The Conflicted Combat of Darksiders 2

[@TurboButton]

So this video required a decent bit of research on my part considering Darksiders 2 hasn't exactly been talked about like this in the way DMC or Bayonetta have. As such, there's a lot of excess notes I took on the fighting system (some quite positive) that didn't fit into the overall video so if you want to read those, they're in the description.

[@H92-v6w]

First of all amazing video :D, this combat had another very simple problem in the campaign in its normal difficult mode (which is the one most players pick in their first playthough and so the one is supposed to be designed for the players to enjoy it for their first time), get CHAOS FANGS and pure CRITICAL build automatic EZ mode enabled. Just my own experience, when you mix rpg elements the numbers can get out of control, furthermore you cant always relay in your skills unleash you got enough level (Deposed King boos fight) and unlike other games you mentiones in darksiders 2 you just cant always win if you havent farmed and if you farm too hard with a crits build then it gets too ez =(. And i miss grabbing weak enemies and excute them more often XD.

[@ANDELE3025]

1. Not using the targeting system is 100% the way to go (or at least 95% of the way to go, using the tap for quick refocus can be nice vs multiple big mooks), all skills have proper cleave across their animation and hitboxes of mook npcs span out of the model instead of being inside it (nothing against bayo, that works perfectly for score/medal focus) because the camera is trash from age old console design. 2. Just for the video i went through the entire bloody Kingdom of Skelly, attack that you cannot stagger on any of the mooks is the armored skellys glowing arm overhead attack. As for the skating i have no excuse except they carried it over from DS1 (like the shitty camera). 3. Partial point only because you got 2 dodge attack upgrades (the timed counter dodge and the roll spin upgrade) which can be rolled into most combo attacks (or at least not drop the hit count), tho gameplay changing upgrades should by acquired via actual gameplay progression. The real issue is that "pause time" between command sensitive combos are a inherently flawed concept in spectacle fighters (also why mentioned Bayos sword and Punch Kick Punch/Punch Punch Kick LEGS LEGS/the simple weave combos are 90 times better than everything else). 4. 99% of big guys also have either secondary weapon (death grip most of the time) weakness. 5. Elemental effects depend on how much damage they do (fire dot interrupts mooks, frost further slows enemy strong attacks in addition to a small hit slow, lightning stuns big mooks while piercing on hammer murderskullfucks anything with armor with their alt names being upgraded/stronger secondary effect versions of the elements).

[@deathpyre42]

Great video. But, maybe the thing about skeleton telegraphing was just due to rushed visual assets? For example, all possessed weapons reuse assets from legendary weapons.

[@MisterHeadphones73]

Turbo Button I agree with many of your points, but there are a few flaws in your argument. If you stack your elemental damage type you could shock, burn, or freeze your target unless they're massive in size. Yes the camera focus is kinda let down when you get into large fights but I believe it was primarily meant for boss fights or fights where you focus on targeting a really large enemy (Example the Deposed King). As for the combo chaining, yes it can be a bit of a hassle but it is really feasible. You have to switch between using your scythes and your secondary weapon to get the most out of it. The parts of the combo you want to rotate between weapons is after you launch a spin move with your scythes, the heavy move, or towards the end of the combo with the weapon you have equipped. Health recovery is sorta slow so when you're in the thick of it disengage and backpedal/evade. To help with the issue stack your weapon with life steal which steals enemy health on hit with no delay for regaining hp. The increased telegraphing may help you notice enemy movements and improve your dogding but probably not by much as there's a mob of enemies. The primary means of inflicting damage is string combos with your weapon, do aoe moves to knockback/clear enemies, disengage to reacquire targets, repeat.

[@MisterHeadphones73]

Turbo Button Also, I can't seem to find your DS3 video that you spoke of in the video.

[@steve-u7j]

ill have you know there are at least 15 of us that are fans of darksiders

[@Vc215thecomicbookdude]

Ah-wait a minute-correct yourself Make that 16 Darksiders fans, I'm recently getting into the series Starting to download Darksiders 1 and 3, but sadly Darksiders 2 the deathinitive edition is on preorder on my ps5

[@jojobean3026]

Make that 17 IV been a fan of Darksiders 2 for years

[@Kenshito]

I absolutely adore Darksiders 2 and I also love how you pinpointed exactly the pain points with the combat, something I would just describe with "it feels off", now I understand what wasn't working out and it feels great having that information, thanks for this great analysis

[@stevevince9715]

While I enjoy the games, I'm not going to stick my head in the ground, and IGNORE all of it's problems. Great info and analysis. Will be checking out your other work. ;)

[@FatalFist]

Most sensible people acknowledge that the game in question isn't perfect. But you gotta be careful as to not focus on the bad and rule a game out entirely because of it. Transformers War for Cybertron was a guilty pleasure of mine despite how clunky and what not it was. Darksiders had similar cons but I think once you've grown accustomed to them, well... if DSP can beat it then it can't truly be that hard of a series of games. :P

[@PKDeviluke25]

You can disable the combat damage numbers.

[@TurboButton]

wwhhhhhaaaaaatt

[@LN.2233]

PKDeviluke25 I knew that too

[@theanonymous118]

also, Harvest (Harbringer side ability) will stagger ANY none-boss enemies, with some exceptions like the giant of bones and one or two exceptionnal enemies, but all minion and about 80 to 85% of heavy enemies will not be spared

[@johnanth]

When is the damage control coming Jonny boy? How are you going to get out of this one?

[@TurboButton]

If they're right they're right. As I said this aint really talked about on that DMC/Bayo level so this was all shit I'd noted down so there are one or two things I've missed. Still, considering some optional skill tree move is the only consistent stagger and I didn't notice the numbers thing having played through the game 2-and-a-bit times now I'll stand by my stance that it was poorly communicated at the least.

[@MariusUrucu]

Darksiders 2 may be the jack of all trades when it comes to its design, but it's also more than its sum of its parts. I love the world and story in Darksiders, I like the combat, flawed as it is (and the fact that you can play it like DMC, or more like an RPG for those who aren't good at high execution) and I love the dungeon design and Prince of Persia platforming. One thing to remember is that Darksiders isn't exactly an action game franchise, but a Zelda inspired franchise with a competent combat system.

[@miceatah9359]

thats the point ppl keep forgetting instead they compare every game thats not cod difficulty to shitty darksouls lol

[@FatalFist]

Being a Jack of All Trades (influenced by Zelda, God of War, etc) definitely worked in their favor here and I am all the more looking forward to seeing where Darksiders 3 takes us and what elements we may see return, added, or changed.

[@Clavitz1]

I'm hoping DS3 is more combat related as the platforming and puzzles were interesting in DS2, there were too many of them and several areas made looked as if they should have had combat in them. I'm bummed there will be no gear as the main issue with DS2 in that regard was how life steal scaled, crit damage's value and how easy it was to get more critical strike. Life steal is fine in games but it needs to be properly balanced. I think a cap on health returned would have been a step but that doesn't solve the damage bloat which dwarfed too many enemies.

[@antonioenrico]

i love the darksiders series. so glad part 3 is coming,

[@logiclunacy606]

Clavitz Rain I always found the puzzle element a huge part of the fun of Darlsiders, I personally wouldn't want to decrease the amount of puzzles. The Earth segments in 2 were the more boring parts of the game and had no puzzles which kinda shows this franchise wouldn't exactly be amazing without all of it's core elements.

[@TopSunbro]

Darksiders 2 is one of my favorite games ever, and everything you've said it's true, yet I always go back to it once a year, already played it like 5 times

[@vishishify]

yep, same, ive had 3 different computers since that game came out, and it has found its way onto all of them

[@OldyAlbert]

Fist one actually was also jack of all trades - it's zelda it's god of war it's a little DMC it's even a over-the-shoulder shooter. 2nd one just a jack of even more trades, but i think it's kinda the point of the series. They are less focused, yes, but also pretty varied.

[@CaptJackAubreyOfTheRoyalNavy]

In that way, Darksiders 1 may have been the last great B-game.

[@OldyAlbert]

Nah, not the last. Last one good B-game i played was The Surge

[@kevboard]

Ole Gerko the second one was too much tho ya. the loot and rpg elemts were too much... the first one was a Zelda clone with DMC esque fighting, all the other elements were really just small sections that don't really reflect the overall gameplay.

[@jarg8]

Ole Gerko Really good point. I think it all stems from the fact that Joe Mad, an incredible comic book artist, contributed largely to these games as he himself, has been a gamer all his life (He was notorious for missing deadlines on comic projects because he played so much video games but, lucky for him, he's an incredible artist). That's why you see these games fusing elements of Panzer Dragoon, God of War, Zelda, Prince of Persia, and loot based games. Joe's passion for videogames made these games heavily inspired experiences but, by taking from the best, the game becomes an entirely unique experience. I found the creativity, variety, and pacing of these games to be pretty excellent as a result. Though I guess it all comes down to preference and perspective.

[@swamdono]

Which is weird, I think. Because Dark Chronicle was revered, yet it has a bunch of different mechanics, too. A good few of them are even unrelated to the story.

[@Dr.GundeathPunchface-enstein]

Y'know what's funny? If anything, this video has made me love Darksiders 2 even more. I firmly believe that it's okay to enjoy something with flaws, and it's okay to admit those flaws. Is Darksiders 2 a perfect game? Absolutely not, furthest thing from it. But it's a game that I will adore until the day I die.

[@Mojavekight17]

Same

[@dstarr3]

Can we also talk about how the middle of the game is an unending slog? You have to go on three fetch quests for this dude, and each of those three fetch quests requires a further three fetch quests, and one of those sub-fetch-quests requires YET ANOTHER three fetch quests. Holy padding, Batman. Just awful.

[@TurboButton]

And then the whole point of that section was to just meet a guy you met at the start of the game.

[@dstarr3]

Oh my god, I forgot about that detail. God, this game could have been four hours shorter and been so much better for it.

[@xin0]

you can say that again Batman. seriously, that was one of the thing i hated about this game! you are playing a Death, who supposed to be dead badass, but rather you are a dog running errands!

[@Jabodie]

Dave Starr Honestly I never really put much thought into the story. Everything was basically just there to send you to the next dungeon. So I'm not even sure which quests refer to which here and I just beat the game.

[@FatalFist]

That's the downside to any RPG. If it was all linear and hack and slash with no exploring then you'd end up with a pretty bad side scroll-esque action title. Darksiders was never about that but they also try to give you a reason to go back as well as build up your character. The Horseman were always despised by the denizens of heaven, hell, and anything in between so of course Death is treated as a lackey.

[@mdk064hernandez9]

This has been my favorite game since it came out and this video addressed almost every notable bit where gameplay can get in your way. Nice work!

[@Myth_or_Mystery76]

I hate to say it, because I like the series, but Darksiders is: “Always the imitated, never the innovated.”

[@overlord6815]

All of your points are valid, but I must admit I never saw them as issues. Especially the part about having to cut your combos short and run away. Once I leveled up and got stronger, I rarely got hit in the middle of a combo. Especially whem 3 different combos end with Death doing a heavy attack. Just use a Mace or Spear that does long range damage to every enemy around you. As for the focus part, I never focus on one enemy unless it's one or two.

[@pecadorr93]

Yeah, you just are too encouraged to spam dodge-heavy attack combo or dodge-schythe throw, since its the most effective way. But yeah the combat is not all that bad.

[@Persegan]

As as game design student and someone who enjoyed Darksiders 2 quite a bit while not really having played that many action games, your video was super interesting, thank you very much for your work!

[@cruisemissile77]

What I learned from playing this game is never dodge straight forward or back. Always try to dodge to the side or diagonally forward to get behind enemies.

[@Sioolol]

Game has it's flaws, but it's still one of the best games i ever played. Especialy second one. Damn, this game feels like no other. For me it is because of the visual style. I still cant forget when i saw Eternal Throne for the first time with this giant undead wyrms... E P I C. And this tombs in the underworld, they are so well designed and damn butifuly grotesque.

[@StarboyXL9]

The entire first 20 minutes of gameplay in the Dead Kingdom is epic atmosphere incarnate imo.

[@brightsuperstition]

5:25. That's one thing I hate about God of War. If you want to get out some of your most powerful hits, you have to stand a couple of steps away from the enemy and start your combo from 10 feet away.

[@ThePreciseClimber]

God of War has one of the least fun combat systems I have ever played (at least from my experience). I had more fun with combat systems that are technically objectively worse (like in PoP The Sands of Time or even Soul Reaver).

[@brightsuperstition]

Another problem with God of War is that because all enemies (especially the bigger ones) have so much goddamn health, each of your hits from your standard dual blades feel so goddamn weak. The bigger enemies barely ever flinch. The only attacks in God of War that feel consistently powerful are the throws and grabs you can do. Otherwise, enemies take way too many hits to die.

[@scrustle]

I get where you're coming from with some of these criticisms, but I never found them much of a problem myself. Not locking on during fights with multiple enemies isn't so bad. You have lots of crowd control options, including special moves that can push away enemies around you so you can get them off your back to focus on just one. It does kind of suck that it limits your moveset without targeting, but I guess that's a trade-off of sorts. Having dodge offset in the game would be an interesting inclusion, but I don't think it's really necessary for the game. It's not so reliant on those combo-enders. Although again, your special skills can be used to pull out moves like that without having to go through a whole combo chain. Also when you talk about the elemental effects, they do actually do something. The game is pretty bad at explaining them, in that it doesn't explain them at all, but there are actually two different versions of each elemental damage, and each do something different. I haven't experimented with all of them, but I have noticed the difference between frost and ice. Frost just slows, while ice completely freezes enemies in place for a few seconds. I always try to build a decent ice build in the game. Also freezing enemies gets around the problem of not having a long enough opening to get combo-enders off, even if that's kind of a clumsy fix. I agree that the UI can get pretty chaotic though. I actually like that. Usually when things are going super crazy, it's because you're putting out so much damage that you basically don't need to worry about incoming attacks anyway. Personally I always turn off the damage numbers too. They're not necessary and just get in the way. Also taking a look at your notes, and somewhat related to the backpedalling criticism, there is also a better way to build for health regen. If you build towards a health on crit + crit chance build, you get quite a lot of health back from hitting enemies. Encourages you to be aggressive, and less reliant on potions. My builds always combine that with the ice attacks, and it makes for a really good build. Again, not really an elegant solution, but the problem can be worked around.

[@FatalFist]

While jarring at first, once you get the fundamentals down you kind of stop caring once you get some play time established too.

[@StarboyXL9]

I used that strategy you used for health, except I used for Reaper Energy on Crit. I was popping Reaper Form left and right in every boss battle, and mini-boss battle...hell I could even afford to use it against pleb mobs sometimes!

[@gamerprince-tl5hg]

Yeah none of this really bothered me too much either. its still a top-tier game and its good they copied from the best

[@RokushoTheRavager]

Holy crap dude this is an excellent video and I saw you pulling off some really sick combos. It's been a long time since I last played the game but I did get to the last world and I swear I don't remember to doing any insane combos like I saw you perform. That honestly kinda makes me want to jump back into it.

[@crocfire6782]

I'm one of the people that love this series and I'm happy to see someone take a critical look at it. I actually like the final boss however I wish they had make you fight a shadow version of yourself(Death) like they did with War in the first. Loved watching this video and keep up the great work!! Good luck with ur exams.

[@thef1rmament]

the nioh mention is very funny in retrospect considering that wo long ended up having the exact problem that darksiders 2 had with its camera being built for 1v1s, and being really bad at handling group fights.

[@Lugbzurg]

So, THIS is it. This really helped out. I've been trying to work out designing a similar game that involves DMC-like combat, shooting, platforming, and dungeons/puzzles, and there were a few things... "off" here in Darksiders II. I mostly chalked it up to the game feeling bloated with too much inconsequential gear and needlessly large and empty spaces, along with features missing from the first game, such as dashing while climbing, those "weapon mods", and that aerial spin attack War would do where he pretty much becomes a living buzzsaw. I love that move!

[@negx3933]

Eh idk, I actually played the shit out of DS2 and loved it.

[@ArbazKhan-xr9xt]

Aurodeep Kamal same but don't call it ds2 cuz most people will think of dark souls 2

[@PetarR560]

Instantly liked when I heard that Busta beat kick in, I was never expecting to hear that song in a gaming video. And besides that, awesome video and topic of discussion, you got yourself a new subscriber.

[@ijustworkhere1008]

For me, the game which nailed this kind of combat was Asura's wrath. You had manual targetting which didn't zoom in or keep you from being able to focus on other enemies, a very satisfying heavy attack with a well-balanced cooldown, and boss fights that rewarded skillful timing rather than just charging at an enemy. Also, some people say they find the combat too simplistic, but I think that worked in its favour

[@touchingisjustthefirststep]

You mean the game that has barely any combat and is just QTES and cutscenes? LUL

[@justcallmeKad]

This explains how I feel about the combat too

[@PrinceSilvermane]

You know what if weapons weren't just stat sticks but did more? Like you could get a sword that had the same moves, but with a different finisher or extra effect. Or another one that has slower animations but deal more damage. Or maybe one that forces you to commit to a combo but gives super armor. These wouldn't be full replacements for unique weapon sets like DMC, but would introduce some neat customization depending on what you want to play like.

[@choppitzchjopchjop9289]

the target cam was clearly meant for boss battles and 1 on 1 combat, not for regular enemies. You are meant to fight normal enemies without the target cam and it feels much better. This was apparent from the tutorial with the target cam being introduced with the first big 1 on 1 encounter not the first group of regular enemies.

[@aweso]

Really glad to get recommended this video because I just finished this game about a week ago and had a lot of these same thoughts. It's almost more frustrating to have this weird mix of a lot of really cool stuff that just missed on some details and so ends up feeling off, rather than if it was just across the board not great.

[@Crowliflower88]

Aw dude, I freakin love all the music you use in your videos.

[@fredxu99]

Great points. I felt the same way about this game when playing with a controller, and this is actually one of the few hack n' slash games that I recommend everyone play with a mouse and keyboard if on PC. It's much easier to sweep the camera mid-combo using a mouse in order to keep track of enemies around you.

[@Handbuilt1]

I loved everything about booth games, can not fault them, I think that the guys involved in making the games did a splendid job. I hope that N3 is just as good

[@Hynotama]

I completed the game several times on all difficulties and I didn’t find anything wrong with the combat. It’s fast, frantic and savage. I don’t like games that kick you in the balls to prove a point (ahem! Dork Souls) but you’ll find none of that here. Here you take control of the Reaper himself and the game does an exceptional job portraying this both by allowing you to be the executioner and by letting you get hit without dying which you cause to others, not the other way around.

[@MrKhaosKid]

At first I almost got defensive like "you better not talk crap about my game!" but As you started talking about the combat system I remembered how frustrating the camera was in those situations and then was in the video. The game is great visually. The art style of Joe mad, and the motion of the attacks and what not. But the gameplay overall is hard to deal with in some places. I definitely agree with you on many of your points here. I never got into God of War just because it looked too gritty and felt like it was about the gore more so than the cool characters. Very stoked to see what they do in Darksiders 3 and beyond.

[@GameBrainOfficial]

Absolutely phenomenal video! Hoping I can reach similar levels of quality in the future. Really admire the flow and fluency of the vid, looking forward to more in the future!

[@mr.x6313]

I am inclined to agree with your points, though I ultimately enjoy the combat. I think the point of Death is that you have to play smart: you can’t tank enemy damage. You have to sting and skirt away to plan your next move. It makes you think tactically about each combat scenario.

[@ClarenceDass]

I get you bro. Darksiders on paper has everything I want in games, but that's just it; it has everything in one game and it gets bogged down and, not really overwhelming, but no one part has me hooked. It's a game I want to like but just can't get into.

[@civilwarfare101]

I remember really loving this game when I first played it but my memory of it is really starting to fade. I'll probably try to replay both games at some point before the third one.

[@MrSage0011]

your videos are really good keep up the good work

[@annietmood]

Playing on KB+M for the entirety of the Darksiders series has proved beneficial for me when it comes to dealing with anything camera related (aside from the segments where the camera is locked and during horse riding); locking on to any enemy became completely obsolete and I get to aim my attack more freely with the speedy camera despite the WASD aiming.

[@WARLORD626]

The Soul reaver from Nightmare before Christmas game was out before Nero's Bringer.

[@Tyler-nr6kl]

Great video! been a huge fan of this game for a while and was suprised people were talking about it. I agreed with your points alot and it was very well put together

[@RahkshiMaster]

you say the lock-on doesn't mesh well with it's more God of War or Devil May Cry combat but, Devil May Cry has a very strict hard lock-on, god of war doesn't really have one at all, and Bayonetta has a soft lock-on at all times combined with the ability to choose to use a hard lock-on. 90% of DMC is spent locked on, because otherwise you can't use moves like helmsplitter or stinger, or dash towards the right target.

[@Juannee]

The thought of a new Turbo Button video is the thought I have while wetting my sheets.

[@FrankieTroll511]

I really love Darksiders series, despite its flows. I think in Darksiders 2 they focused more on combat, and that's a little bit sad. I mean, DS2 has a far better combat system than DS1, but i miss all those different gadgets War could use both in combat and while solving puzzles. All those gadgets packed the game with big variety, while il DS2 it comes to "does this hammer inflict more damage than then my spear? Yes? Swap!". DS1 was more focused on "get a bunch of weapons and use them as you like the most." I hope DS3 will get the best from both prequels, meaning great combat, great gadgets and great levels :D

[@trogalitious8987]

I couldn’t agree more, I can’t tell you how many times I lost all my health because an enemy attacked off screen.

[@danyleanza]

I am a game designer and found this video extremely helpful and clear. Thanks!

[@Trayanification]

I finished replaying Darksiders 2 yesterday and although I love the game, I totally agree with you. Another point - the overpowered Health Steal stat that appears after lvl20 or so, about the time you reach the zombies on Earth and their shitloads of unavoidable damage. I think they realized they messed up at that point and added it ingame, since around that time enemy number really ramps up, with a lot of super armor enemies (the ones in the last chapter especially) Edit: And stupid stalkers, that can chain their swipes at random, seemingly indefinitely, while you got only 3 dodges in a row...

[@StarboyXL9]

You're supposed to pick up a gun and blast them all dude. Plus you CAN actually do that entire quest line on any difficulty level without using a gun. It's hell (ironically, considering your on Earth) but it just takes skill and a solid build based on either damage or tanking (defensive stats + health steal)

[@bobbaseball]

there are no stalkers on earth....

[@luisoncpp]

8:58 I differ with you in that point, the stats of the weapons and the upgradeable skills really altered my strategy, that's how (I imagine that it can be a lot of outcomes): 1. With the teleported strike I can regain health and if I keep hitting after being teleported then I can get wrath a lot faster because of the upgrade of that skill. 2. I equipped fast weapons that gave me health or wrath for each critical hit. That 2 things in conjunction gave me enough motivation to do risky moves in order to get health back.

[@Csdabest89]

The game is fun but the combat point is legit. Just felt like it needs more polishing and combat testing especially for some of the later tree techs.

[@StarboyXL9]

I found the combat pretty rewarding for me. My strategy involved flicking back and forth between focused and not-focused. When an enemy is far away I don't lock on to them unless I'm about to teleport behind them, and when facing large mobs I don't focus at all, simply aim Death in a direction, attack, change direction/location, attack again, and repeat until I'm down to a few enemies I can kick around without getting stabbed in the back constantly. Mix in some skills to deal with enemies closing in around you (Harvest/Murder/Ghouls) and its back to business as usual. It may take some getting used to for some people but for me I took to the combat like a fish taking to water for the first time. It was the most intuitive combat system I've ever played with (and I've played games like GOW fyi). I still find it extremely comfortable, like an old Lazy Boy you've had for years. Perhaps the combat of Darksiders 2 was simply made for people like me? Also, you can laugh if you like, but the "pointless execution move" is literally one of the most important components in the most *powerful build in the game.* Without it the build would be significantly less effective and too luck-based to be as potent as it is. So yeah, not so pointless. You seem to have also missed that builds in this game are almost as important as combat skill. Just hitting enemies with your scythes and dodging their attacks works sure, but that's because no boss in the game actually has a decent chunk of hit points. The afore-mentioned "most powerful build" can literally one-shot mini-bosses and will move full bosses from one phase of the fight to the next with a single rotation. You reviewed the combat and yet somehow ended up missing an entire 50% of it: skill and item builds. In my experience, no level of difficulty on DS2 was enough to actually challenge me that much. I just had to learn to dodge like a gnat and sting like a bee. My builds and skills did the damage, regardless of whether I went Melee or Necro. And most of the time I was one-shotting light enemies in groups, one-shotting mini-bosses with proper set up, and crushing bosses like chumps, regardless of the difficulty. Because all that really happens when you turn up the difficulty is the damage numbers get bigger, not so much the HP, hence once you reach a certain level of skill with dodging, you can basically beat any difficulty with little trouble. Then again maybe you're more focused on the action rather than the logistics, which is fair so long as I'm allowed to be more focused on the logistics instead of the action.

[@KevinCow]

I think these are mostly reasonable points, but I do want to point out that Darksiders 2's combat fares a lot better when instead of comparing it directly to games designed almost entirely around their combat systems, you compare it to other games where combat is only one of several major pillars. Zelda's the obvious one to mention, but I'd also bring up the likes of Assassin's Creed, The Witcher, and others where elements like exploration, puzzles, platforming, stealth, and dialogue play as big a role in the game as the combat. It's like, as a random example, Captain America: Civil War probably has a crappy story compared to story-driven dramas like The Godfather, but its character-driven story looks a lot better when you compare it to other action-driven Hollywood blockbusters, especially in the superhero genre where the plot isn't usually much more complex than, "Likable hero saves the world from a forgettable villain who's going to somehow destroy everything with a giant laser shooting into the sky." That's not to say we should praise mediocrity just because it's better than garbage, but we should keep in mind the context and what's trying to be accomplished. I don't think Darksiders 2 was trying to have a combat system as deep as Bayonetta or something, just something that's fun and exciting and satisfying and works with the RPG and loot systems to make you feel stronger and stronger until you eventually feel like a massively overpowered badass, and I think they succeeded at that.

[@TurboButton]

That's a fair point, but I feel it's worth considering that Darksiders 2 focuses on combat a lot. Dungeons are generally less complex than Zelda, the parkour is mostly filler, and a lot of the challenges come from locking you in a room with a bunch of enemies. Considering how big a role it plays compared to the other aspects, and the obvious inspirations from other franchises (Vigil have admitted to being DMC/Bayo fans and the Gilded Arena is a Bloody Palace-style enemy wave challenge) I feel like the combat should be looked at to this extent.

[@MisterHeadphones73]

Turbo Button Agreed with further looking into the combat to polish the flaws, but mastering the combat isn't difficult. As for the dungeons not having the same level complexity as Zelda it's because again they were trying to balance combat with puzzles. The puzzles aren't an idiot can do it if you give them a controller but they also don't give you the hoozah after working it for several hours. For most gamers each dungeon would take maybe 20 minutes to get the works of the new mechanic introduced and then the dungeon becomes a breeze.

[@drunknmonk12]

I remember having problems with the combat but would always get flamed for pointing it out, thanks.

[@bennybeck]

Jack of all trades , master of none is exactly how I feel about this game. I still think it's cool though.

[@IfYouInsist]

Holy shit Pete Rock. Dynamite taste my man.

[@rodrigodelgado4454]

This is one of the best reviews I have ever seen. Congratulations

[@petaludas88]

I love when the doors that need key say :Locked

[@Etherwinter]

Will you do a video on the combat of FFXV? I feel like it needs one breaking it down, I suppose.

[@TurboButton]

Ooh maybe. Would be nice to take on something a bit different. Considering wrapping all these action game vids up in one mega-video eventually.

[@KA1N3R]

I think Witcher 3 vs FInal Fantasy XV would be a nice comparison.

[@TurboButton]

I'd like to but considering my very fleeting relationship with the genre I'm not sure I'm the most qualified to talk about them.

[@DJSlayer0791]

If you're considering FFXV, you should definitely look into Kingdom Hearts 2. The Final Mix version on the highest difficulty is a fantastic action game, and you even have the option to disable gaining experience so you're forced to rely entirely on your own skill to get through.

[@mariotaz]

DJSlayer0791 can honestly say that the level of depth that FFXV have is much more than Kingdom Hearts

[@GoldPhoenix99]

I really enjoy Darksiders, but yeah, I must agree with this. Playing through Darksiders 2 (again/for the first time --rage quit due to bugs when it first came out), and yeah, what you say is pretty true. Darksiders I had far crunchier mechanics and a much more cohesive vision, game style, and combat mechanics. My problem with Darksiders II wasn't that it wasn't ambitious or trying to do something new. My problem is that it wasn't polished (there's rumors that THQ made the devs publish before they were done, in a failed last ditch effort by THQ to save itself, I'm not sure if this is true). The combat mechanics have clear flow problems, it lacks a certain continuity with the first game, and I think that leaves the player with the feeling that it's trying to do too much. But if each element were more refined, and then they were put together in a careful way so they stacked, they could have probably done the amount they tried to do. But they didn't, and it shows. For example: 1.) You're right, the tight camera angles are a terrible idea if you're going to swarm the player. Firstly, swarming the player for these mechanics is flat out boring; you can't see shit around you, so you can't plan your attacks. This isn't like Arkham City where you can get some signaling that an enemy is going to attack and so you have some competent swarm/crowd control mechanics as long as you can react quickly. The whole screen is a goddamn mess, and the forced camera angles often cause absurd responses from the controls, particularly the handful of hard-cuts in the camera angle. This is as true when platforming as it is when you're fighting. 2.) I'm in a fight right now in temple where you grab the first dead king's henchman. I found out you don't need to do this, but all the same, there's a basement area where you can fight enemies to get loot. But the entire area is cramped (it's got fucking columns EVERYWHERE), and they summon two enemies who can block your attacks, have electric elementals, and the only way you can take them down (unless you predominantly use summoning) is to move around them. Which isn't possible. And there's two of them, so even if you could dodge one's attacks in the cramped space, the other one will charge you and deal absurd damage. And so I just stopped playing (I looked a walkthrough, which is how I found out I don't need to do it), but this is just another example of the game's shitty mechanics. So often, level design, the camera, the button layout, the timing mechanics, the HUD, the enemy attacks, and your attacks are in constant conflict with each other. 3.) The whole game is just an early access game that got released as a full feature game. Sure, the core content, level design, and story is 95% there but the engine and mechanics are literally late beta at best. There's so much that needed to be at best tweaked, but most often it needed to end up on the editing floor. I feel like if they had had another year in dev, this game would have come out very, very differently, and much better. Either that or they needed stronger, more cohesive design philosophy for the game. Again, this isn't a bad game, it's a fun game. It just what came out in 2012 (and again in the Deathinitive edition) was so much less good than what the game could have been if the dev team had agreed to a fundamental design principles from the outset, and then had another year to really sit down with what they had and fixed the glitchy-as-hell engine and really tightened up (and streamlined) the controls/game mechanics.

[@GoldPhoenix99]

The thing is, you could fight a crowd of enemies much more smoothly in Darksiders I than you can in Darksiders II. I can't say for sure why, but I think it's because even though the camera angles still weren't great in DS1, there's a bunch of shitty combat mechanics. To list a few: 1.) No finisher moves/no invincibility frames. In DS1 you could use a finisher on all enemies --in fact, I think this is a good mechanics that should have been kept. The thing that's important here is that this gave you about two seconds of invulnerability while you could clean out an enemy, but this allowed you to get footing for the next enemy or to dodge the next attack. This gives you a sort of combat tempo where you can breathe --you can't breathe in DS2. There's no tempo, it's just attack after attack after attack, and hope you've run far enough away so you can charge and attack, summon, or use a weapon special. Which none of those, outside of the charge attacks, are particularly fun. So this leaves the game without an internal logic, an internal fighting tempo. 2.) You have no real movement in DS2 that's conducive to crowd control. This is because in DS1, you can dash as much as you want (modulo a small lag time in between dashes), but DS2 has shorter lags between the dashes, but limit them to 3 dashes and then a BRUTALLY long cool down time before you can dash again. Long story short, you cann't move around crowds of enemies freely, so you keep on getting goddamn hit because you reach your 3 dashes VERY QUICKLY in the tight spaces that they seemed to demand be put into DS2. Even in larger spaces, all of the other combat mechanics (and often level design) force you into retreating, and then they limit your ability to retreat. The net result of that is frustration, not joy. 3.) There's no serious block mechanic. If you won't do a good dodge/dash mechanic, you won't do a flip-around-and-backslash (so you can hit multiple enemies quickly from the front and behind, i.e. give some means of crowd control), then the player really has no choice but to soak up damage by the fuck-tons, and then burn through potions (which are of limited supply at the store, because fuck you --again, conflicting design choices). But what might have worked was a legitimate, serious block mechanic (like what the first game had) that was decidedly central to the games combat mechanics. As near as I can tell, the block mechanic in DS2 either sucks or at least is never reinforced for the player. 4.) No one broadcasts there attacks (and even if they did, the screen is so goddamn cluttered),, therefore you can't dodge. This is stupid, as the video mentions, and fucks up a LOT of the game's combat mechanics. 5.) Fine, none of those; how about they get stunned? Sure, in DS2 enemies get stunned, but typically only half a second before blasting right back with their strongest attack. But in DS1, you could at least hit the enemy with a charged attack and regroup (LB + X). But in DS2 any kind of attack that mass stuns requires magic to use (e.g. Harvester), so you just can't even cleverly dodge an attack or two, apply a mass stun. But even if enemies were regularly stunned from an attack, it would make the many-enemies combat less clunky. 6.) Tight spaces OR small FOV, not both. This game seems to love open spaces and fucking ludicrously tiny spaces where you can't hope to fight. Again, this comes back to a cohesive vision, but you can EITHER have a tight combat space OR you can have a lot of enemies. You can't have both, at least not without changing the core mechanics of the game. If you don't want to change the mechanics, then you need to change the level design.

[@1993JoshG]

great video, saw a link on Joseph Anderson's Twitter and am glad I clicked it!

[@Z-A-C]

Great, now I’m not enjoying the combat that much anymore. I didn’t realize these problems before watching this. Now i feel like the first game plays better with the combat.

[@Soldiershak]

I noticed all of these issues within the first 2 hours of playing i had a feeling it didn't get better and i'm sad that that's the case, cool story, but pretty boring

[@TheFreeToaster]

I think most of this video is largely just off point. It's not particularly a Bayonetta type fighting system and gear does play a pretty big part in how combat plays out, as do skills. The combo system itself can be largely ignored, unless of course you want the higher combo's for some reason, but the combo system won't make or break leveling. That skill he complains about where he takes damage is basically the only attack you'll need or even be doing with the proper gear if you decide to go down that tree, even on the hardest of difficulties. Life steal/mana steal weapons will completely sustain you through repeated uses. He seems to have completely brushed off gear stats, which is strange because they can and do change how the game can be played. As for bonuses like freeze, with the right amounts you can instantly freeze and then shatter enemies, not just slow them. shock and burn work similarly with their respective effects. Even on the hardest difficulty, you shouldn't really be dying, I'm actually inclined to believe these constant deaths are attributed to him trying to play the game like it's similar to bayonetta when it's not. This seems like an incredibly shallow view of the combat based on how it looks compared to other games.

[@oh-not-the-bees7872]

I could not stand the amount of constant puzzles needed to progress through the game. I dont mind puzzles, like at all. But by hour 10 or so i felt like i had done the same 3 types of puzzle a million times and actually started hating the experience for the pacing alone.

[@FatalFist]

Darksiders as a whole is a Jack of All Trades. The entire IP is influenced by mainstream action titles and Darksiders 3 will be no different. Despite the negative connotations there, I still love the IP and once you get over the drawbacks (I've seen cons in gams that make the games unplayable, this doesn't happen with Darksiders 2) you can appreciate what such a beautiful universe they crafted here. So I'm hugely looking forward to Fury in Darksiders 3.

[@gamerprince-tl5hg]

Yeah that's kind of the identity of the franchise at this point lmao. Darksiders 1 was DMCxZelda and Darksiders 2 was DMCxBayoxZeldaxDiablo

[@TheTanmoy1990]

Late, and redundant comment is heavily redundant. ~~~~ 22 Apocalyptic runs, 7 Nightmare runs, and a single Deathinitive run later, I still have to agree with almost everything you've said about the combat. I've min-maxed everything, literally every sort of skill combination, used every sort of weapon class and tried every DPS type build imaginable, even a 92% Execution Chance Arcane Avenger build with the Abyssal set and 2 Possessed weapons. The combat is all over the place, even though they nailed the ARPG aspect right on the head. The only place where we seem to disagree is with the need for the Execution system, which is an actual stat in the second game. And while it isn't an optimal stat to build around, it's insanely hilarious when after you've pulled off a max range Teleport Slash into Harvester Spin, you immediately open up the entire tile-set to execution prompts :3

[@MarwanAbdElghany]

Oh god i forget how much I loved Darksiders 2 when it came i think I will replay it again

[@TyroneD]

Dude, you are the man!! Exactly everything I am thinking about the combat system, you said. Thank you for this. Let's hope Darksiders 3 is way upgraded. I still want to know what the TWO extra abilities are for. We've got: Dust - Despair - Blackroot thingy.

[@evansusmc]

Man… I am playing this game now and it’s awesome. No complaints.

[@minervacantdie7110]

Wow, who would thought that a game series that never aspired to be anything like Nioh/DMC/Bayonetta, wouldn't play like those games?

[@tomstonemale]

people telling you Darksiders combat is good, maybe? I like the game but I would never recommend it for the combat

[@alexradice8163]

He literally showed how they Darksiders took inspiration from tgose game

[@adomasnarbutas9008]

I really liked the RPG elements in D2 - the skill tree and gear was particularly awesome and unique. It is really sad this is not the case in D3, as far as I see.

[@Paur]

How nice that the tracking issue you mentioned carried over into the new installment of the game in which you can die from 2 or 3 hits.

[@raycocker639]

Just got both games on sale. This vid hyped me. Can't wait to play it, looks "hella" good

[@MCI-ReactGaming]

great video. u brought up a lot of good points that are... hard to out in words lol. the devs should watch this to improve the combat in their 3rd installment. good job

[@MJonMBoviM]

Would live to see you analyze the dishwasher series. The combat in those games was so intense

[@fangsabre]

I don't usually use the targeting system outside the larger enemies. But I do honestly love this game

[@flamesbaldwin108]

Nice analysis. Even better choice in music.

[@ScorpyX]

Good video - thank you for analyze of combat system

[@cruelcumber5317]

I also felt the game's combat was horrendously balanced. I found charged hammer to just be insanely powerful for a large portion of the game. The first weapon I picked up in the game was a hammer and I didn't replace it until after the second dungeon because that one move made it competitive.

[@KrunemGrimcleaver]

I noticed around half way through when I used my abilities more often in combat it actually felt really well to play, even with the tight camera, but if you never really use them you're not gonna have a good time

[@faheemsaiyed8094]

I agree with everything you said and yet I still love it more than the first one.

[@AzraelCcs]

BEST. PATREON. SEGWAY. EVER!

[@AndrewMaksym]

I like this video even more cause I hear "Windmill, windmill for the land Turn forever hand in hand Take it all in on your stride"

[@henplay7399]

I have no idea who you are but good video you gained a new sub keep it up man

[@Shredder9623]

bro the focus system i agree with you , but no way this is bad as you make it seem, fast combat is really enjoyable. with great characters , soundtracks, maps, plot this is a really good game for me.. best darksiders game of the series too

[@IamFatcat.]

In Darksiders 1 and 2 the... I'll tell you Z-targeting. The game does not hide its obvious inspirations in Zelda, not even in combat. However, that mechanics was not made for several enemies and it shows a lot. In the fights of few enemies and bosses it works well, but with several enemies it is not convenient to use it, adding that there are enemies who do not telegraph their attacks. I hope that Darksiders III improves that. In the last one-minute gameplay no longer fight against hordes like in GoW and the enemies finally telegraph their attacks.

[@mariotaz]

You should watch a combo music video since I found the points in this video pretty off and honestly very inaccurate. Ninja Gaiden and Metal Gear Rising have a camera angle similar to Darksiders too. We can even go into other games such as Ultima: Gate of Memories, Mitsurugi HK and more.

[@STEFiRoTH]

Only thing conflicted here is your argument. Doesn't like damage numbers, doesn't turn them off. Doesn't like the targeting system says its better for 1v1 engagements, uses it in groups. Says the game needs really strong enemy telegraphing, show multiple clips in a row with enemies that with really large telegraphs and shows enemies then proceeds to say not all enemies telegraph with super armor then shows a bunch of mook skeletons without super armor moves not using super armor abilities. "SKATES ACROSS THE RINK WITH NO SUCH SIGNAL" as a skeleton walks up slowly and winds up for a full second to attack at a reasonable range. Timed release combos and delayed inputs combos are not WICKED WEAVES just because they both have a flashy animation doesn't make them the same. You can continue your combo against ESPECIALLY against large enemies with slow predictable super armor moves by NEUTRAL DODGE PARRYING a core piece of the combat you never mention I'm assuming for the same reason you didn't know you could turn off damage numbers. "The Stalker enemies are particularly badly telegraphed, with powerful moves having little windup" quite possibly the most telegraphed attacks in the game 90% of the time it B-Lines at you from across the map and always jumps and slams at the same distance. Can be easily dodge by dodging, neutral parrying a little harder or teleport slashing through I am pretty sure this is the enemy the devs want you to learn to teleport slash early as the small amount of I-frames happen while you are teleporting not while you are in startup frames, the end lag frames could be more lenient but what more do want from an ability that deals damage, heals you, applies the best status effect in the game, gets you out corners and can be used you get behind enemies with slow attacks (See Deposed King at low level videos). "Pointless execution move from Darksiders 1" that would be the GRAB button, calling executions in DS1 pointless is like calling glory kills in Doom pointless. They grant the following bonuses, BONUS HEALTH, EVEN MORE HEALTH WHILE YOU ARE WEAK, MORE WRATH, MORE SOULS, HUMONGOUS AMOUNTS OF I-FRAMES. Not to mention all the picking up objects, throwing objects, catching objects thrown at you, riding on enemies backs and the fact that God of War also had this pointless button. The skill trees and abilities absolutely change your playstyle and are not just damage. Sure it has some upgrades that improve the damage of an ability but right from the get-go you 2 abilities that offer completely different playstyles Teleport Slash gets you into the action and helps you stay in combat and Ghouls provide CC, help keep enemies at a distance while you regain wrath shooting (Your playstyle) taunt enemies, and like you mention offer a lot more air combo potential and those are just the first 2 abilities. Says elements are just damage shows fire dealing damage, then OP AF shock chain CCing fodder enemies then shows enemy walking in slow motion with frost all these effects can be applied at will using that talent tree system and have uses against different enemies. Says you have to watch cutscenes then shows the same cutscene being skipped (there are 2 instances of unskippable cutscenes that are about 6 and 10 seconds respectively which is annoying) then makes a joke about "an hour long 3rd person shooter sequence" that you DO NOT have to participate in if you do not want to. That whole area can be completed easily without every picking up the gun weapon, in most cases faster if you can handle not dying to fodder zombies and bloaters. This is called pacing. Game devs put fun little interludes so that their games don't become a series of combat arenas and cutscenes like Bayonetta. "Alotta the time you'll be back pedaling getting in a few smacks here and there." The only time this is optimal is when you need to refill your wrath a bit or if you are a full endgame Necromancer build stacking Arcane so that your summons can deal good damage. Otherwise this is the slowest most painful way to play the game, you absolutely can stay in the fight for long periods of time with the tools the game gives you in most cases even on the hardest difficulty in new game plus you can absolutely stomp enemies with even mediocre play. I don't mean to be harsh but listen I know you beat the game cuz you mentioned "Why is the final boss SO shit?" but it would really help your case if you didn't pretty much only show gameplay from the first areas of the game and the earliest stages of the Crucible then slap a bunch of examples that go directly against what you are saying. It makes your whole argument seem thrown together like you just played the first few hours then overanalyzed and understood little like an Under the Mayo butthurt "THIS ISN'T LIKE GOD OF WAR" review. Sorry I know this comment is 5 years late but your review of the game was also 5 years late on the inferior version (explains yo crashing problem), so I'd say we are even.

[@aransmeallie5344]

Despite all of that, watching the gameplay makes me want to pick the game up again 0_0

[@mahmudurrashid423]

Dodge,hit,dodge,combo. Btw i loved everything about this game

[@xdavier31]

One of my favorite video game essays, even after 2 years I love to come back and watch this video every once in a while

[@VictorKaiser]

Interesting angle. I admit I didn't have as many gripes, but I can see what you're talking about. I absolutely loved the fighting system overall. I will though agree that the camera can be a little too tight in group fights, even when not locked on. And the lunging enemies did take time to get used to.

[@LMAOSHIFDTSADMT]

why is your logo a dpad when you dont need turbo functionality on those

[@OzPayn]

I designed it to be both the Dpad and face buttons of a controller, being the "button" part of the title. So the logo is speed arrows and face buttons, turbo+button.

[@LMAOSHIFDTSADMT]

I didn't really expect an answer, let alone from the designer, thanks!

[@dedicateddark]

Although the game has a *lot* of problems, darksiders 2 is still fun to play and I think the only western game where the attacks and movement feels more otp(as you mentioned), most western games go for the fleshy crunch and grounded feel. I still think some of the systems work, while the dodge breaks after 3 times might feel like a useless feature it encourages aggressive play and it therefore makes the fights more fun. Yes, the player can opt to use the alternate boring options like shooting; but that's true for many games. As for the lock on, while I agree it's rubbish it's not too hard to play the game without it, and you can always lock on temporarily when you want to use those directional input based moves. I agree with most of what you say, but whatever they put in doesn't completely become redundant, somethings actually managed to work w.. .. .ell.... .somewhat together. This is kind of like making excuses but even though it's such a messy game, I still find it much more fun than the Ninja Theory DmC. I am not entirely sure why. Might be because it has a lot of systems I am already familiar with and therefore am able to use the systems in weird ways. It's an inconsistent game, but it's a fun inconsistent game. And I think the RPG systems help make the game more varied, the elemental effects and such do -do somethings. I think where as an action game it fails, it does well as an arpg; and where as an arpg it fails, it does well as an action game. Anyway, as for DS3 I think the lead designer and combat designer is no longer in the newly formed Gunfire. And based on what I saw of DS3 .. .well.. . .I feel like the certain death quote from DMC4 fits my feeling.

[@jman2856]

Pre-alpha gameplay, just to let you know.

[@CallForGrandPappy]

Ninja theory dmc is better than the mainline games.

[@dedicateddark]

@@CallForGrandPappy lol

[@omg241]

Actually there is specific gear that can change the way you can play, for example there is a full set that increase the mana pool and mana steal, so you can play like a mage, summoning crows that heals you, zombies that explodes, and the dps shield. In my first playthrough i use the left skill tree and was ok, but the right skill tree is better.

[@Chiefahleaf]

Man it's been a long time since I played the series, I gotta give it another go

[@IndianTelephone]

I get that lock on doesnt work when there are hordes of enemies, but I never locked on when there are hordes or just creeps. I only locked on to minibosses, or when I instantly wanted Death to face towards the enemy. The no lock on freedom of movement is amazingly satisfyinG!

[@sinfulhealer2110]

best review of DS2 yet

[@slvrcobra1337]

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like this. I was super enjoying this game for like the first two hours, the general combat and jumping/traversal are fun, but I don't think the beautiful yet empty open world RPG thing was necessary. I think the game would've benefitted from being more linear and focused on its badass balls-to-the-wall combat with small open sections in-between.

[@crozraven]

Yeah I am struggling with the "target focus" camera with this game. Nioh, Dragon' Dogma, & Witcher 3 did the camera in action mode much better.