecting people. If Holy did require the user to die to invoke, then there'd at least be ground to stand on in arguing it had to happen, but that isn't the case. It just translates to that crowd wanting it to happen cause it fits with something inside them that wants the edge. I have mixed feelings about 9, but definitely can agree that its ending lands. I'd even say FFX gets a happy ending pay off in X-2 and 8 as well in having Rinoa reach Squall. I'd go one further than "characters would want", in its what they deserve and the entire Compilation should have. A good end to go with the bad in a manner of balance; that represents the core of it. Accept death a part of natural life, but also value life in seeking to defy fate over it. Not naively idealistic, but also not edgelord nihilistic.

[@KillerTofuDrums]

I had a thought the other day, what if it was Aerith that ensured her own death? "I saw what you did for me back there" sticks out and kind of makes me feel like it was her changing the timeline to make sure the Canon event stayed in place. And when Sephiroth says "I've got to admit, I underestimated you" could mean that he knows what she did.

[@loregasmic]

The hell was the point in defying destiny then? Knowing all she did about the future in Remake, she still said “we can change it, make it right.” And if Sephiroth and Aerith agree she should die then why even bother at all

[@Pparty_Gaming]

It’s possible that if this Aerith is manipulation then it makes sense as who gets manipulated in the OG?? Red and Cloud

[@HealRD]

Also Barret in OG. And in Rebirth, who has already touched Black Materia at this point? Cloud (obviously), Red XIII (when he catches the orb by mouth and throws it back to the descending altar) and Barret (the "Fine, fetch" scene).

[@charliewild2367]

Bollocks this was my theory I wanted to ve the first to put it out there.

[@chrishayden1320]

Na Nanaki felt her so she is rly there

[@itsdantaylor]

While I GET why people would think Cloud is being manipulated (I mean that's like 40% of his character arc in the OG) I don't think that's what's happening in the ending. My basis for this is solely the fact that we, the audience, were shown the Zack segments specifically in regards to the creation of the branching timelines. If like, CLOUD was shown that, I think there would be a bit more evidence to support he could be manipulated into thinking that's what is happening. Not to mention it doesn't seem like Cloud is aware of the different AU situation happening. So it isn't like Sephiorth is manipulating him into thinking he saved Aerith in another timeline because Cloud KNOWS they exist. I think Cloud saved Aerith who is now alive in a alternate timeline but he's only really perceiving that timeline and not the one he is currently inhabiting.........which will still cause problems for him no doubt, and probably lead to his continued mental decline. Not to mention the Aerith we're shown at the end appears to have too much.....agency? To just be a hallucination. Regardless of AU Aerith or Force Ghost it seems like she IS Aerith and not just something Cloud, Sephiorth, or Jenovah is making up

[@class7469]

How can red sense Aerith if she really isn’t there

[@madebarriere]

Listem to me... What if, Tifa has mako poisoning too? She did go into the lifestream right? Thats why she could kinda see what cloud was seeing. But also... What if, the dark materia created the aerith we see at the very end talking to cloud.... Dude just some really spooky stuff.

[@wildinstinct1585]

the author kept repeating "dark and depressing" like that would force it into our subconscious mind. it was convolution without context. it was Kingdom Hearts level of nonsense.

[@velvet_victor]

? how so

[@andrecaldwell4891]

Problem with this theory is. RED SENSES Aerith.

[@linden272]

She’s still alive in another timeline that’s playing at the same time as her death timeline, but cloud is in the middle of both timelines now

[@kingkarlo9587]

This is a cool theory but I have to disagree. Red XIII sensed Aerith's presence as Cloud watched her walk over to a crying Yuffie with Red comforting her. Aerith also alluded to wanting to use the Terrier world as a backup for her and Cloud during their final date, which I imagine will piss a lot of fans off when Aerith is "revived" in part 3

[@dalegleneagles5072]

If you think about it, they had to "kill" her and yet keep it all nebulous. If they made anything clear or permanent they'd lose one or more chunks of the fan base for part 3. So, so much is stll unclear, even going back to Remake. But to start, what does Jenova have to gain by making Cloud think Aerith is alive? Sephiroth wants him broken, hateful, and seeking vengence. Aerith would want Cloud hopeful so he wouldn't succumb to those emotions. I mean geez, think to Barret's last lines in Loveless.

[@loregasmic]

@@dalegleneagles5072Maybe convincing him he saved her and then pulling the rug from under him will amplify all those feelings. Imagine the moment he reveals his whole past is a lie, he adds “Oh by the way, your present is a lie too. She’s actually dead.”

[@truthhurtsohwell05]

This theory is being regurgitated. I heard it from maxamillion. But this theory would be interesting 🤨

[@goat2601]

No shot. 1. If you believe this, you have to believe it's the same Aerith who joins Cloud to fight Sephiroth in the final fight. She says "I saw what you did back there." meaning him "saving" her. It's a huge stretch to believe that this is Jenova manipulating him. 2. Even if that's the case, who pulls Zack out of his world at the end? Where does "Jenova Aerith" end and real Aerith begin? It's too convoluted, even for Nomura. 3. Saying the Aerith mourning scene is "off" is like saying the vibes at a funeral are off. 4. There's no reason for Aerith to stand there, watch the plane leave, say "Goodbye." if this is Jenova manipulating Cloud. I could go on. It's a nonstarter. . There is a much simpler explanation, and Sephiroth spells it out for us. In one world, Cloud DOES save Aerith. But the worlds are collapsing at that moment. Sephiroth says this is "turning fleeting moments of joy into sorrow." The entire point of Remake+Rebirth is that Sephiroth set out to create (or let the party create) these extra worlds in order to collapse them again, causing enormous pain and "feeding the planet (Jenova)".

[@6themoodypoet920]

Here's a few wild theories... The next Final Fantasy VII game will be called Reunion. Who could Jenova possibly want a "reunion" with?... Tifa. If Aerith is a descendant of The Creator then why can't Tifa be a descendent of Jenova who I think was the Queen of the Gi or Fleeing Gi fugitive of sumpin. So... FF VII Reunion Jenova is a GI (a "G" 🤣) Tifa is a descendant of Jenova. Which is why she seemingly keeps surviving the impossible.

[@linkofhyrule6580]

Max’s theory about Aerith being Jenova at the end would be way more convincing if she didnt directly interact with Red and then also they werent blasting Aerith’s theme when she’s talking to Cloud. I get that there’s sort of a weird shift in her tone going from “take care of yourself” to “stop sephiroth”, but half of her lines are direct references to experiences they’ve shared across these two games. Her first line “and if i said i wasnt” is exactly what she says when they get to the playground in Remake and Cloud asks if she’ll be ok getting home.

[@dalegleneagles5072]

Maybe stretching, but Zack also says to Cloud that he has to save her and that's after the altar scene. If anything, her "and if I said I wasn't" line would be Jenova at work taking Cloud's memories and using them. The fact that Red can't see her but reacts when she touches him is the more convincing point, I think, and something Max left out. And she's been effectively sayng "stop Sephiroth" since Remake so that doesn't seem strange. Aerith isn't trying to get Cloud to do anything where Jenova likely would. I would think if it were Jenova then there must be something gained by having Cloud stay at the capital, because that's what Aerith is implied to be doing. This assumes they didn't skip over something that they'll reveal later.

[@NebetSeta]

I thought Cloud was seeing Aerith’s ghost…. I think she was trying to say goodbye to everyone.

[@xcom54]

It's very interesting a lot of people in the comments section of that podcast seems to reject Max's theory viscerally because they believe Aerith is alive in another timeline etc. They are, like Cloud, denying the fact that Aerith is dead. To me, Cloud's mind is broken at this point, we can not trust his point of view (like how he hides the black material? something is clearly wrong with him, and we can't trust his interpretation of reality). What the other party member see is closer to the reality. Something is clearly off with the last few scenes. There are literature about how too much knowledge (about time/space etc) can make people go insane. I think Cloud has become delusional. Also how JENOVA cell makes Cloud mimic Zack, it's now possibly making him believe Aerith is alive etc. PS. Furthermore, a lot of people keep talking about Timelines etc, but to me, the game put a lot more emphasis on Cloud's psychotic breakdown. There are so many scenes of him gone crazy, especially toward the end. Plus, in the temple, he does not have to go face his past, like the temple does not think he deserve it or that he is not actually a real person, what's up with that? I think the story teller put more amphasis on that aspect.

[@daedalus8494]

Quit with the theories, people. It's been said by devs these games lead to Advent Children anyway. Aerith is dead. There's no timelines in plural, just one. It's only Sephiroth playing Cloud. Remember it's him explaining to Cloud the multiverse thing. And he's proven in the past he cannot be believed. All he does is twist things around to fit his narrative. She may not know completely where she is hiding during chapter 14. Maybe she just hid in the lifestream. Do notice only Cloud sees the rainbowy effect when Sephiroth kills Aerith. Meaning his mind (or rather, Jenova) might be making it up. The changes we see in "the other world" where Zack goes for Hojo, then for Biggs, etc, might just be fluctuations in the lifestream Aerith is forcing to confuse Sephiroth. Not so much might, as she herself states she is trying to remain hidden from him. Just saying.

[@phrofile3613]

The Rainbows are a sign of Aerith manipulation abilities.

[@dalegleneagles5072]

Max seems to have hedged his prior conclusions, in part because they portray other party members seeing strange things at "that" moment (namely Tifa). It's deliberately not clear. The fact that Red reacts to Aerith when she touches him makes me think it's not Jenova - for him to react, there has to be some sort of quasi-physical/spiritual presence. Then there's the tear in the sky, which there are hints that Aerith can see in the main sequence while the rest cannot - it's very similar to Remake in how only certain people can see the whispers after touching others who already can.

[@milemile4813]

I really hope that she is in fact dead Not because i hate her, but because i love her as a character and her death is so essential to the plot that i would really be disappointed if they somehow bring her and Zack back and its a happily ever after story. Cause FFVII is definitely not that kind of a story.

[@zackkeogh3515]

Shinra Archaeology Department tweet Nov. 17th 2023: "Kitase says he personally thinks FFVII Rebirth has a good ending. However, different people receive stories in different ways. He says players' impressions and analysis of the story may be reflected in the next game, so he hopes people will discuss Rebirth's ending a lot." Kitase's opinion makes no senes with darkest timeline, Aerith is powerless and gone forever, Cloud is only interacting with Jenova here level 5 Dood theory. Sure, Cloud is blocking things out, but I'm pretty damn sure he's interacting with Aerith in the field in a similar way that he's interacted with Zack all throughout the end sequence, the OG, and AC. I mean really, why stop at Aerith at this point? Tifa is Jenova. Zack is Jenova. Cloud's mom is Jenova. Sephiroth doesn't even have to reveal it's him at the Northern Crater. He can just use the power of Jenova to make it seem like Rufus is the one after the black materia. I mean, why didn't Sephiroth use the power of Jenova to just appear to Cloud as his mother in chapter 2 in Remake if thats his MO?

[@CuriousCorduroy]

I think the greater theory is that Jenova is manipulating everyone, including Sephiroth. But I think that using only Aerith makes sense because of how important and powerful she is. Plus the entire party watched her die and (potentially) be placed into the water at the forgotten city. So if the team finds out Cloud is talking to Aerith and acting like nothing is wrong it makes him look even more unstable and unreliable.

[@joshz2491]

Exactly Sephiroth threw her blood on Cloud and yet he was calm? “You'll never see the truth with Such Clouded eyes “ This is not just some random line by Sephiroth. Even if you want to argue that it is actually Aerith reaching out through the lifestream. It is still not a good thing, that Cloud is not acknowledging the grief of other party members. Jenova might be the cause or she might not, but Cloud is still in a terrible state either way.,

[@andymancandy]

I really like certain elements of this theory, but I keep going back the rainbows. Before aeriths death, the game makes it very clear that whenever a new universe is spawned or any kind of multiverse shenanigans happen, we see the rainbows as a visual language to indicate what's going on. So when cloud parries sephiroth, you see the rainbows and you continue to see them throughout the rest of the ending, like with zack or when aerith returns for the final fight. So if it really is all in clouds head, why show us the rainbows? They're there for us to understand what's going on, not for cloud to see, so I don't see him falsely seeing that. And then there are other things like red sensing aerith, etc. I personally believe it has to do with the fact that cloud was the only one to cross through destiny's crossroad unlike how all them did in remake, which would explain why he's the only one to see the sky. So while I do still think sephiroth will use aerith to manipulate cloud, I do think she's still alive in another universe

[@Storm1Trooper5]

Gets completely debunked when Aerith says goodbye with literally no one around. Unfortunate Max would come to this conclusion I had hoped he would have some cool insight.

[@Akheavymetal]

The goodbye is specifically for us, the audience, not the characters. It’s a very common occurrence in narratives to show or say things no one else sees but us.

[@TravaillesDuChanson]

Aerith is dead in the beagle timeline but she lives on in the terrier timeline with Zack. I see them reuniting and once that happens Zack will not allow anything to happen to Aerith. I wonder how a synergy between Aerith and Zack would look? The only way they will truly see Aerith again meaning the rest of the party will be when worlds merge again which would bring Aerith and Zack over. Then of course all of the other unseen players from the compilation have yet to be revealed other than Cissnei...

[@kevinthunder3375]

I don't buy it. Aerith is alive in one universe and dead in another. Cloud saw a true Aerith, but whether it was multiverse Aerith or force ghost Aerith, we don't yet know.

[@chapachuu]

So, I think livestream/omni Aerith is the one we see in the ending scene and the final battle of the game. I don't think Cloud is hallucinating livestream Aerith. He can see and speak to her, like he did in Advent Children. Others can't, so it makes Cloud look crazier than he already is. To me, the scene of Aerith's death depicts an over write of reality. The visuals and Sephiroth's words about merging timelines to amplify grief or whatever his actual word are, makes me think he overwrote the timeline where Cloud does save Aerith with one he doesn't, amplifying Cloud's sense of loss and despair. The only weight the manipulation/Jenova theory has is that uncanny scene with Aerith by the pool. The scene direction is definately giving you uneasy vibes, but this could just be because they want us to think Cloud has completely it and that we can't trust him as a narrator and character. On the other hand, the game brings up several times about how Jenova manipulates, fools, and mimics people. It has to come into play somewhere.

[@rsoxboy]

Why in the world are so many people resisting the idea that Aerith could have been saved? Especially when in the previous game Zack is shown to survive the moment he was supposed to die, AND is a playable character in Rebirth? They have provided all the context and precedent necessary for a character to survive their fate. I think the emotional context of the moment where Cloud blocked Sephiroth's attack and what follows is what many content creators are taking as the true and only reality. That moment should be seen as one of the most triumphant moments in video game history, but the switch is immediately flipped to the reality where Aerith dies. So the audience is just following the emotional context that is depicted, and resisting all of the evidence that shows an alternative timeline where Aerith is still physically alive.

[@briansilva4165]

It’s because og fans want Aerith dead so badly cause if she lives then the ending will hit different. It’s obvious cloud saved her and then we started following a doomed OG timeline which is no longer the real timeline showed by the rip in the sky at the end. Sorry people but Aerith got saved and will have to save the planet as a live person this time around. 🤣

[@rsoxboy]

@briansilva4165 Yea I don't definitively believe one outcome or the other. Like I think that it's strongly possible that Cloud is in a deep state of denial over Aerith's death, but I just don't think that sets up an interesting story for part 3. I think it's obvious that Cloud is occupying a timeline right now where Aerith dies. But a compelling arc for his character to take is for him to have to question whether or not he did save Aerith when confronted with the evidence that she is in fact dead in that timeline, then that leads to him learning about his true past of Nibelheim, SOLDIER, and Zack. It will end up being his emotionally lowest point. Then at a later time closer to the end of the game when he learns that his actions at the alter did actually save Aerith (who branched off into separate timeline), the feeling of redemption inspires an inner trust in himself that eclipses his redemption arc in the OG. But who knows other than the devs at Square. They might just go down the Aerith is dead in all scenarios route, and everything you see at the alter is just a gigantic fakeout to the audience. I hope they don't do that though because it will feel gimmicky.

[@DuffmanChess]

This is a complete non starter of a theory. There is too much evidence against it, and it would make no sense in the context of the "Re-trilogy". 1. It was confirmed in the Ultimania that Cloud did actually deflect Sephiroth's attack. 2. The rainbow lights at the moment of deflection show the creation of a new timeline, showing that Cloud did indeed save Aerith. 3. Cloud is the only person that can see the rift in the sky, as well as being the only person able to see Aerith. This has to mean something big as Aerith deliberately told cloud to not look up in their date sequence. She wanted him to notice the rift. 4. Red sensing Aerith shows that it wasn't Cloud being manipulated. 5. Aerith saying to Cloud "I saw what you did back there" referring to Cloud deflecting Sephiroth's blade. Then there is an acknowledgement of her being there by Sephiroth and how he underestimated her. 6. The one piece of evidence that nobody is talking about is the flowers that Elmyra shows Zack in the "Terrier" timeline. She even said "Do you think this means she'll wake up soon?" Zack then makes Elmyra promise to not let Aerith leave if she wakes up. This is because Marlene told him Sephiroth would kill her if she wakes up if Cloud isn't there to save her. 7. Zack tells Cloud to "save her" when Sephiroth sends him to a different timeline during their fight with Sephiroth 8. Aerith says goodbye while watching the party fly away. If they wanted to emphasise her being dead, they'd have her fade into lifestream particles as she said it, or not have her be there at all. Just have some lifestream particles fly past the screen as she said goodbye. 9. Tifa clearly can see both Aerith dead and alive while Cloud was holding Aerith. The visual effects and noise is not something exclusive to Cloud's mind or him being manipulated. We know this as the same visual effects and noise can be seen when Aerith hugs Marlene in Seventh Heaven, when Aerith transferred some knowledge to Marlene. 10. The lyrics to both Hollow and No Promises to Keep point towards Aerith reuniting with Cloud. People keep pointing out Sephiroth's line of "You'll never see the truth with such clouded eyes", as him talking to Cloud. I think this is actually a subtle breaking of the 4th wall, and Sephiroth is actually talking to us the player. The "clouded eyes" being the knowledge of the OG game. Also, if Jenova/Sephiroth was manipulating Cloud into believing he saved Aerith, why would Sephiroth then be trying to get Cloud to see that she is dead in this moment? There is also the line from Sephiroth at the beginning of Remake, when he tells Cloud, "You're too weak to save anyone" a clear nod to Aerith's death in the OG. If Sephiroth has been trying to get Cloud to accept Aerith's death since the start of Remake, and even just before we have the boss gauntlet. Why would Jenova suddenly want Cloud to believe Aerith is alive and well? It doesn't add up. Finally, if Aerith is dead, that makes the entire "Re-trilogy" pointless. The whole theme of "Defying/changing Destiny" would be entirely redundant. As that would be saying that fate is inevitable, and fly in the face of everything Remake and Rebirth was built around. Bringing back Zack would be redundant. The multiple timelines would be redundant. The clear white materia and Aerith having to timeline hop would be redundant. Basically every theme and scene in the game would be pointless. They may as well have made a 1:1 remake and called it a day if they were going to do that. To me, it seems the people that are pushing for Aerith to stay dead are OG purists that are too stuck on the original story. There is plenty of media that differs from the original in vast ways, and that's okay. Take the Harry Potter movies for example. They're almost entirely different from the books, but that's okay. Both are there for those that want to enjoy them.

[@HeavenOnHigh]

Well, my theory is quite simple She is alive and dead. (Seen in the white light that appears wen thr timeline is split) He is simply able to see and interact with all the timelines the same as sepi and arith.

[@ProudShipperVII]

I think there's a bit of everything going on. There have been multiple versions of both Sephiroth and Aerith from the start, so I think we are seeing two versions here. Whether or not we are seeing Jenova in disguise, particularly in the moment with the spooky music, it's still spooky, because we know that Cloud is not seeing everything as it truly is. I think we are also genuinely seeing the creation of another world, because that seems to be what the rainbow effect represents. It's a bad ending. But I can't wait to see Cloud getting hyped up about snowboarding.

[@kittylovemeows]

Aerith lives she is alive and learning how to wield the livestream alive at the forgotten capitol.

[@laithamekir5778]

I think Clouds returning to the lifestream, all of these possibilities is Clouds shattered mind and Jenova trying to manipulate him one final time to get him to accept the Jenova Cells in himand to take him over all so she canenter the lifestream. We learned thaf was her goal in rebirth and when Aerith tells Cloud. "Its about saving you... And the world." Its like the worlds an afterthought because SHE KNOWS that they succeeded already. But this time, its completely his battle to find the reality of it all and to ultimately forget Jenova and let Sephiroth be a just a memory, as he enters the promised land. But at the edge of creation where hes about to create the promised land Jenova Cells are trying to do just that because Jenova is doing whT Jenova does best. If she takes over Clouds spirit and corrupts it, she is inpersonating the Lifestreams most cherished persons lived one. Thats why Aerith is sending Zack. Ultimately Zack helps him at the edge of creation but Aeris (OG) has to step in. Its also why Sephiroth says "I underestimated you." Hes underestimated (this event during the seven seconds before the end) to once again make a timeline where Cloud has lost hope and thats Jenovas in... So in number three when Tifa helps put Clouds memories together, he will fight tooth and nail saying he saved her in another timeline.... But theres only the one timeline... If Clouds confronted with not saving her it breaks him he goes to the darkest parts and Jenova wins his soul to get into the lifestream. Seven seconds until the end... So every game from Remake, to Rebirth, is a moment where Clouds moving closer to the lifestream. My big twist on this theory will be The Hero Sephiroth, the one that lives within Cloud and who Cloud idolized... I believe he will be the final person to help Cloud and sever the tie of Jenova from Cloud. Thus redeeming Sephiroth as a Hero. Just my thoughts let me know what yoy think

[@Qarach_Ice]

I thought Max Dood had a good point, until I saw The Landi Lodge full breakdown discussion….. it’s THE BEST breakdown, the best theory….. trust me. It’s a 3 hour video. WORTH IT!

[@ErenDenizMert]

But we see a rainbow when cloud clashes swords with Seph and he also sees the rift in the sky while the others dont

[@LeonardoDaVinci_1452]

I think the Aerith in the scene where the party is mourning her is Jenova. Hence why it seems so creepy. However, the Aerith at the end where everyone’s gathered around the Tiny Bronco is the real Aerith or at least a variation of Aerith. Hence why Red 13/Nanaki can sense her after she touches him.

[@Colombianbusiness]

This ending is more confusing than impactful, it takes away from the death of aerith, and idk how to feel about it, my purist side is screaming in anger, but I also love not knowing what’s going to happen, if this would have been advertised as a sequel to advent children (because it is) it would have been better received instead of fans feeling robbed of the 1:1 remake as advertised. That being said Iove both games and even if I don’t agree with the ending, I am looking for ward to the third part where we may all find out wtf is going on lol

[@JujuKek]

I heard this theory while watching the Easy Allies video with Max which was so good that I recommend it to all fans of this game. I also like this theory because it's really dark. But I think she may be too dark for that to happen. Aerith is definitely weird in the end. And her incentive to fight Sephiroth is indeed contradictory to what she has been saying throughout the game. But there is a simple explanation, it is Cloud in his denial, he is imagining Aerith. He wants to fight Sephiroth, it's obvious since the beginning of the game, so the Aerith he imagines encourages him to fight Sephiroth. I know it's not as interesting as Max's (and his chat) theory, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one. Just look at all the theories we had after the remake, and I was one of the hardest theory makers. But what is the result? The simplest and most credible theories are confirmed...

[@LeonardMosca]

I was thinking maybe that final scene when Aerith and cloud fight the final battle it isn't really her but another clone

[@aaronw6195]

I don't buy the idea that it's all Jenova manipulation, and it's because Sephiroth shows cloud multiple worlds, and then the worlds merging right after the date where Cloud was able to smuggle a working version of the Holy Materia into the Rebirth world. On top of that, the huge fight at the end includes Zack who's world was presumably merged into the Rebirth world by Sephiroth. If you use assess on Sephiroth reborn it tells you he's in control of the Whispers, and that falls in line with beating the Arbiter of Fate boss at the end of Remake. That;s what Sephiroth gained by that defeat. Going back to that Aerith death scene we don't see Sephiroth stab Aerith, in fact we see Cloud's deflection of Masamune. All of us fans from 97 rejoice for a moment because Cloud saved Aerith. Then we start cutting to this Aerith is dead sequence. I think it's more likely that Sephiroth corrected the "death" with the Whispers at that moment, but also created a new timeline where Aerith is actually alive. You kind of see a similar corrective action with the whispers in Remake where Barret is impaled by Masamune, and then he's healed back to life because that didn't happen in the OG. Same with Cloud finding out he's was never in Soldier from Professor Hojo. Hojo is carried right out of the scene by the Whispers, so what's being demonstrated by this is that the Whispers are really powerful in terms of how the story or narration plays out. At the end of Remake the Whispers can be seen actually making a copy of Midgar (presumably for Zack and Biggs who survived in a different timeline). Another thing that makes me think Aerith is alive, is that in the end when you're fighting Sephiroth you see a version of Aerith come help you fight in. She's pretty potent version of Aerith too, but she mentions to Cloud "I saw what you did back there". She's got to be referring to the deflection of Masamune because WTF else could it be? I haven't heard many good arguments for that one yet, and obviously Jenova and Sephiroths goals aren't to help Cloud defeat Sephiroth. (that wouldn't make sense) Some of the Aerith is dead folks like to point to this NPC talk in "Cosmo Canyon" about peering through a looking glass using the lifestream etc. I do like to point out that Planetology is incomplete and possibly even incorrect in what they think is going on. The game goes to lengths to show this in discussions with Bugenhagen(for instance Tifa telling him the cries of the planet are actually the weapons), and while that is an interesting theory brought up by the NPC there is more evidence involved here pointing to other items and even unknown things happening here. The fact that Sephiroth seems to know exactly how ALL the events are going to playout and Aerith was even well aware of her "death" before it happened implies that we maybe looking at a memory of events in the OG amplified by the lifestream from the original game? OR maybe it is a marvel multi-verse? I like the memory idea better because it fits in FFVII better, but who knows? All just theory for now.

[@theonecalledlamorak6446]

Im praying to god the Jenova theory is not true. I never wanted a remake and was perfectly happy with the OG in 97 but if we were ever going to come back to this world I’d want them to do something different with new themes and story arcs. If Aerith is perma dead just like in the original here I’m bouncing on part 3; why make all these changes only to turn around and end up at the same spot? Just do a faithful remake then if that’s what it is.

[@jonofarrell9249]

What about when he says something to her about not going with them? He knows that she has to stay behind and fight sephiroth.... Why is no one talking about those lines that were said?

[@viclawrence30]

I think Eric knowingly could manipulate herself. In between all the different realities, cloud is doing it unknowingly. So in his mind, in one pop reality, he saved Eric and another 1. He failed to save her so when he sees her knowing all stuff. He's seeing her in that reality. Not the reality he's currently in. If that makes any sense

[@eji]

Nah I don't see the Jenova aspect, I think it's supposed to be eerie because it's trying to tell you she's actually dead. It's creepy/eerie because he's not accepting what everyone else already has. She's bathed in that same green lifestream glow that she has at the beginning of the game, she's back with the planet. Red acknowledging her is also a clue to that, he wouldn't be saying that if he sensed Jenova or something else. Cloud had a connection to Aerith so that's why he's seeing her in the last scene at the Tiny Bronco. The fact that she says she has to "stay here" and literally stays on the land / Gaia as the rest of them fly away means she's returned to the planet/lifestream and is waiting for the moment to save everyone, likely that key moment with Holy vs the Meteor that happened at the end of OG. The Black Materia isn't proof of a Jenova Aerith, it's the reminder that Cloud still has yet to have his mental break that will happen to him later on, he's still got a long way to go to regaining himself.

[@craigmarshall1980]

I have to be honest. I think your reaching here. I think its a bad explanation on why red can sense her. Its more likely he is sensing her spirit The game spends nearly 2 hours explaining multiple time lines and showing the consequences of decisions and actions creating new time lines The more likely story is that just like where there is a time line where zach is alive and zach is dead there are two time lines where aerith is alive snd dead and given cloud has bridged those time lines he can see both. And that is why red can sense her I dont believe that clouds screwed up head is projecting something that red can sense or rhat can fight along side cloud. I will say this i never played the origional so i am not wedded to if she lives or dies but online there seems to be three camps on the die hard fans 1. People angry she lived as its not true to the origional 2. People angry she still dies because it hurt them years ago to she her die 3. Angry the makers of the game did not have the conviction to do it one way or the other The shame of it is ots a great game and people are coming after others for an opinion. Either way i dont see many people like myself who are just happy with the story. (Or at least this part. Everyone loves the overall game) I think this person who you got this off is clutching at straws to create a narrative that fits his version of how he sees things which is fine but honestly i think its quite far off key to what this story and this version of final fantasy 7 is telling

[@LakrimaProject]

Fun theory, but I dont buy it.

[@Lunar_Crescentfall]

I prefer the scene in the OG. Isnt confusing, its tragic and very sad when it happens. Sure its a very old game and a lot know about the fate of Aerith in the OG, (unless they're brand new to the franchise and just playing the remakes) But when it happens, its a shock. Then after a fight breaks out with Jenova, like life just continues on even after a death. Then the scene where Cloud brings her into the lake. It was a moving and amazing scene in the OG. I just prefer the storytelling in OG FF7, leaves some things mysterious like Zack and what not, until you see the secret cutscenes in game. Of course, I do love how Rebirth remade some of the scenes and made it feel fresh and new. But the OG just has that atmosphere, where you can feel even more unsettled by Cloud and how he is getting more and more controlled by Sephiroth. Unfortunately this part of the game in rebirth did not make me feel sad, it made me more confused to whats going on, is Aerith alive or dead? Which I understand is the whole point of it, but I still very much prefer the scene in the original game.

[@ryanhorton9594]

Lol yall are looking too deep. This theory makes zero sense

[@Grittizard]

I think the Red XIII feeling her kind of destroys this theory. Pretty sure due to the multiverse portion Aerith is both alive and dead. Just kind of walking the Inbetween. The multiverse verse also kind of takes away the impact of Aerith death. Didn’t love the ending, hope part three pulls it all together.

[@St4rTr3v1Ut10n]

I don't think the Aerith in the ending is Jenova or a manipulation of some kind. It's too uplifting and doesn't make sense for the moment, like Aerith saying she'll send up smoke, and I don't think a Jenova thing would've interacted with Nanaki. I think that moment was the devs telling us "this is Aerith for real." The only thing making it "creepy" is the music when she first appears, which I believe to just be a musical sting to convey the uncanniness of seeing a person who is seemingly dead which is creepy regardless. I think (and honestly, I really FELT), the Aerith that joins you in the final battle, is none other than OG Aerith. She doesn't say "You saved me" or anything to that effect, but she's merely noting something she saw Cloud do. He didn't save 'that' Aerith. Moreover, Sephiroth's lines to her sound like he's seen her before

[@robertjones3489]

No. Cloud didn't make up a narrative where he saved Aerith. He saved her. Marlene even foreshadowed that "Cloud not saving" Aerith is what happens in these doomed worlds. She tells Zack to help Cloud so he can save Aerith, and yet you just ignore the child like she isn't even in the story. You even double down on Zack being dead, even though he was alive through Rebirth and interacting with Biggs and others where Cloud wasn't. Just stop cooking. There's no point in speculating if you don't understand the story elements. There is a reason why Cloud has false memories of Nibelheim, and it isn't because he's an "unreliable narrator in denial" with low self-esteem. His memory was rewritten. Clue 1: he sits down on the water tower without taking off his sword. Clue 2: Seph gets surrounded by the mayor and his posse but slowly kills each one without anyone putting up a fight. The town never burned. It's just another false memory. Instead of scrutinizing Aerith at the lake, why don't you scrutinize these idiots who let Seph stab them? Finally, in the ending, Aerith says she's going to stop Meteor. That means she's going to use Holy, that white materia which dropped into the lake...in the OG world. In the Rebirth world, she still has it, because Cloud passed it to her. In short, the party has moved to the OG world, while Aerith is alive in the Rebirth prime world.