The Death of the Power Forward

[@damonsonnier34]

Giannis is the only true Power Forward left. He inherited the Point Forward skills from both Kevin Garnett and Jason Kidd after several practice sessions learning from them, and currently he is shooting 48FG% from the midrange this season as well.

[@KevoJr]

@@damonsonnier34 yea he’s easily the best PF (arguably player) in the game right now

[@landphilspecter]

Zion too, if he could stay on the court...

[@12savage68]

What about Paolo , Julius randle, an jaren Jackson ..what positions do they play?

[@danialpth]

@@12savage68they all can shoot. Giannis cant shoot 3s consistently

[@12savage68]

@@danialpth what does shooting 3's have to do with being a real pf? Guys like dirk , Antoine walker , rasheed Wallace , and Antwan Jamison could shoot too and they were pfs.

[@AfricanH3ro]

the 4s today are just 3s

[@Kizamusic]

Yea the 4s of the past are basically extinct

[@Lonewanderer1738]

I was going to say some teams run three wings which are pretty much 3s

[@jerkkkkitlb]

@@Kizamusic4s back then were skilled 5s

[@SHAKE-S-PIERRE]

@@KizamusicThere’s only a few left who start in the pros.

[@Mr_Raagerr]

If you say that then you can also say the 5s are just 4s.

[@paye192]

2019 Detroit Griffin was a joy to watch, underrated

[@_Larzy]

Man gave his heart and soul for that team.

[@smike7309]

I was a lob city era clippers fan so it was so amazing to see Blake create his own offense and facilitate for others. I really wish he didn’t force himself on the court for the playoffs.

[@exeterra4825]

The most complete Blake ever was in his career. One of the most underrated individual seasons ever

[@DCT97]

@@exeterra4825facts I was just about to say the same thing. His game was the most well-rounded it had ever been and his outside shot was honed-in

[@georgiosgrigoriadis6200]

Probably his best season. He was a complete player that year. Too bad, it was his last great season, because injuries destroyed him.

[@professortristannelson3977]

In every era there are positions that are either devalued, typecast, or simply lack generational talent. The early 2000s saw the "death" of the point guards, while the 2010s saw the "death" of the center. New eras provide new styles of basketball, it is as simple as that.

[@TOKYO9AIN]

👏🏾👏🏾 preach

[@often5851]

Cooper Flagg will bring the power forward back

[@RefRed_King]

@@often5851 alright

[@mertholomy8414]

@@often5851💀

[@jjdillon1207]

The point guard died because AI was so dominant that other teams and players thought it was a way to win. They were wrong

[@dimelo58]

Mobley looking scary out there he seems to be really patient under control and methodical It’s like he’s moving at his own pace waiting for any opening

[@samhartje723]

I would probably prefer him as a center though.

[@Jmoneynasty]

@@samhartje723 Why? That's Allen spot lol

[@DirectedXDW]

⁠@@samhartje723eh he’s better as a 4 man, way more nimble and agile at his frame. He’s solid as an emergency center. Putting him as a full time center will have him putting on a bunch of unnecessary weight turning him into a Mitchell Robinson type player. Always injured

[@DMCdaJUICE]

I thought he'd be Duncan 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@bryann25]

@@DirectedXDWwell damn then what’s the ideal center lol

[@papakimchitv674]

The late 2000's Orlando Magic's 4out-1in scheme worked so well because Rashard and Hedo were both 6'10". They didn't really lose any ceiling. And with both being so skilled in the perimeter, it allowed Howard to wreak havoc inside.

[@joshuahodge8804]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Jaren Jackson Jr. he offers the perfect blend of the old school power forward and the modern version all in one.

[@playably]

Yep I'm fan of the Grizzlies. Jaren is a true power forward. Grizzlies also run the 5 position with Zach Edey. Remnants of the old NBA are still there.

[@mr.crispyfriedchicken3946]

​@playably I mean size wise he's still a power forward, but skill wise even he's more of a small forward. He spends way more time at the three point line than a traditional 4 ever did

[@Ridewithdoc]

The Robert Horry effect. Before Steph made nba media realize math exists, Robert Horry moved from a 3 to a 4 for “spacing” around Dream and Shaq and Duncan. Once less post players were around, now everybody needs to shoot for real.

[@damonsonnier34]

@@Ridewithdoc Before Robert Horry, there was Kevin Willis and Bob McAdoo. They were both Power Forwards who shot a lot from beyond the paint.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

​@@damonsonnier34 also Tom Chambers

[@DEVILONBOTHSHOULDERS]

@@damonsonnier34the thing is horry is built to play the 3, whereas the two u listed are built to be 4s, the importance of the horry move is that he role swapped into a physically larger position, kinda like when bosh swapped to center

[@fred-s7e]

Robert horry has pedestrian stats and even from the three point line but his advance stats and offensive rating was so incredibly high! It’s like Reggie miller, LeBron James level of high rating and that includes the playoffs. His ability to stretch the floor as a big forward was so valueable

[@Ridewithdoc]

@ people underrate the difference in pace in the Shaq era. A lot of peoples numbers were down. League was set for 2 guys to score and the rest get scraps. Now it’s more possessions due to pace. Everybody gets a third scorer with decent averages and still others can get 10 points.

[@ger.m.a.ngiant1644]

To my understanding from watching basketball , the role of forward means versatility. For example, I expect my small forward to be able to do a bit of everything but more to the perimeter side of the court mean while my power forward is the same as a small forward but does more paint oriented things. For example, Tim Duncan for power forward, he was the best at what a power forward does and was still a great player as a center. Next example is Scottie pippen, he was good at everything but excelled in perimeter defense and shoot creation where he could play the role of point forward. Forwards are like connectors between a guard and a big and without them, you will lose.

[@benblack6375]

Really well done man. Stick to this you’re talented and a blow up is coming soon.

[@ays8975]

Thank you so much for this video. This is my favorite position but it feels like it's just becoming "small forward but taller". The best power forwards are really the only ones still carrying the position's legacy somewhat.

[@j-us-t_be-in-g]

This was a great video! Great break down of old school power forwards to modern power forwards. I don't mind today's game. I just don't like the forced offensive sets just to shoot threes. Actually run offensive sets and get the best available. If I'm a coach, I would want ALL of my players to be as skilled as possible to optimize their skillsets to make the offense more unpredictable.

[@enviedeveryday2835]

There is only one dirk

[@jonathanglennon1325]

Curious if the weight gain in 2010/2011 had anything to do with guys getting out of shape from the lockout that year

[@Justfrank_0]

Im half way through i had to stop and appreciate the work put in. Man this is good content bro, the narration and everything, i like the background music too. Keep em coming please. Can’t believe u don’t have more subs. New sub!

[@stewiegriffinfan18]

Probably because he doesnt interact with his viewers. If you have 10k or fewer subs, you should interact with your audience if you want to grow. This is the difference between KZbin and ESPN. As of this second, he has 408 views on his first video and hasn't interacted with a single comment. I don't want to subscribe to that. Obviously, if you have 100k subs, you would need to make a bot to interact with subs but I know one 30k subs guy (Magic Mitch) that responds to every single comment and I really respect that

[@Justfrank_0]

@@stewiegriffinfan18 good point bro💯

[@stewiegriffinfan18]

@@Justfrank_0 :)

[@korygrey6170]

Facts

[@Smokinglayups]

Better than so much basketball content on youtube; great job. Subscribed.

[@NailCakrabuana]

dude this is some high quality vids, you deserve more subs fr

[@matthewnuhfer6851]

Thoughtful, knowledgeable, & comprehensive content. Keep up the good work

[@therealdeal717]

A taller longer power forward can always be utilized as a center. As a 2 guard with good handles can be utilized as a point guard.

[@TrivicalMC]

Good quality video, good shit ur channel gon grow

[@justyouraveragejoe9060]

Fax this is quality

[@biba8163]

A lot of this is wrong including what JJ Reddict, Van Gundy and mike D'Antoni said as far as them being innovators of the 1-in-4-out. The Houston Rockets won their 2nd championship with 1-in-4-out with Hakeem, Horry, Mario Elie, Drexler and Kenny Smith. Horry at PF shot over 40% in the playoffs. When we first saw this as kids, we were like you the hell are you supposed to stop that? Phil Jackson then took the same formula and put Shaq, Horry, Fox, Kobe, Fisher. In the 3peat, Horry shot 39% from the 3 and was playing most of the minutes at PF in the playoffs.

[@KevoJr]

Yea there are a lot more instances well before my time where non traditional forwards were starting at PF. The list runs super deep!

[@damonsonnier34]

@@biba8163 There were the Suns with Oliver Miller, Charles Barkley, Richard Dumas, Dan Majerle, Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, and Danny Ainge. They were also a 3-point shooting team as well.

[@biba8163]

@@KevoJr I think the first of the innovators were Rick Pitino and a lot of it was in college. He had Kentucky getting 1/3 of their points from the 3 and a 6'7 power forward Jamal Mashburn shooting 5 threes per game one year and averaging 43% 3PT another year. Pitino also had NY bombing 3s with even Oakley shooting 3s one year, then Antoine Walker as PF attempting 4 3s per game in Boston. Don Nelson has had years without a center much less a PF with 6'7 guys like Higgins and Tolbert playing the 4 and 5 positions.

[@frutur3367]

man i hope you blow up this video was so well done man hats off to you you gained me as a sub

[@hpavil]

in an ever increasing sea of clickbait and ai generated slop content, we need to cherish talented up and coming creators like this. subbed and looking forward to more.

[@sponko]

Great vid bro I love that you just kept going through examples really went deep in the bag

[@darthvader9884]

Amazing content u just gained a new fan

[@BackboardBuoy.2zqwa]

This is so true. Last time we've ever seen an actual powerforward act like how they are traditionally since Giannis, Aaron Gordon, JJJ, and Zion is 2016 with KG, and Tim, and almost the entire career of Blake Griffin. Dirk plays like a guard who doesn't average many assists but instead rebounds, Kukoc plays too like a guard, Bron plays like a forward with Magic Johnson type playmaking, Tatum doesn't even act like a PF, Porzingis is just a tall shooting guard, KD has a small forward's body with shooting guard abilities, and alot more. The traditional Power forward position is dying soon. I Just hope someone can revive it soon.

[@gedgenil9246]

I did not know Zion was already in the league in 2016

[@BackboardBuoy.2zqwa]

@ Dude you're dyslexic

[@jimmyellis7951]

PFs now have to have a solid handle and playmaking skills on offense, and play both the perimeter and paint on defense. i.e. Tatum, Giannis, KD, LBJ, Draymond, JDub, Paolo, Scottie Barnes, and Pascal Siakam. There's more but you can see the archetype. Instead of 6'10'-6'11' post players, it's mostly 6'5"-6'9" speedier athletic guys. Giannis is obviously an incredible outlier and Evan Mobley is probably the closest to a 90's PF a la KG.

[@lgt2529]

scottie, j dub and tatum, kd are more like 3 in normal nba. Paolo and Siakam and giannis and even AD are the ones that would be a PF in traditional basketball world. WHile draymond is pretty special

[@elijahwashington6228]

Great video bro, keep going.

[@KidBakz]

Whats sad is this the position that made me start watching NBA in the first place. Really stacked talent at that time and now its just treated as secondary small forwards. Potential PFs are played as centers or become backup centers

[@martytu20]

Draymond can play anywhere from a 4 to a 5 to a 1 in one play sequence. Scottie Barnes is theoretically a small forward, but his skill set can fit anywhere from 1 to 3 to 4 to 5. Positional versatility now means size and skills matter more to avoid being “matchup hunted” by the offense.

[@Spider-Complexion]

I really enjoyed the video and the history you gave. I hope you can make a follow up or another kind of video to also acknowledge the 70’s where the PF position also had great players. Even some that replicate our modern stretch 4 is someone like Dave DeBusschere and he was even 6’6”, which is something we see today.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

Very true

[@nycpologod_759]

Love the bruisers

[@zephiin]

I remember a time when it was extremely difficult to find a PF that played well enough with a teams center. If they couldn’t get along, a lot of teams opted to dump one for the other. Now, if you can’t sit corner, guard the wing AND grab boards, you’re considered cooked 💀 KG was the last true PF from the old guard. Giannis is fun to see but even his handles are way to polished to be considered a true back to basket forward. The idea of a Giannis like player in the late 90s/early 2000s was a nightmare for a lot of teams back then.

[@GsaSteve]

You got my sub man, this video was excellent, I never grew up watching ball n got involved during the 2020 season, but have a certain fondness for the Traditional 2000’s 4, with Duncan, Webber, and Garnett.

[@danieltorres5238]

Honorable mentions.... Tom Chambers and Larry Johnson

[@GIMMETHELOOTNOW]

Video going viral... great work💯💯

[@icrashout]

The power forward position was so deep back then

[@555kuletus]

That’s how sports are always evolving. You either adapt or you’re goner.

[@CorbanNBA]

This is brilliant content. Thank you so much for such a well crafted video.

[@yairlegendkillerrodriguez9499]

High basketball iq in this video, I’m expecting a lot more of this young fella. New subscriber!

[@27carloyu]

4 out 1 in for me is the best blend of everthing. an elite post up scorer with elite shooters. perfect mix of past and present

[@bsq_2x70]

Love your approach to the video. The biggest shift started w/ Dirk imo. Guys start off as small forwards and the league pushing them to the 4 as they did with Carmelo. Carmelo didn’t really want to be a pf but he was forced to in the middle of his career.

[@ninjaoftherift1620]

Dirk is 7ft so he'd be a center. Rly

[@bsq_2x70]

@ KD 7ft too & he don’t wanna be nowhere near the center spot lol

[@andrebryant5081]

​@@ninjaoftherift1620 Dirk was considered soft back then didn't want to protect the paint as the last line of the defense

[@iiBandage]

Their like the TE of the NBA. Don’t get recognized as much (or paid the same as other positions) but if a team has a good PF then they are typically a decent. Underrated position in today’s league. Good video!

[@culturalcrowns]

This is elite research, bro. Keep it up. You'll beat Jimmy Highroller with this kind of presentation.

[@TribuIations]

Great breakdown

[@YodaSmokes]

Chris Bosh deserved a mention amongst the finesse 4s

[@chrisb.5351]

Yooo this video was so good. Loved how you broke everything down. Subscribed!

[@Benjibeatsmusic]

Rusty buckets made this video like a year ago, better researched and edited, imo this is kinda copycat

[@chrisb.5351]

@ You want a medal for pointing this out?

[@hawkname1234]

Draymond Green was the prototype 3&D "tweener" 4. He steps up to play the "speed 5" in death lineups that want to go fast.

[@damonsonnier34]

2:24 Shawn Kemp and Larry Johnson.

[@bobbituka123]

Dude, GREAT analysis. Original and interesting.

[@bohanxu6125]

Rusty Bucket pretty much made the same video with the same title years ago.

[@shamikgonzalez7718]

forgot to shoe some love to chris bosh for the fusion fours, he was lowkey a glimpse of what was to come

[@Skinslyfe]

Good shout

[@AboutVelvet]

Nice video, i love seeing the evolution

[@richardcollins2622]

Very insightful video. Well done.

[@calmislamly]

Solid breakdown bro

[@KickingitwitLj]

Fully watched both of the Sponsored ads for you

[@victorhwang2258]

Excellent analysis!

[@karimw.9954]

As per the NBA's Q&A page: The power forward does many of the things a center does, playing near the basket while rebounding and defending taller players. But power forwards also take longer shots than centers. I see this prototype of player every night.

[@Littlefinger-007]

This was a good stuff! Bravo!

[@ApolloAmbrosius]

I’m a simple man. I see OG in the video thumbnail, I click

[@user-nt1jf3yl3f]

GREAT VIDEO. GREAT BREAKDOWNS. PROPS..

[@bigpapapaycheck]

Hey dude, this is fabulous. Thanks

[@EdwardWindhowl]

I learned so much from this vid

[@jed.x2907]

Great video!! New fan. The power forward in the Women's game is on the rise.

[@g-money9009]

This is some good content brother good work

[@Cutty-py2lk]

Nice video only thing I will state is Griffin and Melo changed to PF more so do to the decline of their athleticism.

[@tl2931]

Good breakdown man! Do centers next!

[@Pastosman]

Great video my guy, very good research

[@darrtrubb]

I’ve been wondering about this very question for quite some time now 🏀

[@Evergarden7186]

2000's was so stacked of elite and good quality PFs. Duncan, Dirk, KG, Webber, Sheed, Jermaine, Gasol, Kenyon, McDyes, Brand, Reef, Antoine Walker, Jamison

[@RayaMonetStClair]

“Moldy Buckets” sorry good vid

[@3PTBall]

Great Video man!

[@Rice-And-Gravy]

Great video man. Earned a sub. Make more videos like this please!

[@KungFuGip]

Keep working hard bro ✊🏾

[@dillonivory2344]

Zach Randolph would tear these boys up In That low post… the game changed because a dominant center was hard to come by but guards are a dime a dozen…. But with the centers playing like guards idk about it. It’s interesting sure to see Evan Mobley handle the rock is cool but I would like to see it with hand checking allowed

[@triggerbogarin9702]

5 minutes in, you earned a sub.

[@jaybryant8626]

Good breakdown

[@deezosaintloyal]

its no longr about positions. its about skillset and playstyle. it doesn’t matter what your height is. if you can rebound, defend, and playmake like josh hart, you’ll be on the floor playing the “4” spot. if you are 6 ft, can score in bunches , but playmaking isn’t your strong suit… you’ll be played at the “2” like Colin Sexton. I honestly believe that positions are hurting players more and more as time goes by. Ben Simmons is the perfect example. I’m not saying Ben doesn’t have a lot to do with his own downfall… but if teams viewed Ben as a defensive version of Jokic, and built a roster with 2 way shooters around him… he’d be one of the best “centers” in the NBA. But the league still views Simmons as a “point guard”, so they continue to rag on him for not shooting and not being able to play alongside “centers”.

[@TulaNiTonyo]

Duncan, Dirk, KG, Webber, Amare, K.Mart, Boozer, Zbo, are the best in my Era.

[@Kizamusic]

Damn no Pau

[@damonsonnier34]

How about Chris Bosh?

[@naeem025]

Get this dude a podcast!! Every video he puts out is a solid take. I appreciate the time and effort he’s putting into these videos keep it up💯

[@TetFeMal]

Thank you for reminding me basketball is a tactical game.

[@StevenJSkiba]

Jokic is a traditional PF playing at the Center position now. We're seeing a transformation at the 5 now.

[@KM-lb8zn]

no he’s a centre

[@ronmoney5236]

No he is not

[@CitroChannel]

Yeah, honestly modern basketball really has theee positions only now with some variation in playstyle by the player. Guards, Wings, Bigs. 1. Guards (true playmaking-focused PGs, combo guards, two-way threats, pure scoring threats, and some bigger guard/wing hybrids) 2. Wings (both forwards now fall under this designation -- from point forwards, to 3&D shooters, to three-level scorers as some of the most common playstyles) 3. Bigs (your center generally still -- may still primarily score close to the basket or midrange but with significantly less focus on post-ups, some have just become fully capable stretch 5s, some are more classic rim protecting defenders that may primarily work for boards and score from PnR and lobs, though now you're seeing the larger birth of the playmaking offensive hub 5 that is becoming a major part of orchestrating offenses with excellent passing, great hands and court vision while still being effective at screening for stuff like DHOs and can still stretch the floor for enough for the rest of the team while remaining a scoring threat primarily from inside the arc... guys like Jokic, Sabonis, and Sengun are good examples)

[@TheTlewis3074]

Actually I think the whole shift started at Duke with coach K. I thought it was strange that he hardly had post players but big wings like, Danny Ferry, Christian Laetner and other PFs who stayed on the perimeter and shot 3s. He ushered in the "drive and kick" game. The shift has almost chased small guards out of the game. If you're under 6'4" now you had better be special. The whole game has changed.

[@banania34]

Power forward isn’t dead lol, they’re all playing center… center and true pg are what’s dead

[@timlamiam]

I made a 2k eras franchise in last year's game where I tanked hard enough to draft KAT and Ayton within a few years of each other and built a classic 2 big lineup with them, with the old school early millenium playbook set up. It was funny seeing the AI not adjust and putting "modern power forwards" like tobias Harris on KAT or Ayton in the low post and getting bodied was hilarious.

[@siriactuallysara]

OG is the big wing I would choice in todays NBA

[@jahimuddin2306]

I miss the traditional power forwards. I always love watching big guys barrel to the basket, leaving bodies in their wake. Giannis and Zion are the only true power forwards left. Even Mobley seems to like to post up more than others.

[@JimmyCards-y4z]

Awesome content brother! New sub

[@jjdillon1207]

When Webber, Dirk, KG and Wallace were tearing it up

[@alexwilliamson338]

Great analysis,

[@dizzydrew2kvet482]

Great vid👍

[@Basketball_Records]

It takes an act of congress to try and get me to watch the NBA today. Its so damn hard to watch it for just 5 mins.

[@StefIsCold]

Paolo is my fav PF in the game currently

[@Jhay_Lim]

Garnett, Duncan and Nowitzkie started as PF but ended playing as Center most years of their career

[@ner1234]

This is true for Duncan. Im not sure about KG, but this is definitely NOT TRUE for Dirk. Whether it was Shawn Bradley, Tyson Chandler, or Deandre Jordan, he always had a true center alongside him in the lineup. One thing you can say about Dirk is that he galvanized the stretch 4 position. It put pressure on the opposing 4 or 5 by making them guard in the perimeter, limiting their team's rim protection.

[@TooDopeJohnSan]

Wow. Well done video.

[@sebsss1326]

Great video man

[@diongreen3261]

I was so wrong on Blake and i so happy about that. He was so all around, definition of working i thought he was deandre jordan and i apologize

[@martinsantos814]

Man wayback 2000's my country we don't have a lot big tall players. So our club teams will recruit foreign players mostly black American basketball players. They had roles like this they play either 4 or 5 with heights of 6'5 - 6'9. Though there where still post up and rebounding bigs and the occasional stretch shooter that's really tall that time. But when you got a skilled foreign recruit player it's like we where on the future of basketball micro ball. You'll see some small ball big type roles play like Gerald Wallace, Iggy, draymond, thad young, Jeff green, kinda like kd/tatum, lofton, Derrick Jones junior, Pj jucker, harrell, farried, j dub, Reggie Evans, maxiel, diaw skill sets. If you're lucky also a 6'4 ish foreign recruit will kinda remind you of gp2, Caruso like , Dyson Daniels type of roles for the team. It's so weird that I see it now being modernize. But heck the worlds catching up in height and now the top league is playing like the micro ball leagues of other leagues with few tall local players back in the day. I wonder what will happen next for basketball

[@julus2722]

amazing video, enjoyed the whole pf it. what's the instrumental tho?

[@hanselfinn8946]

I remember someone said to me that basketball lineup will eventually either 1pg, 3 wings and 1 center, or 4 wings versatile player and a center

[@cskaismful]

Awesome video

[@johnphamlore8073]

Great video. My only objection is you don't emphasize how the NBA changed the rules to favor what is happening now, especially compared to the 1990s. In the 1990s, every player would do well to develop some post skills, even supposed point guards such as Mark Jackson, because the rules favored isolating someone to back into the basket posting up.