The CONFUSING HISTORY of NOCTURNA

[@MAMoreno]

Now that Jason Todd is all grown up, maybe it's time for Nocturna to make good on those "If you weren't twelve, I'd totally date you" comments that she used to make in the 80s. Yeah, Nocturna was a pretty creepy character, looking back.

[@maxalaintwo3578]

Yeesh. *FBI I think I have something for you*

[@MrSafior]

Nocturna: Ara ara, Jason-kun. Sorry.

[@bloodycoffee9293]

Goddammit 1980s

[@DIEGhostfish]

...I need an adult. I AM THE NIGHT.--I mean an adult!--

[@GamerSlyRatchet1]

She’s currently dating Match, who is Superboy’s clone. Does that count?

[@artemiswolf4508]

“Dan DiDio believed superheroes couldn’t have happy personal lives because it made them hard to relate to” Is...is he okay?... Somebody should check up on him.

[@CasuallyComics]

He also said that a wedding story felt like the "last story" and they never wanted to tell the "last story." As someone who has been married 5 years now it is most definitely not the last story lmao.

[@MAMoreno]

You can tell when DiDio gained power at DC. It wasn't long afterward that we got Identity Crisis, the story that destroyed the happiest and most functional married couple in the DC universe.

[@joshuagarcia9538]

That's Dan Didio for ya, He doesn't like characters being married and also hates legacy characters

[@Noname-ut1ye]

@@joshuagarcia9538 He looks like a humanoid thumb. I'd be angry too.

[@Nah_joey]

Joshua Garcia especially hates Dick Grayson

[@Casselismyname]

I think her not actually being a vampire, but using her light sensitivity and natural allure to play up that "thing of the night" stick would be interesting. She's definitely a character that could be be interesting, but seems to fall flat.

[@alejandroguevara2212]

Caliban? “ beware of the light”

[@stonekidman2306]

I think it's crazy that there's so much sexual assault in DC comics that it has its own wiki page!

[@kyleellis9177]

well considering something like 45% of people will experiance it in their life im suprised DC has so little.

[@timross5351]

Love the general vibe of Nocturna; seems like a concept that just needs a good arc written by Dini to gel. I like the idea of a femme fatale manipulator who has other people do her bidding while she remains nominally "innocent" and thus untouchable by the Bat Family. I would want to marry the 'vampire due to Wayne Enterprises' origin and make her something of a "Mister Freeze, but with darkness instead of cold" sort of tragic character constantly seeking a cure. Maybe even involve Man-Bat somehow. I'd keep the hyped up pheremones as well as a pseudo-super power, and even keep the blood drinking as part of the result of her condition.

[@DIEGhostfish]

I was for some reaon thinking some sorta "Moonlight energy" thing.

[@seanewing204]

The "dark love interest" angle is done to death. Poison Ivy had the "questionably supernatural seductress" thing for about a decade before Nocturna. Catwoman combines the "night thief" and "loves jewelry/wealth" and "confusing multiple origins including one where she used to be rich" angles. Honestly, I'd like to see her as a Bruce Wayne enemy. Take the Jason court case concept and have her be an all-out opposing force, vying for the hearts of Gotham and working to grow its darker elements. Keep the complicated relationship, but turn her into the worst of Gotham's high society, alongside Hush and Black Mask. Maybe connect her to Richard Rallstone/The Mad Monk? I'd also keep her condition tied to the Wayne name: Wayne Enterprises refused to pay for the surgery to cure her, Thomas Wayne failed to prevent her condition from spreading when she was a child, you get the idea. Nocturna feels 80% of the way there, just not sure where the last 20 would come from.

[@Calzaki]

New 52 Batman... 10 years and 4 Robins, one of whom is his son who was conceived while he was Batman but is somehow at least 12 years old

[@koust6032]

Never made any sense to me also i chose to ignore it

[@bebecranney8740]

i feel like theirs an idea to this character that they still haven't cracked

[@CasuallyComics]

Same here, like there are elements I really like that just never seem to fully come together.

[@mohammadbahrami9859]

@@CasuallyComics theirs*

[@JoeEnglandShow]

I would've liked to have seen the original Nocturna suffer a fate like that guy from the "Terrible Trio" episode of the animated series. She was so pretentious and addicted to luxury, her ultimate defeat would surely be a mundane prison sentence, devoid of romance or indulgence. I can imagine the maddening horror in her eyes as she's forced into a hair net for kitchen duty.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Not even in Arkham with the mystery and horror and interesting fellow prisoners.

[@Luanna801]

Making Nocturna an actual vampire seems unnecessary when there already was a vampire villainess in Batman canon - arguably his first female villain, in fact! That would be Dala, who first showed up in Detective Comics #32 (1939) and has popped up very occasionally since then. (And would be a fascinating character for a quick retrospective, if you were ever interested!) If you want Batman to have a vampire villainess, it would make total sense to dust off her character and try doing something new and interesting with her, rather than changing Nocturna into one. (Also, I have to admit, the idea of Dala dismissing Nocturna as a wannabe with a smirk is PRICELESS. Think of the ways you could play their characters off each other!)

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

Actually I like her pre-new 52 origin it's less complicated and does a better job at making her sympathetic.

[@danieldishon688]

I think as a Batman street level family antagonist, she worked better as not a vampire, but just being vampire like. Just single traits that complemented her evil aristocrat lifestyle without making her into a full on blood feasting embodiment of fear of the undead that comes with full vampire lore. I wish Tim Drake would go back to being Red Robin, the extension of the Bat family that followed the network of Gothams crimes overseas and thus had had an international focus.

[@shiningstar6659]

Love what you said about allowing stories to be completely told.

[@kingdomcomesuperman3669]

Love Tim Drake, he was my favourite Robin and his Red Robin run was great

[@josephadorno92]

When Doug Moench creates a Batman villain, that villain is going to have the weirdest origin...

[@XainMexi]

I love the not so subtle hunger for and anger about not having enough information on Nocturna's current situation!

[@ronanoconnor3392]

Hi Sasha! I just wanted to send a small something for all the amazing content! I’ve been a fan since some of your earlier content with Top 10 Nerd and I’ve probably gone through your entire channel at this point: TL;DR thank you for your amazing wit and commitment to comics!

[@cuevagrafica]

5:56 and then we have the batman/Drácula elseworlds trilogy too

[@Darkgreenfangirl]

My feelings about this character are really mixed, as soemone who finally read her comic apperances. Despite that I really do enjoy your videos about characters that need more eyes, it intros me to more comics and that is never a bad thing

[@scribescholar]

Ok so....elegant night crimes in a hot air balloon with your lover step son? DC missed out on a sic late night cable series. What is this scandal? Lol Real housewives of Gotham? "Shes killin em" lol

[@d1p]

I liked Nocturna in the Tim Drake comics. It was like someone took Batman's opinion of Stephanie as a crime fighter and personified it. Batman, the Birds of Prey, and even Tim Drake and Cassandra Cain treated Stephanie like an unwanted complication in their crime fighting. Everyone treated her as something to defend rather than as an ally. They considered her as a kind of chaos magnet that made situations worse simply by being there. And then there's Nocturna who is literally a generator of chaos and drama, who's always in danger because of her passive influence on people. I feel like the two could have made a good contrast and showed Stephanie as reasonable and determined, while Nocturna was was dramatic and flippant. (Plus, what happens if that friendship turned Nocturna good? What would a hero with a drama aura be able to do?)

[@richardsoder2730]

I do not know if you're going to read this, but. I am from the future. She does show up in episode 8. New Amazon Batman series.

[@valeyard951]

Look at her. She's poised. She's knowledgeable. She gets Comics. GIVE THIS COMIC ALREADY! LET HER WRITE! LET HER WRIIIIIIIIIITE!

[@mattphillips3537]

So Batman and Batwoman share an ex-girlfriend and Superman and Supergirl share a stalker.

[@skynightokc2811]

In the pre crisis era, the comics code still existed preventing "mainstream" comic from depicting vampires wtc. No doubt this was close as DC could get to vampire character without crossing the line.

[@RunnerX13]

That “ban” ended in the early 70s, more than a decade before Nocturna, otherwise there’d be no Blade or Dracula in Marvel.

[@Shamazya]

I like the Batman TAS design! And screw Dan Didio's mandate.

[@millernumber1]

Thumbs up for Stephanie Brown! And Tim Drake! And also really thoughtful discussions about bad Batwoman stories!

[@nathanielstacy4488]

Fox while doing the 2008ish Batman animated series had Dracula feature against Batman . Dracula even turned Seies regular Bill and Penguine & Joker into Vampires.

[@spock686]

I recently discovered this channel & it's now my favorite thing on youtube.

[@VerneditheSnail]

Dan DiDio taking charge after Geoff Johns moved to the TV/movie department at Warner was the true culprit behind Doomsday Clock delays. You can even tell rewrites and art changes happened between #10-12 of Doomsday Clock. Such as Alfred being alive despite Doomsday Clock being set after Tom King's run. Batman's suit being his pre-Flashpoint suit instead of the one he is wearing now. Saturn Girl's role being drastically reduced and her being unceremoniously killed off by Ozymandias, etc. Lots of inconsistencies in those last issues, most likely mandated by DiDio. DiDio would go on to hire Bendis and all in all nearly turn Doomsday Clock into an out of continuity Elseworlds. Gary Frank used to illustrate books in a monthly capacity years back, he is not that slow and does not deserve to be the scapegoat for DiDio's vengeance and massacre of post-Rebirth legacy characters.

[@dfcsons]

I remember Nocturna and Night Stalker as antagonists in the 80s DC Heroes role playing game. Bad ass.

[@brettpugh7898]

I love Vampires in comics! Have you ever read or researched Vampirella?

[@shaynemaskall6984]

I looked up Vampirella, she's a creepy cute lady.

[@VanVeniVidiVici]

That moment when you realize Tom King Dan Didioed Batman and Catwoman's wedding.

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

Do you think you can make a video talking about the rise and fall of the New 52 and just a little bit of the introduction of DC rebirth

[@TheRealReVeLaTioN]

Love the red backgrounds!

[@SuperEasywalker]

Ironically the show Batman: The Brave and The Bold did an episode in which Batman was “turned” into a vampire by the villain Dala not Nocturna though. (Shadow of the Bat!)

[@Psycopathicus]

I think keeping Nocturna at least semi-sympathetic works a lot better for her character than just making her flat-out evil. Her original treatment was... weird, to say the least, but it was at least distinctive, and the Batman series has always thrived on those characters who shift back and forth between villains and supporting characters.

[@johnburt7935]

I still wish she had successfully adopted Jason Todd. She could then have dangled Jason over Bruce's head indefinitely, tormenting him while he wrestled with whether to try to reconcile himself to cutting Jason out of his life, or negotiating some kind of arrangement with Nocturna (without simply surrendering to her, which he wouldn't do). That would have been a more interesting use of both her and Jason than anything any writer has done with either character since. Jason could have grown up to be a much more interesting Red Robin or Red Hood or Flying Fox or whomever.

[@whammett]

man i wish they just used her original traits and story :/

[@cyclopsboxhead5318]

Cousin solidarity is having your wedding not work out because of editorial staff.

[@timothyjacksondrake4454]

This is where I come for my obscure character fix and am rarely disappointed.

[@yenu4683]

It's a shame we never got the Batman episode with Nocturna.

[@jim-bob3093]

I cant stand really anything save the pre crisis stuff. Im so keen for Her to come back as Natasha and be Jasons overly dramatic mum that can backhand Bruce and be a permanent support for her son that wont rip away support systems at the drop of a hat

[@TrejoDuneSea]

How weird that I'd completely forgotten about Nocturna. I mainly remember her from the pre-Crisis Batman comics, back when I was probably too young to fully understand what was going on (not that I would've admitted it). She completely flew under my radar since I didn't get into the Robin series, and dropped Batwoman after that editorial meddling.

[@vrownvegan3187]

Love your Batman voice! :)

[@timsmalley7432]

Goth villian femme fatal for life. #gothlife

[@mohammadbahrami9859]

new fan . binging the videos. becoming a comic book fan

[@vereen70]

Lady, how do you know so much about the details of these old school events? You recall stuff that I’ve forgotten years ago.

[@t_mcb_1342]

you are really great at this... you are knowledgeable... entertaining... and beautiful... please keep doing what you do...

[@recursivecoin359]

Loving these discussions about confusing histories. I'm an old school Marvel fan. Why does Marvel do a better job avoiding this problem? Is it because they just ignore dumb stuff instead of trying to retcon it? Or is it because I've followed Marvel for so long I'm inoculated?

[@lolytagunol7112]

This character has so much potential but for some reason she just seems unoriginal they keep making her a mix of catwoman,Talia and poison ivy.. I wish they would work in this character more :(

[@UntitledShowwithBobandPat]

I can’t relate to most super heroes, because I don’t have superpowers. OH Why can’t they make more relatable hero that spent most their free time watching KZbin videos!!!!!!?!

[@kyleellis9177]

or money. how an anyone say ironman/batman/green arrow characters are relatable. or any of the super genius im14 and one of the five smartest people on earth characters.

[@Hum0ng0us]

I've only got a few Don Newton art comics from Pre-Crisis. Otherwise, I'm learning all about her here.

[@wavemaster4891]

Dr. Manhattan was the true cause of the new 52 and the current DC Metal event continues this arc.

[@freman007]

I can see her as a rather vampy pseudo-vampire, much like Marvel's Selene.

[@jovonydelvinwoodyalveres4908]

Miss this channel so much 😭

[@CDB0891]

I liked her pre-52 version. I have some of those Robin comics. I didn't realize that was her.

[@johnfosteriii5792]

You spoke of the names Natalia & Natasha. In Russian, these are interchangeable as is John & Jack. So that would not be a big deal.

[@VerneditheSnail]

I prefer Pre-Crisis Nocturna, she had mystique and left you wanting to find out more about what her deal was and why she wanted to be Jason's mom so badly. Hell, I prefer the Pre-Crisis continuity. I am also a fan of Pre-Crisis Jason Todd and Helena Wayne, so that seals my bias. Post-Crisis continuity has been one disappointment after another for me.

[@LeighMet]

Batman TAS were going to do an episode of her but the censors said bloodletting a nono

[@chrisanderson2204]

But yet Spiderman TAS got around the no vampire rule with Morbius

[@8mad]

I was honestly more familiar with her as a vampire, had no idea about pre-vampire. And personally, I can get being both, though I LOVE her OG look, very classically stunning. Also, I kind of like the the idea of her being a Jason Todd antagonist and character. Though, if we are sticking to vampire Nocturna, part of me prefers her being a Batwoman villain, when Batwoman fought the supernatural.

[@bacsilva]

Watching this at the end of 2021 feels like she's been slowed down

[@cannoneer155mm]

Can't help but to think of the character "Poison Ivy". Pheromones and all.

[@Charolette21]

So....Dan called off a major same-sex marriage because superheroes should be in a stable, happy relationship? Those writers were right to quit After it was canceled.

[@CasuallyComics]

Oh everybody got broken up that year, Clark and Lois, Barry and Iris lol he was on a marriage ending spree. He's the real life Mephisto he wants your marriage lol

[@Charolette21]

@@CasuallyComics Is he still the editor?

[@CasuallyComics]

He actually quit earlier this year a little before all the Covid stuff. Rumour has it it had something to do with 5G but that's just a rumour (so far dun dun dun lol)

[@Charolette21]

@@CasuallyComics The set up comics run from Doomsday Clock's ending? That's some serious planning then.

[@f12mnb]

"Damien mania" - that was a thing.

[@zaraandrews600]

The Drake I think it a cute superhero name for Tim, except for the issue it has his name in.

[@michaellangwaller]

It seems like Nocturna, like a lot of DC villains, they have an idea but do not take the time to flesh them out before putting pen to page. You don't have to create an entire history before you introduce the character, but some as to the feel of the character. And why change so completely when you change the universe? They turned Nocturna into a completely different character. I wonder if DC was close to losing the character and just three something together to keep the copyright.

[@prince_nocturne]

Or maybe... she comes back as a 30-something gamer who has a not-very-popular Twitch channel and a massive obsession with coffee! ...just saying. (Side note: the name is a coincidence. I had no idea who Nocturna was until Sasha explained her)

[@doyscherr]

Tim Drake's current super-hero name is Drake. This will remain as long as Brian Michael Bendis remains relevant at DC.

[@michaelcarter9395]

I get her confused with Natalia... Al Guhl..

[@HandofOmega]

Reminds me of Gypsy Moth...Do a video on Gypsy Moth!

[@valasafantastic1055]

I prefer literal vampire because it just fits too well. And really vampires were to edgy for the 90's batman? interesting video thanks.

[@willowsousa7142]

Have you done a show on marvels white rabbit? I would love to see that . I love the way you do history of the character s keep it up and I hadnt heard of nocturna be fore this I think she should be rebooted or something like that. Id read her.

[@Omegaroth666]

Do you think she wasn't made a legit vampire vampire originally because of the Comic Code?

[@CasuallyComics]

I don't think so cause the Supernatural creatures ban was lifted in the early 70s, then you get Dracula, Morbius, Werewolf By Night a whole bunch of characters. I'm not sure what's going on with Nocturna. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be allegorical, a lot about Nocturna doesn't full coalesce tho. The building blocks are there, but how to assemble them? lol

[@Omegaroth666]

@@CasuallyComics Great answer 😊 What video games do you play, if any?

[@CasuallyComics]

Lol do you even game bro jk. I play when I can big fan of Persona 5. Currently playing the FF VII remake when I have the time, which is never.

[@Omegaroth666]

@@CasuallyComics yeah, time is hard. You're doing awesome, though. 😉

[@nataliapanfichi9933]

Good video.

[@andreworders7305]

With her backstory, she’s like an anti-Robin, probably intentionally.

[@crow5401]

Her new last name Mitternacht means midnight in German, a reference to her previous last name Knight I'm assuming

[@dannytarver4533]

I think the effects of Nth metal and the no underwear on the outside was the best things of the New52,it was ok😎

[@ikecarr5989]

And Geoff Johns run on AQUAMAN.

[@MRWHO-gt8zo]

So they lit slide when Talia rape Bruce, but are angry that Nocturna rape Kate. What a load of hypocrisy

[@andreworders7305]

Why didn’t you go into more detail about the rest of her pre-New52 appearances?

[@NightHawke]

Way late, I know, but it's a very soft "ch" in "mitternacht," more like breathing out instead of hitting the hard "ch" sound in "chrome." "Mitter-nahkt" if that helps any. One of the few gentle sounds in German! Meh, vampires are overdone. They can still be done well, but Anne Rice literally wrote the book on the whole homosexual vampire lust thing, so that needs to be taken off the fire for a while. I prefer her whole Elvira-esque "Mistress of the Dark" aesthetic, but ironically they de-mystified a character whose allure kinda relies on mystery even as they introduced her. Nice idea for a character associated with the Bat-Family, but as yet not carried off as well as it could be.

[@nc0gaming89]

I love your videos

[@timsmalley7432]

Robin Rogues Gallery

[@wavemaster4891]

Tim Drake is the best Robin.

[@infinityalbi9840]

Why not just call her Natasha Nyx? Named after the Greek goddess of the night...

[@ZephyrBW]

That’s interesting to know got to say the new 52 wasn’t all that great

[@toddnolastname4485]

Maggie Sawyer? She's a Superman supporting character; she belongs in Metropolis, not Gotham. Unless Gotham and Metropolis are the same city. The city also known as the Big Apple. Or New York City. Like they always were. I prefer either the dead or non-existing version of Nocturna.

[@joshuagarcia9538]

This Confusing History of Nocturna is interesting.

[@buckybarz3779]

Love the channel. Plus I made it to top 5 comments finally! Ha ! Win! 😂😎 also, I wanted to point out you and I have the same scarbrow . That’s awesome.

[@CasuallyComics]

lol scar bros!

[@rebeccakickass1776]

How do you feel about the Batwoman TV show? Because I've got feelings both Bad & Good one

[@knightofarnor2552]

That anti-marriage policy right there is some major bullcrap...

[@robertcarnline4473]

I see Nocturna is popping up in Dark Crisis. Thoughts?

[@gracetrainor4712]

Wait, "for a bit."; you mean he isn't called that anymore? I can go back to reading comics with Tim in it?

[@talentlesshack397]

Context is what?

[@johndouglas7790]

I going to see if i can find some of those comics i have some of them in boxes

[@clinttyrrell1848]

Why not have Nocturna encounter Dracula?

[@ESTComicsEvolutions]

Now she’s apart of the suicide squad

[@toganium4175]

I'm surprised you were able to make a 12 minute video out of her.

[@zxfullgrand2535]

KZbin is not all overt. The users keep telling you to like Cher. Sometimes, they go so far to say to like Common, or tell Common to like Cher, or to like both!

[@joeford6114]

So there was outrage over hals "supposed" threesome, but none over the bloody seduction/ borderline on panel rape of batwoman... lol, times have changed