The Continous Problem of Warcraft: Where Are the Horde?

[@TimmyTheNerd]

Don't worry. When Blizzard needs to kill off another major character, they'll look to the Horde for the solution. Again.

[@MrDHalbert]

This. Exactly. The Horde has lost so many of our leaders/big characters that define our faction. Yet the Alliance have lost maybe a couple, and most of the time, they get them back.

[@francescoporcari8597]

@@MrDHalbert They have just literally sidelined Malfurion (He was never killed, but the was put on the bench for most of WoW story) and Tyrande (please kill her). And don't forget Genn Greyman has retired to let the new girlboss take the stage centre. Ban'orak willing forgot WoD for some reason.

[@Tenbed]

@@francescoporcari8597 Assuming they're gone because of that is pure cope. Genn directly stated that he may not be king anymore but he will still do his part for the alliance. Malfurion and Tyrande will be big players in Midnight, bet on it.

[@bishyassss9586]

@@francescoporcari8597 bffr. The worgens got a whole godam campaign and new city which looks amazing. The night elves also got one IN THE DRAGON ISLES and a part of the campaign was dedicated to them. Malfurian was left on the side? What about thrall? Thalyssera? Lot themar? Liandrin? Talanji? Specially after Jaina killed her dad and she was just “okay” with it?

[@soujourne]

they kill o0ff plenty alliance as well, too bad the banshee queen wasnt killed off, though, id prefer her over do nothing green jesus thrall

[@HawkknightXC88]

Lack of Horde Characters for the next upcoming expansion is very worrying since we haven't seen Baine, Rexxar, Rokhan, Chen, Talanji, and etc do stuff during SL and small bits in DF. I would like to see more variety of characters besides what we got going into War Within.

[@UncrownedKingDante]

I would consider those characters as good as dead, blizz wont even bother with them since they will be introducing new horde characters, especially Baine, Rexar and Rokhan.

[@Dangitbobby-KFP_Shaman]

Very well articulated and I couldn't agree more. Horde main for life here and I've just felt so out of place for so damn long. It's incredibly demoralizing. I MISS the Horde and I shouldn't have to feel that way.

[@tonykeer]

u had warlords of dranor horde only expansion but horde alway cry when they are not centered alliance dont

[@kylekopsi7039]

What horde city do you think our friends in the alliance will siege “in the name of peace” next xpac?

[@mattpedia1933]

@@kylekopsi7039 You can't seriously be using that as your explanation of events for going after Sylvanas in undercity after she burned Teldrassil. You can't be the noble savage warriors who live by strength and honor and also commit war crimes and cry victim, you need to pick an identity. Also Sylvanas was the one that destroyed Undercity and escaped and it was written like she had some 4D chess level mastermind plan the entire time. Horde are immune to ever getting consequences for their actions. They're even allowed to be inside the new world tree or whatever {admittedly I haven't played a ton of Dragonflight} despite their atrocities regarding the old one.

[@kylekopsi7039]

@@mattpedia1933 you didn’t answer my question at all, and the fact you got so offended by it and went off on a tangent just proves my point more. I don’t mind there being war in Warcraft. I’m not making excuses for anybody. I want Garrosh’s Horde back 😂 I want Varian’s Alliance back. You’re upset at Steve Denuser not me. “Horde bad they burned down a tree 😡” so which Horde city do you think they’ll siege next?

[@kylekopsi7039]

@@mattpedia1933 who was the last Alliance leader we killed? Because I can name at least six horde leaders that have been killed 😂 which faction was locked in literal fucking internment camps for triple the length of World war 2?

[@RexVenge95]

Theory: We'll take center stage in Midnight, specifically Lor'themar, Liadrin, and Thalyssra. Also, I think they're saving Thrall (and maybe the Tauren) for the eventual face off with Iridikron rather than with Xal'atath. Not to mention the datamined icons for a "Goblin raid" which could very well be Horde heavy.

[@denikehi4579]

"Dream big, child" tauren don't ever get anything, only taken from

[@phonicrose8395]

​@@denikehi4579Laughs in Highmountain

[@denikehi4579]

@@phonicrose8395 Are you sure about that?

[@phonicrose8395]

@@denikehi4579 yeah, Tauren got a massive lore focal point with High Mountain and their background. The also got a nice lore chunk in DF. Meanwhile Blood Elves haven't gotten anything really beyond the Heritage quest in SL and before that it was nothing really since Wrath. Belves and Goblins are among the two least represented Horde Core races in terms of story focus

[@atreyos9449]

I think all the forces of the light will fight to the voids ones in azeroth

[@MrOrcshaman]

The problem they created, was how they made sure the major overarching themes within the games lore is primarily focused on races adjacent to the alliance. Azeroth? Dwarf focused. Legion? Draenei focused. Magic? Dalaran and human focused. They haven't tried to build the horde races as having integral parts of the games overarching lore for a long time. The last time they did was, outside of the factions warring, the focus being about the forsaken with the scourge and lich king, and blood elves around the sunwell.

[@Skollshorties]

The solution was Thrall who's heavily tied to Shamanism. And is weirdly being absent when those kinds of stories are being fleshed out. They can definitely make it work if they tied to other elements too like race.

[@KiaStout]

I felt wod was incredibly orc driven.

[@MrOrcshaman]

@@KiaStout that is true, but let's be honest that wasn't tied to anything around azeroth, in order to make orc lore they had to do time travel alternate timeline stuff on the orcs homeworld in order to make anything for them.

[@MrOrcshaman]

@@Skollshorties yeah, I mean it's not like they couldn't work horde races into it, the horde is far more connected to shamanism then the alliance, and the blood elves have a strong connection to magic.

[@francescoporcari8597]

I agree only to a certain extent, Vanilla was well balanced, but then they failed at keeping overarching themes in general. I would say the Lich King/Scourge/Shadowlands are undead focused.

[@ImanGHR]

The problem with the Horde today is that it's lost the edge that made it cool and unique. It used to be fierce and bold, where if you wanted to be Warchief, you'd earn it through a mak'gora-a brutal combat to prove your strength and leadership. But now, the Horde has a council that votes on decisions? That's just not the Horde we used to know. The Undead, once ruthless and chilling, have turned into a group of sentimental characters who spend more time reflecting on their emotions and mistakes. What happened to the fearsome Forsaken? Even the Trolls, who were once led by strong and dynamic characters, seem to lack a clear leader or spokesperson. So many iconic Horde characters have been killed off or turned into something they're not. Saurfang, once a legend among Orcs, is gone. General Nazgrim was killed and then brought back as just a follower for some mission table. Garrosh, who had a complex and compelling story, is also dead. Vol'jin's death felt cheap, and his return was confusing and unsatisfying. Sylvanas, who was already a fascinating character, was made Warchief-a role that didn't suit her-and then her storyline was completely derailed. Even Grommash, in both his versions, is gone. With Thrall and Lor'themar as some of the last remaining leaders, the Horde seems more focused on diplomacy and dealing with new races like the Vulpera. Where are the Orcs who were ruthless warriors, ready to die in honorable battle beside their comrades? Now they seem tamed, domesticated, and nothing like the Orcs who joined the Horde in the first place. It's disappointing to see the Horde become something that feels watered down, stripped of its grit and ferocity. The original spirit of the Horde was about strength, honor, and courage, but now it's been replaced with bureaucracy, sentimentality, and characters who don't seem to fit the Horde's legacy. It's a sad state of affairs for anyone who loved the old Horde.

[@francescoporcari8597]

Absolutely agreed. Horde was about noble savages plus edgy undead plus arrogant bloodelves (there was never a good reason for them to join the Horde). Alliance was about WC3 human faction plus Night elves in general a bit racist and snotty. Now it seems that everything has been watered down.

[@atreyos9449]

Idk but most of the savage, brutal, skirmisher, deadly clans of the orcs are gone, now only we have frostwolves, maghar and few members of blackrock clan.

[@Amplifymagic]

That one little scene of the WC3 group defending the world tree was awesome (Rexxar, Chen, Baine, Thrall, Rokhan all together) but they need more of that and it wasn’t enough. Narratively they have been nonexistent.

[@thenerdbeast7375]

Don't forget as well as Tyrande and Anduin, Shadowlands' highlight was the whole Sylvanas thing which was really further shaming the Horde or at least that was how I felt every time her fucking new model appeared on screen.

[@mattpedia1933]

Horde SHOULD be shamed, you are all complicit in her war crimes. Ever horde player character that existed before BfA is a war criminal

[@fumarc4501]

I’m just glad if any of the elves are getting more screen time it’s the terribly half backed void elves. I can see the Forsaken playing a part in the War Within, seeing as there are life infused undead. Those Harronir might be an interesting conversation starter between the Night Elves and the Darkspear Trolls. The Pandaren and Vulpera could use some love as well. No idea how, but some progression with them would be nice all the same.

[@ricardocampos2614]

Finally someone talks about this!

[@tekamer6566]

i miss garrosh so much...

[@LowestForm0fwit]

Christie Golden was positively obsessed with Anduin, and every expansion since MoP was completely consumed with making sure we knew what he was doing, so now that she's gone hopefully we stop having to showcase him so much after this first part of World Soul Saga. The Horde has felt irrelevant since BFA since WoW has preferred to keep throwing larger and larger threats that we have to hold hands together to overcome. I miss the Horde and Alliance being at each other's throats.

[@ninaloveray]

U do realize that they can’t continue with killing each other forever. Just like in real life. Just because your ancestors made wars with others doesn’t mean u need to keep doing that. Peace will always come since nobody wants to see people die constantly.

[@Altrantis]

I dunno how many times I've saved him as horde. Why am I made to save him? And from what I've heard from TWW, it's going to continue.

[@mattpedia1933]

​@@Altrantisalliance had to do a bunch of shit to save thrall in cata too though

[@Nerd704]

@@mattpedia1933 One Xpac and thrall was barely in it until like the last raid. He just kinda stands in the maelstrom looking awful (Cata thrall is the absolute worst thrall look) Anduin has a bigger presence in MoP (The first time he was a real pressence) than Thrall does in Cata.

[@SandrinoEscobar]

We're in early access already and yep, the Horde is nowhere to be seen.

[@Skollshorties]

Yup I've been playing early access myself of late. Just got out of Hallow Falll. And no Horde. Not the greatest feeling still.

[@Mg95a]

I just want more Nightborne... specifically, Nightborne vs Naga. I love the Nightborne, because they are what I've wanted to play. Old school Highborne Night Elves, obsessed with the Arcane but also have their own Identity of being able to gather magical and powerful artifacts like the Pillars of Creation and have a mastery over certain aspects of the mage-craft like Teleportation. (We were told Thalyssra alone summoned the entire Horde army of Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken and Nightborne in the SL pre-novel...) The Shen'dralar didnt cut it for me because they never developed into their own thing after joining Darnassus. I hope Midnight expands on Nightborne as well. I really hope the Naga return and their is a story that continues the hatred between the former Highborne of Zin-Azshari and the current Highborne of Suramar

[@francescoporcari8597]

The Shendra'lar were such a waste. But they stick to Nelves = treehuggers narrative. My headlore for every nelv character has always been a Shen'dralar, that's why I choose the fair skin colour. In addition since WC3 I never appreciated the matriarchy in the nelven society.

[@Mg95a]

@@francescoporcari8597 they were a waste and still are, because they're just Night Elf Tree hugging Mages, which was never a Highborne thing. I never really gave much thought to the matriarchal lead society in W3, because it was always about the characters. Tyrande was a great character in that game...but I was always more intrigued by the Highborne, when first mentioned by Lady Vashj. The Shen'dralar could have been something interesting, but Blizzard forgot about them after Cata. Now, Nightborne is where I go and what I main because they have character and make for the best Naga rivals. My main is a Nightborne Warlock, with green skin and green eyes to get as close to "Felborne" as possible. Indeed, my Alliance main is a Night Elf Arcane Mage, whom I RP as a Highborne, but... Her faction is so dull, that I really don't like playing her when all she is, is a Tree hugging Arcanist.

[@ninaloveray]

Nightborne have no history with the Naga apart from the small interaction they had in Nazjatar. So it make no sense to show they are swore enemies. Not even the Night elves are the main enemies of the Naga anymore. Naga will probably ally with the other elves against the void

[@bishyassss9586]

thalyssera being a character with so much potential not being used

[@phonicrose8395]

She will be in Midnight. She's Lor'themar's wife.

[@bishyassss9586]

@@phonicrose8395 that’s it… a 10000 year old mage who had the potential to be Azeroth strongest mage.. became a wife

[@phonicrose8395]

@@bishyassss9586 It secured her a spotlight in the storylines that feature Blood Elves going forward. Not to mention, now if they kill of Lor'themar or sideline him, which the current trend is sidelining or killing OG leaders especially if they're men. She'll be the defacto head of Blood Elves and Nightborne. Just like Moira leads the Dark Irons. But aside from that, being someone's wife isn't a bad thing, and she didn't lose her magic when she got married.

[@bishyassss9586]

@@phonicrose8395 I am not against the marriage. I am against the lack of exploration of their relationship. It seemed rushed. Notice how we barely saw them together, only in a campaign with azshara but I feel like they barely talked even there. I am infact angry at how they didn’t explore her magic. All she does is barriers, 10000 years of arcane knowledge for this?

[@phonicrose8395]

@@bishyassss9586 I gotcha. We also see bits of thier relationship in the unlock scenario for Nightborne. I DO hate that their wedding and everything for it was a purely OFF-screen thing, that happened in-between SL and DF. As for being the First Arcanist. Her magic seems to be mainly on Barriers, Location Spells, and Enchanting. Of course she is also adept in Teleporation. But not so much as Occuleth. Who she has us use for said portals 99.99% of the time. I don't see a problem with her having a specialized magic thing like Shields. When you consider her entire people are all heavily steeped in Magic, and the Blood Elves are also a magic based people. But I wouldn't mind her doing more Arcane things. Atm the biggest Arcane users are Kalecgos and Khadgar. So like I do get what you're saying, and I hope we see more of her magic going forward.

[@MurakamiTenshi]

Blizzard has been bashing the Horde faction since Cataclysm... How many times has a Horde capital city get raided, versus Alliance cities? How many Alliance leaders fell to ruin or got killed off? The quiet parts need to be spoken out loud.

[@Skollshorties]

And those are the stories the Alliance people say we're getting that makes us get nothing completely fair. Moments like Vol'jin dying after becoming Warchief. It's frustrating.

[@heatherwind]

Thank you for this, and I completely agree. Yes, Thrall has been making a comeback in the narrative, but not in the context of actually leading the Horde. The Alliance still gets a King / Regent, but we have a Council and the spirit of what was the Horde feels broken and secondary. It's been said MANY times over the years that the Alliance races and storylines are favored because they're the traditional "good guy" races of fantasy fiction, and therefore no matter what they do, it's justified and heroic. The Horde is made up of traditional "monster" races, so any attempts to humanize or make them sympathetic characters is pointless. Thrall isn't even leading the Horde now - he left that job back in Cataclysm to protect the world itself, and that's fine. But Vol'jin got shafted in more ways than one, and even his death ended up feeling like a throwaway event. We never truly got to know him as Warchief, and he wasn't given anywhere near the valiant send off that Varian got. I've been a Horde main since I started playing in 2006, and at this point the more it feels like we're being relegated to tokenism in the narrative, the more it makes me want to support the faction out of sheer spite. It's a challenge when you have a fantasy world where Humans aren't the only dominant intelligent race, granted. But that doesn't mean the rest of us just have to accept being sidekicks to their story. Hell, I've lost count of how many of our quests involve escorting, outright saving, or cleaning up a mess for an Alliance NPC. So yes, I agree it's time (especially after the mess a certain shamed dev left in his wake with the burning of Teldrassil) for the Horde to get some love again.

[@Knight-of-Sarcasm]

That was really good! I noticed a bit of it here or there questing/playing with my BE WL and other alts of both factions, but you brought it up so clearly that it's like, Huh Blizz. Fix it. I haven't seen the Alpha nor any of the hype. Avoiding to be fresh. Tou did really well miminizing the spollers for WW, and just sticking to the things that came out that we know about from general leaks from Blizz itself even. I'm glad I clicked from MrGM's server. :)

[@nick5661]

I'll be happy with the alliance getting focus here if midnight has lothremar and tharilsa (sick at names) has them front and center.

[@Skollshorties]

My main concern with that is it's still not enough hand also that's like two years from now.

[@Estraneo]

Well-said! I admit, my interest in The World Soul Saga has gotten less instead of more the more it looks like Alleria and Anduin are the only characters that will matter. I just have no investment in their arcs and the fact that the writers don't seem to care about the stories that made me love WoW-- that is to say non-traditional fantasy where more than just elves and humans can stand front and center as heroes --make me worry that this isn't the game for me anymore. People say to look to Midnight for the Horde, but I can't say I'm hopeful for Midnight from what I've seen. I know WoW. I know that the scorned anti-heroes using the forbidden powers of the enemy are a favorite trope of the writers and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sin'dorei sidelined in an expansion centered in their capital. After all, these are the writers that have Aethas buying gifts for Jaina, the writers that didn't spare a thought for any of the Horde races that Kil'jaeden meddled with during his raid tier and thought that the biggest role Horde deserved to play in Argus was a muffin quest and a single shrine in a cave. And the less said about the Horde's treatment in Shadowlands (ie: the death expansion where they did not think to involve the undead race or the races whose cultures focused on speaking to the dead) the better. I don't believe for a second that the Sin'dorei, much less the Amani, will be anything more than an afterthought at best if not antagonists come Midnight. Between Dragonflight not making time for Mayla and Ebonhorn to share a single word with each other and TWW struggling to give Thrall more than a moment's notice, I'm not seeing much to convince me otherwise. I hope that voices like yours can shift the needle on that, though.

[@marianneootjers4786]

Late reply (and long brain fart incoming =P), but I wonder of one of the reason one faction gets more attention than the other since Shadowlands, is that there are no faction specific question zones. In Shadowlands, Dragonflight and now War Within, Horde and Alliance pretty much do the same quests and go to & through the same zones. In BFA, you'd get different quests, see different zones and meet different cultures depending on wether you play Horde or Alliance. This hasn't been the case I feel since Shadowlands. WW might be more Alliance heavy, and maybe Midnight more Horde heavy, but both Horde and Alliance will go through the same storyline so for the PC it probably doesn't feel like Horde and Alliance get unique to them treatments, which would strenghtening the conncection you'd feel to the faction. For new players, who go through the Expedition intro, Dragonflight and now WW, there probably isn't a strong feeling of connection to a faction or even race. Anyway, long rant over :') Sorry in advance if I made any spelling mistakes, English isn't my first language :3

[@Skollshorties]

Oh yeah big time. Since I'd say Legion really they've started to take an angle less focusing on the Factions in the Zones too. BfA was a return to form but was quickly shoved away again for Shadowlands, Dragonflight and now War Within. War Within is ironically the first time we've had the Factions return in a big way but currently at the start it's very centered on the more Alliance characters. Hopefully we'll see this change in the future patches for War Within.

[@JBish0]

It’s looking more and more likely that Undermine will be a patch zone, so we’ll probably see Gazlowe and the goblins take centre stage there.

[@graveyardoperations7407]

P L E A S E . Please give the Goblins something to eat more than a dungeon.

[@veryontron4279]

Well it's obvious that they're here there and everywhere! But on a serious note I believe that they're going to be more of a focus in Midnight then the War Within as it seems that they've decided to keep this expansion with a smaller cast this time around to give them more focus which is fine.

[@Amplifymagic]

lol no, Midnight will be all about Xala’tath and the elves. If you consider the Bloodelves a primary Horde race then sure we’ll get some new elf stuff but no real Orcish Horde content.

[@Skollshorties]

I think that they should still have Thrall play a large role in War Within with how much they've propped him up.

[@Amplifymagic]

@@Skollshorties he better be, he’s used front and centre in all the promotional posters. It would be a shame if it was a bait and switch.

[@zackodom8765]

IMO they're intentionally watering down the Horde and moving towards light v void as the faction clash. The Horde is the most drastic culturally from the greater homogeneous nature they need to semi-combine the factions...they're going to dissolve the current factions for cosmic factions of some sort.

[@Skollshorties]

They have at least clarified in interviews that they will never dissolve the factions and that we will see Horde vs Alliance again someday. Potentially in Midnight maybe?

[@TekharthaMondatta]

I *HAVE* to assume the Horde will get some serious play now that Metzen's back on board. It seems impossible that he'd let what most consider his own faction stay in the backseat for very long.

[@matthewbreen1951]

Imagine not sending one of the world's most powerful geomancers on an underground expedition..

[@BBTheSixth]

The problem sort of started since Wrath. Horde wasn't really represented as much and as well as it should have compared to the Alliance. Even though Horde had the Forsaken who entire point at the time was revenge on the Lich King, they were waylaid to the side after Wrath Gate and Sylvanas wasn't even there for the LK kill. Horde is only used to be a foil for the Alliance, only reason Garrosh was turned a villain, to be a foil to Varian. Horde is only used to do horrible war crimes, MoP and BfA, and our faction leaders are taken out in the worst ways possible, Cairne and Vol'jin. It also doesn't help thaf 9/10ths of neutral factions are Alliance leaning, Dalaran and Cenarion Circle. The only expansion that Horde was front and center in a positive light is Cataclysm with Thrall as main lead and the Earthen Ring being the main neutral faction, which is probably the only neutral Horde leaning faction there is. Every other expansion it's either Alliance front and center like Legion, or Horde is front and center in a negative light like BfA. Honestly think the developers have no idea what to do or how to handle the Horde at this point.

[@MSinistrari]

It's like because the Alliance is composed of the traditional 'hero' fantasy races, it's easier/less effort to crank out content for them where with the Horde, you're going to have to think about the Orc/Forsaken/Tauren..etc perspective. I was annoyed with the reclaim Gilneas questline in that it was the same for both factions with Alliance getting a few extra lines of dialog. It felt lazy.

[@Fanboy675]

I play Alliance. I'm an RPer, I have horde characters that are basically NPCs. TLDR, I'm Alliance all the way. That said... I agree! We need more Horde content and lore! OMG we do! And not just more fucking green jesus, give our red brothers some 'real' meat to get stuck into.

[@jmbrady1]

one thing that I have done in the game recently is made almost all of the characters I play Zandalari Trolls for the gold making racial doing this has got me about an extra 500g a day passively

[@smarmysmoove7731]

My question is, what happened to the hoard players? I turn on war mode and see nothing but mobs of alliance players. I land in a zone and it's like I just kicked a hornet's nest.

[@sirhc_knil]

Of course I expect Midnight to focus a lot more on the Horde with Quel'thalas of course being the setting and therefore we probably get a lot of Belf content with Lorthemar and through his marriage the Nightborne as well. I would also expect the undead elves in the forsaken to matter and both Darkspear and Zandalaritrolls to form a connection with the Amani trolls. But War Within really has been lacking thus far with the Horde. I like the earthen joining both sides, but realistically: who brought them to the Horde? Who was present to let them get to know the Horde? When the expansion was announced, I had hope for three characters specifically (or even 4): Ji Firepaw, Warlord Geya'rah and Gazlowe. Ji Firepaw I am not sure has done anything since Mop? Geya'rah was a Sylvanas loyalist! Of course that story is long gone by now, but who is she now? Gazlowe has taken leadership over the Goblins since Gallywix ran away. What is he like as Horde leader? The Horde council is such an interesting concept and depends on the relations between the characters, so why not couple some of them together and see how they act? How would those three solve the issues together? Also I want more Mayla Highmountain because she is my fave and I love her and she should be nothing less than a main character

[@MSinistrari]

It's like it's been forgotten that there were High Elves turned into the undead who'd become the Forsaken. Most anyone seems to stick on are the Night Elves that got turned years later.

[@soujourne]

To be fair the horde is regrouping after the banshee queens betrayal, her murdering elves and her own worse, betraying the forsaken. As for anduin, they had to do something to make him more a man than a whiner, lets see how that works out.

[@masonlory3565]

I get it but then there was a while there with a whole sylvanas questline where the alliance got nothing. I think people ignore some of that stuff

[@Skollshorties]

I don't really see Sylvanas as a Horde character anymore when she outright renounces and disses on the Horde altogether. Do people still see Arthas as an Alliance character in Wrath? I hope not.

[@thenerdbeast7375]

As a member of the Horde after how much we were villain batted by BfA I am more than happy for the Alliance to get the spotlight thank you very much. I am a beaten peon that wants to get ignored by the obviously Alliance biased writers, still reeling from BfA and SL.

[@ZeroDimes]

Oh boo hoo. The devs always had a Horde bias. Look up a Blizzcon where they had a band call the Alliance a bunch of fa__,ots.

[@Ghostalking]

Two factions requires a lot more work since flight path networks, quest chains, camps, locations, characters, zones have to be created for both. I am truly hoping that our return to Azeroth in Midnight will perhaps set off some conflicts between factions. Another issue is that it’s 2024 and most media stay away from race separation and war (especially wars that are split by races). Even though I believe conflicts can be driven by a difference in ideal or purpose, and that tensions can easily be portrayed with apprehension without going full on racist. But I fear Blizzard may not want to walk that line, even though this is what made old warcraft so good. Human and Orcs hated each other, but Thrall, who was enslaved by human and learned their ways, after reuniting with his own kind and traditions, forgave the human, choosing to see the individuals over the whole. Jaina killed her own father to save Orcs. Varyan put aside his hatred of forsaken to fight alongside Sylvanas. There are more stories like that. But people coming together to fight is far less impactful if they were already buddy buddy. The underlying meaning of them pairing up is what truly impacts the moment I doubt Blizzard will ever revert Horde and Alliance peace, but I’d love to see sub factions within each side still battle it out in conflicts that are not big enough for the whole faction to get involved, but gives the players a chance to fight the other camp

[@Skollshorties]

There is a major difference of wanting the Horde and Alliance to both have more storylines than just more stories where they're at each other's throats. They also confirmed in an interview that the two will one day fight again seemingly. But I am asking for a story where the two factions are represented without the need for a faction war too.

[@Ghostalking]

@@Skollshorties I feel like this might arrive eventually. I agree that the current expansions have revolved a lot around Elves. Azeroth has so many rich cultures, I would love some developments for the Trolls, Blood Elves, Forsaken, Taurens, and even Gnomes! I think WoD was great with that! Horde follow Thrall and Garrosh and Alliance followed Yrel and Velen. BFA attempted that too and was somewhat successful there as well. There were a lot of good story telling! But they followed new races that hadn’t really joined a faction yet, leaving the faction lore behind again. I do think that it would be amazing to once again have a common enemy but to go about fighting them in different ways, where the Horde would dive into the Troll situation perhaps and the Alliance into Gnomes.

[@GOODCHRISTIANBOTTOM]

Lol even as an Alliance fan, I could see how hard Blizz f up the horde.

[@marct138]

Maybe it is blizzards way to get more people to play Alliance because most people play Horde these days

[@Govakhelsborne]

I think a really cool evolution to Azeroth's civil conflit for the expansion after TWW could be an ideological civil war in the Eastern Kingdoms where the Alliance needs the Horde's help, who seem to have things more stable on their continent. I could see someone like Turalyon usurping the throne for "the greater good" or the light whilst having a large backing among the people who see him as a more stable leader than Anduin. Anduin's faction could be pushed back and end up refugees in Gilneas + the reworked Silvermoon. The horde could come in and help reconquer the kingdoms which is a good explanation to how we can party up and be at war with the other "faction" at the same time. Imagine the Orcs teaching Anduin about his father's Logosh side, then he becomes an epic warrior/paladin multiclass that actually lives up to his father's badassitude in the players' hearts!

[@fischer739]

I thought we were sick of the civil war stories? I know I certainly am.

[@Govakhelsborne]

@@fischer739 what civil war stories? The only thing close to a civil war there has ever been outside of the books is garrosh taking over part of the Horde in MoP. Horde vs Alliance isn't a civil war, they're separate civilisations on different continents so it's just war. And I'd much rather have that than Walt Disney presents: Dragonflight

[@priestessholleywood]

The last time I saw them, they were camping memories in Eredath.

[@henrikmygren]

With light crystal as focus in war within they could have used Lady Liadrin and maybe named sunwalkers like Aponi/Dezco or any of the named Zandalari prelate out there. Like Nolaki. But guess they save Liadrin for midnight expansion that is Sunwell focused? But yeah so many horde heroes is sitting on the sideline. Maybe a Baine redemption arc since shadowlands or if they truly want to establish new younger generation of heroes make use of some of the new ones zappy boi/Zekhan. Someone mentioned Thalyssra that she has not been used much,true but atleast she had a story with marriage to Lor'themar Theron. But ofcourse not show ingame what I know... Another not used at all mag'har leader Geya'rah. Mag'har who see themselves as pure warrior orcs distrusting of any lightforged draenei and Naarus she should have been part of the story of someone... They better use her in Midnight.

[@kaneslives]

The answer to this problem is simple! (Summons Grimgor)

[@betelgeux6010]

instead of fleshing out the lor´themar thelyssra pairing or how the forsaken council and gilneas work together we got a bunch of forgettable new charas in DF. they also will very likely not be relevant anymore when TWW hits. GG riot kek

[@Altrantis]

The story has felt like it's only been built from the alliance's PoV since legion. Even earlier. I think my Horde rogue has had to save SW like 4-5 times, and I can't even count how many times I've had to save Anduin. Imagine making the Alliance have to save Sylvanas. Repeatedly. I want a several expansion arch of Alliance villainy ending with their defeat and humiliation, with half their faction turning against itself. It would still be half of what the Horde got.

[@francescoporcari8597]

Well, the Alliance saved the Horde from its ruler at least twice. And btw when did you save SW?

[@bobdunkan7224]

Please tell me what music are playing in the start of the vid

[@Skollshorties]

For the intro? Where the wolf howls? That would be Nightsong!

[@bobdunkan7224]

@@Skollshortiesno, after)

[@Skollshorties]

@@bobdunkan7224 That would be Arathi General Music from BfA, I believe

[@Darkvega2k7]

As an Alliance player since vanilla? Doesn't feel nice, does it?

[@Skollshorties]

? I'm assuming you didn't watch the video but the Alliance has had a spotlight on them in almost every expansion. The only exception is Cataclysm.

[@Skollshorties]

And in this same video, I talk about how both sides should be represented. At its core it's a Horde issue mainly but still a problem for both.

[@revjirhcs]

Because of the lack of the Horde i have little to non interest in this TWW exp pack, had the same with Dragonflight aswell and in that exp pack i was right the storyline sucked without the factions and have the feeling we will get that another time around.

[@thenerdbeast7375]

...You are literally everything wrong with the community you know that?

[@Skollshorties]

Hopefully still time for this to be amended though it is only alpha.

[@hardwing]

Still have hopes for patch 0.1 These Breaker/Bothani model have to mean something.

[@jmcghane]

I think The War Within they'll give that to the Alliance, Midnight they'll side with the Horde (for obvious reasons) and for The Last Titan both should be show case equally.

[@Skollshorties]

This is a poor idea and we already know Midnight will feature in the other elven races so I am doubtful of that. WoW needs to not make it about one faction but both.

[@jmcghane]

@Skollshorties I agree, but knowing them, it's just strong hunch. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[@Venetheus]

Cataclysm and Pandaria were Horde centric where Alliance characters were forced to be mute jobbers/sidekicks to Horde heroes. Also, the Robot Cat. I'm not saying it's justified but the War Within is just the pendulum shifting in the opposite direction

[@Skollshorties]

Doesn't work that way. Especially when the Alliance and Horde still featured heavily in both of those expansions regardless. War Within doesn't really feature the Horde at all and that's the integral problem. BOTH should feature and it should never result in either being relegated to the side.

[@Venetheus]

@@Skollshorties How do you imagine? In Cataclysm my Alliance character was forced to play as a jobber to Thrall, Aggra, and his whole midlife crisis storyline --- and Pandaria was a horde civil war plot with the Alliance getting a robot cat, a polite finger wagging at the expansion's end, and mainly existed as a punching bag/non entity/spectator for Horde sheniganigans. Sounds to me like this is the same story issues with Cata/MoP just in reverse

[@Skollshorties]

@@Venetheus Thrall's whole thing was one questline, one dungeon, and one raid? Compared to the entirety of the expansion. Yeah that's not really comparable. Pandaria was a civil war with the Horde with the Alliance helping out? That had several moments where the Alliance bested Garrosh and his corrupted Horde. Or the Alliance taking the fight against the Thunder King. Or the fact the Civil War wouldn't have worked without the Alliance and Horde coming together. This isn't the same thing. Do you wanna know why? Because the Horde wasn't present at all. Alliance had stories STILL to cling to for Cataclysm and MoP especially.

[@Venetheus]

@@Skollshorties The Alliance stories in Cata (when they weren't being gimped by some dated and poorly conceived CSI or Rambo Parody (Westfall and Redridge in those respective cases) were defined by the faction as a whole being kicked in the teeth, losing territory left and right (Auberdine, Loch Modon, Southshore, Gilneas, and at a later date pretty much all of the Alliance military presence in the southern barrons + Theramore via southshore.) ---- and again, it wasn't even that we were fighting a losing war, it was that the writing quality of those stories were unfinished, broken by halfa**sed phasing technology (Sentinel Hill has been on fire for over 10 years), or narratively being cucked by creator's pets like Sylvanas and then-Garrosh. Worgen players were never given the option to "win" because "winning" would involve reconquering their homeland and defeating some dev's undead waifu who kept getting resurrected over and over and over again. The writing quality of Alliance content during Cata was significantly worse than the Horde's across the board. I'm not saying the War Within, or Legion, were perfect, but I fail to see how it's any different than an inverted version of Cataclysm's failings. It's dumb as heck that a Loyalist Orc should pal around with Anduin, I agree --- and it's equally dumb that a hero of the Alliance should play jobber to Metzen's self insert going through his mid life crisis---Green moses was framed as the *protagonist* of Cataclysm, which I'm sure was nice from the Horde side, but it was painful as heck on the alliance side. FFs Tides of War and Pandaria just continued the Alliance humiliation ritual. ToW is self explanatory (narratively pretty much all of the Alliance presence in the southern barrens was wiped out, it wasn't just Theramore) and it was a massive, decisive win for Garrosh and the Horde. Again with Alliance teeth kicking. And as I think I said before --- the freaking Robot Cat stuff in Pandaria. MoP was a horde story with the Alliance as the supporting cast. I'm not saying what Legion and The War Within is justified -- but again, it really just seem like an inverted problem that *began* with Cataclysm Alliance side

[@hypnotic13371337]

Its all in a not-in-game-book..... probably

[@Mofiah]

i mean thrall was in the cinematic for the new expansion so i'd hope hes included in it lol

[@redlion562]

TBH as a player for just almost 20 years in wows career, I had issues with getting buddies to play Horde since legion. People hated and i mean Hated that sylvannas was "ruined" according to there opinion. Honestly my 2 cents is i agree with you and im saddened that the Horde have fallen sense then. People will also argue that in BFA horde was in crazy since saurfang/thrall/Sylvannas blah blah but tbh Alliance still won the far and ended ruiling anyways. Horde has been destroyed over the years from having a Warchief let by even varion wrynn to a council? the f is a democracy inwarfare? that to be makes zero sense. However people our day in age love the though of "freedom everywhere" well not debating that atm im saying the story sucks... but i am hoping like you that Thrall will be much more relevant i mean i did like that surfang was kinda like anduins dad in way. I hope to see thrall guide him too.

[@dess3597]

The pickle will not save the horde. The True horde died with Garrosh.

[@barrelz8646]

Yes but.. the real question is.. why? I can understand the frustration but imo the horde's story in general feels resolved after Saurfang's death, meanwhile alliance still had issues and STILL have issues, they have a king that abandoned his throne a potentially dangerous void infused person ( Alleria ) and a dangerous light zealot ( Turalyon ) and they had the night elves with no home and the gilneans with their king being permanently in stormwind? i'm a huge horde fan but let's be real, the alliance has the most fuckery going on right now, and it is alliance characters that are going to trigger Midnight. And the other question is.. Must there be factions though? we have been working together since forever now, Thrall is literally friends with the KING of the alliance? i think it is about time we part ways with factions and focus on the real real enemy.

[@Skollshorties]

Yes. The Factions a core part of Warcraft and removing either isn't good.

[@barrelz8646]

@@Skollshorties And neither is trying to make them always compete for equal relevancy a good thing, because it's not a horde vs alliance thing any more lol Surely we will still be yelling for the horde and for the alliance and destroying each other's ships when there a big giant blue dude about to smite us in the last expansion.

[@Amplifymagic]

No one said it’s a competition, but every single major lore conflict has a cast of classic Tolkien Alliance based protagonists to narrate the story. Warcraft needs more Horde identity, they even tease us with Thrall in the promotional posters but he’s absent in the alpha.

[@Skollshorties]

@@barrelz8646 Odd of you to make this into "Make it Horde vs Alliance" when I am saying I want it to be Horde AND Alliance.

[@barrelz8646]

@@SkollshortiesAnd i just don't see the need for this divide then if you want it to be Horde AND Alliance? Does this meaningless divide serve any purpose? Other than just fancy name and aesthetics?

[@jeanpierre3061]

Hot take but I want Blizzard to bring back faction wars. I want more characters like Garrosh and Saurfang. More friction inside the factions. I feel WoW lost a lot of it's identity with these last 2 expansions focusing heavily on "friendship is magic".

[@Skollshorties]

I personally don't think we need faction wars for the Horde to be elevated. Not against the faction war to return but it's gonna be done correctly and done right.

[@hypnotic13371337]

in SL, Horde should have gotten a storyline with Baine meeting Cairne. And to prove that theres an alliance bias, they let the garrosh shitty cutscene go through to live. Not that i don't think it was a cool idea or anything, but that one of the most "Horde" characters EVER only got like, 1 dude on his lunch break to animate it because of his passion???? and they let that shitty looking cutscene go through with it looking like that as a paid service cutscene???? Never woulda happened to Varian, all im saying

[@Skollshorties]

I don't feel like this exactly an appropriate response to somebody's passion though. Cutscenes don't get a budget sometimes and that's just the truth of it. They only recently got better technology for cutscenes too BEFORE the Garrosh one.

[@hypnotic13371337]

@@Skollshorties as ive heard it, we weren't even going to get that cutscene in the first place before the guy that did it brought the idea up, and they okayed it and it was just them on it. If that was the case, passion alone Wasant enough to carry that project to the usual quality and it was mis managed. I'm not shitting on their passion for it, it would have been just fine if they had it be a thing that happened in game like the part in the lich king fight where frostmourne was broken. But they made it a cutscene, camerawork and voice acting and all of that..... And Just put one dude on it and sent whatever they had out.

[@Skollshorties]

@@hypnotic13371337 I think you've a massive misunderstanding on how Cutscenes like that operate though. That was the standard back then. Cinematics and Cutscenes are on a different scale and budget. This was a cutscene not a Cinematic. And I think it's great we got one at all.

[@Pb-bs3ii]

When it comes to power levels .... Horde has nothing. Talanji lost her loa infused power. Thalyssra is supposed to be this powerful chronomage yet she cowers before jaina. Aethas Sunreaver pales in comparison to the fire mage king Kaelthas. We lost Sylvanas due to bad storytelling. Thrall lost his shaman powers and while we saw a hint of it coming back at SL it looks like they have no intention of bringing him back to what he was ... the world shaman. Rokhan isn't as powerful as Voljin was. Horde LITERALLY HAS ZERO POWERHOUSES. This is a travesty.

[@Skollshorties]

Talanji regained her loa powers? Thalyssra was still abel to go toe to toe with Azshara alongside Jaina? And Thrall regained his shaman powers and is still one of the strongest shamans in the game. The Horde does still have its power houses. And also, Vol'jin is about to become a literal God/Loa.

[@lgr9793]

@@Skollshorties But truth be told, when those horde powerhouses go against those of the alliance, they suddenly look like low level mobs in comparison because of bad writting and alliance bias, Jaina and human characters being more powerful than the whole blood elven/nightborne population of mages being just one example

[@zonolith5912]

I think we just got character bloat. We want to see characters thrive and develop, but we have so many characters at any given time that the only way we've been able to see the most equal share from all races and all characters was Legion, when we literally had to split, essentially, major missions into class association.

[@Skollshorties]

I mean the issue is they're giving focus to two Alliance characters like Alleria and Anduin. When Thrall is right there.

[@zonolith5912]

@@Skollshorties I just mean in general for characters in any given story, but also where is Baine? Dude is due for some actual front and center content if Thrall is.

[@mattpedia1933]

Literally the first short story out of a collection of upcoming shorts doesn't feature horde: "WHERE ARE THE HORDE?" You guys are wildin if you really can't stand being not the main character for the first of what looks like 6 total upcoming stories. Horde is and always has been the favorite faction. Its not a giant statue of a Stormwind knight that sits outside Blizzard HQ, after all.

[@PurpleShades11771]

Let alliance have the spotlight for once without horde starting shit. Horde had cata, mop, wod, bfa. Maybe if horde was more than loktar ogar and then offing their own warchief you can have more interesting characters.

[@Skollshorties]

No. The Horde hasn't had the spotlight for a hot minute and even then it's no longer about "who should get it" it's become both sides should be represented. And the Horde does have plenty of interesting characters you absolute fool.

[@PurpleShades11771]

@@SkollshortiesIm just saying be happy you even get time unlike alliance.

[@Skollshorties]

@@PurpleShades11771 Except the Alliance has gotten more screen time of late lately. Both sides should be represented. Not one side.

[@MurakamiTenshi]

It is canon that Alliance got to raid Orgrimmar (twice), Undercity, and Zandalar with impunity. Where are the raids on Allaince capitals?

[@LordMazafeff]

The Horde suffers from the issue of the original creators/writers of warcraft loving and identifying with orcs/horde but at the same time being unable to commit to being the villains.

[@Skollshorties]

No. The Horde haven't been villains since Warcraft 2. They've had villainous characters like Garrosh/Sylvanas but not as an entire faction.

[@NicholasLi10]

You know what I don’t care about factions any more and I want them to use whatever character that fits the narrative until then focus on a small cast instead of random big cast of characters just to appease both faction player base. I’ve had it with the faction BS.

[@Skollshorties]

I mean I've personally had it with being told this when it doesn't really work either. As explained in the video, it doesn't feel good as to what they've been doing.

[@teentitan1224]

Or you could be like me. Every race -and- allied race have plot but my love for vulpera is, by exaggerations five paragraphs of lore. A race living in harsh conditions and terrain, using vials, poisons, sands as weapons. Raising hyena and killer krolusk as mounts. Nothing, not even Kiro being involved, but a few parts of a book.

[@MSinistrari]

To me, the vulpera felt tacked on. For how long people have wanted Ogres, Taunka, even Murlocs as playable options, races that have long established history in the lore, instead here's the recently made up vulpera 'ain't they cute can't dislike them'.

[@teentitan1224]

@@MSinistrari I agree, what's even more funny is that people wanted Sethrak of the two. Not only were the vulpera tossed in but they were forgotten entirely.

[@michaelkelley2727]

lok'tar, ban'orak

[@Xehanortlw]

Wheres my boy lor thermar

[@jasonwowhero8147]

The writers have been alliance centric since Mists of pandaria. Horde gets one raid. And after that it just turned into alliance story. Wod was about more the coming of the legion and alliance kind of led that story lore wise, legion. Was 100% alliance driven. Anduin being anduin as always. Rainbow kitten "oh my daddy" all zones revolving around alliance characters and factions, battle for azeroth they get a raid to attack the horde. Then horde doesnt get to attack them back oh no. The old god nzoth and stuff. And then shadowlands. I only played my horde toons and it felt like the entire time i was helping only alliance characters and helping their goals and their needs not even helping the horde. The horde turned into this council of leaders that arent worth a lick of salt. Hell the random homeless goblin on the corner could be the next trade prince for all i know. There is no warchief. Dragonflight. Ok we got some horde quests but everything still revolved around allliance and their needs and wants. I mean hell the final raid was to give night elves a new home for the horde to burn again :D. But seriously even the prepatch of war within is completely alliance narative following void elves.... imagine 3 expansions entire plot being revolved around alliance problems again. I just cant. Like jesus

[@mikedarling905]

no faction wars. = harder to keep up the horde and alliance equal time.

[@Skollshorties]

Wasn't really an issue in Wrath of the Lich King.

[@mikedarling905]

@Skollshorties yes but all blown out faction wars getting old. Racial conflicts are OK. But so many boundaries are broken and mists taught us that we can put aside our differences and fight a common threat. Heck lfg is cross faction now

[@Skollshorties]

@@mikedarling905 I'm not asking for Faction Wars either. You can definitely tell stories without it, focus on the factions and races (and their leaders). Anyone who thinks otherwise is silly.

[@eddiOrtiz]

they pushing for female boss themes for last 2-3 expacs, thats why

[@Skollshorties]

Shut up.

[@dark9nine]

Cleaning SW WC's

[@raulborges5409]

Maybe that is because the horde is really more popular than alliance (and im alliance), maybe they just want to make some people change side

[@Skollshorties]

I don't think that makes much sense. Also, you're not going to get people to change sides with that tactic either.

[@Ballagorn_Ironblood]

There are few really good questions that needed to get answers and first of them is put in the video Wheres the Horde? When Orc Paladin? When Vupleras and Gnomes be remove from the game? Wheres delicious War Crimes? Why virgin Consoul instead of chad Warchief? Whos the next Warchief? When we join Vilains of the story instead been blind naive heroes beliving "good guys" all the time at 100%? When virgin Dractyr will be repleace by chad Drakonid? So many questions that need to be adressed to make Warcraft great again

[@Skollshorties]

No.

[@francescoporcari8597]

If they still has some love for their lore there will never be a Orc Paladin. I may agree on the rest.

[@MichaelLoda]

Pog new video

[@zandermander787]

Goblin incoming

[@hawgpit5274]

Holds up SL as example Doesn't mention Sylvanas once Yup, seems legit

[@Skollshorties]

?

[@Skollshorties]

Sylvanas stopped being a Horde character by BfA. Why would I include her as a primary character?

[@hawgpit5274]

@Skollshorties She was one of, if not the most popular characters of the horde for 20 years. She is and will always be associated with the horde.

[@Skollshorties]

@@hawgpit5274 I don't share that sentiment. If you have a character leave the Horde, degrade the Horde, and reject the Horde? They're no longer apart of the Horde. For right now she's not apart of it.

[@SpiritTapPriest]

Horde is now an army of female blood elves on Wyrmrest and Moon Guard. Sorry bros.

[@Nokomak]

What'd you expect. They're the villains. Not to mention it's just the faction for potheads to go sign and say "actually the humans are bad". Yeah 'cause the orcs aren't just always genocidal. I wonder how the Draenei feel about the orcs. Peachy, I'm sure.

[@kylekopsi7039]

In Lor’themar’s own words the Horde only exists because the actions of The Alliance. They treat the horde races like shit (ie, blood elves, orcs, Tauren) and that’s what led them to The Horde. So now that the factions don’t matter racism doesn’t exist and everybody can coexist now. There is literally no point left to the horde. The council doesn’t do anything, the fact that the forsaken have degenerated into a council within a council is more proof. They’re a useless faction that cannot exist in this climate, and that’s coming from somebody whose been loyal to the red and black since cata. One of garrosh’s most loyal supporters. The issue is this horde is found on guilt. They will always perceive themselves as the bad guys because Thrall has conditioned them like he was conditioned as a slave. The horde still feels bad about everything they’ve done, but meanwhile even Prophet Velen is willing to forgive intergalactic genocide when it comes to his own people. The Alliance is literally full of void touched psychopaths, intergalactic genocidal space demons and literal fascists who had orcs in internment camps but The Horde is the bad guys because they have spikes and are ugly

[@GOODCHRISTIANBOTTOM]

Oh come on, why you guys always have to pull "The Alliance are the real bad guys! " Card? I mean honestly. First of all, the original Alliance (Alliance of Lordaeron) are actually founded on the basis as a counter faction for the Invading Horde. I don't deny what Lorthemar has said or deny that Alliance has push some of the races into the Horde. But it just doesn't make any sense to try to turn the opposite. Also, I think It's so bold of you, coming from the Horde by calling out the Alliance for accepting void touched psychopath, intergalatic genocidal race, etc. When your faction has the same kind of races with similliar past or background, Hell I could even said that the Horde is built upon foundation of accepting those races and let me remind you it is Kingdom of Lordaeron NOT Stormwind who started the whole internment camp, so if you wanted an repercussions or someone apologizing and begging at your feet, you can start banging at your OWN door then ask it to the forsaken.

[@c.k.8585]

I mean for Shadowlands the main character was Sylvanas. Is she Alliance now? I generally agree with your viewpoint but yeah, Sylvanas?

[@CallmeMastaa]

It was sylvanas and anduin, and sylvanas has left the horde at the end of BFA so she wasn't representing neither.

[@Skollshorties]

Sylvanas heavily implies she wants to rejoin the Forsaken when she is done in the Maw. She still values the Forsaken a lot too in the heritage questline.

[@MrDHalbert]

In my opinion, there has been a TON of heavy Alliance favoritism for years now, and that Blizzard never addresses the atrocities that the Alliance have committed, i.e. Jaina indiscriminately slaughtering any and all Blood Elves in Dalaran for the bombing of Theramore, literally committing genocide. And every time there's anything that makes a single Horde character look even decent, I see a lot of Alliance, not all just a lot, screaming at Blizzard for Horde favoritism.

[@MSinistrari]

I would love to see some repercussions for the Alliance for the nasty actions they've done like the massacre of Camp Taurajo where they forced the civilians into quillboar lands to escape. Closest to anything we've had was Varian mad at Jaina's murder of the Dalaran Blood Elves because it tanked the talks he was having with Lor'themar. For all the whining over the bombing of Theramore, that city was more of a valid military target than Camp Taurajo.

[@GOODCHRISTIANBOTTOM]

Blizz actually did worse than never addressing purge of dalaran, you know what they did? They whitewashed it. I still remember how back in the day they have to confirm that the victims are just few and that the alliance pov of the story is canon, in which there'll only a small amount of victim.

[@Rey-Rey2077]

You wow veterans are always quick to freak out. Relax we not even half way through alpha yet.

[@jiruribakachan365]

As a horde player I am so sick of Blizzards bias. We loose one after one warchief and faction leader, Thrall (to an extend), Cairne Bloodhoof, Garrosh, Vol'jin, Sylvanas. And who has the alliance lost? ohh just Varian? ohh and the leaders of the alliance have commited warcrimes? Jaina killing bloodelves of dalaran for which she USED TO BE expelled but now can just come and go in dalaran as she pleases? Dont forget she also attacked Zuldazar and killed the leader Rastakan while they where not part of the horde. Genn attacking the forsaken troops while they have a truce and commiting genocide by destroying the Lantern, the only way forsaken don't just rot away. When will we see their punishment? Or is it just the Horde that needs punishing?

[@mattpedia1933]

I think a horde player talking about alliance "war crimes" is an absolute joke. In fact most of what you listed were retaliation for horde being the aggressor

[@grumpydinosaur2347]

​@@mattpedia1933nea, there is a lot of things what alliance or humans did. There is a historical reason why elves allied horde, for example

[@mattpedia1933]

​@@grumpydinosaur2347 Garithos and the story of the blood elves leaving the Alliance is actually a time Blizzard did some good writing, and if you follow the chain of cause and effect on both sides, its difficult to really blame either for their choices.

[@murilofreire4569]

I'm right here. Wdym

[@stepanpytlik4021]

In Orgrimmar! 😂😂😂 I'll stop.

[@lnwolf7563]

I felt like the Horde was "the bad guys" for so long and the Alliance never made any serious mistakes the entire time. The writers REALLY screwed up in how they handled the war. That was the perfect opportunity for someone in the alliance *cough* Tyrande and the whole Night Warrior deal, to go off the rails and do something dastardly to the horde. Would have balanced things out and been a little more respectful of the Horde. Lets be honest the current writers have crapped on the Horde for awhile now. We don't get to be the Noble Savages anymore, its all cumbaya and lets hold hands. Screw that, we need the grit back. We don't have to have a full blow war between the factions, but we can go back to not trusting one another like Wrath. Individuals comes together to fight the enemy, but the factions stayed at arms length the whole time. I gave up on DF after only a month of playing it. Havent been back since. War Within might not be able to pull me back, unless they pull off something special Blizz might have seen the last of me.

[@Skollshorties]

I don't personally think the Horde needs to be distrustful for their story to work. And there is nothing inherently wrong with them getting along either. Just gotta keep things interesting. They simply need to be more integral in the story and narrative. And I have no idea why you felt the Horde were "the bad guys" when the narrative barely pushes that. With the exceptions of Sylvanas and Garrosh who were very clearly outliers that the rest of their faction abhorred. A recent interview did confirm that the Alliance and Horde will someday down the line be foes once again. But no idea when that'll be or how. But I'm not expecting it to go to BfA levels again.

[@francescoporcari8597]

I would have love Tyrande pulling off a Garrosh/Sylvanas and as a Highborne rp main, I sincerely hate her leadership, so I would have been onboard with killing her gloriously.

[@lnwolf7563]

There were plenty of things that painted the Horde as the bad guys, the burning of the Tree and the Plague bombs at Undercity to name a few. I also felt like the Horde was always being made out to be the weaker faction. Twice an Alliance army has stood outside of Orgrimar, but never has a Horde army, at least in WOW, been outside of Stormwind. Plus as I said before, the Alliance got to maintain its "we didnt do anything wrong" image the entire time. One of them should have over reacted and given the illusion, at least, that both factions were capable of being bad guys.

[@Skollshorties]

@@lnwolf7563 Both instances of the Plague Bombs and the World Tree were done by a party that later left the Horde and the Horde helped take down in some fashion though.

[@lnwolf7563]

@@Skollshorties They Horde overall was still made to look complicit in them. We helped take Darkshore and we fought in the Battle of Undercity. Not mention as I stated earlier the Horde looked weak because yet again we couldn’t win a stand up fight with the Alliance without resorting to the Plague.

[@UncrownedKingDante]

Lets be honest, most of stuff you said are true. But look at it this way, we considered faction war is over since BFA, and horde dropped few good characters. Talanji is probably biggest potential for future from current horde characters but most of them will be replaced with new characters. Also Gallywix will be very relevant in near future as far as I know. I think alliance has much more interesting character arcs UNRESOLVED, even tho i Agree with you in this video i think horde doesnt have any good stories to tell based on alive characters except Talanji and maybe Gallywix. Rex'ar and baine are way past their prime in storytelling. Since cosmic war between Void and Light will happen soon, Alleria, Turalyon and Anduin are much more relevant characters to the narrative then rest of the horde. Turalyon has probably biggest villain pottential since he is Light brainwashed fanatic. Great video Ban'orak , keep it up..👍

[@UncrownedKingDante]

Also as far as I know Horde will ger bunch of new characters throughout next expansiom, as they said they need fresh blood and I kinda agree with it. Horde needs new leading masculine characters like Garrosh was, current horde setup is Meh.. Saurfang is dead, Thrall will be dead in saga, they need someone new to take the torch from passing generation.

[@wearblackclothes]

Ok look the faction that's basically just a bunch of savages in tents haven't advanced and have locked themsleves to an aesthetic that doesn't fit the theme of progress. Lmao no shit

[@Boris8930]

To be honest I think dragonflight might have been the best expansion. So far war within looks great also. I am open world content player, A collector, gold farmer, I play one of each class and it is a mix of horde and alliance.

[@thebigidea9659]

At the very least Talanji will play some role in the expansion and if rumors of a goblin raid is true we might end up going to the undermine. Thats something at least.

[@invisiblel0ser]

Talanji was used as a placeholder model for the new bat-elf/troll people, so she's not even mentioned in the alpha currently

[@luizfbrcREACTS]

WoD, BfA, Shadowlands -- Literally 3 xpacks w horde centric stories. DF is neutral. WW seems to finally be focusing in a storyline with the alliance at its center or at least adjacent and ppl are already mad? Damn.

[@CallmeMastaa]

BfA was 50/50, which ended with alliance being the savior again. Shadowlands? sylvanas wasn't representing horde at all. Anduin got the same amount of screentime, Tyrande being the second.

[@Skollshorties]

WoD and BfA were not Horde centric stories and had them bost in the focus. DF still had a heavy focus on the Night Elves (a focus that has existed since BfA) and Shadowlands was not focused on the Horde at all.

[@michaelcampbell1170]

the only roles the Horde is allowed to have according to blizz is cannon fodder for Alliance blades or if we're not the enemy, we're boot licking cheerleaders for the Alliance.

[@phonicrose8395]

TBF, Shadowlands had an equal number of Horde and Alliance main characters in all of the covenants, and the raids.

[@facetiouslyinsolent8313]

Crying about things supposedly happening before the launch is how do I say nicely, not smart. If you want to find something to complain about like Dangitbobby and TimmyTheNerd you always will. No game anytime ever has or ever will please everyone. I'm sorry that reality hurts.

[@Skollshorties]

Well, you can certainly attempt to cry about it in the comments or act respectfully towards people's concerns. It's the Alpha! And the entire point of said Alpha is to state your concerns so that they can later be adjusted in a timely manner. I'm sorry if that reality hurts.

[@straighttalkwithkyle7947]

The Horde get what they get. Period.

[@joelbelman5830]

Too busy jumping up around, swinging from trees, rubbing chicken grease to save Azeroth.

[@Skollshorties]

What is wrong with you?

[@erikkarlsson861]

Soo.. When is it the Blood Elves turn to fuck up the Horde?.. No but seriously, I would love a expansion with a more Horde focused storyline were the Hordes leadership dont either get ganked by trash mobs, looking at you Voljin.. Or becomes a raid boss... At this point, fuck it! Anduin is AFK, Tyralion is the party leader, sees whats become of Lorderon and decides to go full Holy Light crusade, could even bring Yrel and he Light orcs. If Im not misremembering he is still Lorderon nobility, when he last saw Lorderon it wasnt the city of the bone-people.. Also, this is complete head-canon and Ill understand if yall gonna hate it but I would actually like if Anduin was Jainas and Arthas bastard she gave away to the Wrynns when the whole Lich King thing happened. Would be so much more poetic with him having to deal with the Shadowlands story, being posessed by the jailor like Arthas but make it so he comes out a better and more mature man after dealing with his trauma. Be the king Arthas could have been you know. Ofc there would have to be retcons but I like the concept on paper at least.

[@Skollshorties]

Bruh why are you bringing up the Anduin is Jaina and Arthas' son here of all places. Just no.

[@erikkarlsson861]

@@Skollshorties So this is my first visit to your channel and the first video of yours Iv seen, have I comited some kind of unknown faux pas?

[@Skollshorties]

@@erikkarlsson861 It's just confusing to bring up an odd theory that is definitely false in a video not regarding it.

[@Adym18]

Unfortunately I think it's because the Horde is essentially supposed to be the bad guys, so I think they have tried to change the horde into not being antagonistic towards the good guys in the Alliance. And in stories where the plot is to save Azeroth, the good guys are going to be favoured.

[@Skollshorties]

The Horde aren't the bad guys and haven't really been since like Warcraft 2. Warcraft 3 made it far less black and white and had them join to save Azeroth entirely. Garrosh and Sylvanas are outliers who were also rebelled against.

[@MSinistrari]

If memory serves, the Horde was originally planned to be the PvP faction so they didn't think to put much into them at start. Since the Horde turned out far more popular than they expected, it's been a hit or miss trying to build them up beyond that early PvP faction concept.

[@Stratoschalo]

it never make sense expet on legion to focuse on the draenai

[@DarkSpells87]

What else can you do with Thrall? Have him dismantle that stupid democracy sh*t going on in Orgrimmar and take mantle of Warchief.

[@Velshin1986]

Why your voice is girly what happened to the testastrone...where the horde? The horde needed more manly players...

[@Skollshorties]

Why is your comment sad and pathetic? KZbin needs more competent commenters.

[@umutaslan7541]

The Horde Will Endure