The Death of the Power Forward

[@damonsonnier34]

Giannis is the only true Power Forward left. He inherited the Point Forward skills from both Kevin Garnett and Jason Kidd after several practice sessions learning from them, and currently he is shooting 48FG% from the midrange this season as well.

[@KevoJr]

@@damonsonnier34 yea he’s easily the best PF (arguably player) in the game right now

[@landphilspecter]

Zion too, if he could stay on the court...

[@12savage68]

What about Paolo , Julius randle, an jaren Jackson ..what positions do they play?

[@danialpth]

@@12savage68they all can shoot. Giannis cant shoot 3s consistently

[@12savage68]

@@danialpth what does shooting 3's have to do with being a real pf? Guys like dirk , Antoine walker , rasheed Wallace , and Antwan Jamison could shoot too and they were pfs.

[@paye192]

2019 Detroit Griffin was a joy to watch, underrated

[@_Larzy]

Man gave his heart and soul for that team.

[@smike7309]

I was a lob city era clippers fan so it was so amazing to see Blake create his own offense and facilitate for others. I really wish he didn’t force himself on the court for the playoffs.

[@exeterra4825]

The most complete Blake ever was in his career. One of the most underrated individual seasons ever

[@DCT97]

@@exeterra4825facts I was just about to say the same thing. His game was the most well-rounded it had ever been and his outside shot was honed-in

[@georgiosgrigoriadis6200]

Probably his best season. He was a complete player that year. Too bad, it was his last great season, because injuries destroyed him.

[@YodaSmokes]

Chris Bosh deserved a mention amongst the finesse 4s

[@dtraversodt]

Absolutely, he credits Garnett and Duncan as players he modeled his game after

[@shawnvargas9587]

There's a lot to mention Chris Bosh, Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand, Amare stoudemire

[@jphillips7495]

@@shawnvargas9587yessir. Gotta put sheed and LA in there too man. Truly beautiful basketball back then man

[@michaelcoletta4547]

And Al Jefferson as a post-dominant 4 (or small 5) on offense... dude was one of my favorite players to watch operating in the post. His instincts, footwork, and finesse around the rim were so silky smooth.

[@Andy_Babb]

@@michaelcoletta4547lol you did not just say Al Jefferson 😂

[@professortristannelson3977]

In every era there are positions that are either devalued, typecast, or simply lack generational talent. The early 2000s saw the "death" of the point guards, while the 2010s saw the "death" of the center. New eras provide new styles of basketball, it is as simple as that.

[@TOKYO9AIN]

👏🏾👏🏾 preach

[@often5851]

Cooper Flagg will bring the power forward back

[@RefRed_King]

@@often5851 alright

[@mertholomy8414]

@@often5851💀

[@jjdillon1207]

The point guard died because AI was so dominant that other teams and players thought it was a way to win. They were wrong

[@AfricanH3ro]

the 4s today are just 3s

[@Kizamusic]

Yea the 4s of the past are basically extinct

[@Lonewanderer1738]

I was going to say some teams run three wings which are pretty much 3s

[@jerkkkkitlb]

@@Kizamusic4s back then were skilled 5s

[@SHAKE-S-PIERRE]

@@KizamusicThere’s only a few left who start in the pros.

[@Mr_Raagerr]

If you say that then you can also say the 5s are just 4s.

[@dimelo58]

Mobley looking scary out there he seems to be really patient under control and methodical It’s like he’s moving at his own pace waiting for any opening

[@samhartje723]

I would probably prefer him as a center though.

[@Jmoneynasty]

@@samhartje723 Why? That's Allen spot lol

[@DirectedXDW]

⁠@@samhartje723eh he’s better as a 4 man, way more nimble and agile at his frame. He’s solid as an emergency center. Putting him as a full time center will have him putting on a bunch of unnecessary weight turning him into a Mitchell Robinson type player. Always injured

[@DMCdaJUICE]

I thought he'd be Duncan 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@bryann25]

@@DirectedXDWwell damn then what’s the ideal center lol

[@papakimchitv674]

The late 2000's Orlando Magic's 4out-1in scheme worked so well because Rashard and Hedo were both 6'10". They didn't really lose any ceiling. And with both being so skilled in the perimeter, it allowed Howard to wreak havoc inside.

[@dtraversodt]

That team was such a beast that went to the Finals vs the Lakers

[@benblack6375]

Really well done man. Stick to this you’re talented and a blow up is coming soon.

[@Evergarden7186]

2000's was so stacked of elite and good quality PFs. Duncan, Dirk, KG, Webber, Sheed, Jermaine, Gasol, Kenyon, McDyes, Brand, Reef, Antoine Walker, Jamison

[@TheBest0704]

Odom

[@MrRoda8143]

Amare Stoudamire was terrific as well. Too bad his knee injuries shortened his career

[@TheBest0704]

@@MrRoda8143 Bosh

[@brooooooooooo5449]

@@TheBest0704odom is a sf during their era. You may look back now and think of him as a stretch four. But back in the laker days, he was sf with Gasol and Bynum in the middle

[@TheBest0704]

@ I had Heat season tickets when Odom started at the 4 for a year

[@joshuahodge8804]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Jaren Jackson Jr. he offers the perfect blend of the old school power forward and the modern version all in one.

[@playably]

Yep I'm fan of the Grizzlies. Jaren is a true power forward. Grizzlies also run the 5 position with Zach Edey. Remnants of the old NBA are still there.

[@mr.crispyfriedchicken3946]

​@playably I mean size wise he's still a power forward, but skill wise even he's more of a small forward. He spends way more time at the three point line than a traditional 4 ever did

[@YooAPbruh]

Trip J is kinda like all of these 4 mentioned PF play types.. combined in one, some days he trying to bruiser his way out some times he just shoots 3...

[@kuyab9122]

@@playably Hence the whole point of OP's comment?

[@np5598]

Also Paolo Banchero

[@iiBandage]

Their like the TE of the NBA. Don’t get recognized as much (or paid the same as other positions) but if a team has a good PF then they are typically a decent. Underrated position in today’s league. Good video!

[@kibskibs498]

More like fullback. Their prime, just like Fullbacks, were in the 90s-2000s. Now only a few teams have a true PF, just true fullbacks

[@zeronashtyness]

​@@kibskibs498no its TE. like he said. People always twist with others say. He said what he said. Make your own comment and opinion.

[@Ridewithdoc]

The Robert Horry effect. Before Steph made nba media realize math exists, Robert Horry moved from a 3 to a 4 for “spacing” around Dream and Shaq and Duncan. Once less post players were around, now everybody needs to shoot for real.

[@damonsonnier34]

@@Ridewithdoc Before Robert Horry, there was Kevin Willis and Bob McAdoo. They were both Power Forwards who shot a lot from beyond the paint.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

​@@damonsonnier34 also Tom Chambers

[@DEVILONBOTHSHOULDERS]

@@damonsonnier34the thing is horry is built to play the 3, whereas the two u listed are built to be 4s, the importance of the horry move is that he role swapped into a physically larger position, kinda like when bosh swapped to center

[@fred-s7e]

Robert horry has pedestrian stats and even from the three point line but his advance stats and offensive rating was so incredibly high! It’s like Reggie miller, LeBron James level of high rating and that includes the playoffs. His ability to stretch the floor as a big forward was so valueable

[@Ridewithdoc]

@ people underrate the difference in pace in the Shaq era. A lot of peoples numbers were down. League was set for 2 guys to score and the rest get scraps. Now it’s more possessions due to pace. Everybody gets a third scorer with decent averages and still others can get 10 points.

[@ays8975]

Thank you so much for this video. This is my favorite position but it feels like it's just becoming "small forward but taller". The best power forwards are really the only ones still carrying the position's legacy somewhat.

[@NailCakrabuana]

dude this is some high quality vids, you deserve more subs fr

[@hpavil]

in an ever increasing sea of clickbait and ai generated slop content, we need to cherish talented up and coming creators like this. subbed and looking forward to more.

[@Justfrank_0]

Im half way through i had to stop and appreciate the work put in. Man this is good content bro, the narration and everything, i like the background music too. Keep em coming please. Can’t believe u don’t have more subs. New sub!

[@stewiegriffinfan18]

Probably because he doesnt interact with his viewers. If you have 10k or fewer subs, you should interact with your audience if you want to grow. This is the difference between KZbin and ESPN. As of this second, he has 408 views on his first video and hasn't interacted with a single comment. I don't want to subscribe to that. Obviously, if you have 100k subs, you would need to make a bot to interact with subs but I know one 30k subs guy (Magic Mitch) that responds to every single comment and I really respect that

[@Justfrank_0]

@@stewiegriffinfan18 good point bro💯

[@stewiegriffinfan18]

@@Justfrank_0 :)

[@korygrey6170]

Facts

[@Jacquesoles]

Love that video as my all time nba favorite position is the power forward. That’s great that you were able to find the great terminology for each era of four man as it is a hard thing to describe concisely. Would be great to do a video about the center position as a lot of power forward started playing the position and got thinner through time. Keep it up!

[@breez4798]

The Power Foward position was always my favorite growing up. C Webb , Tim Duncan, KG, were some of my favorites

[@jazzchromaticdulcimer4223]

Great video! The death of the power forward is something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit over the years.

[@charlesfair6162]

You did some phenomenal research on this vid man bravo, was a great watch

[@j-us-t_be-in-g]

This was a great video! Great break down of old school power forwards to modern power forwards. I don't mind today's game. I just don't like the forced offensive sets just to shoot threes. Actually run offensive sets and get the best available. If I'm a coach, I would want ALL of my players to be as skilled as possible to optimize their skillsets to make the offense more unpredictable.

[@enviedeveryday2835]

There is only one dirk

[@Smokinglayups]

Better than so much basketball content on youtube; great job. Subscribed.

[@pdb2k154]

My favorite Position as a kid ❤️ nothing like watching the great power forwards of the 2000’s

[@ger.m.a.ngiant1644]

To my understanding from watching basketball , the role of forward means versatility. For example, I expect my small forward to be able to do a bit of everything but more to the perimeter side of the court mean while my power forward is the same as a small forward but does more paint oriented things. For example, Tim Duncan for power forward, he was the best at what a power forward does and was still a great player as a center. Next example is Scottie pippen, he was good at everything but excelled in perimeter defense and shoot creation where he could play the role of point forward. Forwards are like connectors between a guard and a big and without them, you will lose.

[@edokhagbaisak6145]

Pippen is a small forward

[@kuyab9122]

@@edokhagbaisak6145 Read OP's comment again. You misunderstood.

[@therealdeal717]

A taller longer power forward can always be utilized as a center. As a 2 guard with good handles can be utilized as a point guard.

[@matthewnuhfer6851]

Thoughtful, knowledgeable, & comprehensive content. Keep up the good work

[@sponko]

Great vid bro I love that you just kept going through examples really went deep in the bag

[@TrivicalMC]

Good quality video, good shit ur channel gon grow

[@justyouraveragejoe9060]

Fax this is quality

[@frutur3367]

man i hope you blow up this video was so well done man hats off to you you gained me as a sub

[@yohanntrouve3173]

Rarely have i watched such a good and unbiased video about basket recently. Very good stuff there mate 👍.

[@Laurence1987uk]

Great video, on point analysis, you're criminally undersubscribed!

[@555kuletus]

That’s how sports are always evolving. You either adapt or you’re goner.

[@BackboardBuoy.2zqwa]

This is so true. Last time we've ever seen an actual powerforward act like how they are traditionally since Giannis, Aaron Gordon, JJJ, and Zion is 2016 with KG, and Tim, and almost the entire career of Blake Griffin. Dirk plays like a guard who doesn't average many assists but instead rebounds, Kukoc plays too like a guard, Bron plays like a forward with Magic Johnson type playmaking, Tatum doesn't even act like a PF, Porzingis is just a tall shooting guard, KD has a small forward's body with shooting guard abilities, and alot more. The traditional Power forward position is dying soon. I Just hope someone can revive it soon.

[@gedgenil9246]

I did not know Zion was already in the league in 2016

[@BackboardBuoy.2zqwa]

@ Dude you're dyslexic

[@jonathanglennon1325]

Curious if the weight gain in 2010/2011 had anything to do with guys getting out of shape from the lockout that year

[@darthvader9884]

Amazing content u just gained a new fan

[@YSOchris]

Insanely good video man. Great attention to detail.

[@GIMMETHELOOTNOW]

Video going viral... great work💯💯

[@elijahwashington6228]

Great video bro, keep going.

[@POLYNESlA]

Great breakdown

[@naeem025]

Get this dude a podcast!! Every video he puts out is a solid take. I appreciate the time and effort he’s putting into these videos keep it up💯

[@KidBakz]

Whats sad is this the position that made me start watching NBA in the first place. Really stacked talent at that time and now its just treated as secondary small forwards. Potential PFs are played as centers or become backup centers

[@martytu20]

Draymond can play anywhere from a 4 to a 5 to a 1 in one play sequence. Scottie Barnes is theoretically a small forward, but his skill set can fit anywhere from 1 to 3 to 4 to 5. Positional versatility now means size and skills matter more to avoid being “matchup hunted” by the offense.

[@icrashout]

The power forward position was so deep back then

[@vone77]

Excellent analysis!

[@GsaSteve]

You got my sub man, this video was excellent, I never grew up watching ball n got involved during the 2020 season, but have a certain fondness for the Traditional 2000’s 4, with Duncan, Webber, and Garnett.

[@CorbanNBA]

This is brilliant content. Thank you so much for such a well crafted video.

[@stevenvaldezii7936]

Truly high quality content

[@Spider-Complexion]

I really enjoyed the video and the history you gave. I hope you can make a follow up or another kind of video to also acknowledge the 70’s where the PF position also had great players. Even some that replicate our modern stretch 4 is someone like Dave DeBusschere and he was even 6’6”, which is something we see today.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

Very true

[@chrisb.5351]

Yooo this video was so good. Loved how you broke everything down. Subscribed!

[@Benjibeatsmusic]

Rusty buckets made this video like a year ago, better researched and edited, imo this is kinda copycat

[@chrisb.5351]

@ You want a medal for pointing this out?

[@AboutVelvet]

Nice video, i love seeing the evolution

[@Sosmixes]

Boris Diaw the real finesse 4

[@nycpologod_759]

Love the bruisers

[@jahimuddin2306]

I miss the traditional power forwards. I always love watching big guys barrel to the basket, leaving bodies in their wake. Giannis and Zion are the only true power forwards left. Even Mobley seems to like to post up more than others.

[@thebassmaster5257]

Sweet video hella detail love this!!!

[@bobbituka123]

Dude, GREAT analysis. Original and interesting.

[@bohanxu6125]

Rusty Bucket pretty much made the same video with the same title years ago.

[@bigpapapaycheck]

Hey dude, this is fabulous. Thanks

[@Tagakanal]

I learned so much from this vid

[@biba8163]

A lot of this is wrong including what JJ Reddict, Van Gundy and mike D'Antoni said as far as them being innovators of the 1-in-4-out. The Houston Rockets won their 2nd championship with 1-in-4-out with Hakeem, Horry, Mario Elie, Drexler and Kenny Smith. Horry at PF shot over 40% in the playoffs. When we first saw this as kids, we were like you the hell are you supposed to stop that? Phil Jackson then took the same formula and put Shaq, Horry, Fox, Kobe, Fisher. In the 3peat, Horry shot 39% from the 3 and was playing most of the minutes at PF in the playoffs.

[@KevoJr]

Yea there are a lot more instances well before my time where non traditional forwards were starting at PF. The list runs super deep!

[@damonsonnier34]

@@biba8163 There were the Suns with Oliver Miller, Charles Barkley, Richard Dumas, Dan Majerle, Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, and Danny Ainge. They were also a 3-point shooting team as well.

[@biba8163]

@@KevoJr I think the first of the innovators were Rick Pitino and a lot of it was in college. He had Kentucky getting 1/3 of their points from the 3 and a 6'7 power forward Jamal Mashburn shooting 5 threes per game one year and averaging 43% 3PT another year. Pitino also had NY bombing 3s with even Oakley shooting 3s one year, then Antoine Walker as PF attempting 4 3s per game in Boston. Don Nelson has had years without a center much less a PF with 6'7 guys like Higgins and Tolbert playing the 4 and 5 positions.

[@brendankelly2653]

You know mate, the 3 most underrated power forwards I can think of is Anthony Mason, Sam Perkins and Bobby Jones. Mason was a point power forward, Sam Perkins was a rebounding 3 point specialist (before Kevin Love) and Bobby Jones (who probably one of most versatile defenders of all time). 🙂 I forgot about Larry Johnson, Toni Kukoc and Rasheed Wallace too. 🙂

[@aneedkassim9727]

the last true power forward who allowed to bang down low as a teams focal point was Zach Randolph. The last true post centers got phased out as well in Dwight and Drummond and Jordan. now its a bunch or wings playing "position less ball" so small ball and 3s can continue to be the style. this is why that kid Lofton wasn't allowed a real opportunity. Jahlil Okafor was turned off as well

[@hawkname1234]

Draymond Green was the prototype 3&D "tweener" 4. He steps up to play the "speed 5" in death lineups that want to go fast.

[@terrancethomas9792]

The first true Power Forward was Portland’s Maurice Lucas. Forwards that battled with centers who from the 50’s to the 90’s where the key position on the team.

[@yairlegendkillerrodriguez9499]

High basketball iq in this video, I’m expecting a lot more of this young fella. New subscriber!

[@calmislamly]

Solid breakdown bro

[@g-money9009]

This is some good content brother good work

[@jackiegshop]

good video and analysis bro!!

[@Pastosman]

Great video my guy, very good research

[@culturalcrowns]

This is elite research, bro. Keep it up. You'll beat Jimmy Highroller with this kind of presentation.

[@Littlefinger-007]

This was a good stuff! Bravo!

[@timl9724]

Don Nelson pioneered the face up/stretch/wing four, moving Rod Higgins, a three point shooting wing, which was pretty rare even at the three position at the time, over to the four during the 88-89 season.

[@timl9724]

Nelson was always WAAYY too far ahead of his time, trying to draft Webber to play the 5, in an era with crazy powerful centers, and convincing 7-7 Manute Bol to shoot threes. His ideas were scooped up by later coaches, like D'Antoni and Van Gundy, when the time was actually right for those changes.

[@bsq_2x70]

Love your approach to the video. The biggest shift started w/ Dirk imo. Guys start off as small forwards and the league pushing them to the 4 as they did with Carmelo. Carmelo didn’t really want to be a pf but he was forced to in the middle of his career.

[@ninjaoftherift1620]

Dirk is 7ft so he'd be a center. Rly

[@bsq_2x70]

@ KD 7ft too & he don’t wanna be nowhere near the center spot lol

[@andrebryant5081]

​@@ninjaoftherift1620 Dirk was considered soft back then didn't want to protect the paint as the last line of the defense

[@bsq_2x70]

@@andrebryant5081 that’s a fact

[@27carloyu]

4 out 1 in for me is the best blend of everthing. an elite post up scorer with elite shooters. perfect mix of past and present

[@richardcollins2622]

Very insightful video. Well done.

[@alexwilliamson338]

Great analysis,

[@KickingitwitLj]

Fully watched both of the Sponsored ads for you

[@ApolloAmbrosius]

I’m a simple man. I see OG in the video thumbnail, I click

[@faceman7966]

Great video

[@3PTBall]

Great Video man!

[@KungFuGip]

Keep working hard bro ✊🏾

[@StevenJSkiba]

Jokic is a traditional PF playing at the Center position now. We're seeing a transformation at the 5 now.

[@KM-lb8zn]

no he’s a centre

[@ronmoney2828]

No he is not

[@Talismanos]

Cant make a video about PF in this Era without Giannis is the Epitopy of new era PF ,Can play C,PG and wing on Offence and can guard everything

[@user-nt1jf3yl3f]

GREAT VIDEO. GREAT BREAKDOWNS. PROPS..

[@jed.x2907]

Great video!! New fan. The power forward in the Women's game is on the rise.

[@triggerbogarin9702]

5 minutes in, you earned a sub.

[@michaelcoletta4547]

He wasn't the best overall player by a mile (and at his defensive peak was average at best), but I was absolutely obsessed with Al Jefferson's offensive game. It was a beautiful thing to behold, a throwback even in his time.

[@marcuslouison3998]

Phenomenal video.

[@halimuyak3577]

Great work

[@darrtrubb]

I’ve been wondering about this very question for quite some time now 🏀

[@Balla13]

the thing is those teams maybe shot more threes then other teams in the league, but they didn't shot as many 3s as teams today. So it was more interesting to watch different styles of plays and more balanced basketball and not a 3-point contest

[@jaybryant8626]

Good breakdown

[@tl2931]

Good breakdown man! Do centers next!

[@TooDopeJohnSan]

Wow. Well done video.

[@hindiakoto3558]

late 90s and early 2000's are the golden age of PF.

[@karimw.9954]

As per the NBA's Q&A page: The power forward does many of the things a center does, playing near the basket while rebounding and defending taller players. But power forwards also take longer shots than centers. I see this prototype of player every night.

[@sebsss1326]

Great video man

[@ck9365-p5v]

6:24 I would argue Don Nelson's Mavericks preceded D'Antoni in this style of play. It was the main reason they originally built around Dirk and Nash. But after Nelson left and Nash was traded to the Suns, Dirk began to be encouraged by subsequent coaches to further develop his post game, and the Mavs became more of a half court team. But they were the Beta version for this style of play. Mavs rately get credit for this today, but they were criticized for trying it back then. Give Don his due.

[@shamikgonzalez7718]

forgot to shoe some love to chris bosh for the fusion fours, he was lowkey a glimpse of what was to come

[@Skinslyfe]

Good shout

[@chevonnwosu5843]

Amazing video

[@Rice-And-Gravy]

Great video man. Earned a sub. Make more videos like this please!

[@ChristopherPorter-n7r]

The new era of basketball sucks to watch. Low post play is my favorite because of the skill.

[@timl9724]

LeBron was humiliated in his first Finals with the Heat, so he worked on his game, adding post skills to his arsenal. He then played mostly at the four the following season. While he had those point forward and slashing wing skills, he also had the size and post skills to play like a traditional 4. So it wasn't a big stretch to move him to the four.

[@TetFeMal]

Thank you for reminding me basketball is a tactical game.