The Council of Elrond & The One Ring | The Red Book | Episode 7

[@steelshepherd6843]

Crazy this channel hasn't exploded in viewers. Excellent quality, sound, visuals, and analysis.

[@TheRedBook]

I have my moments in September each year for some reason but yeah still a pretty tiny channel. I'd love for it to eventually reach 100k subscribers but that will probably take many years!

[@adamloverin231]

Serious. I’ve been through several. This one has been on point.

[@triple-a6399]

I have been subbed to many lotr channels over the years. Now i mostly only watch/listen to TolkienLore and TheRedBook. This is the best channel. Amazing overall quality. And i love the soundbytes from tokybook.

[@kryoboy2.074]

@@TheRedBook merry Christmas from that guy in whitfield😉😂👍🍻🌲🎅

[@LordBalin]

It will get more viewers. Just got to keep liking the videos and keep making comments.

[@rasmus44]

It's so calming to just sit back and listen to these videos, they never fail to make me immersed in Tolkien's world. Thank you for making them!

[@TheRedBook]

I put myself to sleep sometimes :D

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Gandalf's quote from "The Steward and the King" and your interpretation of it just nail down the point. Great video as always!

[@beegfeeg4473]

I really like how Fellowship of the Ring before the Council of Elrond Chapter feels very contained and quaint, due to it all being through the eyes of the Hobbits. Once they reach the council, however, the world of Middle Earth opens up completely, and shows the weight and power the Ring truly holds over all of Middle Earth. It’s almost overbearing how much is put on the reader to realize the desperation of the situation entails, which is no doubt exactly how Frodo and the other Hobbits felt hearing all this information. I think it’s very clever writing on Tolkien’s part to make the reader just as naive as the Hobbits are to the greater scale of the world around them.

[@gib59er56]

beegfeeg, I have been reading Tolkien since 5th grade when I got " The Hobbit " as a gift for Christmas or my birthday in 1977. I loved it and was hooked. Next wasLotR in Jr. H.S. and the Silmarillion in H.S. , then everything Christopher published thru the 90`s on the 12 book history of Middle Earth and all I could get my hands on. Your comment was great! I never looked at it in the way you described before. Of course I saw the story building up and new characters introduced, but you make a very good point. And, in truth Pippen does not really understand everything even when he and Gandalf reach Minas Tirith. Gandalf warns him not to mention Frodo or Aragorn to Denethor. Pippin asks him "whats wrong with ol` Strider"? And Gandalf tells him "if you have come all this way with your eyes and ears closed then wake up now!!" So, yes , until they make it to Rivendell they are still very isolated and know nothing other than the Shire and really do not want to know. They want to go home. They were only asked to get the Ring to Rivendell and no more than that. But the Council has torn the safety blanket off of them and they begin to understand the power and evil of the One Ring. Frodo at least understands his fate is bound with the fate of the Ring and the quest to destroy it. He does not want it at all, but he is wise enough to see the peril of the world is within this task.

[@Tubesmaney]

Well said - and I remember realizing this when I first read the books. Suddenly Middle Earth becomes a big, complex place full of other peoples and kingdoms and plans.

[@CertifiedFreshMemes]

Your channel does everything right when it comes to presentation. It looks perfect and sounds perfrct. I often put on your videos on while getting ready for sleeping. I have ADHD and I'll stay awake all night if I have nothing to listen to while falling asleep. Your videos are so damn interesting I can zone out on them and beat those sleepless nights. Still pretty sure I've watched every video on your channel at least twice. Thanks again for being the most interesting Tolkien channel!

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you for the comment :) and it's nice that my videos can put people to sleep but NOT because they are boring haha.

[@daniellefaure9817]

@@TheRedBook I'm French and I don't really understand and write English well. But there is translation in french so I can read the commentaries. And I think that they are the most clever I found. So I suppose that your explanations in the vidéos are very clever, the most clever than I have found in french and in English. I see your vidéos after reading the french translation of the commentaries and I can understand them and look your videos after. I thank for your explanations. Sorry for my bad English. And thank you for the qualiti of your work.

[@AlexSmith-mj8yd]

I find this channel 2 months ago and it is hands down the best loTR channel on KZbin or podcasts!

[@benbrown8258]

This is one channel I would have no problems telling my friends about. Having said that I think I should be telling my friends about that that will be my new year resolution. I will try to introduce at least 15 friends to this channel

[@alexshadowfax1119]

My favorite section of the Lord of the Rings has always been the beginning of the book through the council of Elrond chapter. It sets everything up perfectly and beautifully for the rest of the story to unfold. Wonderfully presented podcast by the way.

[@TheRedBook]

The part that quite a few seem to think is boring. I love all that build up.

[@joehebert789]

I am in agreement that this is the best chapter of LOTR. Thanks for sharing some of your thoughts on it.

[@TheRedBook]

Quite possibly the last video from the channel in 2022 but I have plenty of ideas lined up going forward. Thanks to all who have supported the channel this year! You can find the Podcast on Spotify at (open.spotify.com/episode/3hLnlP7uFGWsZrqWD4bmGi?si=b4605e0964cb4822) Or you can find it on other platforms at (anchor.fm/red-book) You can get early access to Podcast episodes and videos by joining Patreon (patreon.com/theredbook) or checking out KZbin membership on my homepage.

[@MistaGify]

A pleasure to hear from you again, especially on your favorite chapter! I already knew why the Council dismissed all other options, but it was nice how you articulated exactly why taking The One Ring into Valinor was not an option: it was Middle-Earth’s problem, for better or worst. As for those damned Eagles, Peter Jackson was actually asked about that scenario for the behind-the-scenes footage. The guy he was with shouted, “The Nazgûl on their Fell Beasts would have stopped them! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?!” Between said Nazgûl and Orc archers and Sauron’s own will, it’s not hard to see why the Eagles were a bad idea…

[@gunders85]

2022 was a free trial but i decided this is content worth paying for 😊 Have a happy christmas and new year. Looking forward to 2023

[@bobsingh7949]

The Council of Elrond is an obviously important and juicy point in the great tale. No adaptation has done it justice which just leaves room for future creations. Imagining who Frodo is seated with on this day, and what and where his journey has led him to is wonderful to imagine. Elrond is a great lord. I have wisdom when it comes to this great work of the Great Tolkien but you moved me greatly by your efforts/commentary. I was paused as I journeyed by your words. It was emotional. How dutiful are the Valar. The grief they have suffered in caring for Arda and its inhabitants. Yet, Men and others, still figure deeply in their thoughts and are not forgotten. Thank you for your work. Regards from Western Canada. If you find yourself in Alberta, have some beers on me. We have some landscapes here that are worthy of LOTR.

[@wavesailor19]

This too was my favorite chapter. Throughly enjoyed the smart analysis while walking down The COE memory lane. Thank you.

[@TheRedBook]

Most welcome :D thanks for your support this year!

[@Tubesmaney]

Freaking well done on an analysis of a fascinating subject. I've often pondered all the choices they were faced with at the Council of Elrond. I still remember the first time reading the books and thinking that poor Frodo's job would be done once he got to Imladris and could pass the Ring to others who were more powerful than he.

[@An-Ma]

Thank you for your videos, Red Book, I love all of them. I love this one already, even if i haven’t watched it yet. It’s one of my favorite chapters! 👍🌷🌷👋

[@AS-fu1kd]

Very excited to be just finding this channel

[@TheRedBook]

Happy to have you here :)

[@andyparsons608]

Such a good chanel, I have no idea why it took me so long to subscribe. I've been a Tolkien fan for 30+ years and enjoyed many of his weightings. Gg keep up the good work.

[@TheRedBook]

Happy you have found the channel, thanks!

[@DueIistGio]

what fortune! literally just finished this chapter on my first actual readthrough of Lord of the Rings

[@TheRedBook]

What did you think of the chapter? Always interested in first-time thoughts on a chapter like this one.

[@DueIistGio]

@@TheRedBook like the other chapters leading up to this I’m constantly amazed at how much was left out or changed for the sake of story in the film adaptations, as they’ve been my only knowledge of the universe it’s been like learning an entirely different story, loving the back and forth between Elrond and the council of should we hide it or give it to Tom. Let alone what even is bombadil

[@Enerdhil]

Hang in there! Keep reading!👍

[@allukadesu2048]

I am sitting enjoying this analysis and videos. Thank you very much

[@gmanjames1465]

This is such a good channel. Cannot believe the quality

[@thestraightroad305]

What a day! I just got my copy of Following Gandalf in the mail and now the best Tolkien channel with the most important chapter analysis! Now settling down by the fire with a refreshment to listen. Pure contentment.

[@TheRedBook]

The very best chapter in my opinion too :D even just reading it on its own. I hope you enjoyed this analysis :)

[@thestraightroad305]

@@TheRedBook I hope you have read Following Gandalf, Red Book. If not, please consider it! It is well worth the read. Cheers! And I wish you a very happy Christmas. See you in the New Year. Edit: and yes, I thoroughly enjoyed your commentary. As always. I’m looking forward as well to more on Faramir. The power of compassion and humility.

[@Enerdhil]

What was the Refreshment? 🍷☕🍵🍺🥂🍸🍹🍶🥃 None of them?

[@thestraightroad305]

@@Enerdhil oh haha a couple of Capuccini!

[@Enerdhil]

@@thestraightroad305 Excellent choices.👍

[@Callisto_Arcas]

Having seen this in early access, it was so good that I had to listen again when it went public. As always, I become totally immersed in the Legendarium during your videos & podcasts, even in multiple viewings. Thank you for the work (and love) you put into these analyses. The Manwe Eagle Taxi Service makes me laugh every time I hear it. 🤣 I love it!

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you for the support, as always! And I may have to call my inevitable future Eagles video the Manwe Eagle Taxi Service now :D

[@Enerdhil]

Steven, thank you for a full year of joy listening to your videos and podcasts. I feel like I have become more knowledgeable about the lore and more sceptical about other KZbinrs' views of the themes that you cover. Keep up the great work! Have a happy New Year and I hope you get some days off from work so you can relax.

[@nmorts9928]

Your work is fantastic. Has made my week.

[@mosesgunn6937]

The depth of your understanding of the lore is unmatched.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you Moses, nice to see you on here :D

[@docopoper]

Love these videos. I don't feel like I have much to add or question in a comment on topics like this. But I still very much enjoy your videos and podcasts.

[@TheRedBook]

Always like hearing that enjoyed the content, so don't worry about having nothing to add :D

[@Enerdhil]

Yes, Steven is meticulous and highly knowledgeable. Plus ha has a very cool accent.

[@bobsingh7949]

I loved that - "frightening patience." Lucky they had Gandalf. That motherf****** is the sterness. The focus of this legendary dude. The focus he had over swathes of time without permanent abode. Not building power or defense, just serving, listening, befriending. Hoooyahhh! Gandalf!!!! Man!!!

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

Suggestion for an upcoming video: Tolkien's mythological inspirations for creating his Legendarium. An analysis of Tolkien's mythos, and European mythologies: Celtic, Germanic/Scandinavian, Finnish, as well as Judeo-Christian, etc.

[@Enerdhil]

That looks more like a 5-6 video series, but it would be appreciated by all Steven's subs

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was as ever good stuff. Thank you for all you have done for fans this year. keep up the good work next year. All the best for christmas and the new year.

[@TheRedBook]

Hope it's a good one for you and I have many good ideas for videos in 2023!

[@mcintma2]

Some of your best work! Very well spoken. I would add that the Rings were the sin of the elves (trying to create paradise, aka Valinor, on earth) - and that is another reason the 'Ring problem' was not going to be dealt with by the Valar handwaving it away. You can even trace this sin of the Rings of Power back to the Oath of Feanor - for it was the Noldor (and of course Feanor's direct descendant Celebrimbor) that fell into Sauron's trap.

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah, I've had a few comments asking about the ring being "of Middle-earth" and I wish I spent a little bit of time talking about what you've mentioned. The rings themselves between products of Middle-earth and no Valinor. There's always something I wish I expanded upon...

[@johnfleet235]

M you make a great point. But was it really Sauron's trap or was it Eru's trap? In my view, the Rings of Power are a failure. Elves took their off, the dwarves could not be controlled by the rings and the Nazgul seem almost too terrible to be useful.

[@mcintma2]

@@johnfleet235 That's certainly open to interpretation - at story's end we know the Ring was a failure for Sauron. Had it not been destroyed, one can envision it being a great success, allowing total rule over Middle Earth for an Age or more (who knows?)

[@shanenolan5625]

Cheers. Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you ,your family and subscribers ,

[@TheRedBook]

And to you too Shane, have a good one :)

[@WhoIsCalli]

Absolutely loved this. Great analysis. Thanks 🧝‍♂️

[@shinestar2912]

The council of Elrond is the correct way to do and exposition scene.

[@sainiharika]

This is the most spiritual analysis n channel

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Well met Mellon! Keep up the great work. May the Valar Manwe bless you this Yule! Happy Tidings all around in House Storm Crow territory(it is not much, but it is mine) ECTHELION Ps. Tommy B would've got my vote. Alas, he cannot do it .

[@psazani]

Considering the wisest and most powerful in Middle Earth at that time (except Galadriel) were at the council of Elrond, the miracle of that meeting isn't that Frodo agreed to take the ring. The miracle is that none of those powerful were tempted to claim the one ring that stood right in front of them. One could argue that the side of good won right then and there, without a massacre at Rivendell.

[@Callisto_Arcas]

Great point!

[@namomandos1918]

Great video about one of the best chapters in the Lord of the Rings!

[@franciscordon9230]

Excellent content an excellent production. Thank you.

[@davidmiddleton7958]

A disturbing thought came to me while listening to this video. Rivendel facing Sauron, the Nazghul & Durin's Bane! Scary!

[@hazbojangles2681]

Comes in at a perfect time as I only just managed to make time to watch the most recent video. Great video as always. I actually haven't read the Lord of the Rings in several years. I think it is time to read it once again. I also wondered if you would ever make a video on The Lost Road? I understand if you won't as it is not really contain anything that your channel discusses. A lot of people may have read that section located in The Fall of Númenor and not understood it.

[@piotrh2641]

One more question popped into my mind recently: do you think Gandalf could see Bilbo when he was wearing the One Ring? With him being a Maia and at least partly in the invisible world himself that would seem to be the case. He did witness Bilbo putting on the Ring on at least one occasion, but we don't know whether he saw the invisible Bilbo or not when that happened. And if Gandalf did see Bilbo - shouldn't that be a red flag all over for him, when he noticed Bilbo "shifting" to the unseen world? On that note - would High Elves be able to see Bilbo/Frodo wearing the Ring? We know that Wood Elves certainly didn't.

[@ThunderhawkVeronicaLazerwolf]

Your story telling is so fun!! Thanks!f

[@LuisAlbright]

Brilliant, enlightening, and instructive as usual.

[@RoninDave]

One thing (amongst many) that I disliked about Rings of Power was having Elrond and Galadriel present at the forging of the 3 Elven Rings. A crucial storytelling element was the shadow of doubt that hung over the Council of Elrond and the whole Ring Quest. No one was exactly sure what they were dealing with hence the several different suggestions. Going to Mordor to unmake the Ring only emerged as the best course not as a forgone conclusion. This is because no one at the Council had a part in the making of the Elven Rings. Elrond wasn't sure what would happened to the 3 given they were never touched or sullied by Sauron (something they again ruined in ROP). Those involved in the forging of the Rings had all perished a long time ago so there was no one at the Council to give them more insight into the nature of the Rings or possibly the One Ring that was tied up with them. Galadriel knew what would happened to the 3 but this had more to do with her power of sight and searching Sauron's mind than personal knowledge of the Ring forging themselves. That's what made the quest all the more brave for those on it because they moving forward into uncertainty hoping that they were on the right track.

[@Brecf2p]

No mention of Goldberry. I always the opinion that it was Goldberry who kept Tom on track on most things. He would always return to her and gave him direction. Would there have been direction of Tom in regards to The Ring. Probably not but strange the chapter doesn't involve her.

[@Enerdhil]

It's a good point. If Goldberry were a Maia, she could be corrupted by the Ring if Tom had it.

[@davidhunter1555]

I've always thought that if Elrond, of all people, describes Bombadil simply as a "strange creature" it's not worth troubling too much over trying to understand him/it. I realize the draw of the mystery but I can only throw my hands up at the decades of conjecture and let it be.

[@TheRedBook]

I agree. I don't care much for who or what Tom is. He is just Tom. I like thinking about his place in the story though, his role, especially compared with earlier versions of the Legendarium with the presence of forest spirits, etc. I like those discussions. But the "Theories about Tom Bombadil" videos are lame and don't interest me.

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude

[@piotrh2641]

First of all let me say that this channel is by far the one most in tune with the depth and breadth of Professor Tolkien's sophistication of thought and attention to detail so prevalent in his works, as compared to other channels on KZbin (of which there are several of excellent quality already). Great work, and here's hoping for an explosion of popularity to your channel! I have a question/subject related to the One Ring, which has been on my thoughts for a while. Do you think there was any being in Middle Earth who would be able to throw the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom of their own will? Some say that Elendil would do it, others that perhaps Elrond or Cirdan, but they didn't wish to cause strife with Isildur when he claimed the Ring. Much is said about the failure of first Isildur and later Frodo. However, I do not see failure there, in either case. In my reading of the text, it seems to me that no human, hobbit, dwarf of elf (or even Maia) would be able to destroy the Ring willingly. The being in question would have to possess a willpower stronger than Sauron himself, and no one in the Third age was capable of that, perhaps not even Gandalf returned. Tom Bombadil is probably out of the equation, well, because he is Tom! Please let me know your thoughts on this matter.

[@miashinbrot8388]

One thing the Council did not discuss is whether the Ring could be destroyed by throwing it into some other volcano than Mount Doom. Gandalf said it could only be destroyed by throwing it into the place it was made, but I don't recall him saying why.

[@cavetroll666]

what are the were worms of the far east that bilbo refers to in the hobbit is what keeps me up at night 😂

[@BenFrayle]

And what about one of Bilbo's ancestors having taken a Fairy wife?

[@nickolas.vicente]

@@BenFrayle I'd look at that as an evolution of Tolkien's stories. Gwendeling was a fay, and elves was synonymous with fairies.

[@BenFrayle]

@@nickolas.vicente Yes, it was a hobbit word for elves way back when.

[@JoeBlow-fp5ng]

Good one.

[@o_LL_o]

If you are standing in the Timeless Halls with new immortality & purpose beyond any corruption and possibility of evil and it was always meant to be that way, there is no need to justify allowing Sauron or anything to cause you misery and death. The misery is forgotten and the death wasn't actually true.

[@yehoshua8160]

I know it's a bit of a non sequitur but you've really made me realize just how much the adaptations coloured my thoughts on Tolkien's works, and for some reason it really didn't click until you called the eagles "Manwe's Taxi Service"

[@TheRedBook]

i think that's the case for many many people. A lot of people were introduced to Tolkien through those movies.

[@TarMody]

The Valar technically have the power to destroy the One Ring, but the point being overlooked here is that the One Ring contains more than just an object, a piece of Sauron's soul. The Valar have no permission or authority to destroy any being that has "free will" (created from the Secret Fire). Otherwise it would be clearly against Eru's will that when Ar-Pharazôn and his army set foot on Aman they did not intervene and consulted with Eru. I think this also applies to the One Ring. Perhaps this is why Gandalf thought that the One Ring would not be accepted by the Valar.

[@TheRedBook]

I don't think it was overlooked. I said: "If the Valar could and were willing to defeat Sauron this way, then surely they would have dealt with him on personal terms already, through force. They didn’t , leading me to claim that they would ---> not choose to diminish Sauron’s spirit by destroying the One Ring. "

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Happy New Year 2023

[@anchuisneoir3973]

Great stuff. I'd be very interested in a video about Bombadil. I actually find the idea that he has so many different names among different folk more interesting than who he really is (obviously this is still extremely interesting). What had he done to earn such fame? Was he known to the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost or those of Khazad Dum? Which Northern Men knew him as Orald and did he have a different name amongst other Men?

[@LifeofHum]

Please come back and make a few new videos exploring philosophical aspects of Tolkien's work. I have watched and rewatched all the videos many times 😢

[@maxvaneck1638]

i think orome represents not abiding evil or letting it go unpunished and never to ignore it

[@TheRedBook]

I agree

[@CanalTremocos]

If the Ring has no power over Tom Bombadil can he cut it? What happens if only half the ring is destroyed in mount doom?

[@TheRedBook]

No because Tom has no power over the ring. He can't harm it but it basically can't hurt him either. I don't think half of it can be destroyed. I'd guess as soon as it begins to be destroyed, there's no going back for it. It's broken.

[@artemismoonbow2475]

Taking the ring back to the Valar to solve the issue of Power and how to live free of corruption is like running back to a parent as an adult. If it is a brief respite to refit, it can be helpful, but it can infantilize or worse, create the illusion that they still have the power to solve contemporary problems. This metaphor externalizes what Tolkien mean by saying he does mythology and not allegory. The whole legendarium can be seen as the eras and cycles within our own life. A primordial age prior to cognition, a first age of growth, a long second age of maintenance, and a third age of long decline. In every stage is moral choice and a legion of strife and conflict. May we all have that final victory at Doom.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

I've been telling people for years why they couldn't use the Eagles!

[@br3030]

is there any interesting thoughts about gandalf wielding the ring as white compared to grey?

[@pCeLobster]

I wonder if, with enough time, Sauron would have eventually gained enough new power that destroying the Ring would not have defeated him so completely.

[@TheRedBook]

New power from where? Most of his power was in the One Ring. If it was bent to another or destroyed, he would not have the power left to even take shape again.

[@darthgorthaur258]

That line always got me "last as he was first" there be so much h discussion about what him being first means an generally people agree with means before even Mellor entered the world but for him to be last then he moat have the power to hold of sauron till all his army's an himself is dead making him the final one to leave.? Any ideas ?

[@catherinewhite2943]

This is my favorite chapter as well. It's one that could bring about many multi-hour discussions. As I was listening, I found myself wondering if Tolkien saw a ring-equivalent in this world. We have in Middle Earth equivalents for God, angels, devils, evil spirits, the Fall/Rebellion against God, and more. For what is the Ring an analogue? Or is there not one? I will definitely have to ponder this.

[@glennr2358]

My thoughts exactly.

[@Enerdhil]

Tolkien hated allegory in ALL its forms.

[@douglashubbard7484]

I get that Mt. Doom was chosen as being as a hot enough, and also the nearest place, to destroy the ring. But, would any volcano do? If yes, would there be a volcano more accessible?

[@weststaf673]

Would love for there to be a parallell story to read where a different choice regarding the ring was made: Gandalf, Galadriel or even Saruman wields it. I understand the point that Tolkien is making with regards to power, but it still feels like a somehwat unsatisfactory ending, in that the things we love most of Middle earth will fade away: elves, rings, magic, mystery... Yes even the conflict between pure evil and pure good will get diluted in a world dominated by men. Imagine a fourth age where the rings keep their power, and Sauron is battling an equally powerful opponent who wields his ring against him. So many fascinating stories almost write themselves in that scenario.

[@25gramsofbluesky33]

I used to think Tom might be Eru IIuvatar in disguise. I was kind of disappointed to find out in adulthood that was not the case. Im cool with it either way.

[@TheRedBook]

Still a popular theory but as you say, it's not the case. I like the enigmatic nature of Tom :)

[@nickolas.vicente]

I don't think Bombadil has to be a literal physical embodiment of Ilúvatar, which is what has been disclaimed, in order to be some kind of direct essence of Him. When reading the Ainulindalë, I always stop at the word 'echo' when Ilúvatar makes the final chord. Bombadil is always singing, it makes sense for him to be the echo.

[@christianefiorito3204]

I love your videos

[@starrshamek5449]

I was wondering if you could do a video about Gollum!

[@rrgale55]

I welcome all input and opinions. This video talks about the ring being the burden of middle earth. So I'm left to ask. Why was it ok for the valar to interfere when it came to Melkor? Why was it ok for men to join with Elves during the last alliance of Elves and men? Twice, the Elves were aided. Why do men have to prove their dominance by themselves? Sure, one could say that isuldor could have destroyed the one ring. But then again, was it not celebrimbors fault for aiding in the creation of the rings in the first place? I'd like to see a what-if video on What if the Elves of the undying lands chose to sail east to help their brothers (the second born men) in their plight against sauron.

[@rotwang2000]

I'm always baffled by the idea that who or what Bombadil actually is somehow must have an answer, that it is hidden somewhere in a margin of some note. Does it matter that much to figure out what Tom is meant to be rather than accept he is simply Tom Bombadil ?

[@TheRedBook]

A lot of people care about it but they also hate mysteries and want everything categorised and placed in a box. I'm not really like that. As I said in another comment, I like talking about Tom's role in the Legendarium, his place in the story - far more interesting than theories about if he's race A, B, or C.

[@BenFrayle]

@@TheRedBook "Whatever happened to playing a hunch, Scully? The element of surprise, random acts of unpredictability? If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

[@Yesica1993]

@@BenFrayle YAY, MULDER!

[@rotwang2000]

@@TheRedBook It feels like a modern problem to me. Look at how lots of writers and movie makers add some big secret in their story and make the reveal some kind of significant moment. In a world where most people no longer react to story itself, but to the clearly enunciated story beats, when to be sad, when to be angry, when to go out of your mind when the beat occurs. Tolkien never intended this kind of storytelling, he a mythmaker, writing in an archaic style halfway between traditional mythology and fairytales. Untold ancient stories have Tom Bombadil characters with no background information that have special abilities and power and they occur in anything from Gilgamesh all the way to Le Morte D'Arthur or most of the folk tales Perrault and the Grimm brothers so carefully collected. And if we do deconstruct him, he's basically an element from part of his mythologies that he transposed into Middle Earth. Just like he added links to the Hobbit and extended them in Lord of the Rings to make them fit in with the Silmarillion. We tend to forget that Tolkien never quite set out to write the A-Z of Middle Earth history in itself, he focused on individual tales and stories and only gradually and partially integrated them with each other. Tom Bombadil is a relic from an earlier concept where it was more a follow up to the Hobbit, than a great epic tale. How well it integrates into the story is a far more interesting debate than trying to put a pin through Tom, put him into a box with the proper label for those who love to see everything in their box with the proper label ...

[@JohnYoudell]

What a lot of words.

[@iarwainthabombadil7724]

whered the moss gatherer video go , Mr. Intel?

[@specialnewb9821]

Remember, it's Gandalf's job to get the Free Peoples to deal with the Ring themselves. So he definitely has an interest in pointing to them to idea of destroying it themselves. I'm not saying anything he said was untrue, this is something I think is one of those "reader applicable" things as opposed to "allegorical author" things. But I sometimes wonder if he might have been mistaken in shooting down alternatives. Especially as the Grey he is not perfect and has his own assumptions just like anyone else in human flesh would.

[@Davlavi]

For the algorithm.

[@Enerdhil]

I guess the only other option would be a suicide trip to visit the Dragons out East.🤔 Assuming you could find them before Sauron and his men found you. Also assuming that Dragon's fire could melt the Ring.

[@johnquestel4852]

Never did understand why it couldn't be sent to the undying lands on a ship...

[@pauldavis7146]

Should've gone to the sea first. I seriously doubt aulë couldn't unmade that ring.

[@TheRedBook]

He wouldn't unmake it, even if he could.

[@cherub3624]

One option I did notice was not discussed or even considered was diplomacy with Sauron. While Sauron may have considered it beneath him to compromise with the White Council, he was seemingly open to discussion in terms of some diplomacy, such as when he sent a representative to the lonely mountain. Perhaps not the most realistic solution to the main problem facing middle earth, but it is still surprising that someone there did not suggest trying to use the ring as leverage in a non-militaristic way. Its essentially a very powerful hostage - one that can't be destroyed obviously, but still. One could imagine the idea being proposed. Though I suppose the end result would have eventually boiled down to the same as the others.

[@TheRedBook]

An interesting idea but there are many faults with this approach. A big one is that all negotiations for Sauron would be a return of the One Ring to him. Even if Middle-earth bargained for something, Sauron could easily back out of it or (even if he honoured an agreement) he would still be a tyrant over the world. If the negotiations were to hold the ring from him and tell him to behave himself, he'd just continue his militaristic assault anyway, eventually believing one of the people holding the ring would make a claim for it as some point. Sauron would negotiate but always for his benefit. He will let a Lord stay in place but under him. He will let a land remain as it is but under the dominion of Mordor whenever it wants to use it for any purpose. No negotiation would ever have you free from Sauron. He just won't kill you. "I'll stop the war if you give up", basically.

[@michaelhansson1242]

It always bugged me that it's the longest chapter in the book but glossed over in the movies

[@TheRedBook]

I think it's one of the best examples we can use to show the shortcomings of adaptations of such works. The story always has to be pushed forward. More time is spent on a tiny chapter like Helm's Deep because of the action, compared with the likes of the Council of Elrond. Push forward constantly, linger only for a moment. Shows that film can't always do what the books do.

[@michaelhansson1242]

I agree, the movie somewhat missed the greatness of Tolkien, i rather watch 20 minutes of lore at Elronds council that 20 min of orch bashing at helms deep

[@Enerdhil]

Too bad PJ did not make a half-hour version of the Council for the extended version. They had no way to know whether people would even be interested in the extended versions until after the filming was completed

[@michaelhansson1242]

@@Enerdhil i agree it would have been a great opportunity to expand on the lore with flashbacks to the second age and so forth...

[@Enerdhil]

@@michaelhansson1242 Thank God PJ decided against adding Arwen with the Elves who fought in Helms Deep. So dumb...

[@trekstarsam2494]

I believe that Valinor would not accept it, it was the last untainted place in Arda. The valar would not have accepted something of that great evil there.

[@jamief1263]

The ring only has power over people, that it can offer something to. The ring can’t offer Tom anything, especially in his land. There are examples of the ring struggling to corrupt certain people, Frodo, Bilbo and Sam, all due to their good nature are able to resist the corruption of the ring for a long time. This is because Hobbits only really want to be able to make things grow. Something that the ring can’t do. I suspect that the smiths of Valinor could have destroyed the ring. I am unsure they would have destroyed it, but it would at least have avoided a war between Valinor and Middle-Earth.

[@bobsingh7949]

But why? Why could Tom not defend his land against the full might of Sauron lusting for his Ring? Why?

[@tombombadill22]

Gandalf did not appreciate or understand the power of Tom at the time of the Council. He did later on though , after he was brought back as Gandalf the White. He is therefore a spoiler and speaks in error re Tom, based only on supposition and rumour.

[@TheRedBook]

What did he say during the Council that was wrong about Tom?

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

A Year Apart.

[@rgaleny]

see the nature of ungoliant. bombadil is her counter part

[@TheRedBook]

Just one of many fan theories

[@ellietobe]

The hobbits and the human beings would die but Gandalf had already been in Middle Earth for over a generation. He had a much longer lifespan in Middle Earth than anyone other than some of the Elves. It seems that Gandalf wanted to get his job over with so he could go home. I don’t suppose that Gandalf enjoyed being in that old man disguise of his. Probably a few hundred years more was not something he looked forward to. He wanted to get this job over with. Did he at any time believe that the plan would work?

[@mrillis9259]

I always figured Tom, was the original Dark, Lord.

[@mrillis9259]

Who says that Sauron, would come for Tom, last? Did I imagine that? May read this again over Christmas.

[@TheRedBook]

Na, Tom speaks of Melkor coming in from the outside while he was already in Middle-earth.

[@TheRedBook]

I quote that in the video, it is from Glorfindel :)

[@mrillis9259]

@@TheRedBook I always figured oldest an fatherless, met up enough with the Simil, where Morgoth, was first to pass into the new world. Maybe he spoke of himself in the 3rd person. Its tough to say, maybe there is no answer?

[@BenFrayle]

@@mrillis9259 I think this is where they hypothesised what might happen if they gave the Ring to Tom for safekeeping. Sauron would overwhelm the rest of the world and eventually would have to deal with Tom in some manner to reclaim his ring. But that wouldn't be much help to the rest of the peoples of Middle Earth.

[@MountainFisher]

I never saw why the Ring belonged to Middle Earth when a Maia from Valinor and Aule's pupil made it. It should be Aule's problem who I don't doubt could destroy the Ring even if he had to take it personally to Mt Doom. Sauron could not stop a Vala.

[@BenFrayle]

The Vala saw it differently. And remember when they had intervened directly on Arda there had always been catastrophic consequences.

[@edwardokaa]

The issue to my mind isn't that the Valar wouldn't take on the task of destroying it, rather that the council couldn't accept the risk that they mightn't. If the Valar refused, they might have destroyed the ship (letting Sauron win by default) or they'd turn the party back, leading us back to square one but with a now much longer and more perilous journey to Mordor.

[@BenFrayle]

@@edwardokaa What you are saying essentially is that the Council should have just prayed for help and hoped for the best.

[@TheRedBook]

Aule isn't responsible for Sauron's actions, I don't know why everyone blames him for the choices made by Sauron. Free will is a thing.

[@Enerdhil]

Eru is obviously not allowing the Valar to get directly involved, so it doesn't matter if Aulë could destroy the Ring or not.

[@gmcoates63]

It’s a pity that the comments come in mid Word and do not respect the content at all

[@TheRedBook]

What do you mean?

[@juusovuolle8251]

Aulë should maybe take some responsibility that both of his pupils fell to darkness and one of them being Sauron who made the One Ring. I mean it's not that type of a story. And Tolkien really wanted to tell a story about sauron wanting to be worshipped as god king. Which was heretical towards Eru. And that God through means not understood by men organized certain events in the background that eventually lead to the destruction of the forces of evil. After all it would be a different type of a story indeed if the Istari were to travel to the ultimate west and then Aulë would smelt the One Ring.

[@TheRedBook]

You'll like my episode 2 of the Podcast where I say Aulë should not be blamed for the choices of two of his pupils. Hope you can check it out, I go into quite some detail about it.

[@Enerdhil]

Definitely listen to Episode Two of the podcast. I was kind of on the fence in regard to Aulë's culpability in regard to Sauron and Saruman's behavior before I listened to that podcast. Steven is very convincing and he brings the "receipts."

[@UnderhillKoufax]

No excuses. The Valar and Eru Iluvatar were negligent and even cruel. After all, why create a system that allows millions/billions to suffer, and then do nothing for so long while they suffer? Negligent and cruel.

[@anglerfish4161]

I mean, you can certainly think that, but somehow I feel like hitting a Catholic writer's mythology with the Problem of Evil stick will make his work more understandable.

[@BenFrayle]

I take it you are in favour of mass euthanasia then? Why allow suffering?

[@UnderhillKoufax]

@@anglerfish4161, I love Tolkien’s mythology, but the logic of the Valar and Eru Iluvatar being all loving and powerful does not hold up to scrutiny.

[@BenFrayle]

​@@UnderhillKoufax Who has ever claimed that the Valar and Eru are all loving and all powerful? I think you are projecting your Sunday School fantasies onto a different fantasy world.

[@UnderhillKoufax]

@@BenFrayle. Your logic is backwards. Pointing out the flawed logic of the Valar and Iluvatar creating billions of people and then abandoning them to suffer under Dark Lords is not promoting euthanasia. It is pointing out the hypocrisy and cruelty of the Valar and Iluvatar.