The Dark Side of Hydrogen Cars

[@Whole_Leash_It]

Thank you for pointing out that the transportation of hydrogen gas and gasoline adds to the emissions. So many leave that very important detail out.

[@lemongavine]

Right. They act like gasoline magically appears at the pump

[@chaunceysnodgress3672]

But don’t forget the part where he said transportation for hydrogen would be hydrogen and therefore, zero emissions.

[@bryanhood9839]

​@@chaunceysnodgress3672It would still take a truck and all its maintenance and the person to drive it, plus the pumping equipment to fill the truck and the pumping equipment to fill the station from the truck, once wires are installed they're pretty low maintenance and no driver required!

[@JamilLynch]

Or just make the hydrogen at the pump

[@lemongavine]

@@JamilLynch you make it sound so simple

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

The closest hydrogen station where I live is 300 km (~185 miles) from home. I prefer charging at home.

[@busog97641]

Wow! You would use up all of your km/miles just getting to and from the station.

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

@@busog97641 and it's even out of service waiting for parts. At least next week too..

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

@@busog97641 I often argue, that if they want to build a demand for hydrogen, they need to build vehicles that can use the charging infrastructure as backup. Minimum 100 km realistic range, DC and AC chargiing. Then you can at least limp between the stations, if it's far, if not, you're stuck.

[@davidgutting4317]

@@thorbjrnhellehaven5766 I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you’re not going to install an at home hydrogen charging system.

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

@@davidgutting4317 You're right, I definitely won’t be installing a hydrogen system at home-it would have to be a fueling setup anyway, not a charging system. What I was getting at, though, was the convenience of charging an EV at home versus having to drive out of the way to refuel a hydrogen vehicle.

[@glenjones172]

The first time I heard about hydrogen powered vehicles, I was in middle school. I am now 56 years old and I’ve been waiting a long time for hydrogen to be a popular thing and it is not. And that is why I drive a Tesla. 😊

[@subwarpspeed]

Exactly. Hydrogen fuel-cell cars will take over in 10 years. And the start count for these "10 years" is always moving forward...

[@kritasto2813]

Why Tesla? Better use one of those nuclear fussion cars ,also promised within 10 years .

[@sjsomething4936]

One of the reasons that petroleum companies are getting on the hydrogen bandwagon is because it is yet another consumable that they can keep you hooked on. They also want to deliver it via the same piping as natural gas, with a separation mechanism at the consumption point. Believe it or not, some company has even gone to the trouble of creating a hydrogen home filling station (I seem to recall about a $12k price tag) for fueling up your vehicles. What could possibly go wrong there, with the potential for metal embrittlement, poor maintenance, miniature leaks etc.? 🤷‍♂️ I suspect the long term plan is to suggest hydrogen as a way to heat or power your home as well, since it’d already be coming there. Jason from Engineering Explained has done a great video debunking the hydrogen car nonsense, you should link it in your video.

[@nickwinn7812]

In the UK Worcester Bosch have been banging on about hydrogen boilers for home heating for years LOL. All of their new boilers are apparently "hydrogen ready". Good luck on getting any green hydrogen from source (what source?) to UK homes in the current gas supply grid is all I can say!

[@GruffSillyGoat]

@@nickwinn7812 - a lot of hydrogen ready boilers in the UK actually mean 'hydrogen-blend' ready as the plans are to introduce upto 20% hydrogen into current natrual gas network. How this will actually work when there are millions of homes using boilers, stoves and ovens that are not hydrogen-blend ready is anyones guess. I suspect the 20% level is one whereby most equipment will function as if operating without any hydrogen in the gas blend, and the 'hydrogen-blend' ready is just marketing to normalise peoples expectations and acceptance of hydrogen potentially being in the mix. The industry is working on 100% hydrogen-ready scheme and the boilers are still in development (according to British Gas) and that 100% hydrogen is "much further down the line".

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Also, 100% hydrogen is not going that well in the UK, the two planned live trials in England didn't occur due to community opposition, lack of buy in (even with financial incentives) and concerns about risks. The one is Scotland got embroiled in a bit of a scandal as they refused to release explosion testing findings because the results could “damage participation”, “undermine funding”, and threaten the “continued viability” of the project. Eventually it took a freedom of information request plus pressure from the press to release the report along with the supporting video. However, the company involved put the video on YT as a non-searchable one, and without a thumbnail on their channel. But again the press provided the link.

[@Rockall57]

Never happen so no worries there..😂

[@junkerzn7312]

Pretty much summarizes all my own pet peeves about Hydrogen. And I would say it is now too late for Hydrogen anyway. Battery costs have fallen to such a degree that hydrogen has less than a zero chance of ever being competitive, even with scale. Meanwhile, I'm fueling my EV mostly with power I produce myself from my solar panels and my wife complains to me every day that she constantly forgets to gas-up our one remaining ICE vehicle because she's gotten used to just plugging the EV in at home. Soon as real highway ranges flip past 400-500 miles for regular BEVs (not just a Lucid Air), our last ICE vehicle will be gone too. There's no going back. -Matt

[@allencrider]

California's largest H2 fuel retailer, True Zero, which operates 37 of the 53 hydrogen filling stations in the state, recently hiked the price of H2 at all its pumps to $36/kg, up from around $30/kg. As recently as April 2021, it was charging just $13.14 per kilo.

[@Terkini-pr1nj]

@@allencrider why hydrogen price increase so highly ?

[@PaleBlueDotCitizen]

The early assertion that a benefit of hydrogen cars is good range is completely incorrect due to the physical space the hydrogen fuel tanks take up in the car. The Mirai has no interior space for passengers or luggage as all the room is filled with tanks to achieve that 300 mile range.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Indeed, this is even more marked in the light commercial vehicle sector, the bulk and weight of the hydrogen systems eats into cargo space and efficiency on the small number of hydrogen LCVs availabel. The extra bulk eats into the bottom line operating revenues of running these vehicles meaning they are less cost effective than battery based (or indeed ICE based) LCVs. Even in transportation service, such as busses, hydrogen is more costly - with many bus operators around the world dropping hydrogen busses in favour of battery based ones. In places where political pressure is sustain hydrogen buse usage (Paris for example), the operating companies are complaining that fueling costs of hydrogen busses are 70% higher than their older diesel ones (and even more costly than battery based ones), and the overall purchase and operating costs prices are 42% higher. In the HGV/trunk space manufacturers have been shifting from hydrogen to batteries as the energy capacity/distance difference has evaporated with improvements in battery technology and the purchase/operating costs are also much lower. Scania has dropped hydrogen completely recently to focus solely on battery power as the planned replacement to their diesel powered HGVs.

[@IronmanV5]

Add in that hydrogen leaks THROUGH the walls of containers and will embrittle most materials. Hence why stainless steel, which is made with nickel and cobalt, and carbon fiber are used.

[@kensmith5694]

Hydrogen makes iron based metals brittle. Most other things it doesn't. Aluminum loses some toughness but the softer alloys do fine with hydrogen. Most plastics, it just walks right through leaving them undisturbed. Polyamide is an exception. Hydrogen doesn't seem to get through it quickly. A lot of hydrogen tanks use an aluminum liner on the inside and then the composite for strength around that.

[@anthonylosego]

I suppose I could put my enemies in the back seat and hope I don't die as well when the tank gives out. lol

[@edouglasroche]

To be fair to hydrogen cars, it did make sense exploring hydrogen cars initially as a backup plan for if EVs did not work out. In 2008 it cost 100k dollars for the batteries in the tiny original Tesla roadster to go slightly over 200 miles and we had over 150 years of snail pace battery improvements. While there was excitement we could finally jumpstart a battery revolution with the much higher battery demand and breakthroughs in manufacturing, it is not crazy at the time to plan for battery innovation to fail again. But since that battery breakthrough did happen, hydrogen vehicles no longer make sense.

[@TheLinuxExperience]

I would tend to agree, but hydrogen car initiatives have been ongoing for decades, with pretty much negligible progress. The technology is nothing new and its limitations are well-known, and it´s not like there is much room to improve... They are hitting the limits of materials, temperature and pressure. I think in most cases, hydrogen for cars is simply a scam, lobbying by those with something (or a lot) to lose with the coming of BEVs.

[@edouglasroche]

To be clear, I am not saying the people still pushing hydrogen cars are not effectively scamming people. I am simply saying it started out as a worthwhile cause. Reminds me of the expression “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”

[@tribalypredisposed]

@@edouglasroche Before lithium batteries, prior to 1990, EVs truly were not feasible. So working on hydrogen made sense in the 1960-1990 period especially. But now it is all sunk cost fallacy and scam.

[@erktrek]

@@tribalypredisposed It's being used as a distraction while hybrids are being pushed by the legacy folks as the only appropriate near term solution.

[@davidmenasco5743]

I think it was more likely the other way around. If oil companies were investing in (and promoting) hydrogen technologies, it was not to save the world in the event that EVs didn't work out. Rather, it was to save the oil companies, in the event that EVs were successful.

[@cbmecheng]

Ben, I worked as an engineer on h2 fuel systems and components for a so cal company in the early 2000s. We did Arnold’s hummer conversion. I worked on several oem projects. I think this was a curiosity when battery tech wasn’t there yet. Now it is. Why use electricity to make/isolate h2, compress and store, then refuel, when you can just use electricity. Elon says “the best part is no part. The best process is no process”. By the way, 70MPa (10153 psi) is no joke to test/play with. These pressures are required to reach acceptable range. Temp is also an issue. The tanks get hot when you fill them. In small UAV applications where weight is critical it may be a viable option. Otherwise IMO it’s a science experiment.

[@craig8638]

I’ve heard it said that a better use for fossil fuels would be to create electricity and plants and then use it to cars. That seems to be your premise. Plus using fossil fuels of at central locations seems a better bet since you have more control over it instead of millions of cars running around spewing smoke and dripping oil.

[@cbmecheng]

@@craig8638 yes it does seem silly to have millions of mobile powerplants (converting chemical energy to kinetic inefficiently ) driving around vs fewer centralized plants. Yes, take a look at any parking lot at how much oil is on the ground. Ends up in the ocean. Just the truth.

[@BenSullinsOfficial]

Thanks for sharing!

[@cbmecheng]

@@BenSullinsOfficial been following you since your first model S. Thanks

[@georgepal9154]

@@cbmecheng if the system efficiency was higher, if the fuel cell was made of something safer and more practically energy dense, if the economic viability was better than its BEV counterpart, it could have worked. It didn't even have to be hydrogen. But they fell short in all 3 of those places so now they have become big oil's 2nd favorite scam next to carbon capture.

[@nicholasrigg8999]

I love this new series on debunking EV myths and media misinformation! Keep 'em coming!

[@jamesheartney9546]

The Oceangate disaster has been in the news again recently. That was the implosion of a submersible which was heading to the wreck of the Titanic underwater, carrying tourists. If you look at the details of what happened, it's mind-boggling. The submersible's pressure vessel collapsed in miliseconds, converting all occupants from living humans to a liquid slurry in milliseconds. This happened at a depth in the ocean where the pressure was about 400 bar. That pressure is so high that thick, powerful walls barely keep the forces in check, and any failure is instantaneously fatal. At 400 bar. What's the pressure in a fuel cell electric vehicle's (FCEV) fuel tank? 700 bar. Widespread deployment of FCEVs mean there'd be hundreds of thousands of these high pressure containment vessels everywhere. Getting involved in crashes. Getting filled and emptied constantly, causing fatigue and wear to their connectors. Many being neglected by careless owners, getting rusty and old. Containing pressures nearly twice as high as those that obliterated the Oceangate submersible in milliseconds.

[@petesig93]

Indeed. Quite remarkable that people are so foolish to not ask that question. Or the one about how you deal with the alternate proposition - keeping the H2 temperature down to minus 256C and handling it, transporting it, all while keeping it that cold 🤔

[@jsanders100]

Good point Ben, strange that the ICE conspiracy theorist’s never mention that electricity is becoming decentralised. At the moment EV charging is a rip off (or maybe it’s funding the investment) but the future for cheap electricity you generate yourself or buy from whom you want, is bright.

[@jsanders100]

Yes, so where’s your evidence it’s not going to happen?

[@makisekurisu4674]

For those who want freedom from the volatile oil market and also the crazy government this decentralization is a big win.

[@Guvament_bs]

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe is like the statement that renewable energy is free. And the Hydrogen in your Hydrogen car would go up like the Hindenburg is true if you store your Hydrogen in a canvas bag.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

In essence battery EVs are hydrogen powered already, since renewable energy directy/indirectly comes from the great flaming hydrogen ball in the sky, it's just they're more efficient at it than trying to create/capture and repeat the use of hydrogen to generate electricity on Earth yet again. Perhaps not a Hindenburg but hydrogen at 700bar - twice the pressure found at the average ocean depth around the world - would become a blow tourch if the vessels are punctured and the escaping gas ignited. Although, if the vessel is ruptured/split the gas would likely become more of a fireball when ignited.

[@jamesbecker4326]

great video. I have been trying to explain to people how wasteful, not green, and expensive hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are. Most are just clueless

[@deanmcmanis9398]

Strangely, I actually live close to several hydrogen refilling stations. And yet hydrogen fuel cell EVs are not very compelling. I have solar and a battery on my home, which makes BEVs an even better deal. And it is VERY convenient to simply charge overnight while I sleep. For a couple bucks. I don't think that it is devastating that FCEVs failed, but it is unfortunate. Japanese automakers like Toyota and Honda invested millions in hydrogen, but the technology was waiting for a technological breakthrough in green H2 production, transportation/storage, and efficiency that never came. So I see local hydrogen at $32/kg, or about $150 to go 300 miles. Compared to $20 to go the same distance using grid supplied electricity, and far less using solar.

[@TheWinstn60]

A Hydrogen fueled vehicle has to vent the gas as it heats up slowly from its extreme cold and pressure otherwise it would just blow up. BMW found this out years and years ago after a couple of weeks the cars were basically empty

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Indeed BMW have spun this issue as a "benefit" in their HGV/truck systems, using a lower pressure capture vessel ahead of the storage vessels. Claiming this enables HGVs to operate more efficiently from the cold, which has an element of truth to the statement but disguises the underlying issue. The downside is the trucks have to travel 100's miles first thing everyday to use up the captured expanded hydrogen else it becomes lost to the atmosphere. The other point not mentioned that much is that hydrogen itself is a greenhouse gas, 11 times more potent than CO2 as it delays the atmospheric decomposition of methane.

[@sujanpokharel5459]

Future of transportation is horse

[@jokulhaups309]

And Hyperloop!! Oh wait a minute….

[@Jcewazhere]

Bicycle.

[@BenSullinsOfficial]

About the same emissions as a corvette!

[@DanBurgaud]

I charge my EV using my Solar Panels + Batteries. ICE lovers can piss on their gas tanks...

[@davidgutting4317]

Drop a lit cigarette at an EV charging station, nothing. At a gas station, maybe giant fire. At a hydrogen station with a leak, crater. Which do you think will be preferred by an insurance agency, local community, large populated area? If you want a golf cart for local travel, hydrogen is overkill.

[@kensmith5694]

A cigarette won't ignite a pool of gasoline. Try a lit match for your line about safety

[@jokulhaups309]

Touch gas, nothing happens. Touch hydrogen, nothing happens. Touch electricity, you more than likely die. Since we are making stupid arguements

[@Globalscanningeyes]

​​@@jokulhaups309lol,touching gas can cause skin irritation and touching hydrogen can cause burns.

[@Globalscanningeyes]

​@@orionbetelgeuse1937it's not hydrogen gas being sold in those stations, it's liquid hydrogen.

[@davidgutting4317]

@@jokulhaups309 try to touch the electricity? Any charging station, In the rain, soaking wet, go on, try, don’t say it, your words have no value, no one wanted your opinion, your actions are all that are real.

[@JonathanMorris777]

We have 6 places in the UK to get Hydrogen.

[@gt_kenny]

Any time I see anti EV guys saying Hydrogen is superior, my soul leaves my body.

[@guyboisvert66]

They don't have a clue... and there's an army of bots spearing out anti-EV crap.

[@makaheng]

@@gt_kenny 😂

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Yep, and when you explain to them that the hydrogen isn't being burned and FCEV's are a class of battery system just one where the hydrogen isn't a fuel but an inefficient mechanism for providing electricty, and that the battery is spread out all over the car, taking up more space and the car often weighs more than BEV/ICEV they go into denial mode. It seems many anti-EV types just have a additive need for refueling, seeking to want to waste their time minutes on end babysitting a car whilst it feeds.

[@guyboisvert66]

@@GruffSillyGoat Yeah, crap pushed mainly by bots and lie campaign... and some dummies parroting...

[@georgepal9154]

Omg. Yes. Finally. I'm so glad you're covering this.

[@juancarrera5524]

Lots of folks worry about hv battery pack replacement. I don’t hear many people concerned about periodic maintenance and repair of high pressure vessels.

[@dallasdrew2390]

Great video Ben !!!

[@davidmenasco5743]

Yes, very well done! 👍

[@punditgi]

Excellent presentation! Go, EVs!

[@joejimmy8088]

السيارات التى تعمل بالوقود الهيدروجين فكرة غبية جدا العالم ليس لديهم محطات الوقود الهيدروجين لكن الكل لدية كهرباء في منازلهم

[@brucec954]

The most performance critical application of all is rockets. Hydrogen is the highest thrust per weight fuel there is so NASA used it on the Shuttle main engine (with solid boosters for first stage). However, all commercial rockets use Kerosene or (Nat Gas in case of Starship) because even though Hydrogen is higher performance, it’s too much trouble to deal with. Recently, NASA SLS rocket was having delays from Hydrogen leaks. So Hydrogen makes no sense for cars and light trucks.

[@rollerdragon]

when shell stated they would be stopping the 'roll-out' of hydrogen stations... i knew for sure they are bunk.. just not wanting to drive an H-Bomb... i want a rivian... or a good conversion kit.

[@devonbikefilms]

Just came across your channel and I really enjoy your approach to addressing the FUD with actual facts about EVs and the supporting infrastructure as we transition to an electric future, not just with transport.

[@lyubomirkopanov6595]

Another fun fact - the cost to build an EV charging station, where multiple cars may charge at the same time - ~$200k; the price to build a hydrogen station, where JUST ONE car may charge at a given time - ~$2M !!!

[@makisekurisu4674]

why not add the cost for gas pump too?

[@daveladd99]

I would ask that you add some data (which I can’t provide, at this time…) about how many kg of H2, a typical tanker can haul. Consider that a kg of H2 contains the same energy as a gallon of gas. Do the math. You cannot use the same tanker that you used for gasoline transport for three significant reasons; 1) it needs to be cryogenic, AND/OR at extreme pressures; 2) H2 is the leakiest gas on the planet because it’s small, so every tank, and pipe has to be super-sized and 3) H2 causes Stress Corrosion Cracking due to embrittlement of steels (It requires Expensive, metals as materials of construction. I’d be surprised if it didn’t take 6 over the road trucks of H2 to replace 1 OTR truck of gasoline. You’re driving down the 6 lane highway flanked by twin trucks carrying 10 kpsi bottles of H2. Your life flashes before your eyes but then you realize you have 3 very similar bottle of rocket fuel under the floorboards of your car. Relax! If anything goes wrong, it’ll be over so fast you’ll never hear the explosion…. My next car will be an EV.

[@xivix6710]

For EVs you need infrastructure to support charging, specially for countries with 110V standard as it has less potential energy compared to 240V which makes it less efficient. So yes, we have electricity everywhere, but for countries with low potential e.g. 110V it will be harder to implement compared to countries with 240V, and will require more government investment.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

1:55 it’s not in the room I’m in right now. Power’s out during this hurricane. But yeah, every hour yesterday I was surrounded by working power outlets that I could charge anything from. Folks on the news were complaining that they couldn’t find a gas station that’s still open to fill up before the storm. I just plugged in.

[@AlanLamb-p4p]

I ran an industrial H2 plant in Long Beach, CA. It takes a ton of water,Natural Gas and energy during the Steam/methane reforming process. FYI…

[@craig8638]

Not sure how hydrogen makes sense when it is mostly made from natural gas and takes a lot of energy to produce. You are right about the auto and oil industry wanting to keep us addicted to oil.

[@RobertDWF]

Hey - This is one of my favorite topics and I have some insight into the development of HFC cars. Back in 2009 as a volunteer for GM's Project Driveway, I got to drive a HFC car for 3 months as my personal vehicle. Also, since I worked at Warner Bros. at the time, I refueled at the nearby GM research center where I would occasionally chat with the engineers who had been working on the project from day one. Before I get into what I learned, here are a couple of things to know upfront. First, 90% of what you've said is absolutely true. Second, when it came time for me to buy a new car recently, I considered a HFC car - since I live in California - but chose an Ioniq 6 EV instead. Mostly because I don't know if I'll be staying in CA for the next 10 years and the convenience of charging at home. To understand HFC development, you have to all the way back to around 2000. Plug-in EVs didn't exist. Prius was the only hybrid in the US and Governments around the world were mandating zero emission cars. So when the governments sat down with automakers, the car companies said, "If we spend the money on R&D to develop HFC cars, we need guarantees from you that go across administrations that there will be a Hydrogen Infrastructure to support them." Germany, Japan, California and I think Hawaii agreed, so GM got to work. They spent $1 billion dollars to make 106 HFC Chevy Equinoxes. That frame was chosen because it had enough room to hold the 3 fuel tanks. Much of what they learned is in your EVs today because whether an EV has a battery or a HFC, it's still an EV. If you were an engineer back in 2000 looking at just the academic choice of HFC vs Batteries, you can make a very good case for HFC. As one of the Hydrogen engineers told me, "Sure, a battery is more efficient, but you can't charge it up to 100% and it loses efficiency below 20% so you're basically carrying around 50% of a very heavy battery that's just dead weight." I didn't bother to ask him about the large battery the HFC had to assist from 0-10 MPH. As for the safety issue - Ben, Ben, Ben... you're normally so good, but you're doing to Hydrogen what the ICE people are doing to Batteries. Yes, ALL energy storage is dangerous. Batteries burn, Gasoline Explodes, and Hydrogen goes up into in the atmosphere at 45 miles per hour. In fact of the 3, Hydrogen is probably the safest because of it's biggest downfall as an energy storage system - it has an extremely low energy density. The HFC tanks had to pass all the same safety tests as a gas tank, which they did. The engineers hinted that they actually did better than gasoline. When I asked why they don't promote that they'd grimace and say, "We still sell gas cars." That brings me to the common type of paranoid that many of my fellow liberals have about "Big" companies. Big Oil. Big Auto. Big Pharma. News flash, there are 8.2 Billion on the planet. Everything we do is going to be big. Corporations are just that, collections of incorporated companies. Each one of those companies under the big tent are people desperately trying to hold onto their jobs. In this case, the SVP of Alternative Fuel Vehicles for GM is one of the biggest advocates of green technology you'll ever meet - except for maybe his counterparts at Chevron. If you want a shock, look up what company poured in more research into green technology than any other company or country. In the early 2000's it was Big Oil Chevron. When GM announced their newest Electric Motor - which would end up in the Volt - we Project Driveway Volunteers were invited. It was there that the aforementioned SVP said, "We are effectively out of oil now (2009)." He went on to explain the theory of Peak Oil and that it takes 50 years to change an energy/economy. This is one reason why when Trump offered to lift the fuel efficiency mandates put on by other administrations, the car companies said, Thanks, but no thanks. It's also why the US is producing more oil now than in past years. It's an indication that Saudi Arabia is hitting Peak Economic Oil and that the price of gas will soon go through the roof. So... while you might think Big Oil is pushing Hydrogen - maybe they are - but they also know their days are numbered and they need to transition to being Big Energy if they want to survive. Anyway - point being - in the sterile environment of engineering, Hydrogen isn't as bad as you say. But in the real world, you can't beat charging at home.

[@davidbeal6925]

Loving this new line of videos. Some of this I was aware of. But lots of new info. Thanks for another great video Ben.

[@cayrex]

On point! Soon we will have a batteries that will be able to charge from grid like at home for example. Or you will be able to go to the refilling station which will swap the used discharged electrolyte with fresh charget one.

[@johnreese3762]

Another great one Ben, thanks! Our local utility, SMUD, offers a special rate, off peak, for charging EVs, so we charge our Tesla at home while we sleep!

[@thereplacementfordisplacement]

Hydrogen transportation has always been a dumb idea. People have life long careers in Hydrogen which is unfortunate because they could have been helping with the battery revolution, total waste of money and potential. Thanks George Bush.

[@Geckogold]

You can blame the Japanese government too. Since they have no oil deposits they can exploit, they funded hydrogen heavily in an attempt to make it a viable alternative to oil and reduce how much they have to import every year.. Toyota is chasing that money, and has convinced California to try it out too. And reality is that it's not working out well because of the problems Ben mentioned in this video. And if they don't get more serious about BEV's, China and Tesla are going to steal a lot of market share/sales away from them.

[@Jaw0lf]

I have been saying this for years but you put it in a great way to understand. All of the background fuel to create hydrogen is enormous. Storage and dispensing is expensive and potentially dangerous, as is the transportation. Hydrogen production at a high power usage factory, so on site is a possibility, but that is how far I see it going.

[@mortenduus4095]

BMW said it right in the late 90's "the world is not ready for hydrogen cars" the question is when is it. I still believe the time will come.

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🙋‍♂️THANKS BEN FOR SPEAKING 🗣️ OUT 💚💚💚

[@RC-hn8sj]

Most people don’t know that you still need electric motors, inverters and batteries even when using a Hydrogen fuel cell in a vehicle. The battery might be smaller but you are adding the weight and inefficiencies of the fuel cell. Plus you have to make the hydrogen and transported.

[@wesbishop3790]

Hopefully Airbus can do a better job at storing the hydrogen than they did with the Hindenburg. Great info as always! Thanks!!

[@kensmith5694]

Fun fact: The doping material on the skin of the Hindenburg was basically rocket fuel. That is what ignited. The flames you could see are not what hydrogen does when it burns. Hydrogen makes a flame you can't see in sunlight and it is hard to see at night even. If you fill something like a balloon with an ideal hydrogen oxygen mixture and ignite it at night it still isn't very bright but the BANG will be heard a long way off.

[@JasonMatte]

There's also the problem of hydrogen embrittlement on the car engine itself. It's a big problem the hydrogen industry is ignoring.

[@BudahOfBirmingham]

Thank you Ben, brilliant presentation. I shall be using all of it

[@onederment]

Wait for the membrain replacement... that's almost the value of the car

[@fixedG]

For a long time, I've thought the R&D spent on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles were really just small test beds for larger scale use cases that don't have the same drawbacks they have in private vehicles, like back-up generators for buildings, cargo ship engines or maybe certain trucking implementations or buses.

[@ryanevans2655]

The fundamental problem with both ICE and hydrogen is that you have to create/extract the fuel forever, for every instant the engine/cell runs. Whereas with EVs, there’s at least a hypothetical future steady-state where materials used in solar, batteries, wind*, hydro, etc, can be recycled and used for another 20-30 years, creating a closed loop of materials. (Maybe a small exception could be power from nuclear plants, but it doesn’t seem like there’s much concern out there for the quantities of mining for nuclear fuel rods. And who knows, we could figure out recycling there too.) *wind needs a technology change/breakthrough in either the blade material science or the recycling process, or both, but I don’t see that as an impossible innovation at all.

[@Smith_Tech_70]

Nice one Ben. This is exactly what we need to fight the FUD. Unreal, the amount of people that still think hydrogen is the future. It doesn't help, when the legacy auto makers have a hydrogen car on a stand at a motor show. Why even bother? Obviously, they've received an "incentive" to do so.

[@durwoodmaccool890]

Good video. Both Micheal Barnard and Micheal Leibreich (Hydrogen Ladder) have done a lot of work on this as well.

[@richarda3659]

If you own a Toyota Mirai in Northern California (the Mirai is actually a really, really nice Hydrogen car), it will cost over $200 to fill up the "tank", getting you around 350+ miles of range. All the nearby refueling stations have closed, leaving just one at the airport and one 8 miles away over a bridge with a high toll. Anyone selling a Mirai here basically can't, so it seems hydrogen cars are only practical in LA. The Mirai has been for sale since around 2017, so this is not really anything new - sales appear to be falling, not increasing.

[@martrich1098]

Ben - this is a great video and I really admire your recent EV myth-busting videos. Hydrogen is strange because people seem to think it will save the internal combustion engine - a myth that is quietly reinforced by oil companies because it distracts from transition to BEVs. I was recently at an energy storage exhibition in Shanghai and it was notable that a lot of the manufacturers of battery storage systems are now moving into adding hydrogen generation systems to their portfolio of products - they expect that these will be sold to complement renewable electricity generation and storage systems ("green hydrogen"). So while hydrogen cars may never be feasible or practical, hydrogen is unlikely to be going away anytime soon and may have markets powering ships or district heating schemes, maybe rail in some places.

[@2LegHumanist]

It's only faster to refuel an FCEV if you're first in line. The system has to repressurise after each delivery and that takes neatly an hour.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Sounds ideal, gives plenty of time for the first car to defrost the pump's nozzle that was freeze locked onto the car during refilling.

[@mikesmith2682]

Like most people, Ben misses the difference between primary energy and useful energy. A gas car powered by a coal or gas power plant is about 60% efficient. He also misses the cost, in primary energy, of making the H2. His answer is right. He just gets there the wrong way.

[@conradfuller6697]

Excellent video Ben! Please consider doing a video debunking the myth of ‘EVs are sooooo expensive’. Purchase costs have dropped very significantly and running costs are extremely low.

[@theopana]

One crazy point that wasn't mentioned is the number of cars that a hydrogen fueling station can serve per day. I remember the number is around 10 but need to double check

[@pacohoratio]

This video is exactly like the arguments against against EVs 10 years ago. H2 will surpass BEVs in the next 30 years.

[@RickThompson-e4p]

What's the view concerning the apparent arrival of solid state batteries? Will these further reduce the range and charge time concerns as advertised?

[@LightsOnMultiMediaMindArts]

Good presentation. I will bookmark it to refer friends who are hydrogen advocates.

[@thearlongpark]

The big problem for hydrogen fuel cell car apart from the complexity and hydrogen station infrastructure requirement is the existence of PHEV. For those people that want long range vehicle and do not want to wait for EV while charging on the road, they would simply just buy PHEV vehicle. Hydrogen fuel cell cars do not offer any advantage compared to PHEV vehicles so no incentives/reasons for people to buy them considering PHEV vehicles can easily use existing infrastructure.

[@milowhite539]

Ben what are your thoughts on the Canadian company Edison Motors? The diesel hybrid semi and retro kits for pickup trucks. They are working with deboss garage also!

[@joweb1320]

This is likely your best video ever. Thanks! Nicely done.

[@BenSullinsOfficial]

Wow, thanks!

[@davidsonkeith8465]

As much as I really liked the off-road Extreme E racing and it's being cancelled in favour of having H2 only off-road, I'm going to watch this Extreme H just to see how it rolls (pun intended). I think they'll use compressed H2 and not in its liquified form but I don't know how they'll get the supplies from on board their ship to the pit area. Plus the H2 can leak through tanks and dispensing H2 soon after a previous user has left the pump be careful not to touch the very cold metal nozzle! With today's technology (and politico-corporate mischief) I'm not convinced. I agree with your points raised, Ben. Extreme E, RIP. It was bloody good fun.

[@EuphoricBloodLust]

I want a hydrogen vehicle because filling one is the same process that's been established for decades: attach filler, squeeze trigger, wait a few minutes or less for it to fill, remove filler, pay for it, drive off. On top of that, for the sake of example: a hydrogen fuel cell has a given capacity (let's say 50 litres)... it is never going to change under normal circumstances (that is, without modification/upgrades) whereas a 50kW EV battery bank, in time, will lower in capacity over time (nature of the tech, and while I concede that the tech is improving that degradation will never hit zero) The reason I don't have a hydrogen car: none on the market here, much less filling stations (it's a chicken and egg problem: no point building the infrastructure if there's no/few units to utilize it and no point buying the vehicles if there's no/little infrastructure to support them)

[@Bonta768]

Ben, love all your videos. Transportation of H is key, but did you seperate the numbers for H combustion cars and H fuel cell cars?

[@BenSullinsOfficial]

I don’t believe so, are there many of either out there?

[@Bonta768]

@@BenSullinsOfficial Don't think so 😅

[@stevencole7331]

The reason EVs became the alternative to Petro is Tesla building of its supercharging network . When it was possible to charge outside your home fairly quickly Tesla was able to ramp up production. Toyota was the king pin of hydrogen as the alternative but they made no real effort to build a hydrogen infrastructure . Of course that would be more challenging over electric as most of the infrastructure is already in place and only needed to tap into it . There has been a push back with the concept of hydrogen but it's the chicken and the egg . Do you build a infrastructure before you have a product ?

[@williambasinger5859]

What scares me about hydrogen powered units is the maintenance. Have you ever seen what rolls into ( or should I say pushed it automotive repair shops)? A good number should not be on the public roadways at all.

[@BramMertens]

Overall a great overview, I do feel that pointing to that one explosion at a hydrogen station was not necessary. It's very similar to the FUD when people talk about EV fires. Yes it's a danger and a very spectacular event but based on the data you presented not an everyday occurrence.

[@waynerussell6401]

The European Hydrogen Safety Panel had 706 incidents in their database as of May 2021. 35% were for explosions and 28% for fires. "Statistics, lessons learnt and recommendations from the analysis of HIAD 2.0 database" European Hydrogen Safety Panel (EHSP) 24 May 2022.

[@Neojhun]

Anything that can move long distance like across a city and especially anything road legal. It is not viable to fuel them with H2. The major problem is the H2 Fuel Distribution Network and equipment. There is just no viable method to distribute a tiny molecule at 0.0899 grams per litre at scale enough to power several thousand vehicles in a single city. The storage tanks and piping is just too leaky and unsafe at the massive scale. Thus why two people have already died at a filling station at Gangwon Technopark in Gangneung in South Korea. Funny how no one knows about this case from May 2019. That explosion was soo massive the Neighboring industrial building had it's windows destroyed.

[@HanYou2]

Storing electricity in hydrogen is just another kind of battery. If I have to choose, I will choose the one that works with a simple cable I can plug anywhere. Hydrogen is just another way energy can be centralized so we ordinary people don't have any control over it because it's so difficult to produce and manage on your own. A lithium battery I can buy a solar panel tomorrow and charge my car. In the past year I have spent 0 time charging. All my charging was done at home or at my destination and the offshore industry hates me for it

[@mmanjin]

A significant point that i didn't hear you mention, although you alluded to it, is how much it actually costs to filla hydrogen car. Its well over $100 dollars to fill up a Toyota Mirai. That's anywhere from 3 to 5 times more expensive than charging up an EV for the same mileage range. The KZbin channel Engineering Explained has an excellent discussion with plenty of scientific facts and demonstrates as to why hydrogen powered vehicles aren't feasible and never will be.

[@chrismaxny4066]

There is another reason Hydrogen is pushed, the auto parts industry. The H car keeps the same engine that's in a gasoline car. That means the parts are the same so no threat to the parts industry.

[@ambee514]

Picture this: Tiffany currently driving a 2009 Nissan Altima weaving through traffic with a busted taillight… now Tiffany is driving around a 10,000 PSI pressure vessel…

[@johnlodge8546]

Did you notice in "B ROLL" Ben used the price per kilogram at the Hydrogen station was $36 per Kg. For comparison sake. The energy content of 1 Kg of Hydrogen is IDENTICAL to one US gallonn of gasoline. Yes Fuel Cell vehicles are slightly more efficient than gasoline, but slightly better efficiency is NEVER going to make up for the cost differential of the fuels in each vehicle. After considering the FCEV efficiency difference over gasoline vehicle. It's still equivalent to more than 20 dollar a gallon for driving around in a vehicle.

[@williamgrunzweig571]

I can't begin to understand how anyone thinks that Hydrogen fuel cell cars will be a thing...ever.

[@fishyerik]

"Hydrogen is the fuel of the future, it has always been, and will always remain the fuel of the future", is a classic I heard/read some version of the first time, in the 80's. It might be interesting to know that the fuel cell was invented well before the first rechargeable battery ever was invented, so it's definitely not a newer technology that just has to catch up with batteries. The idea to use hydrogen as a general energy carrier, was proposed seriously 100 years ago, when most of the world didn't have an electrical grid, and people didn't care as much about safety, and no one cared about the climate, and natural gas was essentially a worthless byproduct, all things put together easily a hundred times more realistic to become a relevant option then than it is now.

[@LCCB]

Hydrogen embrittlement is a problem too. Most hydrogen vehicles have a hard life limit around 10 years, before their tanks/plumbing are too dangerous to operate.

[@DigiSpirit]

Wow. Great video. Thanks!

[@vincentrobinette1507]

20 years ago, Hydrogen would have made sense, because the EV's of the day got 80-110 miles of range on a charge, and cars did not fast charge. It took hours, rather than minutes, to amass enough energy for another 100 miles. Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) was a thing, because it promised twice that range, at a fairly low cost, compared to gasoline. Hydrogen is a direct competitor to CNG. The problem now is that EV's now offer the same, if not more range per charge, and technology has developed, allowing 200 miles of range in less than an hour. Add to that, the fact that you can plug an EV in at home and charge over night, and Hydrogen became obsolete before it ever came to fruition. The infrastructure for Hydrogen has to be built from the ground up, where the electrical infrastructure has been in existence for a century. (Just the stations need to be built, the electricity is already there) My next car WILL be an EV, because I can charge at home, at 1/4 the cost per mile of fueling an equivalent ICE vehicle. I rented an EV for a week, and it worked extremely well for me. It cost me 2.83 cents per mile, for the electricity to charge a 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EUV @ $0.114 per kWh for the week that I had it.

[@im4udevco]

I worked at United Technologies Fuel cells in 2002 at South Windsor, CT. I saw how hydrogen was processed using proton exchange membrane cells for mobile application and Nissan was their customer. For mobile application, this was a very cumbersome process and the overall efficiency was not worth the outcome. This has been true and though the system was miniaturized with minor improvements in efficiency, the principle is the same. Furthermore, converting to hydrogen plus the infrastructure is way too expensive. Well, with Shell pulled the plug off the refueling stations in CA, it's about time to come to reality. H2 is dead. EVs now and for those who are still stuck in the past with ICE vehicles, reality will hit them soon.

[@jamesivan2877]

Fact and not feelings. I think the world has forgotten about this idea.

[@gsap7017]

i love your video about ev, but im still not buy ev at this time because because i hear in korea a mercedes benz eqe on fire event not charge and park 3 day burn 140 car, can you explain why the mercedes explode even not charge ?

[@danam2584]

Great video Ben!

[@genieb]

I am convinced that electricity, direct to BEV will eventually take over all forms of transport, including long haul flight and shipping. The rate at which battery development is currently going and the amount of money and time that goes into this is mind boggling. Even if natural gas and hydrogen will be "transition fuels" that is all they will be! But then I work for a renewable energy developer (ex Oil&Gas), so I'm certainly biased.

[@redwingzfn]

Man you are so clear and concise with this fight. I really appreciate you taking this on so hard lately. It's so frustrating dealing with people that are basically following a quasi cult just mindlessly repeating what the oil corporations are feeding them whether it's directly or indirectly. It's so hard for me to understand the closed mindset of all the sheep out there. I really want to challenge them to ask themselves WHY am I so against EV's. Have you ever truly stopped and questioned WHY you believe the way you do in general? Such an odd but very human behavior we all should challenge be it this EV debate or anything else in life. I guess thats why cults exist because so many people are so easily manipulated and never critically think or challenge themselves to think different. Who is winning by you taking this stance that ICE cars are better and EV's are liberal garbage? Is oil paying you, are you benefiting from them? The politicians you listen to are PAID by oil. Look it up. Maybe we should think about how long they have controlled your life and kept you hostage making you pay them for a product that pollutes the air you breathe, is slowly and recklessly destroying the environment you and your family live in with total disregard for human life. Here's a bit of knowledge for the ICE lovers out there.... the oil companies don't give a rat's ass about you they just want to manipulate you to make YOU pay THEM. They want to keep you as a paying slave. That's the bottomline. Keep up the great work Ben!!!

[@jameshamilton2480]

Future of Construction equipment maybe...but only if you make the H2 at a solar power plant.

[@kecikmiao0711]

nuclear plant.. japan's been doing it n they are the world leading hydrogen production

[@johnsmedley8843]

Great post, very informative. I think easyjet in Europe will crack hydrogen or at least hybrid air flight.

[@johnnyforeigner11]

It takes 18 tankers of Hydrogen to transport the equivalent energy of one tanker of gasoline. Even better, it takes Zero tankers of electricity to fuel BEV's an unlimited number of miles.

[@sixpest]

No ones going out of their way to "fill up" the vehicle it does not run on air. And to refuel the other two options they don't take hours to do so.

[@CorwinPatrick]

There was a short period of time where we could have produced fuel at home for a CNG vehicle with a compressor and a natural gas line. T Boone Pickens (old school oil and gas guy) pushed for it in the early 2000s. The states all complained that they couldn't apply a road tax and that idea died. It became irrelevant when the Model S was introduced. Just like Hydrogen vehicles are irrelevant. Any vehicle with more moving/wearing/failing parts than an EV is going to lose to the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) of that EV. It's your choice... Dirty, smelly, hideously overpriced convenience stores or charge at home, overnight. And let's be clear, 90% of all trips in the US are less than 30 miles. 300 miles is largely irrelevant. If you are a 2 vehicle household and one of your cars is not an EV, you are just burning money.

[@Jcewazhere]

H2 would be okay for giant ships carrying millions of pounds of stuff across the oceans, but nuclear would be better. H2 could be good for long haul trucking. Less of a weight issue than batteries, and designated routes means you're not trying to get the H2 infrastructure spread everywhere. For passenger cars it's an absurdly bad idea.

[@ttank7241]

can you address the issues related to the high cost of repairing EVs as well as resale issues.

[@jugosever]

Hydrides can be used for low preassure hydrogen storage. That would make hydrogen fuel cell cars safer and more energy efficient.

[@kjshy]

I was thinking low pressured hydrogen fuel cell home generators for off grid with electric trucks exchanging the fuel cells routinely.

[@jftech11]

Speaking truth!

[@pacohoratio]

There is a huge appetite for Hydrogen as most countries can produce their own H2 from renewable sources, even domestically from solar. Fortunately, its not an efficiency competing.... When H2 is produced at scale, the efficiencies matter less. Japan are leading the way and like clockwork, everywhere will follow.

[@Fluxkompressor]

When Hydrogen cars could have made sense was between the 80s and 2000s where traction batteries to choose from were either lead acid, nickel metal hydride or even nickel cadmium and offered limited range Even back then you could easily commute with an electric car with 30-50 mile range This was also the time where hybrids made total sense. Batteries were expensive and kinda crap And today, if you have to haul a horse trailer a 1000 miles on a daily basis, grab a diesel. For pretty much everything else there is an EV that fits your needs

[@scwyldspirit]

Think about this. Hydrogen has to be frozen to be transported. Saw a leak from one on a semi years ago and it froze up the whole back of the trailer

[@kensmith5694]

Liquid not frozen. As hydrogen evaporates or even just loses pressure, it gets really cold.

[@jamesheartney9546]

@@kensmith5694 True. Thermal issues come into play for hydrogen vehicles, due to the high compression the fuel is stored in. Compressing hydrogen to 700 bar creates a lot of heat, which has to be bled off somehow, while decompressing hydrogen to prepare it for use in the fuel cell generates intense cold, which also needs to be handled. It's nothing like adding petrol, which is a liquid at room temperature, and which can be used directly at that same temperature.

[@CorwinPatrick]

@@kensmith5694 And since it's literally colder than everything else on the planet, everything else freezes.

[@kensmith5694]

@@CorwinPatrick Hydrogen freezes at 15KHelium freezes at 5K, (insert persons name) heart is colder than that.