The DANGEROUS DURANGO (Random Stall, No-Start?)

[@donjackjohn]

I owned a brand new 2004 Cadillac SRX and installed a "K&N" air filter in it. For years I kept taking it back to the dealer because it would randomly loose power during acceleration, etc. After several dealers and several appointments they had the GM master tech come out from HQ to diagnose. Turns out the oil from the air filter coated the sensors in the throttle body resulting in poor performance. Sometimes the car is just good BONE STOCK. You don't need these aftermarket components that promise 0.5% more horsepower.

[@gtemnykh]

Lesson learned!

[@abdul-kabiralegbe5660]

Wow. They had to call the final boss to diagnose it.

[@tetttettamilli6761]

@DonJackJohn - So the aftermarket K&N didn't void the warranty? Obviously, that K&N use "special" oil - silicone added,nor some of that, over time, causes all sorts of electrical gremlins?

[@jmaxim80]

I agree with you. As a bright-eyed young man, I used to put all the so-called fancy gizmos on my vehicles, and then as I got older and did actual research, I stuck with all oem parts. The only exception I would put to that is Gale Banks, but I've never owned a diesel before. And I know he makes items for gas engines also, but I've never had one of those models either. But I would trust the parts he makes from the research I've done.

[@Guillotines_For_Globalists]

I agree with you - K&N filters claim to be sensor safe but I cannot see how that can be because if you've ever worked in a vehicle with a K&N oiled filter you know how oily that intake tube is. It worked fine for me with my 1995 Jeep Cherokee because there is no MAF sensor, but to top it off, K&N filters are relatively unneeded and unnecessary for the majority of drivers who aren't racing! K&N high-flow are snake oil. I've cleaned neglected MAF sensors with the proper MAF cleaner and have felt the vehicles wake up performance wise, sometimes it was so bad that the transformation was day-and-night.

[@happy543210]

Removing the k&n garbage is the best advice.

[@philjerome9795]

Years ago, a very good tech told me to do a throttle body cleaning whenever dealing with an idle or stalling issue. That advice has served me very well over the years.

[@GregFeeney392]

Old school tricks still fix modern cars today.

[@richardspees841]

Had a friend that her job required very dependable transportation that had a 2012 Durango (lease) and she had this issue of stalling starting 3 weeks after she purchased. It was back to the dealer several times, and she had to get a lawyer involved in order to get Chrysler to buy the vehicle back. She got a Toyota 4 Runner and had no issues and has been leasing those since then.

[@jmaxim80]

Smart move on her part

[@bob3k-ig9sj]

Problem is Chrysler cars 🚗

[@maxhenry1977]

Way back i bought a k&n filter for my 98’ sierra. I decided to clean it one day. After cleaning i grabbed the oil and started that process and i got to thinking, “hmm, is there enough oil on it? Is there too much? I wasn’t sure. To little oil and it won’t filter properly. Too much oil and it could gum up the maf and throttle body. I threw it away and installed a re-usable but non oiled filter and never had a problem. The only filter that should get oiled is a foam filter for a dirt bike or atv, imo.

[@adotintheshark4848]

one that has a carburetor

[@carlfitzpatrick9233]

Quick personal experience. Jeep 2014 2.0L with a very lazy P0171. Vehicle finally went limp mode, torn down, found the following: PCV Valve failed (open pinion), flooded the intake with oil, Throttle Body TPS sensors destroyed by "snapping" closed throttle when entering limp mode, oil soaked MAP sensor, destroyed, intake gasket and manifold (plastic) shrank and was not properly torqued to head, so there was a lot of problems. The intake gasket was so loose that it was allowing air to transfer between cylinders (at times), but not setting codes. Everything is fine since repaired and replaced parts. Throttle Body, MAP, PCV, Gasket, Torqued and sealed, etc. Thanks Ivan for all the hard work, you do a great job, lots of people watch you and are amazed, so am I!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

That's a crazy failure!!

[@05c50]

I was a little surprised that after the initial scan that you seemed to ignore the codes related to the throttle position. After your conversation with the customer and then the engine stalling when you were parking, that was the "ah ha" moment. One of the facts that I've always tried to decide with the help of the owner, is does it "stall" or "shutoff"?, the difference being throttle position. Good job on the diagnosis and repair. Great that you stuck with it. As an aside, I've always been surprised by the fact that the OEM never saw fit to have their electronic systems monitor fuel pump signals. How hard would it be to have a code for loss of fuel pressure and loss of fuel pump current?

[@user-pq9ji7kt4l]

Nice comment!

[@FixthisCD]

I know, I was yelling at the screen. Problem is when you let the customer's history determine your thinking. Happens to everyone

[@peetky8645]

good points

[@alansoccer2003]

My thoughts on the first no start on a cold Christmas is the throttle blade got stuck in the bore because of the aluminum shrinking slightly 🤷🏼‍♂️ my only guess

[@R3YNZ]

I had a similar case in the shop. 2011 Chrysler Pacific T&C. Intermittent Stall but no codes. Saw the TIPM under hood and I thought well here goes another failed TIPM. It was hard to duplicate but when I finally did realized it never lost power to fuel pump. Don't remember how I got to the conclusion but replaced the TB and all was good. I just remember thinking I was close to replacing that TIPM lol.

[@lvsqcsl]

This reminds me of my cousins 1975 Ford Granada with the 4.1 liter in-line 6. The thing would just stall; you might be in a turn and need to quickly shift to neutral and operate the starter to maintain power steering to complete the turn. HIs wife wasn't impressed. We checked everything we could think of: fuel pressure, electronic ignition, etc. Finally my dad said to remove the carburetor, so I did. He disassembled the ol' Carter YF carburetor and he took out the needle-and-seat and licked it, literally. We put the thing back in and reassembled the carburetor and that car never died again. We got lucky just like you did. GREAT VIDEO!

[@fieldsofomagh]

For any idle complaint, the first low tech solution must be a clean throttle body. The danger these times is to start "Hi Tech" and work way down to "Lo Tech" A building construction always begins at base level and so should diagnosis. Nobody had the common sense, previously to do the normal checks and balances. Congrats on a successful outcome and not excluding the basics.

[@closertothetruth9209]

thats what i found amazing, i know time is money , but i check those things for my own peice of mind

[@user-pq9ji7kt4l]

I love these videos where you go through the thought process of troubleshooting. Been in electronic service over 40 years. Diagnosing intermittent problems was the most challenging but also the most rewarding repairs.

[@MarzNet256]

Excellent diagnosis. Here's my thinking: The engine is closest to stalling when at idle, and that there is some threshold that must be crossed for a stall to occur. The relationship between the throttle position and amount of air flowing is non-linear, so a small percentage change in TP can produce a larger percentage change in air volume. The system is therefore able to cross the threshold into stalling because the TP cannot compensate properly (due to dirt in TB in this case) to prevent stall when you take your foot of gas at low rpm with some load. Also, I wonder if a non/poorly serviced oiled K&N filter might exacerbate the problem by reducing air-flow.

[@clintprice2123]

Further proof that k&n is not worth it and has negative effects that you pay for when buying it. I change my air filter once to twice a year and don’t have to deal with cleaning and oiling it. The only winner with k&n is K&N. Nice job Ivan! The scenery in this video surrounding your house is amazing.

[@gtemnykh]

Well said. A false economy with these k&ns

[@mph5896]

I am very surprised on how little an air filter is changed. MY mom bought a new car in 2019, and has it serviced at a local tire dealer. 3.5 years later I did a service on it and it has the original air filter in it. It was absolutely filthy. I have seen this on many other cars as well.

[@farmermiyagi1338]

Putting a micro-relay on the TIPM was one of the worst ideas ever. That's too much current for a micro-relay. I have bypassed several of them myself.

[@yodead369]

If you’re investing your money in a Chrysler product. You’ve already failed yourself.

[@31terikennedy]

But that wasn't the problem and Chrysler took of the problem TIPM.

[@xanderlander8989]

I just don't get it...why would an engineer put a mechanical relay in the tipm? Why not go solid state and use transistors? Or, here's a thought, replaceable relays like every other car ever....

[@31terikennedy]

@@xanderlander8989 Wasn't that the recall fix?

[@flinch622]

That was my reaction at first, so I kept watching. There is a reason to employ a pilot relay in some cases. #1 is voltage change - typically an integration move for automation incorporating disparate things like...a 24v PLC system monitoring devices already built/in service such as steel mill controls or what have you. Not the case with a vehicle, obviously. #2 would be to reduce wiring needed for higher amperage devices: either routing considerations [on account of interference], or limit costs. For a car, I would only think to do this as part of a master relay/lockout design, such as overrides needed to allow cranking the engine regardless of normal running inputs being absent [oil pressure, crank trigger, etc] with a short timer to prevent tripping codes. But still...for this Durango it seems they had an aneurysm. "silicon contamination of relay contacts"? I have worked on a bunch of IP65 equipment over the years and cannot explain how they managed to do this to themselves. Years ago, I had a vehicle mimic the symptoms here - if the engine up was to temp it stalled out [roughly] coming to a stop, but only sometimes - turned out the MAF sensor was going bad. No codes thrown after restart on any occasion. Replaced that sensor and all good.

[@erwinallen2309]

I had a random stall in a car once. Everything was good most of the time, fuel pressure would drop to zero when it didn't. Every time I was checking it out all was good. So replaced fuel pump twice checked wiring nothing seemed to work.finally took a very close look at the fuse which checked good before. It had a hairline crack which when heated would separate and shut off the fuel pump but then would cool and turn it back on. Replaced it and all was well.

[@jackpatteeuw9244]

I am not a fan of the K&N filter system either for two reasons. 1) It requires service/cleaning much more often than a paper filter. 2) They are known to interfere with MAF sensors, especially if they are over oiled or dirty. Few people know, but in the late 50s/early 60s many auto manufacturers used a system similar to the K&N. They stopped using it because customers would not properly maintain it and even on carbureted engines, the restricted air flow caused problems.

[@brainndamage]

K&N filters suck (all brands that copy the same oil-soaked mesh design). It doesn't filter enough so it lets fine dust and sand through which not only wears out the engine but covers the intake system in dirt. Like you saw here. It will also dirty the MAF sensor.

[@Hernandez530]

That code “p2111 electronic throttle control unable to close” was key. Nice Diagnosis 👍

[@robertlacob8831]

The first thing I notice when opening the hood is any after-market parts! The K&N air filters are known to provide oil on the throttle bodies by their design. And you know that the system must be kept clean and dry! I 've had a few MAF sensors covered with oil and a few TB filthy from high mileage. Not changing an overdue air filter only forces more dirt into the TB causing idle and stalling.

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

He sent it to you with a FULL TANK OF FUEL ⛽!!

[@volvo09]

Rare! Usually it's on E when you need to drive it 😂

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

@@volvo09 I know, right!

[@markg7666]

I work for a large fleet and we had the same issue with other models with the same design, but something we found is the pins on the fuel pump connector back from their usual place making false contact and cause the same issues than the relay, changing the pigtail with the pump and the relay mod is usually the final solution. Is a Chrysler, can’t expect perfection.

[@markmalikowski4971]

Absolutely crazy! Amazed that simple cleaning did the trick. With carburated cars, that was usually a problem, but never thought that it would happen in EFI car. Well done Ivan!!

[@TwisteeTheDefiant1]

Yep in some efi cars that use drive by wire if something's not right with the throttle blade it'll either not start or start up and run a default idle and become unresponsive to throttle pedal inputs cars without drive by wire you'd just get either stalling or a high idle.

[@malibuman8941]

Same thing. Low rpm. No air would stall it

[@TexasEngineer]

Yes, crazy. I would have tried ether to see if it would restart. Had an 88 Ranger with a similar issue. Had spark and fuel pressure on the rail. It would start and run on ether but die. Leave it alone and it would start an run fine until a week later. I junked the truck.

[@MrKingdavis13]

I had a similar issue with a Jeep Liberty or Patriot where the intake air temperature sensor was getting a bad ground which caused it to say the air was like 450 degrees F and shut the engine down after a few minutes of run time. Someone had moved a ground wire and actually bolted it to the plastic intake so it had no ground at all. The sensor had to be replaced after relocating the ground to the firewall but ran fine afterwards which made the customer very happy since it was to several garages before I worked on it. Sometimes the smallest issues are the hardest to figure out.

[@yodead369]

The smallest issue was on a dealer sign that said GM! 😂

[@keltecshooter]

Its wonderful to get as much of a detailed history however it needs to be put into a timeline of repairs vs specific symptom . Driving with the scope to rule in or out a particular component is very important. It's easy to get sidetracked when you have so much data out of perspective. Your approach was spot on and common sense. Nice job

[@cthorn2467]

My son had the same problem on a 2005 Dodge ram 1500 ,5.7L it would stall randomly then start right up and be fine. we did the same thing you did , clean the throttle body, never had an issue with it again. Of course we didn’t track it with a OBD tool and do what you did to prove it had to be throttle body, Keep up the good work.

[@moo3993]

I had a problem with a Delphi pump that I chased for awhile. Intermittent stall, only after driving while under heavy engine load. I had just replaced the pump so I ruled that out being the cause. Ended up being the pump overheating and stalling, would restart sometimes right away, other times after 30 minutes. Interesting stuff electronics are lol

[@jamespn]

Get rid of the K&N (Kendra and Natalie) air filter, no trouble codes, clean the throttle body, no more parts cannon, no more 10 hours interstate tow bill. Nice work Ivan.

[@W8iHav2P]

Kendra & Natalie? I don't get it?

[@jamespn]

@@W8iHav2P that’s hat K&N stands for, according to Eric O.

[@bruceirvine3962]

Been there done that (FS ECM Swap). Actual problem: passenger side large connection not tightened so as to actually make contact. Ha.

[@flatdaddio]

Great video Ivan. Those problems are hard to find!! I had purchased a used car. Someone had changed the fuel pump in my car before I bought it. Whoever it was should not work on cars. They only changed the pump not the assembly. They install a worm drive hose clamp to the fuel line but installed it to high on the barb. The hose partially slipped off and was leaking in the tank causing misfires after 10 miles, or after the car was parked for a short time. I thought it was a heat soak problem. I purchased a fuel pressure gauge and seen I only had 12psi and my fuel line was filling with air bubbles. I was surprised it ran at all. My neighbor who is a mechanic installed a new fuel pump assembly for me and the car has been running great since. You never know what you will find. lol

[@charlesjaeger7735]

In 2019 my daughter's 2010 mazda 3 was doing almost the same thing when coming to a stop. No aftermarket air filter. Stock air flow. Went on line and everyone said to check the throttle body for cleanliness. It was very dirty. Cleaned and ran perfect after that after it re-learned the TPS position. Only took about a mile to re-learn. Thanks internet and youtube.

[@JamesAgans]

So nobody did any maintenance on the throttle body for 9 years?????? Holy Moly. Has she ever changed the oil?????

[@rjm7168]

Throttle position went from 2.4% to 1.8%. That's a 0.6% change, or a 25% difference, so maybe not so insignificant.

[@reverendb-side916]

I have to argue with one of your statements. There are conditions that will cause the ASD relay to shut the engine down that will not set a code. I work for a technician assistance hotline and the first one of these I came across was a v6 grand cherokee that would intermittently stall only when stopped or during decel. The tech scoped the ignition signals and the asd relay control and found that every time the relay turned off was directly after #6 coil would fire. I advised him to move the coil #5 and the plug to #4 and the condition followed the plug not the coil. He replaced the spark plugs to resolve the incident. There were no codes setting no fishbites or misfires detected no glitches in the scope pattern for the coil no indication of what the pcm was seeing from this plug to shut the engine down. The relay shutdown event could bee seen and felt at higher rpm but it only made the engine stall at lower rpm. I have since seen several chrysler products have this same issue.

[@markminehan6778]

I had a problem with my wife's Hyundai ix35 SUV (200,000km) where it would fail to proceed after stopping at the lights.. the engine idled but would not rev or engage the auto trans from moving onward. I checked OBD2 codes with a cheap reader and found the Throttle Body motor current fault active.. a clean of the throttle body fixed the issue. Love your technical expertise and clear critical thinking.. its a refreshing change from the untrained technicians at the dealerships here in Oz, it appears nobody wants to invest time or fund quality training for our young mechanics.

[@NVRAMboi]

Thanks Ivan. Aftermarket parts sure seem like a good idea...until they don't.

[@zacharystewart1064]

This one was definitely an interesting one sometimes it’s just the basics that cause really intermittent issues. Just thinking aloud but perhaps given that it had an aftermarket filter coupled with a dirty throttle body that it was flowing too much or too little and would cause the pcm to freak out. Just powers grounds inputs and outputs. The pcm only knows what it’s being told and compared to stored info. Great diag as always and the no parts required solution

[@vgbr88]

Thanks for taking us along on this confounding test case. Once again, I learned something new. Awesome job.

[@theblackhand6485]

@Ivan: What about a dirty K&N filter? These have be maintained as well. Rinse it with their cleaning kit and re-oil the thing. Are the plugs and leads still okay? Measure the fuel pressure. Although it seems a thermal problem: Are the valves still closing? Secondary winding in the coils okay?

[@chrissmith7655]

Hi Ivan, on first DTC display 'Throttle Body fault' ??????

[@SuperBigdanno]

Had a very similar problem on a 96 ram and cleaning the throttle body and idle air control valve fixed it too. Dealer told me I needed to replace the common failure plenum gasket so I thought why not clean the throttle body first? Glad I did.

[@MrClipper500]

I feel your pain..... I have a G-body GM that use to stall when rolling up to a stop light or stop sign. For months I thought it was in the Ignition but it turned out being a sticky Torque Converter Clutch activation Solenoid. It would stick on while decelerating to zero MPH, stall and when the Transmission pump pressure went to zero the TCC Solenoid would release and the car would start and run normally. It was a mechanical fault and those antiquated PCM`s would not register a fault. Driving it on an icy road gave me a clue. At Idle just before the stall I felt a back wheel slip. Great Vid. I will never purchase a Chrysler Product.....

[@2491kridge]

I had his exact symptoms on the same exact car, another shop had already done the relay bypass and a replaced the fuel pump, only difference is the problem was a lot more frequent. What I found was the bulk connector going to the fuel tank, it’s Christmas treed onto the rear subframe, the pin for the ground side of the fuel pump in that connector was completely cooked and melting the connector so the fuel pump was loosing ground. I ended up cutting the wire on both sides of the connector and installing a male and female butt connectors. This was like a year or so ago and the cars been great ever since. I assume the original fuel pump is what caused the problem to begin with before it was replaced. If this customer ever calls you back saying the problem has returned I would recommend telling them to check that bulk connector

[@notsureigaf]

Not surprised if this does end up being the right fix on a car with K&N filter. Even though the TB didn't look that dirty it's possible the filter oil fouled up something in there related to idle air control. I had a similar problem on my 4.0 ZJ, random stalling with hard re-start when coming to a stop. Cleaned out the TB and IAC back in the spring, it hasn't stalled since. No K&N on mine, just 25 years without being cleaned, but it goes to show you it doesn't take much to stall the car in those situations.

[@kenwheeler6150]

Living in the UK if you can predict a warm day then buy a lottery ticket. When my friend who is a VW tech has a heat related problem he runs the car around to a mutual friend who has a paint and body shop. They put the car into the paint booth and turn the heat to max, with an extractor on the tail pipe he can run the engine for as long as it takes to fail. He says it works like a charm every time.

[@mikeafa1]

Hey Ivan, just wanted to share my experience with you about my 2013 chrysler 300S. At about 80,000 miles I thought my transmission was going. I had some hard down shifting from 2nd to first when stopping at a traffic light most times. Never had an issue with acceleration, just deceleration. I spilled and filled my transmission three times before i changed the expensive filter pan assembly which only improved things a little bit. Some time passed and @90,000 i decided to change the pcv valve and upper and lower intake gaskets. Lastly i cleaned my throttle plate and bore and whamo! Down shifting issued resolved! Throttle plate wasnt terrible but maybe just enough to keep the idle up high enough to cause the issue. It wasnt much but man it made a difference. The next week or two i changed all spark plugs and idle smoothed out even more and gas mileage improved by 3 miles per gallon.

[@ChrisWilliams-pu8pj]

Great job Ivan. Shows that you should not get stuck in the weeds and sometimes just go back to the basics.

[@uhkbkh-fc1ks]

29:55 TPS1 minimum volts and TPS2 minimum volts may be learned values. Perhaps those values need to be relearned to prevent stalling.

[@russellhltn1396]

Good job! I have to say that I'm sure there's a number of mechanics that are envious about the amount of time you get to spend on these kinds of problems. I guess that's the advantage of being self-employed. A wage-slave would have to take a guess and ship it.

[@TonyHecht-k9d]

Sitting here watching your video reminds me of Chrysler/Jeep product i had the pleasure of working on years ago. It was about '10-'14 vintage 4.7 grand cherokee. The customer had purchased new and was only serviced at our shop. Owner never had any issues with the vehicle. We performed 100k service which included spark plug replacement. We replaced with Champion plugs, which is what it had in it since new. Vehicle developed a very random stall condition that would happen any time and may actually go weeks with no problem. I spent countless hours trying to diagnose with no definitive direction. Ultimately we purchased OE Champion spark plugs from dealer and the jeep never had that problem again.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

That's insane 🤔

[@dorothydale4683]

on one of your videos you found a connector with a female pin that had little or no pressure on the pin. you squeezed the little receptacle and it worked. good video

[@donerickson1954]

what about dirty throttle body. I had that happen in a 2006 ford. que the next day and you think the same.

[@wazza33racer]

I had a car like that, would randomly stop on warm days when the tank was 1/4 or less. Just learned to keep the tank full. Was a 2002 GM/Holden Commodore, Buick 3.8 V6. Cars also idle poorly or stall when the MAF hot wire sensor is dirty.

[@annathemaanderson4448]

Seems like throttle plate inspection would be something onecwould do early on in the trouble shooting process?

[@pinecone01]

Having been a victim of mouse-chewed fuel pump wiring, I would have got under the vehicle and inspected wiring harnesses along the frame rails too, just to be sure.

[@ehsnils]

I have had some bad experience from those floating fuses that you can see at 8:06 - sometimes they pop out of their socket if the wiring moves around.

[@frankwebb7507]

Anyone who worked in electro-mechanical telephone exchanges in the 1970's - 1980's would have been aware of the paranoia surrounding silicone (not silicon) contamination of relay contacts, it was a very real problem especially with low voltages. Silicone is present in some coatings so heating or overheating can cause the release of silicones and they migrate readily. It's the first instance I have come across where a car manufacturer has raised this issue but then again soldered in relays in fuse box circuit boards are something new. I presume that because this car has a motor driven throttle that there is no separate Idle Air Control Valve as sticking or fouled IAC valves exhibit similar symptoms. As usual, an interesting and informative video Ivan, it looks like you need a multiple input compact A/D data logger with large memory that you can leave in the engine bay for days if need be and overcome the need to carry a Laptop computer around.

[@robbflynn4325]

Watching your videos reminds me not to be too bothered by the poor gas mileage of my 2004 Sequoia. Paid $4000. Owned it now for over 3 years. 179,000 miles. Bulletproof reliability, only thing I've done is basic maintenance. Have hauled and towed stuff, camped in it, and its 4WD has got me out of some very tricky situations.

[@davidkaminski615]

I also have an '02 Sequoia. I've had it 6 years and 100k miles. Radiator and alternator went out and replaced a cracked manifold and steering rack. Those are all the big issues I've had with it. Engine still buttery smooth with 360k on the clock.

[@map7463]

We also have a 2012 Dodge Durange, RWD. We've been dealing with this issue since about 2 years after we bought it new. The first recall bypassed the TIPM with with an Omron relay. That relay had a built in tab with hole for mounting. The connector would plug into the relay. After about 2 years with the Omron relay we started to have no starts. It has a push button start and would occasionally just crank but wouldn't start. Or it would start for a second then turn off since there was no fuel pressure. The relay contacts were not making contact at start up. If we cycled the ignition until we heard the fuel pump prime up, we tried starting it and it would start. I believe the relays that they have specified for this fuel pump are just not able to take the current. This would always happen only at start up. Once it starts it runs fine. We have never had the engine shut off on us once it's running. What I ended up doing is buying 10 relays from Digikey or Mouser for pretty cheap $3 to $4 each. Once the Durango started doing it too often, I"d replace the relay. After a few years they put out another recall that replaced the Omron relay. It took a year or so before they had the parts to do the recall. I found out online that they replace the Omron relay with a common Chrysler part number plug in relay that is used for headlightf on some applications. The 2nd recall installed a relay socket with cover. I didn't bother taking it to the dealer for that. I cut up the Omron relay, removed the internals and inserted the plug into the housing. I then just plugged in the new relay. That worked for a couple months but we have the same issue. Sometimes the contacts don't make good contact and the engine just spins but won't start. Once it does it too often I'll just replace it again. I know it is the relay because sometimes you can hear the fuel pump sputter when it primes up. I suspect you'll be hearing from the Durango owner again. Our Durango has 86k miles.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Geez what a pain. Why not just install a standard big 4 pin relay and call it fixed?

[@map7463]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I was hoping the new relay would have fixed the problem. The new relay has been on there for about 9 months. It occasionally has a no start. Does the coil resistance for a new relay need to have similar resistance to one of these other relays? Could this set a code if it's different? With this new relay, it's super easy to change out. Just pull if off and plug a new one in. The Omron and Chrysler relays both use a resistor for surge suppression. The Durango has been pretty reliable. Some issues here and there but it has never left my wife stranded. It gets decent mileage and handles well for a big SUV.

[@wolfgangweber9924]

I saw the K&N logo early in the video. My mind went oh-oh! I love watching your videos. I don't get into the electronics of our vehicles but you definitely raised my awareness related to electronic issues.

[@fordtruckguy5545]

The stall symptom and the codes on your health report immediately led me to throttle-related issues. My 2006 F-150 with the 5.4L 3-valve stalled out on me many years ago. I was driving about 55-60 MPH on a crosstown freeway and the truck stalled out at full speed. Luckily, I was able to get to the shoulder of the road (about 3 lanes over). The dash had lit up like a Christmas tree. I had my cheap code reader with me and found I had a stuck open throttle code. The truck restarted fine and I was able to get home. I left for the shop super early the next morning, so if it stalled out again I wouldn't have to deal with morning rush traffic. I checked my throttle body and it was very dirty. I cleaned it thoroughly, cleared the codes and have had no stalling issue since (that was about 4-5 years ago now).

[@IamDerick]

Surprising result. I would have went with the fuel pump. I have experienced weird fuel pump issues one nearly drove me insane until I bench tested it. It had normal prime, good pressure and none of the normal signs/readings that would make you suspect it except the intermittent sputtering/stalling. Even on the bench it looked good until I hooked it up to a push button switch and gave it momentary hits of power then held the button down and you could hear a ever so quiet anomaly (wah wah wah whisper quiet) for 30 seconds and it would clear up. If it wasn't dead quiet in the shop I would have even missed that. I replaced it, the car is still running. Curiosity got the best of me so I disassembled the pump motor and could see nothing remarkable. Needless to say this is a readers digest version of what happened and I believe I came up with some new profane words in the process. Still bugs me to this day. Enjoyed the video and could relate to the frustration.😎👍

[@RJTC]

Edit - does it have a vacuum controlled fuel regulator, that could be malfunctioning? Or a sticky air idle control valve - or sticking throttle body if that also does the idle regulation? --- I've seen silicone contamination on a pair of ignition points, many years ago - the owner used silicone grease on the distributer cam. With heat from arcing, silicone compounds can burn and degrade to silica, which effectively adds a insulating ceramic layer to part of the contacts!

[@josephplatero8738]

Same thing happens with my 12 R/T. Reached out to Dodge multiple times .. referred me back to dealer. Dealer won't touch because they want to be paid. I'm not paying for something dodge has known about. Replaced my TIPM as well.

[@GNX157]

Back in the mid to late 80’s while working at a Buick dealer, we had a lot of cars with stalling issues just like this. Mostly the new front drive park avenue, lesabre, century, anything with the 3.8 MPI engine and sometimes others, but MPI was in its infancy then. When a car would come in with this issue, one of the very first things we would do was a driveability report and scan, check and set the TPS, check and set the minimum idle speed, and clean the throttle body and plate. Almost every one of those cars was not perfect. One of the things that seemed to help beyond those fixes was to set the minimum idle speed to the upper limit of the spec, so even if the IAC ran all the way in (closed bypass air), the engine would have a chance to idle. I know newer systems are different now, but this issue has been around since the very early days of EFI.

[@AppalachianRancher]

I had exactly same symptoms in a 01 grand Cherokee started out as a single miss going down highway it progressed to intermediate stall no start. Drove me crazy trying to chase cause down yes tried parts cannon unfortunately. Eventually started looking for a bad ground. Found it with pcm mounting screws takes 3 screws with threads coarser than wood screws. Changed them out with 3 fine threaded bolts and sanded firewall to make good contact with pcm. Solved problem did happy dance. No problems in 175k miles

[@ALEX-xd7ko]

2:03 the gas tanks have a built in flip sensor that disables the fuel . Their are tsbs for it on some models but it happens on all models. I dunno how many of these I've done because the factory refuses that the tsb applies to this model

[@robertoruiz7069]

I like your view. Ivan didn't mention it,maybe because it's in the wiring he checked.I don't know,I'm still lost here.I have a Honda hatchback i bought new in 1994 and am having issue on hot starts.it's got 540,000 miles,so yes it lasted a long time.i'm thinking mine is a wire issue.gona check every wire to the pump this weekend.mine must have the shutoff.

[@TraceElements-ti5ke]

silicates usually come from the wrong lubricant from the relay mechanism. The silicates from the wrong grease volitize in the arc and stick on the silver contact. This happens many times and eventually insulates the silver point gap. This setup will continue to add more silicates and permanenty insulate the contact gap

[@robpeabo509]

I do hope the dealers take not of what independent repairers identify as successful diagnosis and repair and put it in their diagnostic trees, and issue alerts to these new findings. It can not only benefit the technicians, but ultimately the owners of the vehicles through effective diagnosis, repairs with the flow on being reduced repair costs and the return of a vehicle that is actually repaired first time. Great work Ivan.

[@PilotInCommand777]

I had a very similar issue years back with a 2010 Grand Cherokee. It was the IAC valve

[@stevemccormick4938]

Speaking of coils stalling an engine: Years ago on my ford ranger I would be driving along and the engine would just shut down. it would immediately restart. Finally looked under the hood when it was darker and found a leaky plug wire jumping to the main engine harness. Apparently the random leak was shocking the ecm and scrambling it. Super easy fix, not an easy diagnosis.

[@barryhipp3935]

I have seen a couple of this body style with crank no starts with a bad connection going to fuel pump. Connector is above the rear axle area . I believe connector gets water in it and builds heat and connection fails. Bypass power wire around connector

[@cyrexccc]

Great job again bro. Is cleaning the throttle body considered “cleaning the parts canon “? lol your notes and diagrams are awesome by the way. ❤

[@j.t.johnston3048]

I think the original problem was the fuel pump relay in the TIPM, which was fixed by the recall. Since they also had the throttle body issue, the stalls due to it at low speeds/idle were mistaken for being the fuel pump issue.

[@RussellBooth1977]

I have spoke about a similar problem with my great uncles stepdaughters 1997 model Ford EL Falcon which runs their Australian built 4 litre "thriftpower" inline six. An auto electrician wired In a new fuel pump relay for $280 AUD (rip off) which didn't Fix the problem. I replaced the ECU due to a split resistor which still had continuity through it but the problem was actually caused by a crappy 25 year old engine immobilizer/car alarm which had high resistance in it so I bypassed it by rewiring it back to how Ford wired it up at the factory. Over 1 year later it's still going no problems. It had the same issue where the problem was very intermittent until the engine stalled every time the car was placed into drive,she had it towed to my dads place where I could work on it. Believe me,I had a very difficult time finding the problem because it took 3 times for me to really nail the problem because I never gave up !

[@daancbr600]

I recently had a 2006 Explorer with the exact same symptoms. Occasionally appeared to have very minor interruptions in fuel control. Defective pcm. Was an interesting one!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Those Ford PCMs aren't the longest lasting. Leaking caps perhaps?

[@10100rsn]

Pink + Stripe color wires on Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram from late '90's up is usually a power feed from the ignition switch. It can even go through another relay and change to another Pink + stripe color.

[@boomer9900]

Intermittent stall, difficult. My experiences.. On a 86 Buick with 3.8V6, intermittent open circuit on MAF sensor intermittent stalling at low speed, like in intersections and parking. No codes. On a 86 Chevy 2.8 V6, intermittent stall slowing down was a sticking EGR valve, no codes. On my current Mustang 4.6L V8, KN airfilter oils up the MAF, gives system too lean code. Also on this car a dirty throttle body results in the computer not being able to bring the engine to normal rpm when stopping. I can notice this problem at the stoplights. No codes. Computers are fast and should be able to detect some of these conditions, but it's all in the software. A datalogger with a flash drive would be ideal to find these issues, but what to measure would be a problem.

[@Demoralized88]

Your Mustang almost definitely has a vacuum leak. MAF and MAP will read low at idle, especially under load in gear with low-rpm, rough idle and stalling when throttle is shut. Without knowing year, it could be IAC (cable TB) or electronic TB, which can make the symptoms/diagnosis slightly different. Pretty definitive symptoms on a MAF OBD2 engine if no other sensor data is significantly off. The 4.6 is notorious for intake gasket leaks, but the symptoms are always the same if air is getting in somewhere downstream of the MAF.

[@rodneymiddleton9624]

I hate those k&n setups. They will nasty up stuff. Thanks!

[@electron-1979]

I silicon spray contaminated my fuse box a few years ago. The relays fail randomly, sometimes after working for a few minutes. I'm guessing when the engine bay gets warm, something vaporises onto the relay contacts. After multiple relay replacements, I haven't experienced the issue

[@timgoble9891]

I had the same problem with my Durango the crank positioning sensor was bad but it would not set a code

[@davidturner4639]

Had same issue with a 2.4 jeep. Would do exactly the same thing when hot at low speeds. The hot soak after it did shutdown causes a crank no start. The ambient air temp was in the 90s when it happens. No code will be set. I have a feeling they will see the problem return in the summer.

[@CROFTY71]

hey Ivan I don't subscribe but I watch every new video you put out. I thought you may have done a cam crank relearn for the hell of it. and maybe followed up on them APP codes I really enjoy when you open up a part that has failed. just to see what broke. and what makes it tick 🇭🇲👍🤪🇭🇲

[@goodtimejohnny8972]

I had very similar code list for a 3.6 in a dodge Journey. The 3 wires on the crank sensor were melted together. The car ran fine cold but once up to operating temp would stall and be a no start. The other shops didn't look at crank sensor because it was labor intensive to get to. Entire exhaust and AWD system had to be removed to get to it. What led to the problem was the schematics. The throttle body ,crank sensor, throttle pedal and a few others were all sharing the same 5v reference. Everything I could get to checked out fine. Got approval to dismantle everything and installed new oem sensor and pigtail. All is good. It was giving codes on throttle system only because of shorted wires. Nothing was wrong with accelerator pedal or throttle body.

[@jerryking2418]

Who'd have thought. Interesting diagnostic.

[@major__kong]

I guess the lessons here are 1) check the basics 2) maintain your vehicle. Don't know anything about how the throttle is supposed to react, but it seems odd that there's no roughness as an indication - it just shuts off. Given those TPS codes, maybe you bought some time but the problem is still there.

[@jordysandino6577]

Great video again Ivan . Persistent pays off . Some times the little things can meant a lot . I think with your knowledge and experience it pay off . Please keeping teaching us . God bless you and your family brother.

[@guest9169]

I get the stalling part at low rpm, but how would it cause a crank no-start?

[@davidthomson4540]

I think maybe to different problems? Mine started out with the crank no start while traveling at speed, then more recently dying with restart no problem at idle in Drive. Doubt it is the Throttle Body, Just replaced mine and the accelerator pedal. No solution! I have been able to force the problem by having the engine to operating temp; stopped at idle in Drive; have every accessory on: Headlights, Flashers; AC with front and rear defrost on and fans on high, 110v power inverter. The only thing I have noticed is MAP increases as more load is put on, maybe this is normal? Will fail very quickly at nearly 100% Hello, Been chasing this same problem in 2011 Durango for 3 years. Backyard DIY Mechanic fix my own stuff. Dealer can't figure it out. I can not pay someone to keep guessing at it so try to figure it out myself. I have no scope equipment. Love watching your diagnostic skills. Does not seem to be fuel, I have pulled the fuel pump relay and the Auto Shut Down relay and symptoms are different. . Please call me to discuss more, story is just too long to leave here. David Thomson 208-827-3348

[@yodead369]

Not to mention those stupid KN filters are oiled. People don’t understand that it’s all over the mass airflow sensor and starts jacking up. Just not worth using oil filters.

[@dustcommander100]

That was tough!! Excellent persistence!

[@rhadden8976]

The customer stated this all started when it was very Cold, could ice in the fuel line cause damage to the id of the line? This could cause a very intermittent blockage. Maybe a dumb idea... thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge with us.

[@hollivincent3599]

I had the same problem. Replaced all o2 sensors, both throttle position sensors, the air intake sensor, the temp coolant sensor and rewired a camshaft sensor connector due to frayed wires. I replaced the after market fuel pump relay. Still stalls.

[@johnn4.6]

If anyone is still having this issue I just had a 16 durango with intermittent stalling and found there was a burnt/melted pin at the harness connector near the rear diff. I believe it was a blue/orange wire that supplies power to the pump. When it would get hot it would lose connection and be a crank no start. I ended up replacing the female pigtail and cleaned up the male pins, and replaced the pumps which may have been overkill, but no issues since. Definitely check that before you go down a rabbit hole of replacing parts if you have already had your tipm relay done and can’t figure out the issue.

[@patrickskaggs6034]

That was weird but sometimes you have to think out of the box good job.

[@CarlosAvellanet]

Though not a Dodge, my 06 F150 had the exact same symptoms to a T and it turned out it had a bad throttle body. I installed a brand new Motorcraft unit and it hasn’t failed since-about 6 years ago. Cleaning the throttle body did not help at all. It wasn’t until it was replaced that the problem went away.

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

Another weird case going Ivan's way! So, they replace a failed relay with a relay that fails in a way I never heard of - Silicon contamination in a mechanical relay? Where does the silicon come from? Is it a solid state relay that can't handle the load? Once you have to wait when it fails, could it be a temperature related problem? And just a dirty throttle body caused that intermittent problem... Wow! Great analysis, Ivan!

[@RJon2006]

Wow. I might have to check the TB on my 3.6 with 110k on it. That’s a pretty significant drop in % from a simple cleaning. Let’s hope it stays fixed! I need a Pico…and more ARs 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@AP9311]

Ivan, did you know after watching a study on KZbin, that MAF can be effected in aftermarket intake kit? It's the way they designed for specific factory make. Similar to the throttle body so dirty from the oiled-up intake. Thought I'd bring that out there. But I've seen couple cases studies of wrong kits when factory sensors don't work well

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

No MAF here 😉

[@AP9311]

@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I was not saying specifically this car, I was speaking in a broad sense. As one study showed from Banks explaining that.

[@nascarpj5723]

affected @@AP9311

[@Hybriddiag]

What a weird case...😮 great job sir

[@carltonlane8931]

Sometimes just a little muck some were,but there’s the skill,finding the muck.good video.

[@edchenal821]

One of the reasons I stick with OEM air filters and change them often. K & N filters allow too much foreign matter through the filter.

[@kiflak]

Used to have an '06 GM product and a dirty throttle body was preventing the car to start when hot unless pumping the gas pedal. After cleaning it everything went back to normal starting every time cold or hot no problem!

[@TossMySalad2]

One of the best starts to my Saturday morning. ,👍🏼

[@ak47black]

Hi there i have they same issue for my 2013 Dodge durango as well i have k&n intake, ripp coils, dealer change fuel pump, relay etc. But it does not work i'll try cleaning the body throtle and see what happens. Thanks