The Commander Arms Race | Untitled MTG Podcast #21 (feat. Dave Kosin of Cool Stuff Inc.)

"We Commander players are really bad at divining the value of new cards. Unfortunately, we’re also very good at falling prey to FOMO." Check out more from Dave over at his article series at CoolStuffInc at www.coolstuffi... or follow him @daviekumd
Miss the last episode of Untitled Magic: The Gathering podcast? Check out "Starting Magic: The Gathering Through Commander" here: • Starting Magic: The Ga...
#magicthegathering #mtg #commander
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Huge shoutout and thanks to the talented @livingcardsmtg for developing the opening animation for the show!
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Music Courtesy Of:
"Vintage Education" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons...

[@apeirotopecrow7957]

CAN YOU BELIEVE MY PLAYGROUP IS DOING THIS TO MY POOR DECK

[@mtlacunae8659]

Can you believe they didn't let me cast my infinite combo???

[@jpickens189]

I love that Prof actually pushes his guests to justify their points and offers a lot of his own opinions rather than just rolling over and letting them say whatever they want.

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Would not be much of a discussion if I did not! I like it when they push back on me too.

[@bouncingdonut9969]

@@TolarianCommunityCollege The way it should be. excellent debating and discussing.

[@er00ic]

@@TolarianCommunityCollege I really liked the bit where you pushed back on so-called 'unfun' play styles (specifically stealing one's commander in this case).

[@bluefett1784]

Twss.

[@stevensatak1592]

The Prof will never make it as a major network star!

[@heirkaiba]

Seto Kaiba spends money to win games. Not to have fun in EDH. Screw the rules I have money!

[@somedudeontheinterwebs45]

Finally, we found the man who preordered all the Jeweled Lotuses.

[@Scantronimus466]

You and Yugi need to just f*ck already.

[@ykl1277]

@@somedudeontheinterwebs45 now Seto Kaiba only have 60%×infinite money

[@jpickens189]

Where is my CCG-based global economy?

[@jonfehl876]

So...really interested in seeing the “Hot Daxos” deck.

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Ask Dave if he has a decklist posted!

[@davekosin2346]

Here you go! scryfall.com/@mooks311/decks/0ad87dcc-1615-4bb8-bb3e-e0c7fcdd2536

[@WUBRGer_King]

Think its this one: www.coolstuffinc.com/a/davekosin-07172020-whoops-my-commander-deck-is-good

[@aarononeal201]

Just pick 99 crap unplayable white cards and you've got the deck. 😂

[@jonfehl876]

@@aarononeal201 dude, comments like this are why the magic community is the worst part of this game.

[@markalexander5578]

I am 99% sure this was a video to justify Prof purchasing a Gaea's Cradle.

[@Kattywagon29]

He works hard, I say let him have it.

[@abrahambennett4656]

i know I'm kinda randomly asking but do anybody know a good place to watch new movies online?

[@hamzatroy3595]

@Abraham Bennett I use Flixzone. Just google for it :)

[@gunnerprinceton9726]

@Hamza Troy yea, been using Flixzone for years myself =)

[@abrahambennett4656]

@Hamza Troy Thank you, I went there and it seems to work :D I really appreciate it !!

[@jacobsisson416]

You hit it exactly: Playgroup discussion, keep multiple decks and try new things (star magic, planechase etc)

[@JStack]

The arms race is out of hand on MTGO. Even with disclaimer *100% Jank, Testing, No Refined Decks* people join with turn 5 kozilek and say “well at least it’s not turn 3 with boots” The extreme power spike now makes it so “casual,” players are running what would be high power level decks two years ago.

[@frsk6460]

i just wanna play my jank foiled out faerie tribal. but i keep getting run over by atraxas and golos and worst of all godo. i am like turn 1 island next guy goes : ancient tomb mox opal , chrome mox sol ring sensei's divining top. that was like what 800$ for taht one turn? XD

[@Spoticus]

That's the first time I have heard anyone else making sure that the basic lands match the plane for your commander! You rock!

[@N7_Unseen]

I try to match the theme more than the plane, I have an uril deck with all snow lands because he’s a yeti. 😂

[@Spoticus]

@@N7_Unseen I like that, and love Uril.

[@MasterCrvo]

Uril was the first commander multiple members of my playgroup broke to pieces, in many ways signaling the event horizon of our own EDH arms race. Also the first card we soft-banned; it was the first deck we officially said, "Oh, well, if they're playing Uril, I'm changing decks." Social pressure caused pretty much all the Uril decks to walk back into the mist.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

My Breya deck only plays basics from Mirrodin

[@Spoticus]

@@felipeguidolin1055 nice, good looking lands and a fun block to play

[@ironocy496]

Life gain with no win con. Sounds like a level of hell I don't want to be on.

[@t3hDarkness]

Players that don't even try to win are disrespectful at best.

[@unrelentingawesomeness7501]

Yeah and then he's pissed ppl wanna play good cards

[@davidechiariotti1918]

Pay to win? Let me introduce you to my proxy tribal

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

YAS!

[@tonsofsodium6641]

This is maximum brain power. Shiiiiit, I've been working on proxies for cards I actually own just to save trouble on deck swapping. If I need ten Sol Rings, let me just doodle a picture for it.

[@elijahbrewer1820]

Proxy is a scourge. If you win using an imaginary card you do not own atleast 1 copy of your win is imaginary therefore doesnt exist.

[@A2Jmusic]

@@elijahbrewer1820 my buddy has a proxy cube that he made from bulk foils and transparencies. they look amazing in sleeves and I know he spent MONTHS of his time making them. thats just my statement lol

[@elijahbrewer1820]

@@A2Jmusic I will not waste my time with the proxy community. They and I shall never mix or agree.

[@picty4089]

Aquaman called, he wants his pants back.

[@NERDRA9E]

lmao i was like wtf r those but you totally nailed it

[@kristennorth3268]

This conversation seems to once again come down to people understanding their decks’ power levels and communicating about them ahead of time.

[@Yontanian]

When i played kitchen table 60 card constructed it was the same. No point in lining up against a championship winning deck with my bundle

[@GoodRogue]

My solution turned out to be trying out Pauper EDH. Power creep isn't scary when new staples are one dollar tops.

[@wurdofwizdumb1928]

My favourite edh deck is a pauper child of alara deck. I built it about 12 years ago. It’s actually the most enjoyable deck I own... and it wins ALOT. Grim harvest with spore frog is legitimately insane.

[@jpickens189]

But old staples are like $30 and don't get enough reprints.

[@Paul-Scarecrow1779]

@@jpickens189 There are almost no expensive cards in PDH. Lotus Petal and Rhystic Study are most expensive cards I can think of that actually see play.

[@jpickens189]

@@Paul-Scarecrow1779 There is still some barrier to entry, my one pdh deck is like $160 and is probably like an 8 on the normal edh power scale. The restriction limits power creep but doesn't really stop it.

[@wurdofwizdumb1928]

@@jpickens189 what is your general? can you post a list?

[@BigMoai]

This is a certified hood classic

[@artaharon5476]

best comment under a tcc video ever

[@Audico2]

DAAAAMN SON, where'd you find this?

[@dominicmetzger3246]

One of the issues for me isn’t so much the arms race, it’s the time requirement to always upgrade decks.

[@jerensteinbear]

I personally love to sit down and pour over cards for hours to find small improvements for my deck, but I can understand that some people either don't have the time or find the time investment unfun to do the same. I think I picked that habit up back in 3rd edition D&D when there were hundreds of splat books (or potentially thousands if you included 3rd party sources) and building optimized characters was a week long process.

[@bluedog4248]

Upgrading decks is a process. Normally after 10 games of playing with your deck, you quickly realize its strengths and weakness, and then you start to make changes. Most of the time it's small changes, optimizing card choice like "let me take out this creature for card draw" that lead up to a better deck expierence

[@ReZELpilot]

I think that's the main issue. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. With how many products are pushed though in recent years it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up.

[@keithcarsillo1748]

The “your fun at my expense” is wrong, is so arbitrary. Everybody gets to make a splashy play and then there is a winner...lol. Basically this idea begs that people play little to no interaction. This I find to be the biggest problem with Casual crowd. Is it really that hard to put some interaction in your deck that stops other players from doing OP plays?

[@Kattywagon29]

I used to update my decks every time a new set came out, but that became cumbersome. Now I try to evaluate and make only necessary upgrades twice a year. There's only so many slots in my Meren deck - Instead of repeatedly rebuilding a deck, I've just started adding new decks to my collection and are trying to make sure they are distinct from each other. I don't need 5 graveyard themed decks, ya know?

[@colonelgreathed1321]

I just started playing Commander this year (and Magic entirely) and was introduced by a group of long-term players with pretty impressive collections. It was a bit of a challenge once the beginner phase wore off and they stopped holding back, and I had to invest quite a bit to stay competitive. Luckily, they are pretty cool and are willing to play at lower power for the sake of fun sometimes. Edit: The point is it boils down to communication with who you are playing with and coming to a consensus on what power level you want to play at.

[@bouncingdonut9969]

Bingo

[@SifSehwan]

You should ask them, if they are OK with you proxying a few cards. Most people don't really mind as long as you proxy a reasonable amount.

[@bouncingdonut9969]

@@SifSehwan exactly. However if you want to proxy these super "OP" cards just to shove them into the deck. Thats a no go from me dawg. However if its a reasonable addition due to $$$$. I have Zero issue with that. But do you really NEED gais cradle? Is growing rite of itlamac (I probably spelt that wrong) not good enough???

[@1Phont1]

I started last year with a pre con and I feel the same. Had to race each week to get the cards and I’m still a behind in deck building and knowing which are good cards! Although EDHrec has been a life saver.

[@ZanZerejin]

Had a similar experiense. Got into commander back in 2015, and until that point I had only played standard (from 2012). It was a lot of new cards to learn, combos, stacks etc. When that phase was over and I invested in some cards to use for commander I got to have a lot more fun. Mainly because of the playgroup was just so nice to hang around with.

[@luisenriquerodriguezherrea8173]

I simply loved this episode. So true in so many points! excellent job, prof!

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@RandomCommenter955]

The razor blade analogy was hilarious 😂

[@kherubim1]

Agreed, and it was a very good analogy

[@mthlay15]

Engagement because this is a great topic. I feel there's quite a difference between edh and standard. In my opinion this "drama" of powercreep stems from that unsaid rule of standard/sealed of "win at all costs" instead of edh's rule of "let's have fun at all costs".

[@awdawdawdawdawdawful]

I'd agree except when you have 1 guy who plays super super cut throat in your play group and it just sours the taste and game for everyone else trying to do their big splashy game

[@justinhoudeshell4031]

Playing for fun is great but people should still be trying to win. It's a game and somebody has to win other wise you sit there all night with nothing really happening.

[@rodgerlang884]

The biggest problem is many people have many different ideas of fun. A friend of mine had a full on Stasis deck for a long time. It was fun for him making that work, but excruciating for me to play against.

[@awdawdawdawdawdawful]

@@justinhoudeshell4031 yer so the big splashy plays we do cant just be for spinning wheels but definitely have to advance the game towards winning it's the attitude towards winning and to what cost of other people at the table. So for example most of the rest of us all want to win but want everyone the opportunity to have a chance of playing their big splashy play so we usually try and go for the win around turn 6-7 and if someone is super mana screwed not actively pick on them. The 1 guy I'm talking about wont care take the mana screwed guy out and just never give the guy a chance of getting back into the game

[@awdawdawdawdawdawful]

@@rodgerlang884 yer that's exactly what I'm trying to get at and I guess for me it's cool if that guy wants to do it but tall to the others first and then also they are cool with that line of play shoot I wouldnt mind as long as everyone else is

[@fumin2689]

me: Are you gonna ultimate Tevesh? some evil edh player: yup me: sweet my commander says Phage

[@Buugipopuu]

"The solution isn't to spend $200 on a Commander deck, it's to spend $1400 on seven Commander decks." - The Professor, December 2020.

[@gadoo24]

This is a very good episode and I love the communication between the two of you. The thing I like the most about this episode is the "I don't want my fun to stop you from having fun" and I love that this conversation is being had. I'm a person who is having fun when everyone is having fun

[@TobiasBroad]

The systems in place to police the format: Rule Zero/Power Levels/The Social Contract. where never universally understood or accepted. Moreover they are insufficient when Commander is the most popular and widely played format especially when it’s now being played more often and through different mediums with strangers.

[@rodgerlang884]

And everyone really has a different idea of what power level is

[@TobiasBroad]

@@rodgerlang884 yes, exactly and that is a rather a large floor. And that’s when people understand the concept, of the 200 Magic players in my city none have ever heard of these ideas.

[@frsk6460]

@@TobiasBroad i played with a lot of people that told me their deck was "mid" in terms of power sometimes it was lesss but most of the times it was some turbo combo win turn 4 deck. which really doesnt belong in "mid" but thats the problem. EDH isnt curated properly.

[@daltongrimes7850]

This series has quickly become my favorite series of yours. I love the in-depth conversations you curate, and the variety of different topics you have hit upon so far. Thank you!

[@tempestofthought]

In our play group we have a rule of "I'm fine with you playing it if you're fine with me blowing it up", it tends to solve most issues.

[@panga910317]

Until someone starts playing gods as commanders which, unfortunately, are way harder to interact with compared to any other creature.

[@calenhoover1124]

@@panga910317 The indestructible god cards are a plague. The fact that they also count as enchantments for decks that want to abuse that mechanic *cough* GHEN *COUGH* is frustrating to play against to say the least.

[@adamkhan1687]

@@calenhoover1124 I think this is a great example of the video in action. I just got home from trading in some cards for a secret lair Nylea, and I was feeling so jazzed, then I stumbled on your comment. If I strolled into a card shop and the first interaction is complaining about my new commander, it’s going to really sour the game before it gets off the ground. BTW yes I have a separate CEDH deck specifically for that, so I thought I was being reasonable with a mono green God commander, but I guess I’m the plague.

[@chrisdesjeunes3691]

@@adamkhan1687 @Adam Khan Play your Nylea and don't mind people. It's like there are no answers in the game to get around indestructible : like white exiles your stuff, black makes you sacrifice creatures (when they have enough devotion), blue counters your things. There are enchantements that make your creatures irrelevent like darksteel mutation, frogify, imprisoned in the moon... They even just printed an equipment that deals with indestructible. None of these cards are expensive. If 3 other people don't have an answer for your God, it's a them problem, it's not really yours. :)

[@tgva8889]

Yeah, in my playgroup indestructible is often funny flavor text. I can't tell you the last time I played against non-exile removal.

[@detatchedobserver7575]

I think white fixes a lot of this. Part of the issue is that most edh players that I’ve played with don’t love hate bears, land destruction, resource denial, stax, or running lots of removal. It seems like a case of wanting things both ways. If you want to curb an arms race, leaning more into white’s strengths checks many degenerate strategies. For example, if you choose to run big mana decks, you may need to deal with a static orb or Thalia every now and then. Edh would be much more balanced if the culture around what’s fun shifts to include more of white’s strengths.

[@BeeCrab]

My first response to "look what I got, gaea's cradle" isn't to recoil, it's to go "hell yeah, that's sick"

[@ich3730]

plus there are so many ways to copy/steal/use other players cards now. using manascape reflector or thespians stage to yoink opposing cabal coffers or cradle is just sweet and lets you abuse their effects without spending money xD

[@ralphengland8559]

I dunno, a single awesome card is fine. Its the total change to a groups meta that proves problematic. My solution has been to build multiple decks and leave them mostly alone once “finished” and pull them out when my buds are playing similarly powered decks.

[@maskedfallen1331]

I always say if you have them play them. As long as your honest with what your deck does at the table. I think every deck tbh should have a way with dealing with a problematic land.

[@runcmd1419]

So anyways, I cast Ruination.

[@mikelegault9344]

I love tinkering and tuning my decks, if they bring problematic cards there are always cheap options to take care of them, and if anyone brings out anything busted you can turn to the rest of the table and start playing Archenemy.

[@sedonex]

This was such a great conversation. I'm all for people owning and running multiple decks to rotate through during game nights. My big concern is that new players may not have the card selection to do that, at least not effectively. In the pre-Covid times I had a really sweet Marwyn elfball deck that I would bring to game stores expressly to loan new players, so that no matter what the table was doing, they could get in and play at the same level.

[@Racnive]

Commander has two opposing goals: "Play what your opponents can enjoy" and "Play what you enjoy (which probably involves winning)". The first can only sustain itself within a self-policing repeated group, because it's a classic prisoner's dilemma: playing what you enjoy is always more fun *for you*. At best, a person that is highly empathic (shares in others' fun) and has noncompetitive goals (being creative/splashy/chaotic) can accomplish both simultaneously, but that's dependent on their personality. We can't restrict the format to people with that personality. You can introduce chaotic elements for winning (points system/planechase) to level the playing field somewhat, but someone that wants to win can always optimize for them.

[@patrickcreamer6791]

At 10:00, when talking about razor blades, what I *heard* Prof say was, “Stick another razor on there, it’s the Mox Seven”

[@malouqvastor4455]

Sen triplets but each one is it’s own card Gavin: WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN! Disclaimer: This is a joke

[@kherubim1]

Oh no...😱

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Each Triplet has "Partner partner (may be partner with up to two commanders that have Partner partner)".

[@gypsieking3280]

If the triplets had "Partner with" blank and blank. This would work and I am here for it.

[@Kattywagon29]

I want that to happen though...just not with the partner mechanic attached.

[@ScornfulEg0tist]

Alternatively two of them could be specific partners and the third one could be a companion with the deck building condition that you're playing the other two as commanders

[@chrisborakai8457]

Great chat 👌 Good points brought up. As a long time edh player, the “arms race” / new cards is fun and keeps me up to date with new sets / buying singles. Keeps interest in my decks and fun new options so they don’t get boring. Can always put the old cards back in as well. Though I’m on a budget, usually putting in the new good $2 creature that synergies with my strategy. As a Shirei player, finding new 1 power creatures to use is enjoyable. Love using new budget stuff and breaking it. Nothing more satisfying then stomping the LGS guy with a $2000 deck with my $60 Shirei common death loops.

[@jamesoakley9333]

🤣🤣🤣

[@TheChusc28]

We had a arms race in our play group this year. Someone in my play group picked up a Tabernacle in January. and Now i have the 5 original power lands - Tabernacle, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Karakas, Library of Alexandria.

[@Don_Roberts]

Karakas is banned in Commander though? Unless you're playing a different format.

[@scottmacadams9129]

Personally I have always abided by this creed. Be sure to read the room /game and most importantly just because you have a card/combo or legal target(ie land) does not mean you have to make that play. With great power comes an even greater responsibility. Please remember commander is a social game meant to be fun for all those playing

[@felipeguidolin1055]

I kinda disagree. I believe that once the game starts, you should be playing at the best level you can, holding back/giving yourself a handicap is almost a disrespect to your opponent. However, I will actively avoid putting Infinite Combos or Insta-Wins cards in my decks.

[@scottmacadams9129]

@@felipeguidolin1055 I can understand that mindset, personally, I only play like that when playing CEDH and not just casually. I feel like there is a way of holding back that is disrespectful and a way that's not. For example if my friend asks for one more turn and not to finish them off most of the time I will let them and not just go for the kill. Or if the board is just wiped by someone else and someone just rebuilt but are now out of gas and you happen to have another wipe but choose not to play it. I am probably too empathetic for my own good but I also tend to play very casual games that have no incentive to win and are more about the social interaction between the group.

[@Danielsworlds]

I have a few decks of varying power levels in order to match the table that I'm playing with. I do however upgrade those decks as new cards come out but his very rarely is a significant boost in power and is often a quality of life change. I do however have one deck that I will not upgrade anymore as it is on the upper level of power for where I feel a casual commander deck can beat. The path to upgrading the deck further is a very clear and obvious one but I refused to take it down that road because it will consistently start winning on Turn 3 and that's not really fun for anybody if they didn't sign up for that kind of game

[@aznsbd]

I have a huge Magic collection dating back 20 plus years and I enjoy trying to find spots for cards that don't see play in other formats.

[@JoshuaSanville]

That point about a new player being stomped after being told it was a casual format really hit home for me. My first time ever playing commander I sat down with three of my friends who tought me how to play with my awful Doran toughness deck, and they pulled out Najeela, Atraxa Superfriends, and Brago Stax. I almost quit the format after that. Thank goodness I found a playgroup that is social/casual enough to let me explore my interests and learn and develop without completely stomping me.

[@mikki429]

I'm so glad to hear that someone else matches their basic lands to their Commander! Everyone in my playgroup thinks it's weird that I do that.

[@hellheaven11]

I personally like to have my basic lands from all different sets for my 10 edh decks

[@brennanclement8582]

It's weird for sure, but I think it's cool!

[@felipeguidolin1055]

My Breya deck only has basics from Mirrodin

[@kherubim1]

New Phyrexia lands for Infect commanders!

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

I bought two of my friends each a copy of Mana Drain for their EDH decks. SELF-INFLICTED ARMS RAAAAAACE

[@ironocy496]

Hey everybody there's a self inflicted arms race!

[@sirrzoidberg3771]

Can I be your friend?

[@aceviru]

Prof, you nailed it in the head with needing multiple decks. The solution lies in WotC wanting to make a less in the short run to profit more in the long run. Making $20-30 precons of different archetypes with good value year after year gives us the choice to keep good backups that we as players can choose to keep as is or upgrade. The Inalla precon was very underwhelming. So I've dedicated my time to making that jank better. I'm never going to go out of my way to drop it and make new decks that I don't know I may not enjoy. It'll just be wasted money and a frustrating experience. But feed me precons to choose from that aren't overcosted in mana cost, and I'll buy in.

[@aidankeyes5526]

I think a healthy way to look at the game is coming to the session ready to lose 75% of the time. Some days that means no wins some days you'll get 3 wins. But if 4 people split the wins you should only expect around the average.

[@janbeetz5913]

The key for me to that arms race is to play as few win cons as possible and not playing to win, even with my full-tuned pirate decks with fetches and original duals, because...... If I play just for my own joy without regarding my other players fun, I will very fast have no one to play with. Making sure everybody is having fun means, that my guests will come back to my house and play with me again. So nowadays I ask myself at any card choice: "is my Playgroup having fun, when I play that?"

[@nattynorth]

hearing the professor talk about on theme and artwork includes in his edh was super relatable for me.

[@nattynorth]

though for the play to win point he made, i feel it's not a very positive mindstate to have when you are playing a game as it distracts from the enjoyment of the playing of the game itself. There is nothing wrong with going for a win but I feel it almost defeats the purpose of any game which is enjoying the game itself.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

Jumping on the Monopoly example... Playing a fully optimized deck vs a precon is like starting a game with all Baltic Avenue already owned. Everyone else is fighting over scraps while you are already making hotels. The other players won't have fun if they know defeat is inevitable, and they will be less likely to want to play again. Keeping everyone at the same power level, however high or low it may be, keeps games more "fair" for everyone.

[@thefrizmeister3666]

I know this is cliché however this is a saying for a reason. Communication is key.

[@thefrizmeister3666]

Some things were never made "specifically" to be competitive. Such as EDH. My understanding is EDH was created by pro players in-between competitive matches just to have fun. I believe it's foundation should stay in the realm of let's just have fun. Build a deck that expresses you.

[@felipeseba5149]

Thanks for the great video, guys! A high note for me was that just after Prof's shaving blade analogy, I got a Gillette ad lol

[@TheYellowPack]

I find that the arms race can lead to two different things (My example in both cases will be Jeweled Lotus): 1. People get the cards that others play just because they are good. It's strictly better commander ramp and does something that no other card in magic really does. 2. Players adapt to the arms race in order to negate the need to keep up with stronger cards. If I'm playing a 3 colour deck I probably won't run the Lotus because I feel the need to run Collector Ouphe the more people begin to run the powerful artifact, and boy oh boy is it cheaper.

[@FlameMage2]

I don't even play commander but I'm gonna watch this whole video because this stuff is fascinating. Thanks as always Professor!

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@aarononeal201]

I wouldn't suggest that you start playing Commander either. Not worth the headache.

[@neilcotton9184]

Really great conversation and great conclusions. Commander is like a neighbourhood which has become gentrified. The solution is to find somewhere new to start over . custom rules and innovation by players themselves offers the best chance of this.

[@LordViral2]

" The only winning move is not to play Commander."

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

OMG, that hilarious

[@mementomori5985]

“Zugzwang” A term in chess, when the only viable move, is to not move at all.

[@rosavigXD]

@@mementomori5985 Zugzwang is a term when your opponent is forced into a non-optimal(sometimes strict) line of movement's (they're in a cage) normally resulting in they're inevitable Lost

[@LivingThing28]

Golden ending

[@danacoleman4007]

golden earring?

[@brockmckelvey7327]

The most powerful thing a new player can do is BUY SINGLES FROM THEIR LOCAL GAME STORE I remember the switch our early playgroup went through from "cards I have" to "cards I got from packs" to "cards I bought individually from the LGS/Internet"

[@kherubim1]

Great point on Tevesh Szat, it feels bad to lose your commander. If getting your commander shuffled into your deck is annoying (which was why the tuck rule was changed), having it stolen is outright frustrating.

[@pinballwitch5256]

okay, good chat, lots of good important things, but there's a few big things I think was completely left out of this conversation that needs to be addressed by the community: People not fortunate enough to have playgroups, miscommunications in our language as they relate to rule 0, and the homogenization of "casual magic" into a single format that was never intended for that purpose. I've left plenty of long comments on these and other things that I personally feel need to be addressed more in these very comments on your channel, but I think I'm going to finally have to write an open letter about these issues, and this video has helped me greatly form those ideas into more sharable thoughts. so thanks.

[@goaliemann5533]

Dave, that nerf gun dig at the end made me lolololol super hard

[@ryaneddy5487]

7, 8, 9 commander decks. Those are rookie numbers! I'm working on my 39th right now!

[@dam49365]

For commander you can balance decks by following what your deck wants to do. Not just focusing on winning fast.

[@emmanuelmadail]

Really weird to hear the prof say he finds it problematic for someone to run a card that hoses a specific tech of another player they regularly play against. That’s kinda the whole fun of an arms race within a play group. I play Thraximundar, I’m expecting one of my opponents to run a Sigarda, if their deck allows for it, to counter me. And I make sure to run non-sacrifice based removal in my deck just in case. An arms race can be quite fun in a group’s meta. It keeps it evolving. It doesn’t always have to mean spending more, just building differently to keep everyone’s power level at the table in check.

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

The issue for me with cards like Chulane and some of the cards in Commander Legends (Apex Devastator) is that you end up in a situation where cards have way too many effects tacked onto them and you end up in a Yugioh situation where you barely even consider what your opponent is doing anymore. You're playing to your win condition and ignoring everything else around you. This is what I worry about most happening to MTG.

[@ykl1277]

Apex devastator is fine as a card. You spend 10 mana for an average of a ramp spell or medium draw spell, a mistimed removal and 2 mid size threats. It is no expropriate or anything close. It already assumes you don't have a counterspell or X spell that don't cascade well. Even if you cheat the mana cost, there's enough win the game 10 mana spells that's already better than Apex devastator

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

​@@ykl1277 The problem with Apex Devastator isn't with the power of the card, but rather having to sit through someone doing four cascade triggers. You don't want to have people sitting around doing nothing for too long. Expropriate at least allows everyone in on the decision making process. Apex Devastator is pretty much just watching one person play with the top of their deck.

[@brunodavidgregoriferre3743]

What I love about commander is that if I go to EDHRec or Goldfish because I want to build say, a Tatyova deck is that I have a myriad of options from where to choose from to build the deck, I have 2000 cards from which I can choose only 99, and trying to guess which are the betters or the ones that I should keep is the most fun. But I fear an arms race because it seems like there are more auto-includes than ever. I fear one day wanting to build a commander and having just 150 cards from which to choose from if I want to play "properly". I fear that one day my beloved Sword of The Animist will become a Wishcoin Crab.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

If you follow Command Zone templates, or even the one's Prof has done, between all the slots for ramp, removal, draw, lands, auto-includes, etc, you only get like 25 slots to actually DO the thing your deck wants to do.

[@voweless]

Great video, Prof and Dave. Talking to other players is great. :]

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ReZELpilot]

I replied to another comment down here, but thought I should say it here. Domini Metzger had a great point about the time aspect the arms race brings to Commander. I think that's one of the main and unspoken issues here. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. But especially in the last 4 years or so it feels like with how many products and overpowered cards are pushed in our faces, it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up. This isn't standard or extended, I didn't abandon those formats back in 2012 or 2013 to face the issue of rotation and the costs of it now. I know I don't usually run into this issue as much now that I'm more seasoned and can ignore the itchy feeling in my wallet to buy the better version of some cards, but I know it turns ppl off when they feel like they have to buy $35-$80 cards to keep up every 2 or 3 months.

[@roydenhunt]

I like the point on, "just have more decks." Not all your decks have to be the best. I'm currently rotating through 14 different decks in my play group. Therefore my decks power levels range in; does one specific thing to win, to just a fun themed deck I through together with cards already in my collection. Magic is a game of deck building, and you can do whatever you want with it.

[@chrisborakai8457]

As an EDH player, having multiple decks is a huge bonus for playgroups as you guys stated. I personally have a Chulane deck which I enjoy playing. It’s budgetish around $150 with no Craterhoof and mainly cards under $5. The nice thing about Chulane is that he is cheap with a lot of power, that allows budget players to compete with higher power level decks that cost a lot more money. Because of Chulane I can play budget with competitive people with $2000+ decks and I still have a chance to win. Cheap powerful cards are a huge help to players like himself. But I also have weaker decks, all the way down to a Stitcher Geralf janky monk-blue zombie tribal that is purely fun and flavour.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

This is why finding an accommodating cEDH group is one of the best things that can happen to your MtG life. It's casual that has all the gatekeeping and drama.

[@BickyNuckley]

Not everyone is willing to spend the money it takes to make a deck cEDH viable.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

@@BickyNuckley Equating cEDH with cost is a common misconception. Even casual decks can be expensive and good cEDH decks can be cheap while remaining focused. It's more of having a different Rule Zero. Sitting in a cEDH pod means automatically accepting that everyone is playing to win and that when someone goes after you, it's simply part of their strategy. To each on their own I guess but I'd personally rather play and lose to people who took the time and effort to optimize their decks than to win against someone who purposely puts jank in his "fun" deck then complains about power level and politics. At the very least, games will be done faster so you could all play again.

[@jacobmullin3428]

“It’s not gonna matter professor, you aren’t going to win with a Nerf gun no matter how big the darts are.” Oh ho ho.... *pulls out NERF Centurion mega blaster and lays down Nerf War* I beg to disagree!

[@richardpitt8177]

Great video! The thing I think people miss though with Tevesh is that he encourages you to sacrifice those stolen commanders after stealing them. As such, anyone playing him that doesn’t want to be a (insert bad word) has a reason (draw 3 cards) to do so. I think to be fair to Wizards, they designed the card with that in mind.

[@ShotensGaming]

18:00 it's not as long as everyone has fun, it's more along the lines that everyone agrees and plays with the same expectations.

[@straborn]

Please, do define what fun is. If you play your mono white Daxos deck with no win conditions, in even a moderately strong table, what do you achieve? What is your goal? are you playing a kingmaker? Are your the one with the boardwipes and this makes you happy, or are the one who minds his own business and does nothing in particular. Is winning at all important for you. Do you feel bad when you lose and as the prof said, who is to blame then when you on purpose chose it?

[@golgariguy]

Very nice video! I think that one of the most important steps in stopping me from running the arms race was realizing that EDH is not about winning. For example I have a (blue) Braids deck that's not about winning but about having everyone at the table make huge, ridiculous plays. Sure, the deck can win, and it is decently optimized in its own way, but that's not the focus. The focus is having fun and making everyone do crazy stuff, and it's one of the decks I enjoy the most 😁

[@MrLoowiz]

I have a monoblack commander. I intentionally didn't put in any tutor or Necropotence. I just wished people would focus on having fun, and stopped going all in for the win, spending thousands of dollars in cards with minimal optimization, just to have the very best cards.

[@DoomGuyDestructotron]

I am a huge fan of Dave but I think his argument is strange regarding his Daxos deck. He is advocating not running any win cons in your deck is what it sounds like. Running win cons makes your deck boring, strong, and unfun? Games gotta end sometime. In mono white lifegain, you have limited options to end the game and he is against them. If 4 people sat down with decks like that the game would go for 4 hours. I agree with a lot of what he said but that argument seems strange to me.

[@aarononeal201]

That's pretty much the core belief of Commander. You can build either consistent decks or you can play powerful decks but you can't play consistently powerful decks.

[@Gladius714]

Yea he seems to contradict himself quite a bit

[@felipeguidolin1055]

I think there is a difference between playing a Win Con, and having an "insta-win" card like Mechanized Production in a thopter deck.

[@carlosdias854]

i'd say my signature deck is my atraxa superfriends, but I still have a lot of fun playing with my hydra tribal or with my gishath one. I always try to match my dexk powerlevel with the table i'm going to play with, That's where the fun comes from.

[@Korlis5]

"I don't want to play fair Brago because then I'll play a bad deck, and I don't want that" Earlier : "I play Mono W Daxos with no wincons" Well that seems kinda contradictory

[@davekosin2346]

What I meant with the Brago bit is that I wanted to play it the way I built it, and if I rebuilt it to power it way down I wouldn’t have enjoyed it, so I chose to nuke the deck altogether. I built Daxos *explicitly* to not be powerful. And you’re right, there’s contradictions everywhere. That’s the nature of these discussions! Very little about the philosophical side of Commander is black and white.

[@Korlis5]

@@davekosin2346 Okay, thanks for the answer

[@kickinwang1817]

I can sympathize with Dave here actually. I'm fine with playing a bad deck. I'm much less fine with actively trying to make a good deck bad. I'd rather play my bad deck than try to make one of my good decks "bad enough".

[@Yontanian]

Ive made my yarok worst by trying to redirect the value i get from etb into a mill/graveyard strategy. I now like it more, even though ive probably knocked it down by at least 1 power tier.

[@Stirbreich]

I am changing all the cards in my Commander deck to cards with the old card frame because I think they look nicer. I'm aware that it will maybe decrease the power level of my deck but I like the challange to get it to do what it is supposed to do ^^

[@damonlouis6536]

I started EDH in a tight group that encouraged creativity mainly by discouraging good stuffs i.e. tutor bans. That group fell apart due to expanding the group and including people of a different mind set. Since then I have played in the wild mainly at lgs. I tried promoting old school EDH (pre-mirrodin) but realized people want to play with new shiny toys. Having an optimized mana base is fine and usually makes games less clunky in early turns, having good stuffs is fine and kinda necessary in order to compete in average mettas. What I try to encourage as an elder dragon is a flavor race. I personally still ban tutors, I don't play op generals and try not to cast my general regardless, but my biggest flavor push is to not build optimally. If you can predict the outcome before playing based on the generals and then that outcome becomes true, well you just played a boring game. To not be predictable is easily attained by removing the usual wincons, if something is overplayed (hoof), if it elicits groans (lattice), if it's too easy (combo), if it becomes sollitare (extra turns), just remove it. I find the longer people have played the more likely they are to agree with these principles. Newer players have less of a base to compare this too because they haven't seen hoof end games. They don't want to pull cards because they don't have a wide collection to sub them with. And they don't get that combo is easy because they havn't seen it enough to have an opinion formed by it.The RC has done a poor job conveying what casual is as well. Hardly any of the people I play with know who Sheldon is or what rule 0 is. To make it worse wotc is catering to spikes whom are now flooding casual tables. Be the change you desire to see in EDH. My hope is that other people start a flavor race too.

[@ThisNameIsBanned]

Casual plebs can play whatever they want. Competitive players will always opt to play the best cards. Make sure you and the people you play with have the same mindset.

[@raven6717]

That Craw Wurm in the thumbnail makes me really nostalgic, as it was in the first deck I ever played with together with my girlfriend at the time, even if that was only 3 years ago

[@BoToChris]

Hell is other people, but this video makes Commander sound close.

[@VexylObby]

I think it is pretty simple. You choose which cards to use, and you play in a four player format. Know your audience. If they don't want to play against specific strategies, then respect that. Same goes for you. You don't have to be forced to play in any circle.

[@Cyberbobafett321]

For me, an important part of playing Commander is to NOT tell other players what they can and can't have in their deck. Its my responsibility, as a player, to understand the game, understand the cards and how they may interact. It is then MY responsibility to decide if I want to play against certain decks.

[@shadogiant]

The trouble is that you can't play unless you make larger and larger commitments. There come a point where your playgroup is so much more optimized then your deck and you get prices out.

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

veyr true.

[@rosavanopheusden5211]

The Prof makes a strong argument here for why Rule Zero is completely ineffectual in practice

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Ayep.

[@davekosin2346]

I disagree strongly-but that’s the whole point of respectful debate! Mission accomplished

[@kevinclark6776]

I think the Arms Race is a great part of the Format. I like the ability to keep looking for cards and searching around for the greatest editions of cards. Archaic out of date decks are great too.

[@thirdwavefinance8154]

I like the idea of the points system for “casual commander”. Having a rule zero conversation every time you start a game, going through which cards & combos are not ok, is obnoxious. Game rules are set so that this does not have to take place and adding a points system to “casual commander” rules seems like the way to go.

[@skitzhh]

Any discussion of the Tuck Rule gives me PTSD for completely different reasons

[@A2Jmusic]

haha yes! #fbrady

[@maidenless_tarnished]

Prof, you are a dapper looking man. Don't let that inner voice tell you any different

[@nagobcnik]

We just pile all our decks on the table, assign them numbers, then roll a die (or some other form of RNG) and play the decks we "rolled". This also means we often play with decks that are not ours and we don't have as much saltiness regarding who runs what. If the majority of the group agrees a certain deck is not fun, we remove it from the pool. We are having more fun than before and I recommend this way of playing.

[@calebmullins2199]

THANK YOU PROF! i enjoy videos like this one and was refreshing hoping to find and untitled podcast!

[@czcbearsrule1]

Prof in 2018: We need better answers there is nothing unfun about counters and steal effects and stopping your opponent's gameplan Prof in 2020: The perfect game of commander is when everyone gets to do their thing and nobody stops people from having fun.

[@dandube99]

A lot of the time is the arms race leads to people with stricter budgets being left in the dust by those who have more disposable income for a longer time.

[@Mtonazzi]

Reminds me of a time, dealing with guys that made less than me per month, but while I have a family, they can afford to dedicate almost 100% of their paycheck on MTG xD

[@mella4376]

Printing proxies is really quite cheap though

[@rodgerlang884]

@@mella4376 This is totally dependent on your playgroup. Mine is only ok with pro ting cards we actually own

[@mella4376]

@@rodgerlang884 that's fair, but I'd find it morally abhorrent to tell someone they can't fully play with their friend's hobby because they didn't score enough Capitalism Points ffs (especially with super expensive out of print stuff that doesn't even support the company you may want to support)

[@kickinwang1817]

@@rodgerlang884 if there is a disparity in power level in the group, and it's due to difference in income- it'd be pretty scummy of the more fortunate ones to deny the others a fair chance to compete.

[@Beanz961]

Ngl a triple partner Legendary Sen Triplets sounds really fun. One's white, one's blue and one's black they all interact with each other some way. Nice thinking Prof

[@chachi_arcola]

Everyone in every playgroup should have access to, say for example, Gaea's Cradle if they want to play with the most powerful legal cards. A print out that you cut to fit into a sleeve or even a nice $3 proxy that you buy online. Same goes for Mox Diamond, Volcanic Island etc etc. No one has to spend crazy money on this stuff if everyone, as friends, agrees that proxies are cool and you're all free to print up whatever you want to have fun with

[@the_names_rob]

hot take as someone who didnt play magic for 10 yrs power creep makes the barrier to entry easier

[@Moonsault37]

soooo hot

[@kindredspirit9703]

Barrier to entry is lower, cost of keeping up is higher

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

It is up to a certain degree. But, there are lots of problems with tacking on too many abilities onto a single card. You end up with situations where people spend a lot of time asking to see and read cards or triggers upon triggers that force you to sit back and just watch someone do something, like Apex Devastator. The 4 cascades on top of each other is over the top.

[@the_names_rob]

@@ohnosmoarlulcatz maybe. but like i said ive been playing since guilds of ravnica and that style is pretty much all ive known. also having more vanilla or french vanilla style cards is boring and not innovative

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

@@the_names_rob Yep, but at some point, there's too much. The recent Apex Devastator is an example of this. The four cascade triggers just takes too long to resolve.

[@lollertoaster]

Aetherflux Reservoir would be such a fun deck if it said "if you have 30 more life than your starting life total"

[@cannibalskitchen8421]

Something my playgroup liked doing when we could still play in person was laying all our decks out in a grid, and rolling to determine who played what. It has this chaos draft sort of energy that just made stuff fun even when my Arcum Dagsson deck dunks on everyone else in turn 8.

[@danacoleman4007]

cool

[@SifSehwan]

This guy knows what he is talking about, imho a lot of the issues we face can be fixed by proxying, most places where I play allow it. People will proxy lands fetches or not, tutors and other inaccessible/prohibitively expensive cards. I am OK with that, because I want to have more people to play with at any power level. The only reason we have some kids playing the game is because we allow them to proxy some cards, you can't just paywall people.

[@Veiwer77]

It all depends on your playgroup. If you find the right one that fits your expectations then there shouldn't be an issue with an arms race.

[@endersblade]

This has been the number one biggest issue I have in my meta - at least one of my friends is all about "if you can play it, you play it". I refuse to play or build like that. I build decks I will enjoy playing, regardless whether I win or lose. I mostly build tribal decks. I will intentionally leave good cards out of a deck if they don't fit the overall THEME of the deck. I don't run stax cards in non-stax decks. I don't run cards that will completely lock down the game, or prevent one or more people from playing. If I'm playing a 4p game, I don't want 3 people watching me play Solitaire, and I despise people who do that.