The Contrarians Panel: Dark Horse Album #1 - KISS Music from the Elder

Take a ride with us in our Patreon discussion on the topic of KISS "Music from the Elder"! If you want to join us in future chats join over at : / contrarians
The Contrarians is a show where one of us jumps in the hot seat picks a dark horse album from a band as that band's best album. The guest host will argue against them with facts, stats and all around truth, subjective and objective!
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[@thecontrarians2438]

Where do you fall on The Elder!? Pro or Con!? Let us know! Want to join our Patreon chats! Head over to Patreon and subscribe at any tier! Hope to see you soon! New Patreons-only content up re: www.patreon.com/contrarians Become a supporter, content exclusive to Patreon subscribers includes as of today: Commercial-Free, Early Access to our episodes! ZOOM chats about music topics with the creators and hosts of The Contrarians! Also you can support us on Ko-fi by going to: ko-fi.com/thecontrarians we appreciate all your support!

[@bicyclelegsmusic]

This was great fun. Thanks for having me on!

[@thecontrarians2438]

Anytime! Great points!!!

[@bj4505]

It was great fun for me to listen to all of the different opinions on this album

[@SWEETFA24]

When I met Gene I asked him if there ever would be an Elder movie. He looked at me as if I was out of my mind!

[@thecontrarians2438]

lol!

[@MyMusicCorner]

Oh man, I didn't know you all did this one. I remember getting this one when it came out and after tolerating Dynasty and Unmasked, I fell in love with the Elder. Honestly, my favorite KISS album right now. I've come to love Under the Rose so much.

[@thecontrarians2438]

Under the rose is good!

[@fajomojo]

The chorus of Under the Rose is a monster. The whole song, the only song in that time signature Kiss ever did, kind of led me to poking around in renaissance and early baroque music.

[@daveycretin664]

This has always been my favorite KISS album. As a progressive-rock fan, I admire their lofty ambitions, even though most view it as a failed attempt. Glossing over the muddled storyline, for me it’s about the songs and the melodies. I’m just a fan of the tunes. Additionally, l remember sneaking into the kitchen late one Friday night, to watch the TV show Fridays on ABC. (It was the network’s version of SNL. SNL was in free fall at the time due to the loss of their entire original cast… but l digress.) The musical guest that night was KISS and as a young rock & roll fan, l liked the songs that l heard. That was my first exposure to the band and I’ve been a fan ever since. The follow up release, Creatures of the Night, is my second favorite KISS album. Long live The Contrarians! Cheers from Noo Yawk!

[@ToddEvans1964]

I agree Davey. Most of the songs are good enough to rise above the incompleteness of the concept. These songs stick with you!

[@leswadley6792]

This was so great guys! I was in 3rd grade when the elder came out! I remember bringing the album to school! This was a popular album at my school! I remember when my sister came and got me and said kiss was on solid gold! I went crazy watching that lol! Would totally dig being on an episode sometime!

[@thecontrarians2438]

awesome thanks for the comment! Come on over to Patreon where we do stuff like this all the time!

[@alexfaulkner735]

@@thecontrarians2438 I remember when Kiss were announced to be on next weeks Solid Gold, I was so excited all week waiting for it and not quite believing they would actually be on that show. At the time I had never seen Kiss perform, I had just heard stories about it. They totally surprised me and blew my mind. To this day I wholeheartedly love the Elder. I have all the Kiss albums and for me, The Elder is second only to Creatures of the Night. Also, I think a lot of The Elder is ahead of its time, there are crazy heavy things on it (for the time) and Dark and brooding moods that we would not hear again for at least a decade. Having always been ridiculed by my Heavy Metal friends for liking this thing it is really nice to see there are actually other people who like it too - I am no longer alone.

[@deanleslie3269]

Never been a Kiss fan but time and again I've been a huge defender of albums by bands that are overlooked or misunderstood,or even hated,of which the elder seems to be. So my curiosity is peaked. These podcasts with you gentleman have been wonderful and this one is no exception. The Australian chap is a welcome addition to the group. Well done,everyone. Oh,I did see the Fridays performance when it first aired and I remember really enjoying it despite not being a fan of the band. Looking forward to the next show!

[@thecontrarians2438]

haha awesome! Thanks for watching!!

[@angusiha]

One thing that nobody mentioned about the sequencing of the album is that Mr. Blackwell was supossed to follow Dark Light. Listen closely to the very end of Dark Light and you'll hear that a very low end sound effect begins and that the exactly same sound is in the very beggining of Mr. Blackwell. Two other side notes: 1- Bob Ezrin plays bass on Escape From The Island. 2- Anton Fig (you know who he is) came with the idea for Dark Light. BTW: I love Dark Lights guitar solo; you can hear the guitar right in your face while Ace plays that awesome one-note solo.

[@thecontrarians2438]

good catch! its not the bas but i think ace could have dont better on one of his own songs

[@fajomojo]

Excellent point made early on, that the Elder has antecedents in some of the songs from the Gene solo album. Couple things worth noting: First, I'm obsessed with this album, and was a huge kiss fan in my tween and teen years, so am surprised to have never heard this claim made already:"The Oath" is arguably their first real metal song (I suppose "Black Diamond," "Parasite," a couple other tracks from Hotter Than Hell, and the live versions of "God of Thunder" might pass for metal, but) "The Oath" introduces Kiss with the double bass, which a few on the panel rightfully mentioned, and the "chugga chugga" guitar playing style I think is called sweep picking (which started in some of the NWBH bands I believe). One the most interesting (and not necessarily flattering)things about the Elder is that it's like a prog album, but I think we can tell that they weren't listening, certainly not deeply, to any of the great prog bands of their time. They pulled these songs out of their butts and vague ideas about conceptual music--and Ezrin's extensive knowledge of the history of western music. For that Kiss, especially Paul, deem the Elder as a pretentious album. But I think on the contrary, it reflects a naive brilliance. They didn't know what the hell they were doing and they tried something different. "Under the Rose" is like in a 13 time signature, and in terms of sonics that chorus of amazing! The changes that take place in "Only You" just beautiful. Regardless of their subsequently stated ignoble intentions points of trying to woo critics, the album is so interesting at the very least, and Paul and Gene in their essentialist view of Kiss, and their personal feelings/memories can't remove themselves to explore the fruits of theis experimentation on the Elder. A couple of you made the point. about the drum sound being over all weak. So true! Being 40 years away from it, I'm tempted to call it 70s technology; the technology to make it a fuller sound was perhaps not easily accessible back in 81. But listen to Pink Floyd's the Wall (79). How did they get such a powerful drum sound? Then listen to the drum sounds on Peter Gabriel's 1980 third self-titled solo album, and Phil Colins' Face Value which came out in Feb. of 81. The one in PG's was an accident in the studio (interesting video on it her from VOX, basically talking about the sound of the 80s--the "GATED REVERB") Colins who was PG's drummer exploited it on Face Value, and it took another year or too, before becoming ubiquitous on R&B and new wave of the 80s. And metal? Bringing me to Creatures of the Night, what a powerful drum sound. I'm pretty sure it's not using that new technology. The drums are dryer, but still so powerful. Love to hear a conversation about that album. Thanks for the discussion.

[@carle9924]

I love this album one of my favorites Kiss albums 8.5/10

[@mintyfresh4987]

As a lifelong "glory days" Kiss fan, I had avoided this album. After digesting your discussion I listened to the whole thing for the first time, I can honestly say that I really enjoyed it more the Dynasty or Unmasked. The variety was refreshing, and as a prog fan I feel that there is nothing wrong with this from the "concept album" standpoint. An interesting companion to "Destroyer."

[@Carlos-xz3vi]

A muddy concept with bloated arrangements does not make a prog rock record. Unmasked is a great pop record, with great melodies. Elder is just a total turd.

[@jayjaytee9944]

I agree, it was an attempt to extend upon Destroyer, they tried to not make the same mistake again by going for World Without Hero's, hoping to replicate the success of Beth imo. Maybe I'm the only one but I reminds me of Waterloo by ABBA. I'm an Elder fan and it ranks as a Top 5 album for me.....but I didn't always think that way.

[@jackaholic667]

My absolute favorite KISS album, top 50 (or so) albums of all time too.

[@TheChadTI]

"I" is just Do what you want to do " from Thin Lizzy

[@JIF882]

Never thought of that before

[@rendumen]

Love it!! Masterpiece ahead of its time 🤘

[@kevinkaatz883]

Ask coach, 2rd row - center square, If I can go in and play?

[@infernicide666]

I’m totally pro Elder!!! My second favorite Kiss album next to Creatures of the night. It has a proto power metal song insofar as The Oath which could have easily fit on Creatures of the night. Under the rose is awesome as is A world without heroes.

[@paulharper9711]

Hated this album when it was released. I REALLY like it now. I actually love “Escape From The Island.” It is a solid hard rocker that gets me pumped up. I think people view this as the first one with not all original 4 members at a time when Kiss was dying out anyway and those affect it. Yes, it is far from among their best, but I think it’s a really good album and much better than Crazy Nights, C.O.S & Gene’ 78 solo album by far.

[@thecontrarians2438]

Yes i agree its better than Gene's solo album even though i said it sounds like a sequel to Gene, i guess what i meant was it reminds me of it in that its eclectic and not really a KISS sounding record, also its very Gene heavy

[@terrytheman3317]

Who rears the ship through the stormy sea?? YOU GUYS DO!!! CHEERS!!

[@thecontrarians2438]

haha thanks! you’re the man!

[@FlashBastard1964]

Who STEERS the ship... holy shit.

[@Drumdude74]

The Oath & I are both classics for me, great heavy tunes, Dark Light is a good song too, A World Without Heroes, lots to like on the album but some stuff wasn't as good as others, just a matter of personal opinion is all, everyone likes something different. Good video guys!

[@thecontrarians2438]

Thanks!!

[@guillaumechabason3165]

Odyssey is my favorite Kiss song of the whole catalogue...

[@thecontrarians2438]

wow! You're both quite contrarian!

[@ToddEvans1964]

@@thecontrarians2438 I don't know if Greg is just kidding, but I actually like Crazy Crazy Nights too! **hides behind keyboard**

[@ToddEvans1964]

@Greg's Retro Channel 2 I love Crazy Crazy Nights! But I do chuckle a little when Paul says "Here's a little song for everybody out there!" From that album I also like "My Way," "Reason to Live" and "Turn On the Night." This channel is called "The Contrarians," right? 😁

[@edwinvandenkieboom5735]

You could almost make a double album when you include: Nowhere to run, Magic Touch, Journey of a 1,000 years, Mr Make Believe, Man of 1,000 faces...

[@aidenswords5809]

When i read reviews of album in 80s i always thought it wos a soft sort of operatic prog effort from the articles by the music journalists, but when i bought it and played it i realised it wos the same as other kiss material, heavy metal pure and simple, those experts must have been listenin to different record

[@edguygz7889]

I dig the elder. Dark light is fantastic. Escape the island is a instrumental gem plus the oath is phenomenal

[@terrytheman3317]

"I" should've been a monster hit. It's one of the greatest KISS songs of all time. And Under The Rose is an underrated gem

[@anthonymatis2977]

The Oath and Just a boy should of Been Huge hits also Under the Rose is a amazing song and world without hero’s is awesome.. The album is perfect

[@jackaholic667]

I pestered my local KISS tribute band into playing 'I' - they slay it!!! Love that song (whole album)!

[@JIF882]

As a Prog fan, I love this album. As was mentioned in the video, The Elder is just Destroyer part 2. I actually think that the preferred sequence(the 1997 remaster) makes the album. To the person that mentioned that Ace seems uninspired, apparently he wasn't on board with the record, and did his parts in his own studio. So, he may have taken some substances. I didn't think that Mr. Blackwell was about that guy. If Kiss wants to write a diss track, let them. As for chessy lyrics, may I offer "I am the incubus, I lay the egg in you" or "let me put the log in your fire". Total cringe. As for the comment slamming Bob for using session musicians, in the case of Sweet Pain on Destroyer, Ace was asked to redo the solo, but couldn't be torn away from his poker game. So, perhaps that Bob felt that Carr couldn't get the right feel for I at the time, but could have learned it later. I dig Paul's falsetto vocals on Just A Boy.

[@joebecht5554]

Here is the much talked about Friday's show. This is only The Oath. They played 3 songs in total. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHKsf5qErrFgbdk

[@thecontrarians2438]

I watched this as soon as we wrapped!!

[@IraSiegel]

I remember when this aired.

[@parishofrock2963]

Enjoyable show & a great debate. I liked The Elder at the time & was really excited as I thought it was a film sound-track (like Queen & Flash). So imagine my disappointment when there was no film. Now though, I’m not so keen. Rarely listen to it. Much prefer Unmasked & Creatures (albums before & after). PS: Having watched this video I am going to listen to it again & see what I think.

[@thecontrarians2438]

I actually much prefer Unmasked, but im a little contrarian that i think creatures is a little overrated, albeit it is better than elder... so ya i pretty much agree with you

[@IraSiegel]

I love The Elder. Have always found the black sheep albums in a catalog extra interesting too. 🚪 🖐🏻

[@martythemusicmonster6772]

Where I am from Australia The Elder did good album went to 24 on national charts and the single I / the oath went to no 11 on national charts .

[@peteygemini60]

Great album the initial problem though was the record company put it out with the track listing in the wrong order which immediately ruined the story.

[@j.j.4150]

Great discussion!

[@thecontrarians2438]

Thanks!!

[@averyteplitsky885]

Bob Ezrin was definitely on the wrong kind of artificial sweeteners during the making of this album, absolutely no doubt about it! Any Way You Slice It, the idea of Kiss as New Romantic heores, vis-a-vis the video for A World Without Heroes is beyond priceless! Gene Simmons crooning sensitively in a cape is a visual for the ages, and it least his former girlfriend Cher did an okay cover of it about ten years later! First exposure came via an over-priced import cassette in late 1987, and it was the last of the albums released up until then required for a complete collection. The somewhat abrupt change in musical direction seemed kinda odd, as at that time the band were in the middle of their Unmasked Spandex and DayGlo Hair Metal period, my Contrarian fave, lol! However, now I just look back at it more like Paul Stanley unknowingly made an unsolicited public demo tape for his future AL Webber stage shenanigans!! Two more quick things: I wonder if Lou Reed ever looked back on his co-writes on this album and wished that he had collaborated on Destroyer instead? And am I only the furtive Broadway fan with long-dormant desires of performing Odyssey in some hidden, low-key Karaoke joint, sober?!?

[@thecontrarians2438]

great points! This is kind of a follow up to a patreon exclusive we did where we talked a bit about Lou Reed's involvement in the record. I wish i still had my Elder Cassette! I had Killers too on Cassette!

[@averyteplitsky885]

@@thecontrarians2438 Loved the new tracks on Killers, also an expensive import back in the day! And if memory serves, the volume on those import cassettes was not always of the highest quality, and Polygram cassettes were often of a lesser quality in general, especially the double-length ones, which would have only been an issue for their INNUMERABLE legion of live and compilation albums!

[@JIF882]

I remember an interview with Gene Simmons which did imply that Bob was on something at this time

[@averyteplitsky885]

@@JIF882 I think that the absolute nadir of B. Ezrin and his substance abuse issues occurred in the recording and the aftermath of his, ahem, so-called production of the DaDa album from Alice Cooper in 1983. He seemed to be back on track a year or so later based on his stellar work on About Face from D. Gilmour...

[@pjones8404]

I discovered Kiss in 1974 and like many my age, got in actual fights defending Kiss against all their enemies and detractors. However, once Dynasty came out especially the single "I Was Made For Loving You" , defending them became a much more difficult proposition. Unmasked was even worse. Then the final straw dropped in the form of "Music From the Elder". Unlistenable. There were way too many other bands that were crushing what Kiss was doing! I am also going to say, I don't care when it was released. It would have BOMBED after Destroyer and would have killed the band earlier than what happened. You must remember, fans didn't like "Destroyer" when it was first released. And while "Beth" pushed it sales wise, fans weren't feeling stable with Kiss until "Rock and Roll Over" came out and reaffirmed them at the time. Why do you think Rock and Roll Over came out so quickly??? Had "Music from the Elder" been released after Destroyer, career over! "Creatures of the Night" was spectacular. But that was way too late to save that sinking ship. Oh my goodness..."The Wall" and "Tommy" are crystal clear as to the story and the characters. And when the artist themselves hate it......I just believe them. It just plain sucks. Metallica and Lou Reed was "creative" but that sucks as well!

[@thecontrarians2438]

thanks for the comment! I wish i had you on my side in the discussion! Im a bit younger of a fan so i basically came in when they were the "it" thing again in the 90s, and was able to go back to discover any albums from their catalog at any point up till then,, so getting it all at once, i wasnt so bummed out by Dyansty-Unmasked-Elder etc but even still i never put them in the same category as KISS-Hotter Than Hell-Rock and Roll Over etc

[@pjones8404]

@@thecontrarians2438 WHEN you discover a band makes all the difference in the world. If "Lick It Up" was your Kiss album..it is a very different experience for someone who was there from the beginning or came in around say.."Unmasked". If "Dynasty" was your introduction to Kiss..."Music From the Elder" isn't as huge a change as it was from someone like me. It just didn't work on ANY level and never will for me.

[@muziktrkr]

KISS was being "theatrical" - but KISS is a theatrical band. Lou Reed "Berlin" (most depressing album ever) is also a concept album and flopped big time, so for Ezrin this was probably deja vu, now it's considered a "classic album". When Alice Cooper tried to branch out and try something different (after he fired his band), was hit and miss. I like the album, it's just a half baked story like Lamb Lies Down on Broadway - it's the musicianship that salvaged the album. Paul grew up on Broadway shows, Gene grew up on sci fi so I get what drew them to doing this. It needed the artists from "Heavy Metal" magazine to do a graphic novel (like Neil Gaiman did for Coop when he did "Last Temptation"). I don't think Paul's vocals are bad, but "try hard". This needed a Jim Steinman or an Andrew Lloyd Webber, but Ezrin, Simmons and Stanley' concept fell flat. I like the album, it has its moments, I don't feel like I wasted money on it like I did a few of their other albums.

[@arturodouglas2484]

Hi Bicycle Legs, I too wanted to go see Kiss at Lang Park here in Brisbane but wasn't allowed too because I was only 8 at the time, lol

[@purpletemple1]

Fantastic album. I've loved it from the get go, even if I should have hated it and I disliked the cover art. "Odyssey" is one of their greatest track, and Simmons 's tracks are gorgeous and soooo dark. The only downer is " A World without Heroes" (why did they pick it as a single is beyond me!).

[@edguygz7889]

What that song is fantastic

[@SWEETFA24]

The Oath and I would fit in well in Kiss live shows. I'm Pro Elder.

[@p.g.7974]

I like that Australian guys take on I. I love I. Lyrics cheesy. Snaps definitely cheesy. Love that song and when I played it with my band I tried so many different sounds to replace them. Not a fan of The Elder tho. I'll listen to I and World Without Heroes tho but that's about it.

[@Reader-Copy]

It's the fuzzy focus of THE ELDER that lags. If they'd gone into it with 4-5 stronger tracks it could have been a success. You could blame several other factors, but what ultimately sunk this album was Gene's lack of vision. Dynasty and Unmasked albums alienated so many fans, like somebody said, what did they have to lose by putting out a record that wouldn't be widely heard?

[@GrootsieTheDog]

Kiss would have to be one of those bands (and maybe this would make a good topic) that I loved when I was a kid and in my teens (I hung out with Paul for a little bit in a bar when I was 14 years old at the rotating Mecca bar in Milwaukee) and don’t like or respect as an adult. There are a few great songs that I can still dig over the span of their catalog but in general, I fall on the side of most music critics that are pretty critical of kiss - which is to say, they increasingly became a more gimmicky band that made a lot of bad career choices that veered further and further away from the music.

[@kevinkaatz883]

Mr. Blackwell was a fashion critic

[@drumwolf100]

There’s no way to adequately compare XTC or Dukes, to Kiss. I grew up a huge Kiss fan but XTC song writing often approaches brilliance - Kiss was never brilliant, unless you consider marketing a musical attribute. Kiss was actually like a big cartoon with not much musical craftiness, almost like an attempt at a serious Spinal Tap. I do however this Ace is a great guitar player.

[@thecontrarians2438]

I wouldn't say they were like a joke like spinal Tap but I can agree with some of your points, they definitely became very cartoonish!

[@johansoderberg6546]

Easily their best record.

[@aidenswords5809]

One of them anyway

[@streamer_services]

Ezrin said it best......I was high on coke every day and the elder is more of an Ezrin album more than it is a Kiss album......Ezrin tryin to do a The Wall again Is what it seems like to me.

[@inmyhouse11]

Kiss Meets the Phantom should be the next topic of discussion or why Peter Criss solo album was absolute trash

[@thecontrarians2438]

haha would love to do a Meets the Phantom discussion, peter criss i like too much to talk about his solo album!

[@iancocks9408]

Kiss meets the phantom oh boy, hilarious and cheap, good concert scenes (would have been great if full concert released). Peters album I don’t listen to, I consider it worth paying the money for the artwork in vinyl and CD, that’s all haha.

[@edguygz7889]

I don’t think I is so bad

[@edguygz7889]

I mean dark light is about a presence a demonic figure ace sang it perfectly cmon Marco 🍺🍺

[@thecontrarians2438]

haha i think he could have put a bit more effort into it but ya i was really trying to stick to one side, and i dont hate the Elder!

[@edguygz7889]

Killed kiss in their hometown nyc as well

[@williamgainford9332]

While i admire kiss for taking chances - but as a kiss album it makes zero sense!!! - it would be like ac dc releasing a prog or krautrock record - there,d b a mass revolt - fans like a certain thing from their bands - i quite like the record tho - if styx released this it wouldve been huge lol - it shouldve been a side project and not called kiss!

[@thecontrarians2438]

having read that, i agree... but id love to hear a prog rock ACDC record still!!

[@williamgainford9332]

@@thecontrarians2438 itd b something else alright lol

[@edguygz7889]

I don’t need no money don’t need no fame no

[@kevinkaatz883]

Hey, leave Unmasked alone - Kiss writes great disco/pop songs

[@thecontrarians2438]

I love unmasked!

[@Carlos-xz3vi]

The Elder is a horrible album. This is not Kiss being “creative”; this is a band with no vision, and members infighting, with producers telling them how great they were individually and what they should do. When a band experiments, it comes gradually and organic; think Rush 80’s era. Since Permanent Waves you started listening to hints that that’s where they were going. I am appalled that some of those guys namechecked Tommy and Quadrophenia…seriously???? Regardless if you know what Tommy or Quadrophenia are about, those albums are epic and the songs are masterpieces. If you want Kiss “doing different” and still somewhat good, Unmasked it is, because Kiss could have gone power pop since day one. But Elder is a total piece of garbage by all accounts.

[@thecontrarians2438]

I agree with you on Unmasked, i like it a lot more than Elder

[@Carlos-xz3vi]

@@thecontrarians2438 Thank you. Just found out about your channel. Great channel and great discussions.

[@thecontrarians2438]

@@Carlos-xz3vi Thanks!!!

[@kevinkaatz883]

Songs get stuck n ur head, huh?

[@billhewlett1214]

Why????

[@thecontrarians2438]

why not!

[@BigSwifty500]

KISS' best albums = Bob Ezrin

[@vinylrec]

Bob certainly knew what to do with Kiss..I agree!

[@jafl2183]

I loved it