The DEATH of Classic Anime

What happened to classic anime and why did they stop painting on cels?
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#classicanime #celanimation

[@Stevem]

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[@marocat4749]

I dont know if thats, em "qnime" but did you cover the wolfwalker studio thats still using drawing. And hopefully got enough cloud despire being robbed by the awards to keep going. And that in a healthy environment. I mean people wanting handdraws should support them ?! Not that digital tools are just that tools and artists no matter which tool deserve respect

[@Stevem]

Every one still hand draws in the anime industry wolfwalker is from an Irish studio ​@@marocat4749

[@blufudgecrispyrice8528]

Glad to see you got a square space sponsorship.

[@bakawaki]

It's so disappointing seeing the ridiculous hours and staggeringly low pay for such highly skilled jobs as animators and other artists in the industry.

[@Stevem]

realities of said industries in a lot of places

[@Lee-km7qq]

Pay could go up, but then there would be many people who get let go simply due to redundancy. Which would then lead to someone getting paid really well, but still working shitty hours. Also, you can learn animation in a year, it's not "highly skilled".

[@Stevem]

Go do it then right now, the industry is in a staff shortage crisis so I don't think what you say has any truth ​@@Lee-km7qq

[@relight6931]

That is absolutly one of the saddest things for me.. But then again, for a while I had access to Crunchyroll and I couldn't believe the amount of over production.. I, an anime lover couldn't even bother reading half the descriptions because I realized how much shit is made.. Yet that is no excuse to how little actual animators are payed.. Just imagine having a passion and tallent and then being paid pittance that makes you live with you parents and eat instant nuddles while working for established studio...

[@residentgrigo4701]

Don´t worry. AI will soon take care of all of that. Who needs quality if the workers can work for free!

[@vindik8or]

I think another problem with comparing historical styles is that people tend to forget the old junk in comparison. They will remember the best of what they used to like and compare it to the worst of what they now dislike.

[@S00NERD0G]

Yup - I was actually looking through a list of 90s debuts, and there are typically only 2 or 3 titles per year that anyone actually remembers (even less so for the 80's.)

[@augustussculpting9805]

But in my opinion the best of today is not even close to the best of the 90s and early 2000. People always brings this argument up and it just does not work. There is way more junk anime today compared to then and less high budget stuff.

[@flavorgod]

​@@augustussculpting9805 And you opinion is baseless.

[@Stevem]

You're wrong anime has never costed more​@@augustussculpting9805

[@Stevem]

The cream rises to the top is usually how I hear this idea phrased

[@PVTParts-eu3zl]

As an animator almost in my third year in the industry, I can confirm that the death of anime is truly contributed by the amount of shows and little pay. Only really good artists can survive the hurdle of producing enough cuts to feed themselves as less and less animators stay long enough to develop. That’s where the freelancers like me come in, however, only a few freelancers are getting paid really well without busting their ass (I’m not included). High profile productions usually scoop the good animators while smaller studios struggle to find any, and since freelancers are dominating the industry, training and passing of crucial knowledge is non existent (unless you work quite close with a studio’s staff). Worst part is that production committees don’t view these as problems due to anime being so popular, even with decreasing quality. Studios can’t just say no or ask for better conditions as they need money, because the committees will just find another studio to do it. And just like studios, animators need to eat, as little pay is better than no pay (otherwise they’ll just find someone even more unskilled to do it). In conclusion, I view my industry as one approaching it’s inevitable death. It’ll likely bounce back after many productions fail to meet their quotas and committees start to lose money from terrible conditions.

[@Stevem]

It's rough, but I appreciate your service

[@korakys]

The digital transition was rough, but the real "death of classic anime" was due to the change in the payment-for-anime paradigm. Physical media isn't coming back, we need a better system than the current one though.

[@Stevem]

Nope this problem was an issue back in the DVD boom also with production committees and the like physical sales are still a decent factor in anime within the media mix last I talked to someone on the American side they said they'd never sold more than right now and japans numbers have been decent, streaming of course has its issues in that it's an elaborate tax evasion scam that can't prove it makes money

[@MicahBuzanANIMATION]

Starting out with "Nope" is a rude way to begin a response. Even if what you're saying is true, that doesn't mean what the original commenter is saying doesn't also have truth to it. Especially on topics that are complicated and have many aspects to them, there's a lot of valid opinions that can be had without shutting down someone's perspective entirely with a Nope or a Well Actually.@@Stevem

[@Stevem]

If Someone is saying the real "X" of my thesis is something which does not have anything at to do with it, I'm gonna be blunt. That isn't an opinion as much as it is not a factor in the problems we've discussed in this video, because physical media is still selling well in the anime industry and even during the time of the DVD boom, exploitation and struggles were still rife.

[@funicon3689]

@@MicahBuzanANIMATIONstop tone policing

[@jaywhangmakes]

This reminds me of "Film vs Digital" debate in cinematography field. As Roger Deakins would puts it: it doesnt matter as long as it looks pretty.

[@Stevem]

basically yeah, shooting on film is pretty stressful too

[@Account.for.Comment]

Digital still hasn't caught up in terms of lighting quality but it is simply far more cheaper and convinient.

[@Stevem]

@@Account.for.Comment after effects lighting plugins are pretty good now (deep glow) , but also you can composite some older school methods back into the product which is what Shin Evangelion did for certain scenes

[@Account.for.Comment]

@@Stevem it can always be done, it just take extra effort to do so, and that might not be worth it to imitate the old looks. It is just a difference of hardwares, since they capture light different ways, they create different looks and their noises are different.

[@mii9010]

The biggest problem for me was the colours Whilst there's always the problem of trying to match the colours to the cels The shows during the early digipaint still felt close to the works of the 90s, and even sometimes nailed the colour matching. The ones that were choosing their own colours still had appealing, warm colour choices I'd say it wasn't until around the early 2010s when a lot of anime just felt really whitewashed and unappealing looking colours, almost glowing, lacked the warmth of those colours from the early digipaint era (Guess this is what happens since mixing painting is subtractive)

[@Stevem]

not exactly no one mixes paints on the cel part of the frame, theyre all stock poster paints, the change in colours is more a change in trends and compositing and what is in right now

[@igodreamer7096]

I hate how clean and lifeless some anime look because the digipaint. Where is the texture? Graining effect? The light blow?

[@Stevem]

@@igodreamer7096 this actually has to do with "Japanese" preference which leans very clean

[@crestofhonor2349]

Early digital coloring was rough as well as compositing. Most TV anime suffered hard while movies had a better transition. Much better today though thanks to better tools and people using larger number of colors available for a digital coloring workflow

[@harrylane4]

I don’t know if you are remembering early digipaint very well. Early digital anime were pretty visually horrendous. The 2000s were a really rough time for animation.

[@JoeLigmama]

Noise/Grain will ALWAYS look better than the lack there of. That's my issue with the new aesthetic.

[@Stevem]

This is a cultural divide as in Japan generally the preference is for clean images

[@Junosensei]

Mushoku Tensei added a grain filter and it looks absolutely splendid, though as an artist working digitally, grain reeeeaaaally bloats file size, so I imagine it's not as popular for production nightmares like that, too.

[@Stevem]

​@@Junosenseithe grain in the series is very subtle also but fits the vibe that studio in question is what you'd call built different also

[@justaguy2732]

I love 70s-90s anime but i’ve never been able to get with the digital stuff. I work as a games artist and meet a lot of other artists who feel the same. Sometimes its just evolution and you have to move with the times, but in this case, I feel something was lost forever.

[@Stevem]

You work digitally ?

[@justaguy2732]

@Stevem For sure! and happy to do so in the context on an interactive work, which needs to be rendered from all angles. If I were working in a medium that is much more fixed and final like animation, I would want to use the method that makes the most beautiful end result

[@Stevem]

Have you seen Puparia?

[@justaguy2732]

@@Stevem Yes, incredible!

[@Stevem]

​@@justaguy2732you know that was made in a computer via compositing right?

[@alexp6364]

I suppose we are to be grateful for the decades of amazing cell animated content we have, myself also growing up with 90's anime I find myself missing those aesthetic styles of the time but welcome the new all the same. Perhaps one day there will be a resurgence of style and method and we can all spend time with it again and not feel so old from all this change over the years. I think as long as we always have our amazing backlog I can comfortably wait and see.

[@Stevem]

there certainly has been a sort of resurgence in some stylistic things like i brought up in the end , pop team epic, one of chainsaw mans ED, gundam & even scott pilgrim have used techiques that emulate those kinda feels recently

[@Themanwithnoscreenname]

STEVEM tackles a topic that gets people.... animated, I see. Well done as always.

[@Stevem]

i see what you did there

[@igodreamer7096]

"I came from the future to say that in the year 21XX, everyone makes them own anime. And people still complain about it. Some things never change, huh" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@cmbaz1140]

honestly this is what i am wating for...when ai finally reaches that point we will have an anime renaissance ...

[@SeaSerpentLevi]

I believe what we will get out of AI alone is always going to be a weird derivative version of anime, just like rigged 2d animation doesnt look as amazing and impactiful as hand drawn 2d animation with good key frames and in betweens.

[@SeaSerpentLevi]

Now, what people that draw and animate well are going to do with AI and Blender... is crazy to even imagine

[@xvct2661]

Younger viewer here and i would like to say that the main thing for me is that growing up in the 2000s watching 90s 80s and even the 70s stuff and also of course the stuff from the time and the main difference between then and the 2010s to today era is the fact people became less brave less experimental gradually until the safe tropy stuff we get today i just wish the people making this stuff would try to express them self and not worry about apeal

[@Stevem]

easier said than done when most studios are heavily in debt nowadays

[@xvct2661]

@@Stevemtrue the boming 80s are a distant memory by now

[@dannywhite9975]

@@xvct2661 good point production shouldn't keep under pressure d anime artists anymore with budget/ schedule issues n leav 'em doing their job alone.

[@Goosewitdajuice317]

@@Stevem yeah that's unfortunate. I have a feeling eventually they'll have to be original to maintain any relevance

[@Stevem]

It's not to say there aren't studios that have done so especially, but any original IP is a massive risk for a studio. For the longest time the producers approach has been called the shotgun method they simply shoot out as much as they can and see what sticks.

[@koldi9746]

Really nice to see Stevem reference Sakuga Blog. It's an amazing source on ins and outs of the industry, with absolutely staggering quality of writing.

[@Stevem]

It's a solid article

[@noughiphiet]

In the early 90s, My high school art Teacher had a catalog that offered animation supplies. I spent 100 dollars on some acetate and some cel paints. I had a couple of anime cels from a flea market a couple years earlier that I studied. I gave it a go trying to paint something and it was turning out nice at first. I ran into a problem that I could not fix. I did not have the pen they used for doing the outline; a thin sharpie wasn't the answer. They also have every cel color already mixed. I was mixing my own colors so if I ran out of a certain color tone I couldn't get it to match, so it ended up looking like rubbish and I never finished painting the rest of it. When I went to college for animation it was still in the time of doing video pencil tests. I think back on all the old processes to even get one second of animation done compared to how Toonboom Harmony and Adobe Animate have changed the whole thing in such a better way. So I don't fault the studios for abandoning cel animation. I am also not as critical about the use of 3D models anymore. The best example of great 3D/2D animation done right was Batman Ninja.

[@Stevem]

so they do the linework via putting the acetate in a xeros machine and copying the pencil onto it directly

[@Stevem]

I've painted on cels prior and it's a pain in the ass for sure there's a really specific way it needs to be done too because you have to be aware that by painting a lot of times you are blocking the shapes you are following on the other side or wherever i could never do it again

[@CornishCreamtea07]

I've going through all the Disney Films recently in order, and I strongly believe that cels had reached their artistic height with "Sleeping Beauty". Even in the 80s and 90s when Xeroxing had improved, they still never recaptured the harmony between line art and paint, that the hand inked cels had. So I'm not really bothered that a technique that had gone as far as it could artistically was replaced.

[@pablocasas5906]

I actually kind of prefer the sketchy look from the early Disney animated movies which were made with the Xerox process, like 101 Dalmatians, Sword in the Stone, Jungle Book and Robin Hood. It seems like from the Black Cauldron to The Little Mermaid they switched to a new kind of cel process that actually looked pretty good and they did a good job at mixing traditional 2D animation with CGI props, especially in Oliver & Company with all the cars and other machinery I think the switch to using the CAPS system was pretty good, movies like Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and The Lion King look great even to this day, though there were some lighting effects that couldn't be replicated with digital ink & paint

[@eruno_]

I think I only stopped hating anime CGI after seeing Land of the Lustrous, it proved that CGI anime can be done right. I guess it's always not the question of the tool, but by the skill of an artist which uses it.

[@Stevem]

there are some complicated sides to this also in terms of cost, because japan has cutting edge tech and artists in that field but none of them work in anime tv because it's not worth it and the pay is a joke in comparison, orange had people who were vets in anime who did cgi work set up a studio and take what they knew into the field and the tech they have or techniques to cut costs and corners in a mostly effective way which has worked well for them.

[@eruno_]

@@Stevem Yes, Orange are definitely exceptionally talented studio. But as you said they are more of an exception than the rule because of your pointed out reasons. Also wanted to thank you for remarkably interesting anime doc content on KZbin. Cheers!

[@Yixdy]

Dorohedoro's anime was friggin perfect

[@crestofhonor2349]

CG's main issue tends to be time, something many TV shows just have less of when compared to a movie. Look at some of Disney's use of CG in their 90s movies and compare it to many american and japanese animated series. CG is one tool that needs much more time. Much of the CG looks nice due to the fact that it's painted like a background so lighting and texture work all looks natural. That's expensive because often backgrounds are the most expensive part of a show, especially with how many are needed per episode or movie

[@Ieatbabywhales]

​@@Yixdy which is why hoping that Orange studio is the one in charge of s2

[@RenStrive]

What i hate from digital era paint is the oversaturated color and thin-lines in anime

[@Stevem]

The thing is now a days that depends on the shows the post processing on linework has gotten very good if that be with frieren, toeis output or in dugeon meshi to name a feew you can get all sorts of linestyle same with colour there's a good variety of looks about right now.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Wow. Those Gundam shots were done digitally? They seriously emulated the look of 80's cels and low resolution monitors *perfecty* then. I'm quite impressed they went for that aesthetically and pulled it off.

[@Stevem]

like i said they've came a really long way since the mid 00s, that dude is also the director of photography on Hathaway he knows what he's doing

[@Stevem]

What do you think dear viewers? Do you like Digital shows or traditional shows or are you gonna leave your own comment about without watching the video either way

[@itssunday1990]

Is this a re-upload? I thought I saw this on my recommended earlier. And yeah, making things cheaper is something companies always want to go for while drastically effecting the anime art form and going with a new standard.

[@Jekyl99999]

I like both, tbh. It depends on how immersible and engaging they are, like I like The Fire Hunter (Hikari no ou), 1st and 2nd season, despite limitations of it's animation, which is mostly digital probably. I grew up with cel animated./mixed(cel and digital animated like The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest or so called Disney's renaissance Films) and digital animated shows, so there's no problem for me, as long as story is compelling.

[@Stevem]

it is not a reupload @@itssunday1990

[@ourfamilyaccount]

I prefer traditional, I grew up with it. The hand painted backgrounds and the flat colors of cel painted characters drew me in. Of course there has been digital anime I adore too like 'Arcane' from Netflix I think was one of the best digital animations I've seen in quite some time. But I'll always appreciate cel art too; Recently I've been watching 'Escaflowne' with my spouse (never saw it before) and I'm tickled by the moody lighting for certain scenes... I just like it. I adore the two Kenshin OVA films too.

[@crestofhonor2349]

I don't prefer either. It depends on the work and who's involved in the coloring process. Digital just has an additional step with compositing. There are some digital shows with some absolutely beautiful digital compositing

[@Slavolko]

Fantastic video. I didn't witness the transition myself, but I've seen the animations that came out before, during, and after the transition. Your video provides the context for me to appreciate that more.

[@grapes9h5]

Very helpful video and succinct. I knew bits and pieces of this and intuited the rest but now it all makes sense in a timeline. Those slower transition years in the early 00’s are very interesting to look back on.

[@Stevem]

glad you enjoyed

[@jondensk]

well researched video! Fun fact, pixar created the digital color system in america (CAPS) that was first used for one shot on the little mermaid, than was fully used on rescuers down under. I dont watch anime outside of ghibli, but i will say, i do prefer the modern compositing they have had since spirited away. I think they can capture the magic still because they actually dont ink the drawings digitally, they scan in high rez tie down drawings directly from paper than color digitally. i think that system still gives the look a nice meet between old and new. unlike alot of shows, where everything is digital, clean to the max. and if you think the rise in productions from this is bad, being an animator in the streaming age isnt any better lol (trust me, its hard)

[@Stevem]

Most studios don't ink the lines digitally neither, some may vectorise them but by the process they all have to process those line because they tend to scan without antialiasing

[@GTXDash]

6:53 Man. I grew up on this exact making of documentary of GitS back in 1998 that I taped on the SciFi channel. I watched it over and over again because back in the 90s, this was revolutionary. In some ways, I found it more interesting than the film itself. Just a few years later when in college, I took Multimedia and Design classes because I wanted to get into the tech side of animation. Ironically, I'm now an indie game developer instead of working at an animation studio, even though I did a few years ago but ended up leaving because of how stale and lacking in imagination that many studios suffered from in the last 10 years or so. Even though resently I've worked on an official Doom 1 and 2 add-on campaign called Doom Zero, that anyone can download for free from Bethesda, I'm actually happier now while working on an original game and our real first commercial product that I'm hoping will get a release early this year. Game development is hard, but at least I'm doing the thing that that documentary from years ago inspired me to do in the first place. Things seemed more exciting back then. Not to say nothing good comes out today. But it feels rarer.

[@Stevem]

kinda sounds like youre getting on that last remark ahah, but i hope indie development treats you well or at the very least is more gratifying

[@Game_Hero]

What happened to all the people who's skillset was about painting, drawing and colouring things physically? As someone that witnessed the change in my domain from paper to computer work, I feel like begging to stop being in front of a screen all the time and work with paper and ink again on a sheet of paper. I wonder if they feel the same about their painting art form if they weren't just kicked out of the industry with nowhere to go altogether.

[@Stevem]

Not really everything is still hand drawn most on paper, younger people usually on tablet. Those who did backgrounds and such could still do them traditionally if they chose, especially the old heads. Some still use traditional painting throughout the entire production, Ghibli of course do but in movies like children of the sea, Okko's Inn or hosodas film even etc etc. The TV anime sonny boy also traditionally painted the backgrounds then digitally processed them , it's very easy to just scan them in. I'm not sure you'll see many people yearning to paint on cels again by hand.

[@urbanyouths]

@@Stevem I noticed in behind the scenes animation vids of digital animation from the 1990's to 2010's, paper drawing was the main way of animating, but then I saw more recent studio tours videos in Japan and everyone was on tablets drawing straight into the computer. I think a lot of studios have moved away from paper altogether.

[@Stevem]

not really, younger staff are happy to use tablets but many older staff do not have the time to retrain, Genga is still often posted. And correction sometimes end up printed out the digital layouts, to correct with pencils. Also it depends who is using those tablets in the office is it the animators or is it the art department/cleanup etc. A lot of animators are freelance or not at the studio etc depending where we are talking about.

[@Swiss_Bohemian]

07:30 Tonari no Yamada-kun was the first digitally painted anime by studio Ghibli, but the actual animation was still done traditionally by hand and then scanned for digital paint and effects. I was lucky enough to have a glimpse into its production back in 1999 when I visited the studio. When it comes to the switch of cel animation to digital paint and later digital animation, Studio 4C was another quite important studio. Noiseman Soundinsect and Kouji Morimotos Short Clip for Glay's music video Survival are prime examples.

[@Stevem]

All anime still draws things by hand if the younger people use tablets or not this isn't uncommon

[@Swiss_Bohemian]

@@Stevem This was just to clarify because to me, it almost sounded as if you suggested the movie’s whole animation process was already done digitally

[@Stevem]

@@Swiss_Bohemian i said digitally painted, but yeah ghibli still draws everything on paper and paints the background with paints to this day so no i did not mean it that way

[@randomizer2240]

The biggest problem today for me is the lack of original anime. It felt like the largest majority of stuff & the cream of the crop back then were original works. Today the majority of the big budget anime are manga or light novel adaptation. Because most studios don't employee full teams or the same consistent staff on a per show/season basis. It feels like the world building & story of modern original stuff doesn't get enough time to develop. Things are rushed out in a quickly on to the next one" sort of way. This is no fault of the actual animators & other creatives in the industry. Rather it lies fully at the feet of the studios & their choice to employ a neoliberal gig style economy as the basis of the industry. In a sense the studios can't be blamed too as they are there to maximise profits over all else. So it is the wider economic policy changes that have engulfed the world that is really to blame. It encourages these studios to seek greater returns for shareholders. And executives' jobs also being more secure prioritising profit over sustainability likely plays a role too. I'll never get my head around the short sightedness, it is completely illogical & contradictory to me. It akin to a type of chaos compared to the stability provided by having full-time positions, greater pay, a better work/life balance for your staff etc. Also self-actualisation of a person can only truly begin when all a persons essential needs are met. After this they can truly began to become happier & more productive. A stressed, anxiety ridden & over worked person likely doesn't have the time or patience to be delivering their best work. Worrying about covering rent & just being able to put food on your table can be extremely stifling.

[@Stevem]

I crunched the numbers for the entire 90s anime in comparison to 2010s anime. There was a huge amount more "original" anime that came out in the 2010s because there was a huge amount more anime per year out during that period. The way I did this is via anilists search functions and there's problems with that in terms of what we count as original say for example sequels to franchises that start off as anime. Or Digimon being on the 90s list which might be dubious because Digimon was a media mix which started from virtual pet toys opposed to anime. But there was so much more scrolling needed for the 2010s they aren't even on the same level. I do not know if there was ever a period in which the largest titles were anime original, because the franchising model has been such a massive factor in the industry since it "began" during the 60s. When I did a search for the most "popular" 90s anime on the site and i looked through the top 30 of them only 8 of them were original and three of those were Evangelion related, two were Miyazaki movies and another was Digimon if we're counting that or not. If we're going off original TV shows then it's 4 (plus Digimon if you want to count that)

[@jarik7658]

There are eight original anime airing this season. That's not too bad.

[@Stevem]

that's actually really impressive (and there's 4 or 5 anime original sequels out also on top)

[@UnknownFlyingPancake]

When I got into anime, I was exposed to both digital and traditional alongside eachother as it was the early 2000's. Despite that, I still vastly prefer the look of traditional animation. I like it even more now than when I was young, the higher quality modern screens makes it easier to see things like the individual strokes of the artist, all these tiny little flaws that show that this was created by human beings, that a person painted that. It's so much easier to really appreciate and take in and imagine the individual people painting them and putting it together to create a painting that moves. The colors too, so soft and soothing. Even though when you showed Spiral, I felt nostalgic, because I grew up with that show, looking at it doesn't bring me the same warmth as looking at Yu Yu Hakusho. Anime from the 2000's look rough. It clearly wasn't an easy transition for the artists. The colors are way too bold. But I remember in the 2010's seeing Attack on Titan and thinking that anime was starting to look really good again, I was impressed with what I saw there, they used the capabilities of digital to their advantage. Modern anime now looks so very polished. But I think for all it gained, it also lost the "heart" or "spirit" that lies within the art done on cels. I understand why they moved away from it, but it is still a bit saddening.

[@Stevem]

i do think there's a lot of great looking shows in the 00s if that be Mononoke, Count of Monte Cristo, Kaiba, Casshern Sins or Gurren Lagann etc. Also Digital work does not mean all digital every show is still hand drawn and a large portion of those 00s show still have hand painted BGs

[@MarthaPennington88]

I don’t mind digital or classical. I love both for different reasons. The only type of animation I hate is 3D animation. It will never feel or look right no matter how good the tech gets. There have a been a few anime that have used both 2D and 3D together that effectively creates the illusion of it being only 2D as long as the 3D is the lesser percentage. I can admit that but otherwise it’s a whole fail, but that’s not what we’re talking about lol.

[@Stevem]

Cgi is its own subject though it does relate here, I think they can work pretty well together such as in metropolis or GITS innocence etc, but that's really about compositing over anything else

[@MarthaPennington88]

@@Stevem yeah I’m starting to see shows and movies popping up that challenge my dislike of the medium but I still hold it lol. I’m a stubborn one. Usually the ones that work well are the ones that use 2D principles and also the story telling. That can make up for the art form’s flaws in many ways.

[@Miraihi]

Show that has sold 3D anime look to me was Beastars. Land of the Lustrous is another highlight.

[@strawpiglet]

I'm the same. I don't want to see any 3d in animation or even live action. If I can see that it is 3d, it has pulled me out of the moment. I will say there have been exceptions, like The Iron Giant, but that was great for the story, it's not something I actually want to look at.

[@crestofhonor2349]

CG isn't something you should hate though. It's a tool and it can and does save a lot of time in production on more complex objects to draw. When used effectively it works extremely well. Both Ghibli and Disney have used CGi in their hand drawn films extremely well. TV anime suffer more from bad CG just due to tight time constraints on production.

[@ourfamilyaccount]

Wonderful topic to cover. It was a strange time seeing how cel animation faded off, I hated it in the beginning but I've grown to realize if the team making the content are skilled in the CGI programs, it can be a marvel to see such as some cel painted shows were. I probably was stubborn over the change. Thanks, I shared this video and I hope you'll get more traction. Blessings on you, I thought this video would've been locked off.

[@Stevem]

Thank you for the watch !

[@rasdiggle]

The creativity from the 80's - 2ks was mind blowing and they had less restrictions, artists were also far more dedicated than most of the newer ones.

[@Stevem]

Theyre all dedicated, the amount of hours they put in should be enough to show that.

[@behindtheanimatorsdesk]

I absolutely love ‘old anime’ and how it looks visually. With his hand drawn animation and hand painted cells and backgrounds. It truly felt magical, but I would understand why a lot of companies have moved on to digital. Mostly because it truly is hard work, to go back to an old technique that just takes more time, effort and a lot of more money definitely. It just wouldn’t make sense if we now have all the technological advances. It is sad to see old anime die down, but maybe we shouldn’t stay in the past of the medium. And strive forward on the new way of creating these pieces. And soon enough we will look on the work now that has been created, and possibly admire it for its difference. It’s because things are always changing, and things will forever change constantly in the medium and the way anime is created in the future.

[@Stevem]

For the record most stuff is still hand drawn and even the backgrounds on projects can be hand painted depending on the age of the staff

[@behindtheanimatorsdesk]

@@Stevem Yes it is true that there are still companies that do use hand drawn animation and background painting. But I would say that there are a few companies that are using a lot of digital animation now of course. And most definitely animation wouldn’t be coloured by hand on cells like back then

[@Stevem]

All the animation is hand drawn though younger artist may be drawing on tablets which is fine​@@behindtheanimatorsdesk

[@behindtheanimatorsdesk]

@@Stevem what really? I wasn’t aware of this. Damn Japanese people put there all into everything. I thought it was only Ghibli really that still did hand drawn

[@Stevem]

​@@behindtheanimatorsdeskno they all are Ghibli just forces them all to do it on paper with pencil

[@bobokitty123]

I think youtube ate my comment about personal experience in the industry, but here's one for the algorithm. ; w ; Procrastinating near the end of the day instead of fixing some animation errors for work. I can't imaging doing this kind of stuff on painted cels...

[@Stevem]

i'll have a look in spam i dont recall seeing another comment, but maybe that could happen if you are allowed to stop working that is, a lot of painting would be outsourced in an almost factory like condition

[@bobokitty123]

​@@Stevemso I work on an American production and some of my coworkers remember the days of paper and cels! I've always been fascinated by the technology, but have never seen it in person. Working with digital, when we get animation back, we get it as a collection of digital cels. Part of what I do is take all of these and set them up into files for artists to then go in and make model corrections. I also help out, though it's mainly fixing color errors, inconsistencies, etc. Trying to picture hunting down physical versions of these cels, grabbing all the paint for the artists, making sure cels aren't lost of misplaced, etc....just, wow. That's a lot of extra work and time! (Also problems being faced in Japan in the industry are also being felt here and in other countries; it's a huge depressing mess at the moment)

[@Stevem]

I imagine that's real strain all over, on the topic of cel checking you may have to add them being sent internationally in the post to and from places to check them or photo them into the mix

[@bobokitty123]

@@Stevem as a PA, that would probably be part of my job ahaha; I've heard stories from coworkers about an older show where the outsourcer hadn't made the full shift to digital. When they asked for some animation back to check, days later a bunch of boxes showed up in the mail full of loose paper! I think the painting part was at least digital, though I'm not sure. A lot had to be reworked inhouse regardless.

[@Stevem]

​@@bobokitty123in the series animation runner kuromi you do see the mad rush to send all the papers abroad for colouring or whatever which meant it needed to be done three days before airing

[@dannywhite9975]

A new video of this world class Anime Art expert, is a treat I can't miss any longer 🎓

[@residentgrigo4701]

The digital revolution needed to happen. The late 90s to mid-00s had their colors & contrast all over the place and bad digital integration on top (early Gonzo shows are an eyesore now) but that long-ended. Yet we somehow lost proper black levels along the way. Berserk 97, HxH 99 and so on are perfect fodder for TikTok and X clips or photo collages as such stark dark colors don´t really exist anymore for some reason. There are millions of colors for artists to choose from now but the end results are always brighter than what we got in the 80s and 90s. Works great for some genres but less so for others. Those goddamn Berserk films looked as if someone put the Bloom Filter from Oblivion on the lense.

[@Stevem]

LCD tvs don't do well with blacks in comparison to CRT now with oled there's better opportunities although not sure how Japan has taken to them and those tvs are really bright so I feel that's the vibe they want to take advantage of

[@residentgrigo4701]

@@StevemThe made for YT BLADE RUNNER 2049 - "Black Out 2022" short has proper contrasts so it can be done. Arcane is also "lit" like Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust. Stuff like let´s say Psycho-Pass looks really weird in comparison despite the high production values. Even their films. The night scenes have believable colors but put a clear source of light in an otherwise dark space and it somehow looks as if someone shone a flashlight into the middle of my screen and washed out the colors.

[@Stevem]

​@@residentgrigo4701black out was for Warner and a western property that's the vibe they went for, arcane is French while it can be done it's more about industry preferences

[@JK-vj4rw]

Hah, as soon as you started talking about early digi anime bring stuck in 480p I thought of Kino's journey; and it came up exactly in that second. Pains me to know that some anime will always be standard definition, but honestly for me 480p is usually preferable to the forced up-scaled versions. I bet up-scaling will get better with time and AI but for now I will keep the dvd versions. Love ya Stevem keep up the good work!

[@JK-vj4rw]

shouldnt have paused, stop reading my mind!

[@Stevem]

​@@JK-vj4rwI have the DVD of kino to be fair

[@altered_realities]

Studio Ghibli films use about 3000-4000 liters of paint for backgrounds and characters.

[@proximacentaur1654]

Great video mate. I learnt a lot. Thanks.

[@Stevem]

Glad to hear it!

[@LogosSteve]

Always good to see a fellow Steve killing it

[@Stevem]

Lol thanks

[@chunksss]

A wonderful video as always Stevem - thanks!

[@Stevem]

My pleasure!

[@Slater2113]

I'm about 30 and I feel as though I was born young enough to enjoy cell but came of age in the digital painting era and I honestly like both aesthetics pretty equally. I think they both have strengths and can look pretty amazing in different contexts. I'll concede that there's probably more garbage just due to the automation of certain digital processes and the sheer glut of content compared to once was. However, I genuinely wonder if you stacked the number of shows that will actually be remembered year by year whether the number of good shows is all that different. Of the dozen or so shows I watch in a year, I typically walk away with 3 or 4 things that I really like and that's all I need.

[@Stevem]

For the record per minute 2006 is still higher than anything now in terms of content though there was less individual shows,bits hard to say which has more "bad" because it depends on your preferences if in the 00s the shows you didn't care for are 50eps or more then there's gonna be less you're interested in overall

[@HalloBruce]

​@@Stevem is there similar data for the drawing count per episode each year? I've heard that the average has increased in recent years, which seems plausible... but idk for sure. In any case, it's another factor to consider when comparing the output of the 2020s to that in 2006 or earlier

[@Stevem]

The drawing cap was placed in the early 80s at about 3000 frames per episode, some studios still hold onto it. In the digital era it's less of an issue and I'm sure some shows have went over it when it was necessary, this was a cap on Tv opposed to film or OVA. So youll likely see higher counts in ONAs and the sort. I also know Mappa doesnt really abide by it which puts more strain on it's talent. Important to note more drawings=/= better animation.

[@drendelous]

i'm fed up with squarespace ads

[@crestofhonor2349]

Art styles for anime have been changing a ton and I don't mind at all. I've watch tons of shows from the 70s up till today. Some shows have kept their classic style like Lupin the Third and some have smaller updates like Gundam in some iterations. I quite like the art style of many newer series and older series. The transition from cel to digital was rough, especially for most anime. The west made a much better transition but a lot of shows still suffered hard from the turn. Most anime shifted from cel to digital around the turn of the millennium so many late 90s shows and early 2000s were entirely done digital with a few making the shift mid season. One of the last major cel animated movies franchises to hold onto cel was Pokemon. Pokemon didn't make the shift to digital animation for it's movies until 2004 with the premiere of Pokemon: Destiny Deoxys, making it the last major hand drawn production to use traditional hand painted cels. Of course in the realm of TV it was a different story as the last cel animated episode for Pokemon was in 2002 before they made the shift to a fully digital workflow for coloring. Another issue that many early 2000s shows was that linework was boring thanks to many 2000s shows going with the same thin black outlines. Of course not all suffered from this but plenty did. Movies however suffered much less and I assume that was more due to them having much higher budgets and far more time to animate them. I don't recall too many movies having the same issues as most TV anime did. Ghibli movies still looked incredible even with their first all digital film, "My Neighbors the Yamadas" being released 1999. Every film since has been digitally colored. Thankfully today many shows do not have the same issue with many shows experimenting with different linework and wider color palettes. The issue with cel is that it's way too expensive to do nowadays as well as being too time consuming. The digital switch saved a ton of time in the production of shows as generally hand painting cels takes a ton of time. Another benefit is that the number of coloring errors decreased in the switch. I absolutely love the look of many cel based anime but digital is better in every way when done right. The thing is you need a good director in charge of the digital compositing. Some shows I think have had some great changes in that respect include One Piece(Wano Arc and beyond) and Pokemon. Of course One Piece has always been digital for the TV series ever since it's first episode in 1999. CG is a different story. The issue with CG is that it requires a lot of work to get it done right. Movies thankfully have the time to author CG properly and get it to blend in with the hand drawn characters and backgrounds. TV series on the other hand have far less time on a per episode production means less time to properly blend it into the background. It's hard to do and most movies tend to paint CG items like backgrounds allowing to to look natural. CG was always going to be in the production because some items are just more difficult for animators to draw. In particular, the most common CG objects tend to be vehicles due to their complexity and the fact that vehicles are more rigid than living things. Vehicles were some of the first things to be transfered to CG in many shows even though not all shows use CG vehicles.

[@Stevem]

Pokemon made the transition in 2002 on tv, I talk about it and source the interview in the video but yeah the movie side was a little later for some, even shows like one piece which were digital from the beginning had their first two movies on cels

[@progamerhennessey9483]

Great knowledge and research put into this video

[@Stevem]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Quast]

My bigger issue was the drawing style for the first half of the 2000s not as much the colors. There were so many shows with characters that had these extremely eliptical iris in the eyes and then very pointy bangs for the hair xD

[@Stevem]

Styles are always moving though I can see how for some the harsh coloring might have made that worst for them on top

[@elihalz]

Love it. Keep creating amazing content please ❤

[@Stevem]

thank you!

[@Stevem]

thank you!

[@zazenbo]

29 year old here. A friend and I were watching Dominion Tank Police last night and we were talking about how “alive” it felt compared to digital anime. Neither of us were even that invested in the show, but it was difficult not to notice that it just had a little hop in its step. My favorite anime ever is Ping Pong the Animation, which is heavily inspired by Franco-Belgian comics. I felt there was a lot of thought put into the composition of each shot in the show. It’s difficult not to notice how sterile most weekly anime feel, and one of the reasons I feel this way may have to do with the overuse of eye-level camera and “two-shots”. There seems to be a lack of satisfying composition to aid the clean visuals in many shows, especially those put out by Mappa and Toei.

[@zazenbo]

I do want to say though, I’ve seen amazing digital work by Sunrise- in particular: Planetes and the Gundam franchise. There are directors you can count on no matter what: Shinichiro Watanabe and Mamoru Hosoda- both guide their teams to great very aesthetically pleasing films and series.

[@Stevem]

Hard disagree on toei they're pretty solid, Japans preference is clean images that's really common and Compositing issues are a plenty for other reasons.

[@Luipaard005]

It is interesting how technology drives trends and then our interests are shaped by this environment. New tech and digital paint: excitement, new toys, gee whiz wow, AND it costs less overall due to not having to invest in physical media? Wowowowow! I'm old enough to remember this change hitting the mainstream as a layperson and it was cool to see anime changing and hitting different vibes. It was cool and exciting. Now I think what's happened is that we've gotten used to this "wow" factor and to the clean lines and everything. Our exposure to digital art has been part of the recent trend of wanting to "go back" to more organic feeling media, bespoke stuff. This is a normal reaction and has happened before and it will drive other technology changes and aesthetic decisions. This in turn will eventually turn a new different trend It's fascinating how these shifts in technology are driven by human nature and then human nature reacts to the shifts... thus begetting more shifts. But what seems to last forever is the exploitation of workers.

[@monsterartist231]

woaw,, finaly new video from stevem,,, im alive again,,, thank you

[@Stevem]

i released one last month also!

[@monsterartist231]

yeah and i'm having a blast! thank you for your hard work, just love hearing your voice talking about old anime production in general, always looking forward to your uplods!@@Stevem

[@Riiludragon]

Cel animation and limited technology imposed limitations that gave cleaner styles, now it's so extremely gratuitous with special effects it just becomes visual diarrhea, especially in action scenes, you cna barely keep track of whats happening.

[@mrbean5840]

If people ignore all the bad anime nowadays there'd still be more good anime than they were in the old days, just don't watch the bad ones.

[@cisuminocisumino3250]

True, but the best animes of the early 90's and 2000's are better than the best animes today.

[@TheAyman1825]

While acknowledging the commendable effort put forth, I find that the aforementioned video falls short in presenting a comprehensive overview of the transformative shifts associated with the transition to digital mediums. Notably, directors such as Kazuhiro Furuhashi have experienced a complete overhaul of their cinematographic styles in the digital realm. Additionally, concerns arise regarding the impact on artist linework, particularly in comparison to traditional cell animation. Although the emergence of webgen artists has introduced innovative styles to the industry, it is essential to address the challenges these artists face due to a lack of traditional art training. Deficiencies in areas such as line quality, construction, and composition persist, hindering the artistic output. Furthermore, despite the expedited production facilitated by digital painting techniques, it is imperative to recognize the inherent drawbacks, including the dearth of draftsmanship, atmospheric nuances, and the potential compromise of authenticity in the work of emerging artists. A critical concern pertains to the constrained color range in digital art compared to its cell animation counterpart. In conclusion, while digital advancements undeniably enhance production efficiency, it is crucial to navigate and mitigate the associated shortcomings, ensuring a balanced consideration of both the advantages and challenges posed by the digital transformation in the realm of artistic expression.

[@Stevem]

What exactly did you want to say about Kazuhiro Furuhashi's work? Has this director talked at length about these changes exactly he's one artist of many? When it comes to linework, this video is more so focused on the earlier days of this transition where linework concerns at a more early 2010s issue deriving from vectorisiation of linework to be able to upscale and unifying the line cleanup etc instead of having to use filters to make the lines unalliased again. This is also not an issue anymore the tech around this has came miles and now pretty much all shows can add a processing to change the linework to their preference which was also seeen featured in the Gundam mobile game post processing. The death of draftsmanship was an unfortunate side effect of the changes in the market coming either way, these processes had already been outsourced overseas for decades after all. I also have no idea why you think the digital colour is constrained in comparison to traditional it's the complete opposite issue, they have access to every colour imaginable there's no limit.

[@TheAyman1825]

@@Stevem When comparing Furuhashi's pre-digital and post-digital works, it's evident that there's a noticeable regression. Examining his 1990s works like 'Ronnie Kenshin' and 'Hunter x Hunter' alongside his modern pieces, such as 'Dororo,' reveals a decline in cinematography and overall direction. Techniques in lighting and color design seem absent in his contemporary works. While some directors like Makoto Shinkai embraced digital post-production to create their own styles, the result often feels oversaturated and artificial compared to their older counterparts. The evolution in technology has improved line work, but stiffness remains, and the transition isn't always seamless, especially considering the variety of line styles. The argument for AI upscaling is contested, with many artists expressing concerns about its impact on older shows. In terms of draftsmanship, the issue extends beyond outsourcing. Webgen artists like Shingo Yamashita sometimes use the term 'style' to mask errors evident in shots from shows like 'Naruto Shippuden 167' or 'Birdy the Mighty.' These problems stem from a lack of formal art education, becoming a norm in the anime industry. Notably, artists mentored under Yoh Yoshinari, like Shuhei Handa and Kai Igarashi, showcase a distinct difference in animation quality compared to their peers. While digital coloring has improved, it doesn't offer the same range as traditional methods. Even renowned digital artists like Craig Mullins acknowledge this limitation. The shift to digital was primarily driven by speed, as seen in Studio Ghibli's digital-era films, where characters pop more but may not blend as seamlessly with backgrounds as in the cell era. Addressing these concerns requires a deeper exploration than what many anime journalists provide. For a more thorough understanding, consulting textbooks on animation, construction, and color theory is recommended. Suggestions include 'Drawing Essentials' by Glenn Vilppu, 'How to Draw' by Scott Robertson for construction, 'The Animator's Survival Kit' by Richard Williams for animation, and 'Color and Light' by James Gurney for color design. Additionally, reading Tamerlane's articles on the American animation system (twolongfourtwitlonger.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/brief-overview-of-the-american-animation-system-for-anime-fans/) and his insights on 'Hunter x Hunter' (twolongfourtwitlonger.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/hxh-99-hxh-2011-btw/) provides valuable perspectives. Apologies if my tone seemed condescending

[@Stevem]

What you are describing with Furuhashi is not solely on his back but the art direction, animation direction and colour team etc. I'm not an auteur guy on this point. Also you have to consider that most of the works you have just described our adaptations and have certain things in terms of those designs directions are not always in the directors control. It would be a bit much to put that all on the tech instead of any number of other factors, even so Spy X family is a fine looking show. I can't say i've noticed a stiffness, in any particular show that's used the tech recently. Animation linework has always gone through an abstraction process if it was xeros machines in that past or the scan and vectorize now Ai upscaling can be contentious, but when it comes to shows without an original film master it's the best option people have (especially for digipaint) along with curation from the right team and I think discotek did a very solid job with digimon it's hands down the best version on physical media to date. "renowned digital artists like Craig Mullins" here is the problem Craig is a digital painter for highly detailed illustration for print, that's very very different field than painting for animation which use block fill colours. Not to mention backgrounds can still and are still painted traditionally, that's where you may have trouble with blending and nuance. I would not critique Yamashita on anything he does he's obvious a prolific talent, formal education or not and I cant even verify if he has not had one or not. Talking to actually animators like David Encinas who worked at Ghibli for a year he told me he learned more during that time than he did within 3 years at Gobelins. The key in the industry is having the mentorship and training from the studio opposed to be left without feedback or insight. "deeper exploration than what many anime journalists provide" I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, but yes it's very condescending. I have a 1st class degree in Illustration & I'm an animator I don't need basic art book recommendations.

[@TheAyman1825]

@@Stevem You can criticize auteurism all you want, but that won't erase the fact that many Japanese Anime, especially in the '90s, are director-based shows. Furuhashi's works serve as a prime example. Not all his shows share the same art director and colorist, yet you can still sense his style in cinematography. Even Miyazaki didn't consistently have the same art director and character designer for every movie, but you can unmistakably identify a Miyazaki film. I'm not undermining the role of art directors and color designers; I hold high regard for colorists like Michiyo Yasuda and art directors like Shinji Kimura and Aymeric Kevin. However, it's undeniable that directors play a significant role in determining the look of an anime. Take Yōji TAKESHIGE's work in Summer Wars, The Boy and Heron, and My Neighbors the Yamadas-can you argue they look the same? Of course not. The shift to digital undoubtedly alters styles and techniques. I'm not saying it can't reach the same heights as the cell era, but it requires substantial investments, and in the current anime scene, that seems unlikely to happen soon. As for AI upscaling, using a simplified and cheaply made anime as an example isn't fair. Let's see how it works on old-school OVAs or movies before passing judgment. So far, the fan posts I've seen showcase awful restoration, and given Japan's general approach to AI, I'm not optimistic. When Craig, a digital painter for highly detailed print illustrations, states that the most advanced digital painting software lacks the same range as traditional painting, how do you think anime painting software compares to cell paint? Please don't bring up shows with weak retro filters. Regarding Yamashita, fame doesn't shield your work from criticism. Being self-taught doesn't negate the issues I mentioned. While I acknowledge the importance of mentorship with Handa and Igarashi, I doubt major anime studios like Ghibli would accept someone without formal art training. While Mr. Encinas likely learned a lot at Ghibli, it doesn't erase the fact that most webgen artists won't be accepted there. "I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, but yes, it's very condescending." I don't have any ill intentions; I'm just stating that many anime journalists lack expertise in critiquing animation. "I have a 1st class degree in Illustration & I'm an animator. I don't need basic art book recommendations." I'm sorry; I didn't know. Can you share a link to your illustrations? When I saw your animations, I thought you were just starting out, as they resemble mine. Again, I apologize if you were offended, and I'd love to see your work.

[@CornishCreamtea07]

Do you know what the first full digipaint Commerical (not a tech demo) Anime was? The earliest one I've seen is Gestalt, 2 episode OVA, from January 97.

[@Stevem]

There's some 1995 series I think I'll look up the names in a bit

[@ayylmao884]

12:06 that isn't ghosting, it's interlacing. You can actually remove it relatively easy. They have after effects plugins to remove it or you can go in frame by frame and remove it manually in Photoshop. I know this because I've had to personally to this because the tv channel I work with still films in interlaced and I remove it from the digital version

[@Stevem]

Ghosting as in a basic term for the audience there's more issues there than just that because the bgs are a different frame rate etc read the post, no one is going into Photoshop to remove 26 EPS of interlacing problems in Japan

[@cy4n_knight_q8]

I didn't grow with 90s anime but it does indeed feel.. more valuable I guess. It's like today's Ai art vs hand drawn art where hand drawn art feel more genuine that the common basic ai art that doesn't feel as valuable

[@StuHarris]

Nary is there another uToob channel that truly captivates me as much you Stevem. I always walk away from your videos with so much; different perspectives, practical information, film and series suggestions. I've always enjoyed the more casual-intimate aspect of the channel. Not pretentious but would have every right to, if they cared about ego and not Anime.

[@Stevem]

Im Glad you like it !

[@jaydedartsph]

I think its about keeping it in the times of what they have then and what we have now. Both digital and traditional sense of animation are stressful regardless. Its how the visuals properly tell its story and its aspects of the medium its using.

[@sebastianuber4085]

Thx for the Content

[@Stevem]

cheers

[@elilamas4595]

Great video! Where did you get that purple hoodie??

[@Stevem]

It's from cool shirts I'm pretty sure there's still a promo code from me in my boy and heron video check the description should give a discount still I hope and link to their website

[@maximilianweiland7182]

I think you are the only other person I've ever seen mention Luna Clipper. I used to show that to friends back in the day. Such a wildly weird little piece of video history.

[@Stevem]

It's pretty wild

[@cro-magnum7642]

Wild how so little people are here

[@protato911]

This is the same case with "cgi vs practical" in the movie industry, its not about the tools, but the users. My biggest problem is that anime seem less diverse in terms of ideas and style compare to the 80s, 90s or even the early 2000s. Yes there are a lot of shits back then too, but I would take that over most of the generic Anime this days.

[@crestofhonor2349]

Every era has it's style. It's not really less diverse, you just have more to choose from. Plenty of shows have their own style different from everything else

[@Stevem]

​@@crestofhonor2349if anything it might be more diverse now it's much easier to be, especially as line processing lately has gotten so good that variates the types of looks you can capture in animation without the extra time problem

[@protato911]

@@crestofhonor2349 Lets agree to disagree. For me most Anime these days looks and feel the same to be, yes there are a few unique and ejoyable one from time to time, but most of the time its lacks the veriaty in stories and style in previous era. Not saying that is completely bbad, some people prefer familiarity, other variety, I prefer variety.

[@Stevem]

​@@protato911there's quite a variety out there if you look tbh, even when comparing the last couple of seasons elf related shows id say they all have a distinct visual presentation and vibes, if there's triggers new dungeon show, freiren, mushoku tensai or isekai ojisan etc. in the older days there was less work and generally it was grindhouse vague sci Fi, Mecha, shonen, romance

[@protato911]

@@Stevem In the pervious era there seems to be a more equal spread between each genre they tend to be bolder with their concepts (although not all stick its landing). But I would say with the recent 2 years or so in terms of variety its seem to get better with shows like Baki, Jojo's, edgerunner and Vinland saga (also include the shows you mentioned). Though not as cathered to my taste as priveous eras, I'm still somewhat enjoy it. But the amount of ganeric fantasies with teen protagonist/ school life/ slice of life romance out numbered those shows, including the one you mention by a lot. Again to me this isn't a bad thing even though the industries move away from the things I like, its an industry out to make money afterall, though I do glad that Cyberpunk, historical fiction or some of the more niche manga got adapted recently into decent show, even though the execution isn't perfect. But anyway really enjoy your video and I found it to be very informative and intersting.

[@richatdastkey3555]

Excellent source of content idek existed as always. Def looking for some of those documentaries later. Hopefully the whole world will look to treating workers better not only in animation but en masse as we've seen the proletariat sticking up for their rights on a massive unprecedented scale

[@Stevem]

Absolutely!

[@dave3076]

Worlds within worlds within worlds. I'm glad that @Stevem can cover all this so concisely yet thoroughly. As for the last 10 ish seconds: Time to evolve the economic system!

[@99Gara99]

This is what life is about, things are born, things die. I started watching anime in mid 90s as a kid and I absolutely love those things. Those other more naive and goofy anime style from 70s also died. Some people will enjoy todays anime but this style will eventually die as well. It's natural. The cycle of life.

[@FreedomFighterAsuka]

Digital and cel animation both have great anime and bad anime. I don't like how some people hate modern anime just because they're not cel animated. They forget that there were some bad shows made before 2000 too. People just don't remember them. And I guess nostalgia also plays a big factor. You also start missing something after it's truly gone.

[@Stevem]

It's true for sure

[@lawrenceanderson2741]

Good video, As an odd side note. I make little Cel animated films and shoot them on an old 16mm camera at home (as a hobby). What I find interesting/frustrating is that lots of the technical information on the special effects/camera work in Cel animation just doesn't exist anymore or is completely scattered to the winds (I have some Ideas why this is the case). But It's a shame when people talk retrospectively about the Cel medium and the transition to digital and few bring up the special effects/camera work for Cels just cause most can't explain/understand it properly, it's a lot of work and years of trial, error & discovery that someone had to learn in the first place which can't really be fully appreciated.

[@Stevem]

do you post them? I have worked with cels on my own time and 8mm film stock SFX stuff, a lot of film processing stuff is inherent to film camera process if we're talking about compositing lighting or backlight etc. Do you have something in mind because most things I can think didn't really disappear as they were translated into the digital process

[@lawrenceanderson2741]

Sadly I don't have any film scans at the moment just Cels I've done for t-shirt commissions. but I am working on a short film that hopefully I'll post by the end of this year - also that's cool tried some of this stuff yourself. On your response - It's not that the techniques disappeared with digital, far from it. It's more that how the same effect would have been done with Cels, film camera & the (very easy to screw up) work involved can't be fully appreciated. Just from lack of specific information on the processes involved, understanding or any number of reasons (particularly because average people don't do animation SFX work with film cameras).@@Stevem

[@Stevem]

@@lawrenceanderson2741 it's rare for people to ask about that stuff usually directors of photography in anime arent asked many questions about the process it's not as sexy as say drawing if I ever see any i'll probs ask a fair few questions on that side I've done a fair bit of compositing and collage in my time so It's a curiosity of mine usually seems to involve a lot of sliding things slowly and wiping off dust after.

[@lawrenceanderson2741]

There are a very small number of books on the subject but do leave a lot to the imagination. also that would probably throw them off guard in a good way to be asked questions about that stuff (Also lots of lens filters, backlit tinsel and wavy glass) 🙃 @@Stevem

[@Stevem]

TMS used to use door bug mesh or something over the images to create their crt effect for Ashita no Joe 2

[@giulyanoviniciussanssilva2947]

"Cursed be the guy on Reddit who made a friendship comparison without pretensions to what he thought of as an audience that loves anime from any era". And bless your channel for reminding me of Birdie The Mighty, I wanted to read the manga of this anime and I didn't remember the name.

[@zam6877]

Oh my gawd! I have been getting in drips about the hellscape of the work loads in anime When you described 2006, as I experienced it, of a peak, but the reality... ... it was the exhaustion and burnout that came afterwards Japan has become overcome with a toxic rigidity

[@stheteller7470]

Always an interesting topic. Its very cool that folks can pinpoint an era of anime based on the character designs alone, such as the late 2000s for code geass and black butler, with sharp hair, pointy chins, and long fingers. The oversaturation of the current industry is the reason why the infamous "moe-blob" style became so dominant, because it's the easiest and most common. And the current moe-blob style i think has been here since like 2013. Let us give infinite credit to the animators who work on whatever garbage they can in order to keep a roof over their head. And may we hope that unionization will happen. (Especially at mappa)

[@Stevem]

Moe blob aesthetic derived from media mixs beyond the animation I don't particularly think it's massively easier to draw neither since the studios I most think of with that is kyoani

[@stheteller7470]

@@Stevem oh I know where it started, but it exploded in popularity during the 2010s, and they haven't looked back. I usually think of mass-produced isekai, or light novel adaptations as the ones that hugely use it. Kyoani and haruhi, I would certainly point to as part of its popularity spike.

[@Stevem]

the problem i have with anything like this is it's a bit hard to categorise "style" like how would one even map "moe blob" at what point does chibi go to blob etc and then do you go through every single show released and categories it?

[@stheteller7470]

@Stevem I always saw it as very light line work on characters, bright colors, white splotches on the hair or skin, the eyes have the pupils take up 80% of the eyes, no noses, and usually the Matsumoto potato shape. I don't hate moe entirely, my favorite show of all time is moe, but it has a unique art style.

[@Stevem]

@@stheteller7470 is Azumanga Daioh moe blob or no

[@kevinstokes4936]

what is the song from the beginning of the video? it sounds so familiar, its similar to treasured memories from kingdom hearts but IK its not that ;-;, pls help Lmao

[@Stevem]

Erik Satie Gymnopédie 1-3 play throughout the video

[@joeyang5226]

hell ye steve get em with that satie opening that's how you know it's serious business

[@Stevem]

very serious

[@neilhannan7525]

In the end it doesn't matter Animation tyoe isn't a completion you can have bad movies with 2D or great movies with 3D animation It perfectly balanced with 2D and 3D Mix Arcane puss in boots Spiderverse tmnt all together ❤

[@Stevem]

sure i just wish the spiderverse animators had a better time that shit is crazy

[@Epck]

The community post popped up in my feed to get here, pleased it did

[@Stevem]

Glad I posted it then haha

[@Doomroar]

Painting on cels may look good, but boy does it seem like a hassle

[@Stevem]

its the worst

[@BradToon]

yo whats the music in the background? I hear it all over the place but I don’t know what it’s name is :)

[@Stevem]

in the source doc

[@zainmudassir2964]

R.I.P.

[@krunkle5136]

Anime is too samey now. 80s anime like City Hunter looked so different and lacked any CG. Some artists try to remake that style, but it's always noticeable.

[@The_Last_Data_Hound]

I love both mainly because I started curating what I watch more heavily. The early 2000's was such a magical time where everyone was experimenting during the transition with many character designs, animation styles and even music so I just stick to shows I believe carry the same principles. Yes it sucks having to wade through even more anime to find a gem but they do exist like Babylon, Pluto or Kizumongatari. My only complaint is bland 3D Models of both mecha, vehicles and characters.

[@Stevem]

unfortunately having mecha animators on hand is really hard you need experts and a lot of them are held up at sunrise or retiring now, although im hoping that blender makes it easier for teams to collab the 2d/3d mechanical aspect

[@xxpauloxx31]

The Brian Eno quote is really cool

[@Stevem]

Yeah it rings true

[@mree.9794]

Great video Steve

[@Stevem]

Thanks 👍

[@Hyde_Lawrence]

0:19 Looking at this frame. There's something i don't get. If you are an artist and work digitally with anime style. I'm pretty sure you can recreate this frame "look and feel" pretty easily. The drawing is great don't get me wrong, but there isn't so much depth to it. So if getting this look isn't that hard, why they had to change it so much? It seems to me that it was a decision, not because of lack of technology or some crazy adapting to the medium. Maybe they knew something about how ppl were responding to a more "cute" "bland" style? Maybe there's an anime that started this trend? idk. I hope i explained myself, english is not my native language.

[@crestofhonor2349]

Much of the work for the animators didn't change much as most continued to work on pen and paper. This is still a thing today although there is a greater number of animators who work on drawing tablets instead of pen and paper. The look isn't really determined by the animator but those in charge of the digital compositing. Digital compositing is what often times gives the look of a show. I suggest looking up some comparison shots of anime before and after digital compositing as it can give you a better look into why certain shows look a certain way. The art style debate and that can be more down to many mangaka shifting styles as different trends become popular. This has always been a thing though. The super cute "Moe" look was popularized in the 2000s though

[@Hyde_Lawrence]

@@crestofhonor2349 I just looked up some video about that and it looks like there's a lot of effects and filters applied to a base drawing being animated, even if it means the lines get really dull and robotic. I didn't knew about this, I guess is a part of speeding up the process but it looks like shit to be honest. I really thought the copy paste nature of drawing digitally would be enough of an advantage but i guess that's not how it's done.

[@crestofhonor2349]

@@Hyde_Lawrence You can't really copy paste much unless you're planning on reusing the same animation. It looks completely fine but it shifts from production to production. Much of it is dependent on the person in charge of the digital compositing. Look at how much One Piece changed when they went from the Whole Cake Arc to the Wano Arc. Big change

[@Stevem]

​@@Hyde_Lawrencethere's always been filters added and some productions to vectorise line work for a lot tech reason that have to do with internal resolutions and a lack of anti aliasing to help color faster, nowadays vectorizing line work comes with a lot of settings that can add all kinds of style or looks to the lines it's not the issue it was prior

[@MoonAnime]

It's cool to see the industry itself also romanticized the older days of itself. Stuffs like Megalo Box's attempt and even the grains in the recent Frieren. You know they love it too. The Gundam U.C.ENGAGE stuffs was mind-blowing. Using new tech, to make it feel old is also creativity itself. And even if we move forward, I hope looking back would always yield fruitful results. And yeah. Humans watch anime, and inject the 'soul' back into making them as artists. Need them lots to keep creating and get paid well.

[@Stevem]

I think people mistook what megalo box was doing because it's not exactly taking it back in the traditional way, it's taking it back a low quality vhs rips, that was the intent the show itself looks more like a 2005 style show with how it presents itself, the main thing it did was lower the pixel rate of everything back to 480p then scaled it back up again, there are now 4k versions of this show which to me is hilarious because it must be the most compromised 4k ever.

[@MoonAnime]

I see. I did heard it was a 'rocky' and shabby attempt? I'll try reading it up. It sounded like how I tried to make my text effects look older that few times lol. Maybe they could render the entire show using the original HD assets for the 4K? Either way it's kinda funny. Btw I couldn't find your website you mentioned in the ad read part. I'd like to browse your aesthetic plz link @@Stevem

[@Stevem]

I don't think those original versions exist anymore so for 4k they would have upscaled the 480p master (or the 1080p version of it) all the way to 4k I guess, I can only imagine it looks very crusty. yeah I'm not sure if theyre giving me a domain or not for it so the link i do have has a whack asss name, ill see if i can find it.

[@Stevem]

hawk-cowbell-8ea2.squarespace.com/?fbclid=IwAR002-dbMOJjL5OqqUe2pvBZDpfTOwCqp2t3rzNzXBfE_1Ki-epHlkHPHto

[@mariotriforce]

Good points 😃, I think theirs also an aspect of the style at the time too tho 🤔🤔, don't get me started on the rise of ai tho more people are going to be taken advantage of because line allways has to go up...

[@Stevem]

Style is a bit vague to like set down since it's always changing and is affected by outside factors like the adaptation source material

[@Sonicfalcon16]

we need to have a business that lets people cell animate for their youtube animation series

[@frankg111]

It's sad that the medium of cel animation was reaching fascinating highs, even with some of the issues that came with it, sad to see it just totally dumped away. Especially if you're going to bring up the suffering of animators. They all suffered to learn that craft and it got tossed away, and then many didn't have the time or energy to learn all the new computer stuff.

[@Stevem]

That's more do painters but painters transited into digi paint jobs or retired, it's not just problems but it wasn't really viable to keep movies going in the format because of cel situation and lack of mass produced paints

[@AINEET]

Cool video and cool glasses

[@Stevem]

thanks!

[@andrewumana9586]

That mic drop 🔥

[@gavinknightjackson6307]

How 80s and 90s animation gonna be better than alot of the stuff today

[@vangmx]

On a similar topic, most of today’s generation has never seen a 35mm print especially an animated film (via traditional cel method) on 35mm. Now, I’ve been telling my friend for years that we need to re-watch the Studio Ghibli films (pre-Princess Mononoke) on 35mm and he probably thinks I’m insane when there are perfect HD Blu-ray copies of the films. Back in 1998, a local university organized a Studio Ghibli film festival (right after when Disney had bought the rights) and when the first frames of “Kiki’s Delivery Service” was shown on the screen, my jaw literally dropped. You could actually feel the animated cels and even smell the paint. At the same time, you can visually see slight flaws and imperfections in the cel medium but that’s what made it felt more intimate. Fast forward to 2023, a friend takes me to watch “Porco Rosso” on the big screen (of course shown digitally) and that analog feel I remembered from 1998 has been lost. The images didn’t feel transparent. You no longer could feel the cels.

[@Stevem]

I mean if you can see it that way go for it but also it's not that available for most now

[@vangmx]

@@Stevem Yeah, it’s an amazing experience to watch an animated film made in the analog world on an analog format such as 35mm or 16mm being projected on a screen. The animated process was analog, the photography from cels to film was analog, the presentation was analog. Again, I can only describe it but words can’t truly explain it. It needs to be personally experienced.

[@Stevem]

well i grew up watching analogue animated movies via film cameras, though i cant say much about it, it was the norm@@vangmx

[@urbanyouths]

@@vangmx Maybe it's a bad transfer with loads of noise reduction (DVNR)?

[@vangmx]

@@urbanyouths Watching traditional cel anime on 35mm is definitely to look out for if you have the opportunity. It’s like listening to a vinyl record of a piece of music that was recorded and mixed on tape. There’s an organic look that’s lost when transferred to a digital format.

[@PiterburgCowboy]

FFS you really deserve many more subs at this point. The algo sucks.

[@Stevem]

eh its how these system be I could be doing a lot worse ahahah

[@Ezakur]

STEVEM doesn't miss

[@Stevem]

lol

[@eurekify1563]

Sorry babe, a new Stevem video just dropped.

[@Stevem]

it did just drop thats true

[@20th_century_specter]

The more technology advances, the more art suffers.

[@globanusopp3046]

Interesting video. But I'd like to disagree to some extent with the whole block starting with the Brian Eno quote. The imperfections of a medium are only part of it's signature or what defines it. If you think about it it is not even clear what "imperfections" in this context really means - technical limitations, time and money limitations, lack of artistic prowess or experience? And it's certainly not only when we move to "the next version" that the imperfections or the character of something is perceptible. When I played games on a C64 or an Amiga as a kid, pixel graphics looked like pixel graphics, 8-Bit sound or low rate samples sounded like what they were. Some devs and artists used it in a great way, some couldn't do it so well. I liked it then and I like it now. No hindsight required. The differences between tv and cinema are getting less pronounced by the year, still the defining characteristics of a night at the cinema are what they were since the talkies: moving pictures with sound experienced on a big screen in a somewhat social, somewhat anonymous setting. That is its main thing on a purely experiential level. These are not imperfections, though many people today don't value the experience as much as they find it inconvenient. And finally: sometimes imperfections are introduced deliberately for the sake of expression - just think about the various distortion and fuzz effects used in pop music since roughly the 60s. So I would say it is the character of something and the way people work with it that defines that something aesthetically. Imperfections are merely one part of that character and not necessarily the defining one.

[@globanusopp3046]

To give a slightly clearer example: In Photography when digital sensors where put on the market, the quality for most people dropped significantly. As with digital production techniques in Anime the reasons were convenience oriented and also promised a reduction in cost in the long run. I don't see many examples of early 2000s potato quality photographs around today. Not all imperfections are created equal.

[@Stevem]

I don't think the full quote is really on about all imperfections being equal, “Whatever you now find weird, ugly, uncomfortable and nasty about a new medium will surely become its signature. CD distortion, the jitteriness of digital video, the crap sound of 8-bit - all of these will be cherished and emulated as soon as they can be avoided. It’s the sound of failure: so much modern art is the sound of things going out of control, of a medium pushing to its limits and breaking apart. The distorted guitar sound is the sound of something too loud for the medium supposed to carry it. The blues singer with the cracked voice is the sound of an emotional cry too powerful for the throat that releases it. The excitement of grainy film, of bleached-out black and white, is the excitement of witnessing events too momentous for the medium assigned to record them.” More so that the general critiques around a medium tend to define how we remember them and emulated them. Say for example when seeing 3d low poly game throwbacks back bring back the warping that texture would do on the PS1 or the crushed image prerendered BGs etc. Although I think his ultimate goal is to say mediums are defined by their limitations and that is a very musical way of thinking I have a whole book on the history of music productions and yeah that was a defining factor what are it's limits and where is this music being played, Wall of sound etc.

[@globanusopp3046]

​@@Stevem Yes, I see your point. Still, it seems to me that Eno is describing it from one perspective only. His first mistake is a focus on "now" and later ("as soon as they can be avoided"). A naivety phase and a melancholic grown up phase. I claim that the character of some medium or technique is there and perceptible from the beginning and can be recognized and cherished right in its time. His second mistake is the emphasis on overload/pushing limits/failure as the main mechanism for character. The distorted guitar for example can be viewed in the way he describes, as the accidental result of a signal being too loud for the medium. But it can also be viewed as the opposite: Crafting a sound (with then pretty modern electronic components), deliberately molding a sound into something more than the base material - i.e. if you put a guitar signal through a well made distortion effect harmonics are added, responsiveness and sound pallette are enhanced. It's a transformation rather than a detoriation. His third mistake is pointing only to the "weird, ugly" stuff and forecasting that as the signature in the future. That is a narrow view and expectation. E.g. the signature of digital audio hasn't been its shortcomings in the beginning but its malleability and convenience - with all the good and bad consequences - from the start. I'll give to him that shortcomings and failures are interesting in their own right. Like you mentioned PS1 texture warping. It's interesting as a technical and economic limitation and it's interesting on its own, the experiential effect that is has. I think that looking at context, place, commercial and cultural preferences at the time can inform us and help us appreciate what came before. And we can, should and do also take something as it presents itself to us now, take it serious in the now, devoid of nostalgia or failure aesthetics. PS: The blues singer is Eno's best example, but the film grain example is most stupid. No one (I hope) needs a reminder that most events are complicated and all are impossible to record in full. I don't see excitement there and I don't think that is the appeal.

[@globanusopp3046]

In the Anime context this means: there have been limitations in the old, pre-digital way of producing it. Frame rates, complexity of designs, accuracy of perspective etc. But the main thing that we as humans seek was well refined and came quite naturally - the expressiveness and relatability in graphics and animation. The digital way of doing things got rid of some limitations and introduced new ones, as you explained mainly for convenience and profit. But as it happens those were less nice or relatable than the old ones. Same with architecture, same with car design, same with modern pop music. It all shifted to a weird state where it became less human. That's what I mean when I say "imperfections are not created equal". The worst is still to come when A.I. really takes over artistic production.

[@ariah5093]

The best thing about aesthetic is Artists can do whatever aesthetic they want. Also, the technology was different in the 90s, people dressed different, used different technology and verbiage. All those subtle nuances add up without you really realizing. I was watching Monster last night and was admiring the same things about it. You can’t capture that aesthetic anymore unless you’re purposely trying by thinking about all the nuances that go with it.

[@Stevem]

Monster was digitally painted so I don't know if the aesthetic is millions of miles away, though it does have very specific members working on it. It depends how far you want to make the distinction between Monster and say Pluto from last year

[@ariah5093]

@@Stevem I guess what I mean is the vibe it gave off. The box tvs, phone booths, going to the library to do research, the way they dressed and how the entire thing had early 2000s Hollywood true crime vibes. Does that make sense? I’m not really talking about the mechanics of how it was made or the medium. But of course all those things you mentioned play a big roll in how it feels

[@Stevem]

Ah I see, well as far as I understand the Manga for Monster started in the mid 90s but was set in 80s Europe so I suppose it was already a period piece before its 2004 anime debut. Of course how much the anime crew expanded and change the setting now it's animated could also be a factor since you'll have to see it a lot more in motion.

[@p0k314COM]

Very good video.

[@Stevem]

thank you!

[@HydraSpectre1138]

Studio Ghibli also likes emulating the look of 35mm film in their films, even the 3D CGI one. They add film grain and gate weave, and some smoothness to make their films look a bit more like cel anime. Or maybe a digital animated film given a 35mm filmout.

[@Stevem]

It's on 35mm film even now

[@Stevem]

Actually the new one is on IMAX so that's 70mm I think

[@HydraSpectre1138]

@@Stevem Ghibli films are digital film now. But they do get rare 35mm filmouts. And digital releases like on DCPs and Blu-ray are indeed filtered to look like 35mm film. The Boy and the Heron never played in IMAX 70mm. The only IMAX 70mm release of 2023 was Oppenheimer.

[@Stevem]

@@HydraSpectre1138 I'm pretty sure ghibli would still print the film onto a negative digitally shot movies still do this for preservation, that's their style. also the film was shown in IMAX I assumed that meant it would be on 70mm but either way it whatever format they need www.digitalspy.com/movies/a46064733/boy-and-heron-studio-ghibli-imax/

[@HydraSpectre1138]

@@Stevem Their digital films are filtered to look like 35mm on DCPs and Blu-rays. There are digitally-shot films that had filmouts for their releases (even in digital formats) like Dune. But this is not the case. The 35mm filmouts are done entirely for archival purposes. Also, no 70mm filmouts were made. Unfortunately.

[@DennisTrovato]

I wish there was a modern anime that's produced digitally but manages to replicate 90s style and aesthetics.

[@Stevem]

Scott Pilgrim uses a lot of 90s techniques for sure, Gundam's Game basically does it perfectly although not an anime. There's an episode of pop team epics latest season which has, but it's only an episode. I think the thing is the idea of that kinda revival is a little more niche in Japan. Although who knows what the future holds.

[@Drstrange3000]

Megalo Box is the biggest example I can find. I also feel Pluto has a lot of that 90's style and aesthetics mixed in with modern techniques and CG.

[@Stevem]

I've never super agreed with Megalo because the choices used in the show look more like an early digital show than a traditional show, the director has talked more so that the idea was to create something that looks like a VHS rip opposed to a traditional anime. The linework has a bit of grit to it I suppose but there's not a ton compositing going on they simply downscale the image then upscale in back up to full res

[@cannonfodder4000]

I liked your previous less click baity title of why anime stopped using cels, but good video

[@Stevem]

Previous titles such as "... PROBLEM?"

[@Stevem]

Wait what there was no previous title for this video??? You are the second person to mention this... did you click on this via twitter or something that was just a description of the video i didnt put the title on there

[@cannonfodder4000]

@@Stevem No this video was recommended to me on KZbin, no links, the title said something about cels, not an overblown title like THE DEATH OF CLASSIC ANIME, I literally saw it a few hours ago lol

[@Stevem]

​@@cannonfodder4000this literally has always been the title it was never about cels unless you were looking at the description

[@cannonfodder4000]

There's literally multiple people telling you they remember the older, better title, you want to keep the newer shittier click bait title? keep it, but stop wasting my time with these stupid lying replies@@Stevem