The Deckbuilding Problem: Design vs Data | Best High Evo Decks & OTA Updates [Marvel Snap Chat #30]

[@AlexanderCoccia]

Cozy's Episode! kzbin.info/www/bejne/oaDHqZmOeN1sirs Alex's Twitch channel: www.twitch.tv/alexandercoccia Alex's Twitter: twitter.com/AlexanderCoccia Cozy Snap's KZbin: kzbin.info/door/Jn355XRwzLd-klJxzkM_qw Cozy Snap's Twitch: www.twitch.tv/cozygam3r The Snap Chat is now available in AUDIO VERSIONS on most of the podcast platforms of your choice! If there's one missing, let us know! Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-snap-chat-marvel-snap-podcast/id1657904561 Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6WQZxXEe3jyeqiXBVzD9HA Google Podcast: podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8yMDkxMTQ1LnJzcw

[@MarkMeans]

Thank you, guys. Not just for the information, but the sense of community these podcasts bring. For me, that's a big part of the game and you both bring it home with informative and entertaining content. You're two of the best in the community and I wish you much and continued success.

[@PancitCanton999]

Thanks for all the content this season Alex and congrats to 30 episodes! Keep it up.

[@AlexanderCoccia]

Hey!!! I know this is super late but THANK YOU for the super thanks!! They just added a way for me to see them on mobile so I just saw this now. Thank you for your support!!!

[@briancottle3086]

No options outside Ranked is the reason why so many folks focus on playing what's in the meta and what the data says wins a lot. Trying new decks and losing cubes sets you back so much and if you want to hit a specific rank by the end of season throwing cubes away on experimentation breaks the desire to explore.

[@michaelbonet9062]

This is one major problem in the game. The reward structure favors data.

[@oswaldoms95]

I think what hurt Lizzard the most is the existence of another really overall good 2 cost that compete with him aka Jeff.

[@goodgrief5578]

Something no one mentions is the frustration of trying to make home brews and still getting whooped by more meta data driven players. I’m still going to keep making some but man those losses sting more

[@sgtnubbings6501]

Indeed, combine that with how punishing it can be on your cubes/progression when trying a new brew and it just reduces incentive to try and creates frustration. We NEED a proper casual mode that we can freely join at will in order to test, battle mode requiring interactions outside of the game just doesn't cut it.

[@mikerusche3119]

Agree 100%. I love deckbuilding and trying out new cards as I get them but it is painful to burn through cubes trying to experiment

[@michaelbonet9062]

I think one issue I have in the design v data is that the reward structure of the game favors data, not design. It’s hard to participate in the ladder and try out designed decks knowing you may plummet down the ladder. This doesn’t count for players who reach infinite, which is kind of another problem in the game. If the reward structure of the game didn’t punish you taking weird risks until you got all of the ladder rewards, then perhaps more people would not rely so heavily on data driven decks.

[@JStack]

16:21 pixel coulson looks like he’s beatboxing on the mic lmao

[@leonelrivera3082]

10:42 You nailed it Alex. I just hit infinite for the first time with a deck that literally nobody is playing. I just felt like playing one of my fav decks and built it again. "Sandman, Doom, Aero, Wave, Magneto,etc." Never got into a mirror match from 75 to 100 and caught up by surprise a great amount of opponents from Galactus to Kitty Pride Bounce to even Evolutionary.

[@BattleBeast-MarvelSnap]

On the note of pocket metas, people have to remember for like 2 days a week you have a whole shift depending on hot locations too. Looking at The Peak and even Dark Dimension. During those two decks like Negative and Hela were basically the meta for the couple of days

[@TheDelinear]

The lack of Stature Black Bolt in the meta right now is so weird. That deck was never winning by only 2 power, so taking away 1 power from each card shouldn't have had any meaningful effect, but ever since that OTA I'm not seeing the deck at all. Sure the Wave change also hit the deck, but that was a previous OTA and I didn't see the deck drop off anywhere near as much after the Wave change as I did after the Stature/Black Bolt nerf.

[@FiestaTX17]

Praise the OTAs for making my man Shadow King playable, I love him so much and absolutely nobody expects him. Thank you two for the amazing content and congratulations on 30 episodes. Much ❤

[@hunterhawk862]

Same I use him in my silver surfer deck control deck

[@PedroPedrouille-ly3bo]

​@@hunterhawk862 "your" lmao

[@An.Unsought.Thought]

@PedroPedrouille-ly3bo Yes, his. Becaude its on HIS account and HE uses it. People like you need to learn that nobody OWNS a deck. It is the most pathetic part of any strategy card game community. You hear that he uses Shadow King in his Silver Surfer deck and you assume he copy and pasted his deck even though there are 12 cards to a deck and you have no clue what changes he could have made. But even if he did copy and paste it, there are only so many card combos that you can have in a deck and often times there is one clear selection of cards that are best for a deck. People are not obligated to have unique decks. And when someone says "my deck" they are literally just saying that they have a deck that they use. The amount of elitism some of you losers have is astounding.

[@ElChiLl99]

it's so satisfying dropping shadow king on turn 6 on a lane with angela/hit monkey/kitty pryde, got him this week and I already love him too

[@PatrickBrophy]

Lockjaw has always been my favorite deck. I’ve been running Evolved Jaw most of this week. I’ve now moved away from the Janejaw version for now to jam nothing but high power.

[@dietel]

Loved the deck vs design conversation. Super helpful and well reasoned. I think one part of the discussion that didn’t come up was the stakes that the cubes provide. It can be really hard to experiment with new decks when you run the risk of hemorrhaging cubes. Very excited about a future unranked mode coming to the game that will allow more gunshy players like me to try new ideas out. Currently you don’t have that sense of freedom and relief until you reach infinite!

[@PedroPedrouille-ly3bo]

I hope it won't end up like hearthstone's casual mode where everyone is just playing meta decks there as well

[@An.Unsought.Thought]

24:00 Yeah I for one definitely prefer your personal spin. I prefer to see creativity rather than the same decks everyone shows. Sometimes its worth having that mix of content because we as players should know what to expect while in matchmaking. However I also find my playstyle matches yours a lot more than other creators so its always interesting to me when I see how you add control elements to different types of decks. I don't have Jeff but frankly I am tempted to save up and dump 6k on him. I play with Prof x so often and there are definitely games where I could use another 2 points of power. I've been getting around it by playing Yellowjacket and Mr Fantastic. Having that 0 cost 2 power card to drop first in any lane is more helpful than I would have thought. Or if you get him late, you can drop him after a Destroyer play for an extra point of power into a lane. Or you can drop him on a cosmo and its a free 2 power. A lot of games will have lanes come down to single digit differences so it does help. I may wait until Jeff drops since I do have success with Yellowjack, but he's definitely a card I'm looking forward to.

[@glitterdrakar7095]

Finally a new Snapchat! One of the best things of Mondays!

[@rayman17420]

Glad to see that SNAPchat is back to the dual videos, gotta get my fix

[@user4179]

Alex. I tweaked your invisible woman attuma deck a bit and took it to intimate 2 seasons in a row just because my opponents don’t know what I’m playing.

[@AlexanderCoccia]

YES

[@An.Unsought.Thought]

Such a great combo! I love putting my Attuma behind and Armor because I sometimes run a Destroyer. But Invisible Woman can be such a great card to hide strats. I used her in an Ongoing list and my opponents always assumed it was going to be On Reveal cards so they'd waste their Cosmo on that lane. Only for a Red Omega, Maximus and Iron Man to reveal.

[@Jamatrix666]

When I pick an archetype and play with the most "tested and proved" cards, it feels fine, but when I modify the deck to fix what I think felt awkward/subpar, it's so much more fun! There is nothing better than making an adjustment to your deck and see yourself perform better and climb the ladder more efficiently because of it.

[@PedroPedrouille-ly3bo]

Adjustment to "your" deck lmao

[@An.Unsought.Thought]

I agree entirely with you. Adjusting decks and figuring out different ways to play it is super fun.

[@jasonlovejoy7583]

Congradz on ur 30th episode ive been watching sence episode one and if i stip playing snap ill still watch ur channel

[@jakefulton2125]

Possible angel buff: when destroyed, replace it with a random 1 cost card. Or maybe even open it up to 1 or 2 cost but that might be too much I’m not an expert

[@Ilovepie985]

The deck design topic was dope, great epside like always.

[@gameinsane4718]

My method of deck building is “what’s my secret spice?” What can I contribute to this deck that makes it mine? I’ve run a Moon Girl C5 for example, making use of Polaris and Miles C2 with Wong for a double Iceman on 5 or Luke into Cerebro followed by Mystique and Hazmat, or Mystique the Wong and go for a nuke with quad Hazmat. Leader into a negative deck, Hawkeye in bounce… before the Wolverine buff I had a fun Discard/C3 hybrid using Blade/Moon Knight to hopefully hit Wolvy or ideally Swarm and then Ghost Rider to bring back whatever it actually ended up hitting like Cerebro or Blue Marvel

[@zetahoven4556]

I run pretty much pure high evo with the addition of magik and I do that thing where I skip turn 6 to get a free she hulk and I slam down she hulk abom and hulk on turn 7.

[@puzzlednugget1024]

The best marvel snap podcast out there !

[@scottgg74]

One thing that always gets lost with the data is expectations people have with it. Even a 60% win rate is not great because if you bet wrong, you will go down in rank even if you win more than you lose. I feel like people expect to win 90% of the time with something and get frustrated when they don't.

[@Lampboi-jp6dt]

I've been running a Galactus/Orka/Namor list, and it's so much fun.

[@djacobyoung9411]

I really think that deckbuilding is less utilized from casual players due to their not being a casual mode to play. The ranking system makes me feel like I need to grind for those rewards instead of trying new things with cards. If there was a casual mode and more awards for later in the battle pass, folks would be more likely to experiment with new decks.

[@CasualGamerThrai]

My take on the mentioned updated cards: Lizard: I felt absolutely no change whatsoever whenever I play it or sees it against me. Sandman: the nerf was unnecessary, as now the change to Wave made Wave a better Sandman than pre-nerf Sandman. Orka: Yea no one expects Orka, they expect the Hulk instead. Veonom: Overall a great buff, but a nerf to my Mr Negative Knull deck as he no longer cost 1 on turn 6.

[@bskick]

Loved the meta talk about Deck building, more please.

[@markmurex6559]

I want more content creators to make videos on decks that counter the meta.

[@megamuffin92]

I tried to play the Stature deck and I was horrrrrrible! But I finally unlocked Myst and Surfer and Sera turn 6 and Surfer are much more my type of deck

[@glengaines4286]

Same here man. Didn’t go for it. Weird thing is I rarely ever saw it while climbing. Yet the devs had to nerf it because it was over preforming.

[@jasonlovejoy7583]

The suprise is what wins zero data decks isnt always good but making a meta deck and swapping one or 3 cards out makes it design but it also gives suprise which is crucial in winning vs meta decks

[@MirridonOnslaught]

High and Stoned 🚬🌬 hell ye

[@szuwen007]

I always picked venom over deathlock. Even before the buff. Venom is definitely my favorite buff.

[@unityfusion6674]

Dont forget! All public data is self reported, it is very different to the actual data Second Dinner sees that is not visible to us.

[@ceepuck1511]

This. People forget or don't realize the vast majority of players don't use deck trackers and those that do are probably less than 1%.

[@blopikhamhock]

Visiting Austin Texas?? Cozy Snap Tribe Gaming confirmed.

[@An.Unsought.Thought]

Yeah I tend to ignore statistics gathered by these 3rd party websites. The problem with them in my mind is that, if it shows a deck performing really poorly, how do we know thats a deck problem rather than a pilot problem? I wholeheartedly believe there is a solid way to run every single card, its just up to us to figure out what those decks are. I agree more people should be home brewing decks or at least tweaking decks they have come across. Sometimes the old copy and paste is just easier though. I myself have a mixture of copy and pasted decks but also decks I have made myself that are based on ideas I have seen. I'm not pompous or elitist to believe that people have ownership over the decks they have built (like some people). We are all building within the framework Second Dinner gives us. It would be entirely unique to put Modok in a Death Wave deck... but it probably wouldnt be good. Some combinations of cards are pretty set in stone based entirely on their abilities. And so a lot of decks are going to have a myriad of similar decks out there. Which is why I think the variety we are looking for is just going to come with time. The more new cards added to the game, the more new ways to build decks there will be and even old archetypes or deck ideas resurfacing in the future when the meta becomes more forgiving for it.

[@GabrielGonzales-wp9fs]

I really always feel like I’m hypocritical when it comes to my views on deck building which I guess is most people in card games, which is “we hate the lack of creativity but will net deck anyway…” - I feel like people want to stay competitive but will complain about the meta because everyone is playing the “same” deck. That being said, parody matters with regard to a meta. I will always respect those who are willing to “break the meta”. That being said, I always believe that if you value staying competitive (as of the game today, i.e. getting to infinite), you “have” to play the best decks. Especially with a “Best of 1” style game, you have to prepare for everything, and, usually, the best decks do it the easiest.

[@Mact0x]

Orka got me to infinite this season. Current stats on my deck are 30 wins out of 41 games (73% win rate).

[@ChicoRamirez5023]

So by your own estimation high Evo is top 10 card I am worried that Luke is permanent tech card because it always needs to be there if high Evo makes existing decks better than you will not see old versions it a dangerous place when Evo packages work everywhere it will warp the meta just a friendly counter point

[@UndeadEggmiester]

I'm a player that doesn't look at data and in a lot of times I'd rather not know because it kills a part of the game. Speaking of nerfs I'm still amazed that Iron lad is a 4/6. Because I was certain they would Nero him before the end of the season because his power is what makes him so good.

[@hunterhawk862]

Hes basically a better stated jubilee just a different visual affect

[@sgtnubbings6501]

​@@hunterhawk862 Not just better stats, Jubilee takes up an extra space on your board with what is basically a 1 power dud card.

[@jasonlovejoy7583]

I wonder how to counter discard decks

[@An.Unsought.Thought]

Cosmo. Pretty much just that... you could also use some lockdown tactics. If they can't play their Hela or Apocalypse or even Modok, it gets really hard for them. So Goose is great for that. Then you just need to shut down lanes with Storm or Prof X. Discard can be difficult to combat without more of a lockdown style control.

[@antcas3250]

Bought high evo unlocked thanos on collection 🎉🎉

[@FallsThrough113]

People complaining about the nerfs to the Stature deck are right. They nerfed rockslide and enchantress, and then stature and BB. The deck was fair and accessible to many players. But decks like Thanos,Shuri,and Galactus run rampant for multiple seasons. It feels like total fucking greed.

[@ceepuck1511]

it is total greed. with the OTA patches they could have done soo much more than they did but they didn't cause whales would have complained that something they spent money on got nerfed (even if that nerf was reverted a week later). People complain about stale meta's but as soon as something is nerfed they complain about the nerf. with the OTA stuff they could have gone "hey for the next week darkhawk and galactus both have -20 power, just so we can see what the meta looks like without them" but they won't cause people who spent money on those cards would raise hell screaming about it. plus the trend of the "big bad" cards all breaking fundamental game rules to entice players to spend money on them is very worrying, especially as more big bads come out and more and more and being able to go into the same deck. imagine what decks could look like in the future where 6 or more cards in the deck are big bads that cost 6k tokens each. you really think the game will be f2p friendly then when you have people who haven't even completed series 3 get into the game and that's the decks they are facing?

[@FallsThrough113]

@@ceepuck1511 absolutely, they realized they really pushed the limits of paying players patience with nerfing Surfer and Zabu ( 2 new season pass cards) they want ppl to still spend. If they actually make things fair and address problematic cards in series 4 & 5 then ppl will hold off. They honestly should have made those cards unplayable by removing or like you suggested making them minus power. Weird how Shuri got tuned up just before her nerf( while being featured in the shop often) it’s bullshit. An easy fix for galactus would be he removes cards, there by taking away benefits to Death and Knull.

[@blastarrow6562]

Good job guys

[@emufarm29]

Black bolt stature deck still slaps bros

[@robertsmithington8892]

I mentioned lockjaw the day that High Evo was data mined. Reduced cost/big power. It seemed logical. High Evo is too powerful. Until it gets nerfed, better and better decks will emerge that will require every deck to keep Luke cage or at least run Rogue/Skrull. The value of super skrull is going to be insane. Win rate data of him will explode. High evo is dictating the meta and will continue to do so until the nerf. The more competitive a game becomes, the more data driven it will become. It happens to all of the top competitive games. If you want to reduce this effect, don’t have so many “swing” cards. You revolve your gameplay around the win condition, then you place all high win rate cards with a curve…winning. For instance, Lizard’s win rate dropped significantly. He was removed and the data shows that was a good choice.

[@Devillocks13]

In honor of Alex, I propose that the C or D tier for rating cards be renamed the “Kinda Poo-Poo” tier.

[@archeyb1401]

Thank you Alex for ruining my gaming life with that Vampire Survivor, that you mentioned in one of your previous videos... :D

[@AlexanderCoccia]

LOL

[@rodgerlang884]

I tried homebrewing a deck once....lost the first 13 games I played with it and deleted the deck. I'm a terrible deck builder. Actually this season I'm a terrible player. After being infinite for 2 seasons, I've managed to drop from 87 to 62 in just over a week

[@joseph2000117]

Thank you guys for thanking about netdecking. It is a silent killer (of enjoyment) in this community

[@JStack]

It’s a big issue with online card games in general. Even during the most toxic MTG standard environments, FNM would have some casual decks to at least give a fresh matchup or compete with local meta specifically. Now it’s just copy paste tier 0 or 1 deck and run with it. Snap wanted people to have unique collections to lead to unique decks, but that’s only true for CL 500 and under, which at this point has to be a major minority for daily users. Instead it’s so hard to build your collection with intent, you run a strong deck you can build, and couldn’t change even if you wanted unless you were fine with not being competitive.

[@londonrhodes2429]

Talking about netdecking is a waste of time. We should all accept the fact that netdecking will always be popular in these games.

[@TusharRoy01]

Commenting for the algorithm ✊🏾

[@thomaswayne1852]

Was just thinking. New players in pool 1-2 crafting High Evolutionary as their first big bad must be having a blast, huh? If they exist, that is ^^"

[@sgtnubbings6501]

Can't access High Evolutionary until at least entering pool 3 I believe? Token shop isn't accessible until you've completed 1+2, then it's saving the 6k tokens (well 3k, 3k tokens are obtained upon entering pool 3) and waiting for him to show up. You're still absolutely right though, getting him super early into your CL would be insanely powerful against similar CL players who very likely don't have particularly synergistic decks at that point, and having Luke Cage especially is very unlikely to counter him.

[@thomaswayne1852]

@@sgtnubbings6501 Glad you agree, friend. Now, if only 2D agrees and takes advantage of it ;)

[@dangottsacker2061]

Darkhawk should be removed from the game.

[@vidalburgos9455]

Kinda poopoo 😂

[@jakefulton2125]

You guys have the best marvel snap content out there…. Jeff wHoog?