The Deepest Meditative Attainment in Early Buddhism?

We'll look at what may be the deepest meditative attainment in early Buddhism besides nirvana itself. This is known as the state of the cessation of perception and feeling. We'll consider what the state is, how it is supposed to be achieved, and some of its claimed effects. We'll also consider some later texts that discuss who can attain it and for how long.
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✅ Books mentioned:
NRM Ehara, Soma Thera, Kheminda Thera (trans.), The Path of Freedom (Vimuttimagga) archive.org/details/ArahantUp...
Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli (trans.), Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification - amzn.to/31Ecd7s
✅ Video mentioned:
The "Formless Attainments" of Early Buddhist Meditation -- • The "Formless Attainme...
✅ Suttas mentioned:
suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn50/en/sujato
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[@DougsDharma]

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[@martanirodziewicz]

Wonderful calm. Freedom from suffering for 24-48h after coming out of absorption. Indescribable stillness that doesn't go away no matter what I do.

[@itriedtotellyou9740]

In a Vipassana retreat, I feel that I entered this formless state; floating in a space of emptiness, sounds became noise without interpretive meaning. I asked the meditation facilitator and he said that is not the purpose of Vipassana. I now realize that this attainment was precisely where I wanted/needed to go. Thanks

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I'm not sure which state that would be, but indeed the purpose of Vipassana is to see through all these constructed states as essentially impermanent and hence not true refuges.

[@johnhaller7017]

The purpose of vipassana meditation, as I understand is to bring about nana, transformative wisdom, thus the release from all suffering. and this is practiced in the context of The Noble Eightfold path rather than an end in itself. I am glad to hear that you followed your own advice. There are times when others are not capable of estimating what is appropriate for you. Be a refuge unto yourself.

[@Aldarinn]

I touched this state only once in my life. It was haunting and relaxing at the same time

[@AngelRPuente]

This a great series on the effects of concentration. Going back to the original source's of these concepts is eye opening. In this age of "internet arahants" and claims of achievement, getting information " straight from the horses mouth" is very valuable. Thank you very much.

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Angel. Yes, that's kind of my intention ... to go back to the early texts (such as we have them), and see what they say.

[@moonmissy]

I think there is a misunderstanding of this meditation and many see that as attainment that denotes freedom from sufferings. Venerable Punaji explained it really well that Nirodha-Samapatti isn't a "state" perse but a realization that leads to a final awakening. I know a monk whose teacher can enter this absorption for 7 days without moving, yet he comes out and still can get angry at his students and throws teacups at them. So it doesn't seem to eliminate the three poisons using it alone. It must be used along with Vipassana. I experienced this absorption a few times, it is very hard to describe. Coming out of it there is an incredible amount of clarity, unlike anything the average meditator experience. Your average 8 hours sleep only has about an hour of deep sleep where it is extremely restful. One can remain in this state for several hours or days to get that effect you receive one hour a night. I don't know about the stopping of breaths, I think that's exaggerated in the description of the earlier texts because mendicant monks do not have modern medical devices to detect really shallow breathing. They just assume the person is not. People don't really take into consideration that what is recorded in earlier Buddhist texts were observations made by people at that time with their understanding and observations which may be coloured by Hinduism myths and legends in their society. Over time passing down, it might have become more and more of a legend and the description become more extreme and superhuman as fewer people attain it due to fewer people practicing meditation intense enough until that point. I do not see the usefulness of this absorption in eliminating the three poisons other than to review it after coming out in conjunction with the twelve dependent origination and resting in it once in a while like getting a really good night's sleep. In Vietnam, meditators mistake absorption meditation for the goal of Buddhist practice, but it needs to be practiced in conjunction with Vipassana outside of sitting meditation at all times.

[@DougsDharma]

Right, none of these states on their own are enlightening. One needs to see them with insight into their impermanent and volitionally produced nature in order to reach the final goal.

[@mayurtirpude9367]

Very well expressed your point of view

[@wladddkn1517]

I had some insights into the psychological purpose of Buddhist bhavana practice and now, thanks to your learned lecture, I have got the formula of it. It is "full control of all states of mind, conscious as well as unconscious - this is the fruit of the noble". Thank you for this.

[@DougsDharma]

That's an interesting way to look at it, Wlad.

[@7cTube]

yeeey, new episode!

[@DougsDharma]

Yes indeed!

[@RomanDianaOZ]

There is a meditation virtuoso named Delson Armstrong who can enter nirodha at will and being studied by a uni lab in Amsterdam. He spoke about it in detail in one of his interviews with Guru Viking on KZbin. The most amazing thing about his ability in my view is that he can time it to the minute. He can enter niroda at will and come out at a desired point in time without having any cues or whatsoever.

[@DougsDharma]

Hmmmm ... yes it would be good to have that investigated.

[@saralamuni]

May you attain this deepest meditative absorption in this very life!

[@DougsDharma]

That would be pretty amazing ...!

[@Nooneself]

This is "dropping of mind and body" as stated by Dogen"s teacher. You can achieve this state by doing a highly concentrated meditation when your going to sleep. Takes several attempts before you can do it. You may also experience lucid dreams. Best WISHES

[@DougsDharma]

I would imagine that's a slightly different state if it involves dreaming. But what do I know? 😄

[@martanirodziewicz]

@@DougsDharma it is possible to experience lucid dreaming after perceptionless state ends

[@maxmatthews2463]

Kinda sounds like peace without addiction. Cool video 😎

[@DougsDharma]

It's a weird state for sure, Max!

[@user-bv9sc7bj1e]

Let me preface this by saying my lineage is Nyingma. The sense of clarity they are talking about is clear wisdom or “clear light” in Vajrayana. You see this depicted in artistic interpretation, where deities symbolize the union of wisdom and emptiness. The ground of being in tantric Buddhism is understood as the Buddha nature. One gains incredible insight during these states. Look at your own experience. Whenever you have moments of clarity, it is always accompanied by stillness. When you have an insight, it is immediate, not the result of reasoning.

[@philmcdonald6088]

rest in present awareness.

[@DougsDharma]

Good advice!

[@johnhaller7017]

Thanks Doug for another fine addition to this series on the formless meditative attainments. Not being either an Anagami(Non returner) or an Ararhat(fully enlightened being) clearly disqualifies me from saying anything of real authority about Nirodha-Samapatti(attainment of extinction), but that's not going to stop me from surmising. My guess is that this attainment is so completely empty of any potentially captivating phenomenon, that upon withdrawal from this state, the practitioner will be faced with the sign less nature of all phenomena and the implications of that. Dukkha completely vanishes down the proverbial plug hole and Liberation must follow. For the rest of us wrestling with our monkey minds, if we remember to at least make the determination before we meditate or chant, to dedicate our practice to the overcoming of dukkha for ourselves and others, then our intention must eventually be realized.

[@DougsDharma]

You may be right, John. I'm with you though: I can't say anything with real authority on such states except what I read in the early (or early-ish) texts about them.

[@johnhaller7017]

@@DougsDharma Seems as if I am not the only one that sleeps with a copy of Buddhagosa's Vissuddhimagga within easy reach!

[@namdzoannhat]

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected." - MN 44 "Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one's first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness." - Thanissaro So it seems there is a signless state upon returning from Cessation of Perceptions and Feelings. lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/animitta/index.html

[@secondcomingofnagarjuna3028]

Arhats fall into Nirodha-Samāpatti State after Enlightenment

[@DougsDharma]

Where do you find that?

[@itriedtotellyou9740]

having attained the Cessation of Feeling a Perception from my perspective, the Five Sense Doors are clean of all psycho-sensual interpretations. Words become puffs and grunts. The eye door is clear of all perceptions and interpretations and there is nothing but infinite space and time does not exist. However, as the proverb states, "before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

[@MichaelMarko]

I’m really interested in this discussion of early Buddhism. And these individual lectures in the Jhanas, etc. I enjoy very much. I especially like that there are ambiguities and opacities which are something you would expect but nevertheless go unexpected because it’s natural to think of these things as perfected.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I think some of the problem is that the descriptions aren't as complete as we might like, so they allow for multiple interpretations.

[@MichaelMarko]

@@DougsDharma Do you think it's just a matter of the idea of precision. Maybe the writer thought "well that's obvious". Or, do you think it was meant to be vague to the uninitiated? I guess I should be asking if you have any idea of the prevailing conditions when a text was produced or even what the history was. It might be a loose copy of an oral tradition or a flawed copy of a copy, etc. But, as with anything, you can't have the experience by reading about it. You have to do things. Then maybe as you become familiar the descriptions in a text can be better understood and used as a guide.

[@neil6477]

Thanks Doug - greatly enjoyed the video, although it sure does raise a few questions! One thing that increasingly interests me is the relationship between the states you are talking about and our growing knowledge of how the brain works and processes information. I know there are many people interested in this area but there does seem to be more than a coincidental tie in between these high meditative states and the way we see the functional brain. Hence, to put it crudely, is meditation the act of training ourselves to be able to shut down certain areas within our own brain? As these areas shut down 'we' begin to experience our sensory input in increasingly different and subtle ways until we no longer experience the input at all. Then we experience . . . . mmmmmm (?). Of course even if this is the meditational mechanism, there are many more questions raised - not least being the 'purpose' of the brain, what 'we' are and what is our realtionship to the so called 'reality' that we experience. I guess there is only one way to find out - but I have a feeling that if 'I' did 'I' would already know the answers! Thanks again Doug.

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome, Neil. I think some of this is being studied nowadays already, though finding people who are objectively skilled in attaining these states isn't going to be easy I imagine.

[@stevenwilliams5531]

Doug. Jason from Jason Quinn Zen might reach out to you for an interview. Would love to see you two talk, I think that would be awesome. Love your videos

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks Steven!

[@xiaomaozen]

Hi Steven! 🤘 Good to see you... 😁

[@altclut]

Ordinary consciousness is the deepest. There is nothing else!

[@fantasiajookiba26]

Hi Doug! I would like to know whether the saññāvedayitanirodha is a cognitive state or not. In the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa defines it as “the non-occurrence of consciousness (citta) and its concomitants (cetasikas) owing to their progressive cessation” (translation by Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli), so we could conclude that in this meditative attainment there isn’t the possibility of know something. Indeed, Buddhaghosa defines the nirodha also as acittaka, “unconscious”. But in some suttas that mention the nirodha there is the following formula: “having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end” (translation by Bhikkhu Sujato). So, we could conclude that not only the cognitive faculties still exist in the nirodha, but also that they are so refined to conduce to the paññā, the soteriologically decisive factor.

[@DougsDharma]

My understanding is that the state is entirely non-cognitive. Any insight wisdom must come from having exited the state and looked back on the experience.

[@jkmott59]

Check out videos by Delson Armstrong, based on the TWIM teachings of Bhante Vimalaramsi. He talks a lot about cessation as a practitioner. Each of the 4 stages of awakening and their fruitions is accompanied by a cessation event. What is said is that a 3rd / 4th stage person can go into cessation voluntarily, and make an intention to stay for a specific duration for up to 7 days. Before then it just happens. It is during cessation that contact is made with the nibbana element, which triggers the shift to different stages. Interestingly, when an intent is made by a 3rd/4th stage person to go into cessation it doesn't automatically advance a person to the next stage, otherwise every 3rd stage would immediately advance. There is something special about the cessations which advance someone to the next stage.

[@DougsDharma]

Interesting, thanks John.

[@osanda2313]

Lee Brasington mentions about this absorption by a Thai monk and some sages at Kumbha Mela. You can find it among his podcasts on Google Podcast.

[@DougsDharma]

Interesting, thanks Osanda.

[@osanda2313]

@@DougsDharma Anytime, Mr. Dough. First of all, I must thank you for bringing me closer to my own religion or philosophy. Though I was born into it, I had no idea, whatsoever. Here it is customs that people love to follow not the teachings of the Buddha. You brought me closer to the early Buddhism that is what I love the most.

[@jonathanborella769]

I wonder if there is another way to interpret it. The cessation of perception (sanna) might not entail the shutting down if the sense faculties. Sanna refers to the cognizing of discrete objects in the sensory field. It is how the raw data from the senses gets modeled in the mind. Perhaps the suttas strange claim that the senses are clear in this attainment means that the senses are still active but without the labeling or cognizing of objects, as in the Buddha’s instructions to Bahiya, “in the seen there will be only the seen.” Of course we can’t imagine or speak about what this state would be like since we can only imagine and speak in terms of sanna. As for the story of the ancient Buddha, I believe that to be apocryphal, much like the Jataka tales. It might have found its way into the canon later on, perhaps connected to the beginnings of the bodhisattva movement.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes it's hard to say for sure!

[@chilldragon4752]

Hey Doug, I need some advice. I've been meditating daily for almost a year and a half along with studying the different traditions of buddhism. A few months ago I joined a Zen group. While I enjoy the community and the teacher, she has insinuated that studying (Zen and Buddhism) and reading (about Zen and Buddhism) is not important and that I shouldn't do that too much. I know that meditation and mindfulness is very important, however I also believe it is important to study other practices as well. For example I enjoy studying Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism and find their practices useful. Do you think it's okay to combine Zen and Theravada practice together? The only thing I dislike about Zen is the lack of encouragement for Buddhist study. Thank you Doug, and sorry for rambling. 🙏

[@DougsDharma]

Sure! Zen is like that: somewhat antagonistic towards conceptualization and reasoning. It's one of the reasons I moved towards contemporary Theravāda practice, and eventually the practices of early Buddhism, which are much less antagonistic in that way. As to whether you can combine these practices, that's up to you! If you find they work together harmoniously in your practice, then great. If they become confusing then it may be better to focus on one or the other, at least for a time.

[@chilldragon4752]

@@DougsDharma Thank you Doug.

[@tomtillman]

Doug, could you please comment on the difference or connection between Pranayama and and the 16 step Buddhist breath practices? thanks.

[@DougsDharma]

I'm not enough of an expert on Pranayama to do this, but in general I think of Pranayama as more "breath control", while the Buddhist mindfulness of breathing doesn't involve control of the breath at all, it's instead an awareness of the breath.

[@marls5459]

Given the “clear faculties” line, I seriously wonder whether this just literally means that only the feeling and perception skandhas go dormant but sensory experience remains as well as consciousness

[@DougsDharma]

“Perception” in this case means sense experience, so I don’t think it remains in this attainment, and nor does consciousness since there is nothing to be conscious of.

[@oldstudent2587]

Is the right term for this samjnavedayita-nirodha (sanna-vedayitanirodha)? I have a possible explanation (quite later, 8th c. Vajrayana) for why the "senses are clear". It doesn't mean they clearly perceive, it means that the indriya have been cleared of {delusion, anger, lust} by separation from "duality" (in this text, "grahyagrahaka" - grasping-grasper), and would seem to be a prerequisite. The reason seems to be that even the most subtle imperceptible (anavabuddh) attachment will drag you back out of it (in this text, cause you to wash down into the voracious wheel of samsara).

[@DougsDharma]

That is certainly a possible interpretation, however it's somewhat unlikely to have been understood that way in the early tradition; that is, as regards non-dualism. As regards delusion, anger, lust, and a notion of a permanent self, it would be appropriate. Non-dualism in early Buddhism see: kzbin.info/www/bejne/amTZZ5-CrMqoock

[@MrHansolaffen]

I have personally experienced nirodha on several occations during meditation retreats and even a few times during longer meditations at home. There's nothing special about it other than knowing that your consciousness was totally gone when you come back - usually when that happens in meditation it is because you fell asleep and you start falling and wake up mid-fall and stop the fall and jolt back into consciousness. The difference with nirodha is that there's no falling and no dream or anything previous to waking up from it, so you simply "know" that there must've been some period of time without any perceptions or feelings. I find it extremely unlikely that you have to be an Anagami or Arahant to experience this state. All it takes is extremely strong concentration/calmness and this usually only happens in retreat situations.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I can't say for sure, but that does make sense!

[@fantasiajookiba26]

In the Poṭṭhapāda-sutta there is the compound abhisaññānirodha: could it be understood as a synonymous of saññāvedayitanirodha?

[@DougsDharma]

Great question, but I'm not sure of the answer. Bhikkhu Sujato translates abhisaññanirodha as "cessation of perception," which sounds like it could be the same state, though Piya Tan argues it should be translated "cessation of consciousness," which sounds like a potentially subtly different state.

[@1hullofaguy]

Would you ever consider making a video about negative psychological/psychiatric experiences such as dissociation caused by meditation? The research of Dr. Willoughby Britton comes to mind…. Thanks!

[@DougsDharma]

I might ... but it's not something I know much about.

[@MrHansolaffen]

Said another way: How can it be dangerous to sit down, close your eyes and focus on breathing and being mindful? Really, how can that in itself be dangerous? It simply doesn't make any sense! Of course it's not dangerous! But if you have other underlying issues, it potentially could trigger something - but ANYTHING could trigger deep psychological issues. Anyways, that's my take. Peace out! 😊🙃

[@MrHansolaffen]

(I think my previous post was delete/got lost, so I'll recap quickly): The negative experiences that Dr. Willoughby talks about occurs to about 5% of meditators. Interestingly, this is the exact same percentage reported from people going into psychotherapy. I think this piece of the puzzle is underplayed and undercommunicated in her presentation and most media and news outlets which reported on her findings omitted this alltoghether (at least in my country, this is what happened when this broke national news). So seeing that people have the same difficulties and at the same rates during both meditation and phychotherapy I think there must be an underlying cause and that psychotherapy/meditation is just a correlation and actually without significance.

[@charlesdacosta2446]

Dough, if you ever get a chance, look into meditation before the Buddha. An then come back to this medication and the 4 janas. That would make a good talk.

[@DougsDharma]

There's not much known about pre-Buddhist meditation, so far as I can tell. Alex Wynne gets into a little of it in his book on the origins of Buddhist meditation.

[@charlesdacosta2446]

Ok. I have "herd" of meditation practices that could have been the forerunner to the Buddhist janas. The were yoga (shivism). I was told about one working towards not breathing the normal way. He said through the skin. He also talk about a test being getting buried .. I am assuming that with your resource base you would get at the facts before me. I guess i better keep searching.

[@DougsDharma]

I believe Shaivism postdates the Buddha. Yoga developed out of a melding of Brahminic and Buddhist practices over many centuries. See for example James Mallinson's book Roots of Yoga.

[@charlesdacosta2446]

@@DougsDharma shivism as a religion yes, but shiavism as the yogi way - no. I try to find some sources. It is mentioned in the early vedias. Even Jain practice yoga (what we call mediation) before the Buddhist erra.

[@kayakjim007]

There is a state without bodily sense or (self) consciousness. All that remains is non-reflective direct knowing. The best description is - before time and space. I suppose the title Great Void might be applicable except the notion of dimension does not apply. It could also be called the Great Shutdown but that is not as catchy. In my experience this Great Void is also pregnant with potential creative energy. Personally, I am not overly impressed with this state. In my judgement, full attainment of the Bodhi mind far surpasses the value of just a state of mind.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, well the Buddha says that enlightenment is incomparably greater than these other states of deep samādhi.

[@darklordohmight9734]

Doug, have you entered these states? At least the first Jhana.

[@DougsDharma]

I've had some experience with such states, but there are so many debates over "what counts" that I wouldn't want to claim too much.

[@fantasiajookiba26]

Hi Doug, great video! I've some questions: 1) in some suttas (Nivāpa-sutta, Ariyapariyesanā-sutta, Cūḷasāropama-sutta, Cūḷagosinga-sutta, Anupada-sutta, Sappurisa-sutta) there is a recurrent formula that affirms the destruction of āsavas by seeing with wisdom (paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti) and in concomitance with the attainment of cessation. Now, the question is: how can paññā arise in a state, like the nirodha, that has been defined by Paul Griffiths as a "mindless trance"? 2) In the Nimokkha-sutta there is the compound saññāviññāṇasaṅkhaya: could it be understood as a synonymous of saññāvedayitanirodha (it too devoid of perceptions and consciousness)? 3) Upatissa and Buddhaghosa state that nirodha can be achieved only by arahants and anāgāmīs which mastered the jhānas, but this seems to me an interpretation that insn't contained in the Nikāyas. Or are there suttas that clearly affirm that nirodha is accessible only by arahants and anāgāmīs? 4) Why, according to you, nowadays nirodha doesn't find place in the practice proposed by lay masters and monks, despite its soteriological relevance in certain suttas, where it's strictly related to wisdom?

[@DougsDharma]

Good questions, Fantasia, not ones I can answer in detail here. In general though it's traditionally understood that the wisdom that arises from such states arises after one exits the state and reflects back upon it. Either that, or the wisdom that is gained is gained in some subtle way which is unavailable to our traditional methods of understanding. The Nimokkha Sutta's claim mirrors that in the Kevaḍḍha Sutta; it's an obscure claim that might relate to this kind of cessation attainment, but it also for example might relate to the attainment of nibbāna itself. As for who can attain these states, I believe that explanation is commentarial. It's not found in the suttas, which really don't say very much about this state. As to your fourth question, I've heard some few practitioners claim that these states are part of their practice. Whether or not that is accurate I don't know. I personally am a little unsure about the attainment of this kind of cessation.

[@chadkline4268]

paññā (Pāli: पञ्ञा), is a Buddhist term often translated as "wisdom", "intelligence", or "understanding". It is described in Buddhist texts as the understanding of the true nature of phenomena. In the context of Buddhist meditation, it is the ability to understand the three characteristics of all things: anicca ("impermanence"), dukkha ("dissatisfaction" or "suffering"), and anattā ("non-self"). Mahāyāna texts describe it as the understanding of śūnyatā ("emptiness").

[@chadkline4268]

1) it is not a mindless trance. Trance would imply something that gets into a trance. It is death, a complete disconnect from mind+body consciousness. Which means the entire universe and all of spacetime. I really dislike a lot of what I read and hear surrounding these things. It's like exploding a vacuum cleaner bag in the faces of people enjoying a clear summer day on a fresh clean green lawn next to a beautiful clear pond while eating and drinking. It just destroys everything. Cessation is this: pure awareness .. of emptiness. It is what you are when every element, in the chemistry sense, of your being has been obliterated. A severing of mind+body consciousness. Think of what you are in a dream. A presence, right? No length, width, height, or mass, right? You are there. 'am here'. Your body is paralyzed in bed. You have no perception of it. Same with sensory consciousness, except you are now connected to the dream faculty consciousness. Please see my comment in the main section so I don't have to repeat it all. Just order according to newest, and look for the red dot. This is simple to answer for me. If you have any questions, ask, and I will do my best to answer. Everything you said is correct, in that state, what you are is directly seen and known because when the whole universe has been obliterated, the only thing left is you, what you really are. There is nothing more you can remove. Nothing left to disintegrates, because the spirit is zero dimensional, a singularity. It's nothing, but it is a) awareness, which reads consciousness, b) conscience, which filters, and c) a power of intent which writes consciousness to initiate movement in body, mind, or dream. Both the Theravada and Mahayana views copied above from Wikipedia are correct. Consciousness, a terribly abused word, I define as a bidirectional field of a nervous system wherein sensory input is radiated. All the bad things you mention are a result of the spirit binding to consciousness. When it is unbound, there is only emptiness. Not even time or space exists. My current view is that this attainment is stream entry, even if it is done for many days. I can't speak beyond that.

[@chadkline4268]

2) Cessation is devoid of every possible thing you can imagine, except 'am here', spirit, presence. Which is comprised of the 3 elements I previously cited.

[@chadkline4268]

3) you are probably a better sutta expert than me, but I can say that Cessation is a supra-mundane attainment, and the 1st. And it is not psychedelic, it has nothing at all to do with sleep states, it is not a trance, and it is purified of everything: mind, body, consciousness, the entire universe. And it is not a split second event. Unless otherwise convinced, I am pretty firm in it being stream entry.

[@xiaomaozen]

🧘‍♂️😊🙏

[@DougsDharma]

😀😊🙏

[@UniversalPeace33]

Hi Doug, this is an awesome upload, thank you 🙏 Do you have an email address?

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks Mimi! I try to keep discussions here for everyone, it saves time!

[@man2voidvoid2man93]

HI Doug, As far as i understand these issues + in my experience , there is no such thing as cessation of perception as this implies a complete end to perception entirely + forever. There is instead a suspension of perception or a state of nonbeing, which the vedantists i believe call pralaya . Yes one's body is still alive but the consciousness has left the system of physical manifestation entirely + so the body could be said to be in a state of hibernation or coma . If the consciousness does not return, then the body will die but the consciousness will not feel anything because it is 'elsewhere'. You are correct , the faculties are NOT clear , there is no consciousness with which to use the faculties. The MN 4325 is a distortion of the facts. The jhana of neither perception nor non perception could also be called pure tranquility . A mendicant , even in the jhana of infinite space does NOT have a thinking process , if he/she thinks at this 'time' then they are definitely not in the jhana. There are no thought processes + there is no thing to percieve, this state is emptyness itself or void if you prefer. The jhana of no-thingness is not another jhana as it is inherent already in the jhana of infinite space. Again, you are quite right, no decision process occurs, + this from the 5th jhana. It is not true that this state is only achievable by arhats etc, anyone with the right concentration , determination + faith (+ for me certain medications) can achieve this state , although i only achieved it once. Again you are correct , that one does not know when or if they will achieve this state , it cannot be willed but only accepted. There is no summoning to enter into nor to exit from this state , it happens 'naturally'. One does not decide to prolong nor shorten ones stay in this state . The personality or self has no say in these matters but it is guided by a more advanced essence. You have a very good intuition but i feel a little sad that you do not believe in reincarnation , if as yet you have not had this experience of your previous lives then of course you must question it but a little bit more faith can take you a long way to that achievement. We all live many lives . Peace + love

[@DougsDharma]

🙏

[@happinessofdhamma7933]

I know about a Monk who actually stayed 7 days in this state in sri Lanka check out spiritual health meditation youtube channel most viewed video...This meditation state is a temporary experience of the infinite Bliss of Nibbana..Nibbanam paramam sukkan.. Triple gem bless you.

[@osanda2313]

I am a Sri Lankan. Could you please tell me who that venerable thero is? Thanks

[@happinessofdhamma7933]

@@osanda2313 kzbin.info/www/bejne/m5axf5mahNR6m9U There you go osanda triple gem bless you

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for the info. 🙏

[@osanda2313]

@@happinessofdhamma7933 thank you so much. For a fact that I know that Horana area has some amazing meditation teachers.

[@RustyJoe]

Only Buddhas and non returners? Maybe before propofol. Glad I wasn’t summoned by a Buddha during my colonoscopy 😉 seriously though, interesting topic.and great basis for thought experiments

[@DougsDharma]

😄 Yes it's pretty neat, hard to know exactly what to make of it though!

[@RustyJoe]

@@DougsDharma I’m thinking of imagining how it might work if consciousness is purely biological, and if consciousness is eternal and or connected

[@daviddavis1637]

Is the pleasure in 1st jhana meditative state better than sex?

[@DougsDharma]

That's something you'd have to decide for yourself!

[@Wordartz]

Doug, wouldn’t cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness lead to the ultimate insight …. That consciousness too is impermanent, so it is not self. Consciousness is often taken by many as the ultimate frontier, the ground of all being. When it ceases, you might not get an insight immediately but once you put the pieces together it becomes difficult to believe people who say awareness is the ultimate reality. One can no longer believe there is a permanent self or even a self…. just empty processes rolling on.

[@DougsDharma]

Hard to say, since I’ve not experienced it!

[@Wordartz]

@Doug's Dharma fair enough😊🙏🏼

[@Peter-Godman]

every person enters this every night for about 1 hour.....it's called deep sleep

[@DougsDharma]

Well doctrinally the Cessation of Perception and Feeling isn't the same as deep sleep. Though more than that, I can't say.

[@Peter-Godman]

@@DougsDharma Thanks for your reply. In advaita vedanta dreamless deep sleep is considered to be the same state as that of the Jnani. _There is absolutely no difference between sleep and pure self-awareness (atma-jnana)_ , by Michael James......if you are interested

[@CosmoPhiloPharmaco]

You have to practice your whole life to know they are telling the truth. Hmm. Very convenient excuse.

[@DougsDharma]

Well, yes. To be charitable though it's possible there are states that are sufficiently subtle that really you need a lot of practice simply to understand what they are.

[@CosmoPhiloPharmaco]

I don't believe in this meditative state.

[@DougsDharma]

Understandable.