The Dark Lords of Tolkien: A Hopeless Conflict? | The Red Book | Episode 8

[@Pixis1]

Very well thought out. I hadn't considered that, from Sauron's perspective, Eru had abandoned Arda and the Valar were essentially powerless. It makes his actions make a lot more sense.

[@danieldeclue1466]

Yeah I had always wondered why Sauron had such big balls to try and take over when he knew that God was a thing. I figure it's one of those things like you realize in an instant that you aren't being supervised anymore, so you do something naughty, and then you do it again, and again, and again. And because nobody is either there, or willing to stop you, what else could you be expected to think besides I'm the last man standing this is my chessboard now

[@tdowell8615]

But eru hadn’t abandoned arda. Sauron saw with his own eyes numenor destroyed fairly recently in his life.

[@danieldeclue1466]

@@tdowell8615 God also completely reshaped the world when he did that and cut off the lands of Amon from the physical world. From Saurons Perspective, Numenors fall WAS Eru abandoning Arda

[@oliverflanagan6438]

All I can really say to this is how great it is to hear your thoughts on the similarities between Melkor and Milton's Lucifer

[@TheRedBook]

I'd love to do something a bit more in-depth with Paradise Lost/Sauron+Morgoth. But, I'd love to do a lot of videos so I guess I'll have to add it to the neverending pile of videos I want to make :D .

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@TheRedBook hey check out false god sosuke aiezin he’s like the devil and short summary the devil is idealist using realist words

[@rotwang2000]

@UCLknphbHnUgBEE4CIudBvPw Lucifer is the ultimate rebel against authority, Melkor is the guy who kicks the pot from the stove because he'd rather have nothing than share the soup with others.

[@ahouseofpomegranates4338]

i find this fascinating considering paradise lost was a banned book for catholics until the list was abolished in 1966

[@freeshrugs1]

One of my favorite passages from the Ainulindale: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' This is Ulmo, a being we could consider a god, learning for the first time, with an almost child-like innocence, just a small part of the will of Eru, and how evil and strife can be made good in the end. Thanks for this video. I love this topic.

[@yorktown99]

I am reminded of John Milton's "Paradise Lost". Milton wrote that he hoped to, "justify the ways of God to man." The main character is actually Satan, and describes his doomed effort to rebel against God. Milton describes it as a hopeless effort, since Satan has chosen to place himself not only in opposition to God, but arrogantly beyond God's forgiveness. Nevertheless, while Satan sees himself as acting in rebellion in order to pursue his own goals, Milton still portrays him as unknowingly carrying out the will of God. When it came to free will, Milton had God make this (remarkably Tolkienesque) argument: "I made them free and they must remain so, / Until they make themselves slaves: otherwise I would have / To change their nature, and abolish the unchangeable / Eternal high law which gave them / Their freedom; they themselves chose to fall. / The first group were led astray by their own ideas, / They tempted and perverted themselves..." It is a statement echoed in Feanor's refusal to surrender the Silmarils.

[@peatythyroid]

One thing I never understood- why would Sauron, who desired order over chaos, still follow Melkor so faithfully even after he made it clear his only vision of Arda was destruction and chaos? Did Sauron merely see Melkor as a means to an end of himself seizing power one day and enacting his own vision over the world, or did he truly believe, after everything, that Melkor still wanted to build a more perfect universe after he tore the existing one down?

[@sigilmedia]

I have to say, you explain these issues of the divine will, free will, and theodicy better than most christian theologians I've heard. I think it is a testament to the power of Tolkien as a writer and your fidelity and diligence as a reader and interpreter despite not sharing his beliefs.

[@TheRedBook]

Definitely a testament to Tolkien's writing abilities and a handy copy of his Letters! I certainly can't take all the credit for what I discuss in the videos. But I have always said I'm interested in the world he made and don't really get it when people bring their own views into it to criticise...but that's just me.

[@WiseOwl_1408]

Likely just can follow this better as it is attached to something you enjoy already. Less dry

[@rotwang2000]

I do find the idea that all options are accounted for fascinating, in that in Eru's plan there was room for Morgoth and Sauron to change at any time, even repent and try to do good at some point.

[@colindunnigan8621]

One does wonder what would have happened had Sauron just contented himself with exile, or even being content w/ the parts of Middle Earth he already controlled (assuming he still had his ring). Yet, restraint doesn't seem to be a tool in these knuckleheads' toolboxes.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@colindunnigan8621 they regard themselves as superior to others and tried to show it through large scale feats to make up Fir their limited power compared to eru who is infinite

[@Cat_Woods]

I dunno. To me that makes Eru pretty ignorant of basic psychology. It takes a really naive person to think that a malignant narcissist is just going to "repent and do good" without outside intervention.

[@rotwang2000]

@@Cat_Woods That would be modern writing, Tolkien wrote archaic tales, based on old legends and poems. Psychology doesn't count because characters are driven by plots and literary conventions. Characters fall prey to things like anger, hubris or too much love. At best you can interpret them as stories with bits of morality thrown in. One of the major themes in Tolkien is redemption even when some seem beyond redemption. Turin will be forgiven, even Feanor gets a pat on the head despite having caused quite a bit of misery for being such a wrong-headed a-hole without a reverse speed.

[@mbiker345]

fantastic work! I have always loved that Tolkien was a catholic and worked it into the world.

[@anglerfish4161]

A possible way to look at Eru and the Valar is to think of the later as multiple Demiurges that create the physical world based on what was conceived in the mind of the true God. The act of creation is valuable because it's Eru, the One, giving way to multiplicity in his various creations, but that means each Vala only knows part of the supreme mind and the Children of Eru even less so. I like this way of putting it a little more than the Valar as angels, because it emphasizes that Eru remains (for the most part) a transcendent being with limited direct participation, thus enabling Morgoth and Sauron's view that he abandoned the world, even though his thought and design pervades everything, even that which came about as a result of his creations' free will. He's not a god ruling heavenly hosts, but the original will that allows freedom to exist, but can't be escaped because there's nothing that can't be traced back to the source. This reading can also take Melkor and Sauron as parallels to the gnostic version of the Demiurge. Although both know of Eru's existence, they can still hope to rule the physical world, especially with it forever bearing the mark of Melkor's corruption. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Melkor probably believes the old "I licked it, now it's mine" kindergarten adage.

[@specialnewb9821]

Ironically because he better each Valar in their respective expertise in the beginning, Melkor probably was capable of seeing Eru's thoughts most completely. Of course his own hubris and self absorption means he would never take the time to do it.

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

What an excellent distillation of the minds of the dark lords and of why Eru allowed things to go so far, as well as why the Valar began to seem distant to some and nearly insignificant to the dark lords…until just seconds before they were each thrown down; Morgoth by those who felt true pity for all those in ME, though they were perhaps still a bit short sighted; and Sauron by the very peoples he had sought to dominate, and with his own powers (the ring) or likeness thereof (the fear engendered by the King of the Dead and his army in fulfilling their oath to Isildur through Isildur's heir. There is a symmetry that is truly beautiful in how it worked out. Of course, Arda remains marred and thus evil will always be present, but hopefully it becomes more and more dilute until the re-shaping of the world occurs. Thank you, JTI

[@namomandos1918]

This was a really great video. I love listening to these podcasts and this one in particular is now one of my favorites. I always enjoy the more theological and how/why psychological dives into the Legendarium and its characters. I also can't wait to hear "Sauron's plans for Middle-earth" as it is one I have been asking about for a while!

[@TheRedBook]

You mean it's better than giving you the history of Sauron? :O . And yeah I am really looking forward to making that one, I don't know if it will be a podcast or a regular video, will see when I have it written out :)

[@inthefade]

Yes I always wonder what it would have looked like 100 or 200 years later if Sauron had won. What was his plan?

[@Enerdhil]

I love how Steven called Eru "the composer" of the Music of the Ainur. Of course, he was, but I had never deeply thought about that before. I would go so far as to say that Eru "conducted" the Ainulindalë too.🤔

[@Azulakayes]

He did indeed. Even after Melkor brought disharmony, Eru still weaved that into harmony. I think if Melkor was to take a moment and think, he would have realised that even his rebellion was to lead to ultimate good. The end of the song was harmony so it is a prophesy that the end will still be harmony.

[@JoeNaeem]

Great analysis, and I especially love your acknowledgment of non-Christian or atheist perspectives, while also stating what should be obvious: that we can put our real-world outlooks aside in our appreciation of J.R.R. Tolkien's work. Bravo!

[@CanalTremocos]

Second time listening to this episode. On one hand, because the hopelessness of The Big Existential Threat is such an interesting subject but on the other hand because this podcast has such a pleasant soundscape. It's form and content!

[@michaelsavage7884]

I Love the theology in Tolkiens World. It's why I love learning our heros and Sauron. The Dark Lord Morgoth and Manwe. It's what sucked me in more than the story itself. Mixing different Religions and cults in his story and world. From ours too sometimes.

[@EvanzZx]

This was probably my favourite podcast ep you released. Some of my favorite topics covered. Nice work!

[@Azulakayes]

21:00 I would love an indepth video on Namo/Mandos. His declarations are fascinating as is his relationships with his sister Nienna(my favourite Valar) and his weaving wife Vairë.

[@davidstoyanoff]

As a yank, I find your voice captivating. You are in the right job my friend.

[@Maelum_]

With the posthumous notes in NoME and MR, I feel Melkor-morgoth becomes even more complex: in NOME, we get a note talking about how, after lying to himself that he wanted to help the creatures of Arda before entering Ea, melkor was not truly evil yet and in fact had the most part in following the plan of Eru when working on Ea with the others after entering it, only becoming truly evil when jealousy that Manwe would be king of Arda overcame him. Then in MR, there is a version of the War of the Valar for the sake of the Elves Against Melkor-morgoth where towards the end, as Utumno was seiged before Melkor-Morgoth's capture, he briefly ponders genuine redemption before rejecting it and becoming more evil because of that. Very interesting stuff!

[@indio4-215]

I've known about that second detail in Morgoth's Ring for a while now, but not the first one in Nature of Middle-earth as I've not yet had the time to read through all of it. That's fascinating, and it serves to raise Melkor even higher than he already was in my eyes, so thank you for making that known to me.

[@Maelum_]

@@indio4-215 "Melkor (inside Eä) only really becomes evil after the achievement of Eä in which he played a great and powerful part (and in its early stages in accord with the fundamental Design of Eru). It was jealousy of Manwë and desire to dominate the Eruhíni that drove him mad." NOME 3.XV

[@specialnewb9821]

​@@Maelum_ I get the sense that at that point Melkor was wrapped up in creating and was pleased that he could outdo ALL the others combined in doing things. It's almost understandable if after being the BEST he does not get to be in charge and becomes unhinged.

[@Yashael341]

"Propound to him a lord that will sanction what he desires and not forbid it." That's probably the most evil thing Sauron ever did.

[@hodgrix]

Great video as always!! 100% agree that Eru is not a concept that we can understand and that we shouldn't arrogantly presume his intentions . Also regarding Sauron I'd add that his desire for order and control is the only thing that ever motivated him. He didn't necessarily discern the moral difference of good vs evil but rather order vs chaos. As such I think he might not have committed the amount of atrocities he did HAD the Celebrimbor and the elves just accepted his authority and his sense of perfect order was maintained. But being that they did not accept, it was inevitable that he would become the next Dark Lord.

[@victordonavon292]

Hmmm... but given the ultimate results, does that not suggest that Sauron's desired sense of order is a perversion of what the world actually was and is? If so, then yielding to Sauron would be nothing more than lending to the inevitable and just akin to appeasing a crocodile by feeding it others in hopes of that it'll eat you last.

[@AMB-c4c]

Fantastically done. I study these issues professionally and think you made really difficult abstract concepts really accessible and also really true to the tradition Tolkien’s operating in.

[@LifeofHum]

Listening this in icy Saskatchewan after travelling from Pakistan recently. I feel like travelling through Middle Earth and observing the unfolding of the history.

[@benH215]

Love your thought provoking discussions of Tolkien's work. You don't get nearly enough traffic for the depth of your topics IMO. Please keep it up!

[@ardaea2529]

It's a shame when you compare the views and subs on such deep and well-thought out Tolkien content like this with the shallow and childish content of The Broken Sword and their ilk. It's a travesty that they have over 200,000 subscribers and you've not even reached 50,000 yet. This is by far the best Tolkien content that is being produced on KZbin.

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. The irony is that History of the Ages stole content from Steven and other's and passed it off as their own. KZbin shut down the channel. James and Jake made a broad apology in a video and kicked off their new channel: The Broken Sword. I would think most of their followers are Power Rangers and Pokemon fans anyway.

[@ardaea2529]

@@Enerdhil Most of their viewers won't know about their theft and won't know about this channel. It's all childish wikipedia reading anyway. I'd be surprised if those guys had actually read Tolkien. They seem to offer no thought. It's just boring factual information. ALl the big channels are like that reall.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

it's a feature of the fact that tolkien was brought into geeknerd "culture" and lord of the rigns became a "fandom" like star trek etc, despite being much more literary and deep than these other things

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

For someone who constantly caveats his understanding of theology, you actually seem to have a good handle on a lot of the concepts. 😂 Great work as always, and happy new year!

[@robertstewart239]

I've watched a lot of your videos and this is the best and deepest one yet. I began to write another comment on it that turned into the start of an essay! So much thought-provoking stuff. Today, I also watched your video about how the Ring would have tempted Frodo. Great conclusions. Well done.

[@josephhoskins7354]

You've done such a wonderful job here. I gotta say that I love your longer works like this one. I listen while at work and is such a joy. Thank you.

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Eru allowed Melkor to add his discord to the Making of Arda. Wow 🔥🔥

[@superslayerguy]

Dude I just wanna say your videos are so so so so good holy crap, I’m in the middle of reading 131 right now and this is helping me make sense of it. When I first started going down the Tolkien rabbit hole I didn’t realize it went this deep 😭

[@TheRedBook]

131 is probably the must read letter when it comes to Tolkien. I like talking about it so let me know if something else pops up from it that you think would work well as a video explaining things :)

[@superslayerguy]

@@TheRedBook will do man :) thank you for the reply I feel so honored!

[@TheRedBook]

@@superslayerguy Na, I'm always skulking about here ;) thanks for the comment!

[@TheRedBook]

Another video about the Dark Lords because I just can't help myself. I am still aiming to have a Podcast episode each month as we enter 2023, I have plenty of ideas but feel free to share what you would like discussed on the Podcast. Edit - I meant to release another video before this one so it wasn't two podcast episodes in a row. Bit of a medical issue has stopped me being able to record but another regular video will be coming soon. You can find the Podcast on Spotify at (open.spotify.com/episode/3hLnlP7uFGWsZrqWD4bmGi?si=b4605e0964cb4822) Or you can find it on other platforms at (anchor.fm/red-book) You can get early access to Podcast episodes and videos by joining Patreon (patreon.com/theredbook) or checking out KZbin membership on my homepage.

[@rodneyholland1867]

You got the theological connections very well. It is rare to see such in depth and accurate assessment of the spirituality of Tolkien's world. You've done very well.

[@chattylumpkin]

Thank you so much. I have just discovered your channel and I enjoy it very much. I am currently reading Tolkien's letters and listening to Phil Dragash's masterwork performance of the books. My goodness, what a surprise! I listedened to the Fellowship four times, I loved it so much. I am currently of The Two Towers. The Battle of Helms Deep was so tense my heart was pounding! I don't know if I have a favourite chapter. Phil Dragash's dramatization of Tom Bombadil and Treebeard was just fantastic. This far outstrips any movie or TV series I've seen, although I have enjoyed those as well. My burning question is about a chapter in the Fellowship. In The Journey in the Dark chapter; the fellowship is attacked during the night by a pack of wolves or wargs. Gandalf calls the the hounds of Sauran and defends the company with light and fire. Legolas shoots and kills two of the wolves with arrows. In the morning; there is no sign of the battle or the dead wolves. The only evidence of a fight are Legolas' arrows. Gandalf then says they were more than just wolves. What were they and how could their remains just disappear? If these were creatures of the living world; there would be remains. So I assume they are creatures of the unseen world entering the real world in the form of wolves. I wondered if they were the Nazgul taking another form to hunt and harass the company, after they had been unhorsed at the Ford outside Rivendell. Some kind of wraith perhaps?

[@Jonny-yh2nl]

The role of Eru as it changes from intervening to non-intervening god and back again and how that mirrors classic religious debates around deism and theism is worth a discussion, and I have never heard it discussed in tolkiens works even though he would surely have wrestled with the idea personally.

[@dahsellsavon113]

Glad to have found this. And glad to find a fellow scot as a narrator.

[@TheRedBook]

Can tell you are Scottish from the name 😅

[@atnasingetnamn2887]

I think this is one of your finest videos, and I'm so glad it's a long one too; I keep returning to it. I actually think Tolkiens Silmarillion- and the way you (and I!) see the role eof Eru, free will etc- made me a lot more humble, going from aggressiv atheist to a bit more humble agnostic. Thank you for these, they provide a lot of comfort and interesting reflection after stressful days!

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was great stuff. It reminds me of course of Hegel, thesis plus antithesis equals synthesis. I just am forced once more to admire the quiet professor of Englsih who gets us all thinking about such things, and who expressedit so beautifully in the analogy with mists and smokes snow and fire. thanks Steven and keep up the good work.

[@ericgardner3140]

My favorite quote from Paradise Lost has stuck with me since freshman English..."Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven"

[@cavetroll666]

Thanks for the content i listen while at work 🙃

[@Enerdhil]

🤫 Your boss may be reading this.

[@ianmorlan6553]

What a topic, keep at it this is great.

[@squamish4244]

Tolkien needed antagonists and needed a cosmological justification for them as part of his belief system. What he came up with was pretty good!

[@josencan]

Your explanation and consistency is just sound.

[@disgruntledtoons]

The principle involved in Morgoth's thought, and Sauron's as well, is called /evasion/, the refusal to know something. Once in Arda, they both forsook all knowledge of Eru and refused to admit Him into their thoughts. To fully believe that Eru is, and to build their outlook on that belief, would prohibit them from pursuing their wishes.

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

deeply interesting video

[@charliecrain1830]

Love these discussions feels so freeing! And fun!

[@LordBalin]

Y'all come sign up on Patreon and join the discord server so we can chat about all things Tolkien. Like and comment on this video too! This video is a 🤯

[@danieldeclue1466]

Dude. Thank you so so much for speaking about Melkors lies to the valar. I have so many friends who are also fans of the legendarium but they have this really bad tendency to think that manwe is stupid or something for believing him. I get so frustrated trying to explain to them that he had literally never been lied to before. He literally had never had someone deceive him before. Melkor practically introduced deception to all of them! I don't know where people get this idea that man weigh being unable to understand evil is something that should be ridiculed

[@CantusTropus]

Manwe's innocence is more like childlike innocence rather than stupidity.

[@saunajaakko699]

The point you make at the beginning of the video is fundamental when reading Tolkien. His writings should be best understood from perspective of his personal beliefs and faith (something important to him, that was only thing left from his mother, which he lost at young age) combined with his fascination of pagan mythologies. Focusing on what HE wanted to express, so we can begin to actually understand how his world functions I'm exbeliever who turned into atheist. Had edgier anti-christian phase going, but nowday have much healthier and mature approach to my former religion. I feel that many readers dismiss and ignore this religious aspect of Tolkien's work, or also try to even claim him. Mostly because they spite christianity overall. Even though this christian element is what

[@noway8259]

Did you forget to finish your comment?

[@jamief1263]

There are moments where fate seems to intervene, which is sometimes said to be more powerful than the Valar. Is fate Eru’s way of contesting Evil? or is it another independent power? Such moments are Beren breaking the girdle of Melian, Gandalf choosing Bilbo, Bilbo finding the ring, Frodo’s parents drowning and the quake knocking Gollum into Mount Doom.

[@HowieChicago]

Happy new year

[@TarMody]

The essence of the third theme that Eru gives to the Ainur and shapes the performance of music is based on the principles of determinism and Hegelian dialectic in the real world. The synthesis formed by the conflict between thesis (relatively benevolent forces) and anti-thesis (relatively malevolent forces), interacting within the framework of cause-effect relationship, reflects the words of Eru to Melkor mentioned in The Silmarillion: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." According to conspiracy theorists, the concept of "order arising from chaos" (Ordo Ab Chao), which is one of the basic teachings of the Illuminati organization, can be interpreted as the harmony arising from the conflict that took place during the performance of the Music of the Ainur in Tolkien mythology.

[@PenumbranWolf]

My interpretation of Eru will forever be colored by Lovecraft's Azathoth. Eru to me is just a slightly more cuddly version of Azathoth, a simple creator god who made the world for his own entertainment and is just here to sit back and watch the show for laughs.

[@noway8259]

How would you then explain Eru's interventions?

[@PenumbranWolf]

@@noway8259 I think its less a situation of him watching TV and more he's directing a play or conducting a symphony. His interventions are people going off script or loosing the tempo and him getting things back on track.

[@greenmountainpokemon2112]

I believe there was a 3rd time that "Eru" intervened (maybe indirectly), and that's when Gollum tripped inside Mt doom (after re-taking the one ring).

[@scottm9605]

That was Frodo's command. Gollum swore himself to Frodo on the ring and Frodo bound him to a fate using the power of the ring. "Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. "Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

[@LuisAlbright]

Awesome

[@Aburg76]

0:08 shots fired

[@lhadzyan7300]

No matter if both Sauron and Melkor/Morgoth and his related creations and actions were a part of Eru´s schemes for the world to have complexity and a way to get a better sense of why Goodness needs to exist or to be done by constrasting the existence of the opposite, other dark themes for Middle Earth lore as Ungoliant´s related issues and the Nameless Things which disturbed a lot Gandalf at the bottom of Moria when chasing on the Balrog, seems to be hints of some broader uncanny cosmic-horror type which are something unexpected and even unsettling beyond Eru´s own plans like crackings on which he just had to readapt himself and made unnoticed his creation that actually isn´t so perfect beyond of the universe he is holding within around himself, and something else might happen beyond the Void kept shrouded in empty darkness as neverending but probably was just protected from whatever is beyond it like a type of bubble-like glass-aquarium thing suspended in void and shrouded in darkness so all the fishes or beings within just happen to go endlessly in circles safety avoiding to go outside and being both unnoticed from whatever lies outside it and as well kept hidden from beyond what´s keept there in the thick cloud of darkness and void outside of himself, but yet.... maybe something has come from outside to start troubles within and inducing even part on Melkor´s corruption on his outer void wanderings there as if he didn´t found anything, yet... he did find something or something else found him and affected though neither him or Eru got noticed of that impact within. Who knows if actually Eru has done Ea just this one time alone or will have to restart again too, trying each time more to improve and surpass on protecting his creation from the dangers beyond him, even mading sure to protect his creation from the truth on which he is the only good and moral light thing into whatever lies beyond him that is expressed into just chaos, amorality, void and darkness itself and at the end is even more powerfull than light existence alone though neither could destroy it as well, thus hope and creation ever exists over and over no matter if has to restart endlessly each time and forgotting totally each time on the former creation existences and outer troubles except on Eru´s own personal mystery secrets. But well those ideas goes beyond of Christianity ideas of cosmology henceforth Tolkien didn´t used in all, as those aren´t even Western-related ideas even on the mythologies previous on Christianity too and he didn´t cared or liked to think about it in all regardless on how richer the apports might have done at his literature building too.

[@michaszkot4419]

Any hope for a new episode of "Heroes of the First Age" in the near future?

[@TheRedBook]

Yes :) it will be about Finrod and I suspect it will be a February release ( I hope ! ) but I haven't stopped those.

[@michaszkot4419]

@@TheRedBook Finrod or Felagund? Yes I've been reading Beren and Luthien recently...

[@chucknorris202]

One of the best videos yet. You should do a video on both Morgoth and Sauron's influence over Men; both the Easterlings and southrons, and also the Men of the West and those related to them; like what Morgoth did to Hurin and his whole family; and ditto with Sauron and Elendil and the kings of Gondor and Arnor(though he failed in his extermination of the Kings in Arnor). Both in the Dark years but also in the later third age when LOTR takes place, the men of the East, and all Evil Men who had loyalty to Mordor, were required to call Sauron a God. Sauron wanted to be the God King of Men during the age of Man. And lack of strong faithful armies like at the end of the Second age and the last alliance, he would've succeeded in that aim if Eru hadn't intervened in Frodo and Gollums fight over the Ring, and sent a wind to throw Gollum and the Ring into the fire and defeat Sauron and forever diminish his spirit. its interesting to note that even after the Rings destroyed Sauron does not "die"; he cannot die. but he also cant ever take physical form again like he did in both the second age and during the books in LOTR, though he kept to his tower in the later third age, having learned the dangers of engaging in personal combat even if you're the greatest Maiar, when Elendil and gil Galad killed his physical body, and Isildur cut the ring from it making his spirit flee its shell, requiring a thousand years to regain his power enough to take form again.

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah I've been writing about exactly that for a while and the video(s) will be called "The Fall of Man" and it's about the influence the Dark Lords had over Men and why they served and worshipped them. Been a long time in the making but I want it to be really good since it's a favourite topic of mine. You can expect it in 2023 at some point :D

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Looking forward to this one!😁👍

[@chucknorris202]

@@TheRedBook Ooh nice. I'll be looking forward to it!

[@genequist3859]

I don't consider myself a Tolkien expert. I don't consider myself a religious person either, but my family went to church and stuff in my early years. I feel like with Melkor it was much like with Lucifer. The lack of understanding of God/Eru's plan caused doubts and suspicion in those of lesser faith. This led to the idea that maybe this God dude isn't all he's cracked up to be if he's holding out on us. Maybe he's scared of us and what we could do if we really questioned and challenged him. And the fact that Eru has what appears to be a "hands off" approach to his creation further sewed that doubt that Eru really was all powerful. This with the seductive line of thinking about the kind of power that could be seized may have emboldened beings like Melkor and Sauron to rebel.

[@Ka_T_ya]

As someone who has read the Bible myself, funnily enough when I was reading the Silmarilion, I saw more of Milton’s Lucifer in Melkor than the more canonical one. So, I don’t see how can anyone blame you.

[@indio4-215]

Same with me. "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven", were the words that immediately crossed my mind concerning Melkor when I read the Silmarillion.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

From a Christian perspective, what makes God God, and Eru Eru is the quote you made "He existed beyond time". God, because he exists beyond linear time, is able to see beginning, middle and end of all things. All the rest of us exist on the linear time yardstick unable to see very far forward or backwards from the now. Why would Satan (Lucifer) continue to rebel when he knows who God is? Delusion, Stubbornness of will, Desperation, Infliction of Pain on God? Why doesn't God or Eru intervene directly? Maybe because of the very free will he has imbued into his creation. To do so would take away that free will. Instead his intervention is always done to allow the return of the fallen back into the fold, even if they are not capable. Deep, deep area of discussion. As always, thank you for poking the bear. ; )

[@Enerdhil]

Yes, free will is an essential element in all of this. Steven was right when he said that free will has to be 100% or 0%. I think there also needs to be consequences for bad decision making.

[@jessewilliams9195]

Very interesting, thank you

[@LordWyatt]

I’ve always disliked the question of “if there’s a Good God then why is there evil and pain at all in the world?” Because those who ask rarely accept the answer: God’s greatest gift to His creation was their Free Will. *He* is Holy because he is separate from the rest of Creation (of reality itself) and Chooses not to do Evil. Yet people who ask that tend to put their beliefs in it (“Well if I was God I would smite Lucifer before the rebellion even began!”🤦‍♂️Very well then, God would be a Tyrant not allowing anything other than His Will)

[@Void-ez2it]

Rarely accept the answer because it's a garbage answer. There can't be both free will and an all powerful, all controlling god.

[@specialnewb9821]

Note: regarding prometheus he stole civilization because his brother, Epimetheus failed in his task to give mankind a gift. You can interpret this various ways but I like to think of it as fixing his brother's mistake out of love.

[@shawn6669]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus

[@His_Name_Was_King]

The logic and motives of The Creator trying to be understood and judged with human understanding. Has there ever been such folly in all the Universe??

[@artemismoonbow2475]

Eru is everything, everything is Eru or the consciousness (thought) of Eru. This type of non-dualism is typically recognized in Eastern philosophy, but it does exist within Western Christian traditions as well. Typically, non-dualistic thought is found in the writings of dismissed mystics or persecuted sects and had Tolkien been writing a few hundred years before, he would have ended on the bonfire with fellow heritics. There is no evidence that Tolkien was secretly reading Eastern philosophy or practicing esoteric arts, but his work came from his dreams I cannot separate his Legendarium from the Mystic tradition.

[@Davlavi]

for the algorithm.

[@rubensoeteman]

Eru being the one intervening at Numenor somehow bothers me.. It would have been better and more fitting if it was the valars doing since they have been given the power of free Will and reshape the land. Plus it was the Valar who were attacked so this way of retribution would be more in character I think.

[@TheRedBook]

I don't think retribution is in character for the Valar. They have free will but this attack on Men may have been stepping on the toes of Eru's plan, hat's why they appealed to him for assistance. Though, there is one section from Tolkien where he does say it was the Valar who then took care of it after receiving Eru's blessing, though many other sources say it was Eru who stepped in.

[@Enerdhil]

Don't you think the Valar would have buried Ar-Pharazon and his men and sunk Numenor if they could? That would have been an act of evil for them to do it. When Eru does it, it is a righteous judgment and proper sentencing.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

So, does this mean that the destruction of the Lamps of the Valar, the destruction of the world brought by th War of the Powers. The death of the Trees of the Valar, the creation and chaos of the orcs and the dragons is part of the plan of Eru? If not why was he angry when Aule created the dwarfs, but not whe Morgoth created the orcs and the dragons? True, Eru did give the dwarfs free will and life, but if the Valar and Maiar could not create anything that did not have it's origins in Eru, why was he angry? Maybe Eru always intended for them to exist but Aule brought them into being too soon, thus Melkor, Sauron and Saruman thought of creating new things like the orcs, dragons, trolls and new types of orcs and trolls. Maybe Aule's impatience was the source of the idea for orcs, trolls and dragons! A source that had it's origins in Eru! A side note, both Sauron and Saruman were followers of Aule before they became evil!

[@ellietobe]

I think that most fundamentalist Christians would not find much in common with Tolkien’s created world, especially with his “god” or any of the created beings. Yes, Christians believe that God gave his created beings free will but that is where any commonality with Tolkien’s world ends. The music making is totally foreign. Satan was known to be someone involved in music but not in the way Tolkien uses music in his story. Tolkien was a Roman Catholic. Most Catholics are not Bible based but the religion is loosely based upon Biblical beliefs. In the Christian belief system God gave the earth to Adam. Because of the serpent’s deception Adam decided to bow to the serpent rather than the Creator. God cannot take back what Adam has freely given. Adam had freely given his domain to the serpent. Therefore the earth was handed over to the dominion of darkness. Until the lease God gave Adam is up God can only intervene in cases where his people invoke the name of the Redeemer. When the lease given to Adam is up then everything will change back to God’s possession and there may be some problems for those who were wicked. How does Tolkien run his world? He seems to change his mind quite a bit. Tolkien can do as he pleases with his world and at times he seems to forget what he choose to do a few years earlier.

[@Mentallect]

Two sociopaths and narcissists destined to fail.

[@bernardputersznit64]

I am sorry, but Sauron was an apprentice to Aule - it is IMHO his authority that was exceeded when Sauron started to do wicked things with the SKILLS he was given by the same - minimally, Aule should have come and droped Annatar's anvil on his all too purdy face . . . ;-)

[@TheRedBook]

The answer is always free will. As Governers of Arda, do the Valar then just swoop in and punish every single evil act that occurs in Arda? Do they then take measures to stop evil acts from ever happening by force?

[@Enerdhil]

Actually, Steven, maybe I misheard what you said, but did you say that Morgoth was cast into the outer darkness after he was brought back to Valinor after the War of Wrath? Because I thought he was locked in the Halls of Mandos for three ages.

[@TheRedBook]

He was locked in Mandos after the Battle of the Powers. That was back when the Elves had awoken. After the War of Wrath he was cast through the Door of Night after being chained again.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook I think I mistook the context of the statement. I was going from memory and definitely should have rewound and checked. Thanks for the correction.

[@disgruntledtoons]

If you watch real-life people one thing you can see is that in spite of the state of evidence on many issues, there are still people who embrace the position that can only be true if the massive evidence is dismissed. Which they do.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

You forgot the moment where Eru makes Gollum have allucinations and stumble into the flame,and i know you hate the What IFS of lotr but in relation to the motivations of both Morgoth and Sauron,i still wonder what would have happened if the Valar or Eru only didnt intervene and what would look like the end goal of the Dark Lords. I am very interested to talk about it with whoever wants to.

[@TheRedBook]

I didn't forget :D It's something I'll need to cover in a video but I think people misunderstand what Tolkien meant when it came to Eru, Gollum, and Mount Doom. I don't see it as direct intervention... At least not in the same sense as the examples I gave.

[@Enerdhil]

I have always thought that the curse Frodo put on Gollum, if he should violate his oath, was what caused Gollum to stumble and fall. Of course, Tolkien said that Eru had intervened, but couldn't that have been in response to Gollum's treachery in regard to Frodo and the Ring? I find it hard to believe that Eru gets FULL credit for destroying the Ring and that he wasn't justified in intervening, except for the salvation of Middle Earth.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@Enerdhil I my opinion,it would been better if Tolkien just removed Eru from the equation,and just made Gollum stumble on his own. Conferming the theme that "in time evil destroys itself"

[@Enerdhil]

@@Elia-fn8jv Yeah. Can you imagine if the God of the Bible had to drag Jesus to the cross in order for him to be crucified? That would destroy the Entire point of the crucifixion.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@Enerdhil Eru didnt tell Gollum to stumble,he made him to.BIG DIFFERENCE

[@Esteliohan]

I’ve always felt bad for Sauron but I’ve always hated Morgoth.

[@Connor-JamesHamilton-xl5uv]

If you view the races of the children of Eru as a whole, then their suffering at the hands of the Dark Lords was not long in the entire time of existence. The First Age conflict against Morgoth was just over 500 years if I’m correct (and even during that time, there where periods of peace and joy) and when you think of Elves living from then till the Fourth Age being over 6000 years, then their suffering would have been a very short time of their lives. And if they died, Elves would go to Mandos where they would be eventually healed and revisited and remember little of their previous pains and sufferings. , and live for the rest of existence in ‘Heaven on Earth’ Valinor. Couple this with the idea of death for the race of Men, we go on to an eternity in another world (The Second Music which none know) where the hurts of Arda are perhaps redressed then even the 80 or so years of a human life (even filled with constant pain and misery) would be but a spec in the entirety of their souls existence. This to Eru, who is outside of time and perhaps sees of creation all at once, from beginning to end, would understand this better and thus allows it to happen. I think it’s stated somewhere in Tolkien’s writings about how the experience of pain and suffering teach compassion and mercy and wisdom, which are morale virtues.

[@sainiharika]

My doubts exactly

[@greycricketsong]

Was gandalf wearing Narya when he fell? Did Eru give it back to him? Because gandalf says he was sent back naked.

[@TheRedBook]

Gandalf returned to the body that he had left. That's why he needed to be flown to Lorien and why he had his sword and Ring of Power already.

[@johanabigasova6770]

Melkor Morgoth and Sauron had different reasons for their war. Melkor wanted to rule Arda. Sauron wanted to give order to Middle-Earth. They tried to fulfill their purposes, but they failed. One have to ask why Sauron did it, when it was clear that He would only waste his time.

[@LordBalin]

I disagree on Melkor. He wanted to destroy Arda.

[@TheRedBook]

Well, that's the purpose of the entire episode - answering why Sauron did it & Morgoth too.

[@johanabigasova6770]

@@LordBalin ... When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: "This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!" Ainulindalë, The Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien

[@LordBalin]

@@johanabigasova6770 Yes. In the beginning he wanted to rule it. After his imprisonment by the Valar he became so spiteful that destruction was his goal.

[@LordBalin]

He was like a child that would rather destroy his toy instead of sharing it.

[@tdowell8615]

How did melkor create dragons? Thought he couldn’t create only corrupt.

[@TheRedBook]

He made them but didn't create them, implying they came from something else and he twisted them into dragons.

[@brucehunter8235]

Why does Sauron follow Morgoth when his motives are at such cross-purposes with his? Sauron wants to rule and control the world, Morgoth wants to destroy it. These aren't compatible.

[@TheRedBook]

Morgoth didn't originally want to destroy it, that came later. Sauron's motives also became a big deal when Morgoth was defeated and Sauron was "free" to pursue his own motives.

[@Spectre2434]

Do you think that the Rings of Power writers read the letter

[@yuritesticoff1141]

Free will to creation isn't the same as God being responsible for evil deeds free beings commit. People that can't grasp that concept, well.....either not capable of understanding it or reject it.

[@sainiharika]

Best video. You r channelling Eru All father. Masterpiece. Pisces ♓️ is closest to Source.

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

As a fellow Milton fan, why would I attack you for having great taste?

[@TheRedBook]

Was more of a comment towards those who would prefer scripture. I even got a few comments like that following this video.

[@chriszimmer3804]

Sticking to the limits of fantasy ... Why not take it straight from the bible .... i think tolkien did...

[@Enerdhil]

What is this post in reference to?

[@chriszimmer3804]

@@Enerdhil The Dark Lords of Tolkien: A Hopeless Conflict? | The Red Book Podcast - Episode 8

[@Enerdhil]

@@chriszimmer3804 Yes, I know, but did you expect Steven to quote Scripture?

[@chriszimmer3804]

@@Enerdhil the bible is the gold standard so to say. You dont literally have to quote scripture. You can refer to it without becoming sanctimonious instead vs avoiding it like holy water. JRR Tolkien was a professed Christian and yet people on these channels dont acknowledge that and stick to fantasy to feel better of sorts...

[@TheRedBook]

I do refer to it. I can't think of any Tolkien channels that reference his faith more than this one. I acknowledge it all the time so you clearly haven't watched much of my content if you think I don't acknowledge it or avoid it like holy water. Still, I'll quote from the text of the author himself and not scripture while still acknowledging its massive influence on what he is writing. And it is nothing about feeling better, what are you even on about with that?

[@aarontalksculture4946]

Only through a lens of Judeo-Christian mythology can the actions and inaction of Eru and the Ainur be viewed favorably. Obviously this is the mindset Tolkien held as a Christian, but it is not my interpretation of the work. Thinking about a monotheistic all powerful God, whether fictional or real, does not necessarily indicate that such a being is all good. An all powerful God is just a being unanswerable to anyone else. Eru created the Ainur who have individual personalities and though generally benevolent, are not all good all the time and they often wonder which course of action to take. As they are creations of Eru and some of them almost instantly go evil how are we to think that evil is not itself a part of Eru. They do not know the full mind of Eru. They chose to invite the Eldar to live amongst them and they chose to leave Men mostly to their own doom. I see no proof that men could not have benefited from a closer relationship to Ainur who took physical form on Arda. It was just a choice the Ainur made. Many thousands of years of anguish and suffering endured in Middle Earth through various periods of the ages. That is obviously no short time for men and still not short for many of the Eldar, some of whom endured their entire life under oppression. Manwe, king of the world, sat on his hands in paradise for the vast majority of history while lesser in rank and/or power Ainur reigned terror across Arda. I see imperfect "gods" making imperfect choices. For me personally there is no other interpretation. Judeo-Christian mythology has to create an answer for the immeasurable suffering in the real world. They need some greater, unknowable answer to explain why babies die and lifelong criminals succeed. God works in mysterious ways. In Tolkien eventually the dark lords are defeated. However Sauron and Morgoth were correct. Eru didn't care until he did. Immeasurable "black evil" was done while Eru was waiting to care. It's like making someone eat dog dookie for their entire life with a promise that in the next life they will have an endless buffet. I greatly enjoy the mythology but I don't buy the narrative. Created beings are only an experiment of the creator. The suffering or well-being of those created is secondary to the experiment itself.