The Design in Narrative Design

In this 2015 GDC session, designer Jurie Horneman presents a framework showing how systems design and narrative design are two sides of the same coin, and why the narrative side of game is important even in games that do not ostensibly have a story.
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[@ke9n]

Really underrated and thought-provoking talk! Really helps me since I was trying to figure out a way to prototype mechanics from a narrative approach. The method he talks about here with going back and forth seeing how certain mechanics might necessitate narrative elements and how those elements compliment the core experience you're trying to deliver could show you where you may need to introduce new or fine-tune existing mechanics. Very informative.

[@noblealfred5010]

The Prince of Persia thumbnail... ..I am obligated to click this. Now let's see. This type of design something we have lost over time. I wish more games explain their worlds without breaking fiction.

[@gabrielmello6875]

The screenshot that he claims to be from Invisible War is actually from the first Deus Ex...Apart from that, really interesting ideas!

[@jhorneman]

You are right! I just found it somewhere on the internet I am quite sure.

[@maxime9211]

​@@jhornemanfunny how every comment on this thread has a 3 years separation

[@abnnr]

i like the prince of persia storytelling on a conceptual level, but it gets weird when you really think about it. like the prince is telling a story like this: "...then i heroically jumped over a deathpit but got knocked into it and died... ow wait i didnt die. Let me try to tell it again correctly."

[@Moley1Moleo]

It makes sense because when you play you also die a lot but reverse time to undo it (but you remember it). The narrator/Prince gets confused about which times he actually did die (but rewound time), and times he could have died but didn't. I mean, if *you* tried retelling your whole playthrough of PoP you'd probably make those errors, right?

[@abnnr]

i was talking about when you game-over. when you game over the prince says something along the lines of "no no no, that didn't happen" which only happens when you die. Because dying is such a finality it becomes kinda silly when a narrator goes: "i walked to the store, picked up some beans and then i died. wait. no no no that didn't happen i payed for the beans and left." i get what you're saying with the errors in the entire story though, that would have been interesting. like you would play a level, but the prince forgot a detail which he adds after the fact and the level would change as you are playing it. but scenario's like that unfortunately don't really happen in the game.

[@Moley1Moleo]

I knew you meant the "no no no, that didn't happen" moments, and I'm saying that they *do* make sense. In the game you can use the dagger to reverse time. Let's assume that when you use that power, the Prince *remembers that timeline*. Now, when you play you will die sometimes *but then also reverse time*. This doesn't trigger a 'GAME OVE'R, and the prince doesn't say "...that didn't happen...", because from the Prince's perspective it *did* happen. Now, imagine actually being the Prince, telling the story. I forget how long the game was, but lets that there were 100 instances where you *died and then reversed time*. When telling the story, you might forget when you died, *because you died 100 times*. So, you get a 'GAME OVER' when you run out of sand and die. Thus, the times when you get a 'GAME OVER' are when the Prince mistells the story and said they ran out of sand and died, but really he wasn't out of sand at all! We know the Prince never died without sand, because he is alive to tell the story. Therefore every time we (as the player) mess up and need to try again, it means the Prince mistold the story and needs to try telling the story again too.

[@abnnr]

if i understand correctly. Your point is that the game-overs never actually happen in the story because the prince couldn't have reached his goal at the end if he died. therefore the prince never died because if he died he wouldn't be able to tell it in the first place. i disagree and here is why. The game makes clear from the start that the entire game including gameplay is the story that is being told to a person (we find out at the end it's Farah). By this logic this would mean that when you as a player run out of sand and die the prince is simultaniously telling the story of how he ran out of sand and died. Which he does, but he immidiately retcons it by saying "nonono that didnt happen" and begins retelling the story again starting from your last checkpoint. The prince even acknowledges the player's/his own death when the game-over screen appears as part of the story he is telling. So my point is basically this. Imagine yourself in the same room as the prince and Farah. The prince is telling his heroic story that inexplicably contains an excessive amount of discriptions about climbing, avoiding traps and combat when the player gets to a combat part in the game that is really hard and he keeps dying there. Then logically the story the prince is telling should go something like this: "I walked towards the bridge with no sand; a large group of zombies showed up. A large one stabbed me and i died. Nonono that didn't happen let me tell that again." "I walked towards the bridge; a large group of zombies showed up. I tried to do a wallstab but accidentally climbed it and fell of and died. Nonono that didn't happen let me tell that again." "Bridge. Zombies. I got a couple down but got shanked when i tried to absorb one and died. Nonono that didn't happen let me tell that again." etc.

[@Moley1Moleo]

>Then logically the story the prince is telling should go something like this: [examples] That is nearly right, because in the canonical story, instead of "Nonono that didn't happen let me tell that again" he says "and then I used the dagger's power to reverse time". If the Prince tells the story without making any errors, he'd narrate his death like 100 times, and each time he'd explain the use of sand. So no wonder if he remembers dying 100 times, he might forget the details leading up to a death and then accidentally narrate a situation he was unable to reverse. [Spoilers for the 3rd game ahead] It probably doesn't help that he is telling you this after going through 2 more stories/games, both of which also involve a lot of time travel.

[@alekmilovanov]

This is more about the narrative serving the mechanics, but the most interesting things happen when the mechanics serve the narrative. So I wouldn't call it "Narrative Design", more like "Narrative-dependent Design", or "Narrative-connected design", or smth like that.

[@jacobjopson552]

narrative design encompasses both. Mechanics that serve the story and story the serves the mechanics. It is a two way street. I think you will find that "the mechanics serving the story" those times when you see that kind of design going on it is designed as a two way street. Most designers now of days have a pretty fluid way of coming up with ideas. Each will influence the other and often the things where we see the mechanics serving the narrative have often been bread from a mechanical stand point and then evolved into something narrative. Basically what I am trying to say is that narrative design encompasses both and either or can be just as interesting if a designer acknowledges that in a narrative game both are able to create interesting interactions.

[@alekmilovanov]

@@jacobjopson552 I think you're right, but from an academic point of view it really would be better to name it differently in professional circles.

[@jacobjopson552]

@@alekmilovanov that's a good point. Making it so it is clear which is being developed from which and how that progression is made might make is easier for game designers and narrative designers to have better language to understand each other.

[@kikijewell2967]

Excellent point. As someone from his generation, games of the 90's were only just discovering narrative design. Donkey Kong and Pac Mac aren't narrative games, and the mechanics drove the purpose of the narrative. So that mentality he grew up in shapes his perspective - but he's conscious of it, and that's key.

[@13thxenos]

Talos Principles have done an excellent job on explaining things in fiction. All the puzzles, audio logs and other things have a believable explanation.

[@beanbagben4672]

Ive tried to watch parts of this multiple times, but I'm sorry to say I just cannot comprehend what points he is making? Feel like I got nothing out of it

[@J.B.1982]

Here i am thinking narrative design is an inherent part of the writing. I don’t see how these can be separated. Even a basic platformer will have some story and world to be set in. How do you go about narrative design without a writer to create the world? Contra is basic but there’s still a world that need a coherent feel to it. How can the narrative designer not have writing and story skills? The mechanics should be intertwined with the story and narrative elements as well, if you want a nuanced and well developed game.

[@guilledcf1547]

"whatever"

[@WholeBodyBreathing]

Im a horny man

[@sniperkitty3000xx]

the entire talk is about immersion but he doesnt mention it once

[@Heruwath007]

Maybe that's the way to create it. btw he does mention it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nGm5ep-cidmspskm7s

[@stevenevenshow2790]

Kinda sound like he's either underprepared or bs'ing his way through the questions.

[@Sihion]

This talk is useless

[@TiMonsor]

as a ND and GD i have no idea what this talk was about, i get all the bits but what was the topic? what should we conclude from this? really lackluster

[@kaktotak8267]

Anything with the word "narrative" in it does not belong in videogames.

[@kaktotak8267]

Games is an interactive medium. Its main strength is interactivity, which gives the player an ability for self-expression and to create emergent stories. Any kind of narrative not only steps away from it, it hinders it.

[@itsMiees]

Interactivity and narrative could indeed be considered as opposites, but this doesn't mean there is no possibility to implement narratives and other forms of storytelling into videogames. Quoting Jenkins from this article: www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/firstperson/lazzi-fair "it makes sense to think of game designers less as storytellers than as narrative architects."

[@kaktotak8267]

@Michelle I know you can, there's plenty examples of that. My point is that you shouldn't. @Andreas Don't try to mash different things together. Rules of *interaction* =/= narrative.

[@itsMiees]

Could you explain why you think that?

[@kaktotak8267]

I've said it already. It gets in the way of interactivity, it hinders and handicaps it. Take Banner Saga for example (I don't know if you played it, but I'll use it anyway because that's what came into my head). Is it a game about a war between humans and dredge? No, it isn't. From the gameplay point of view, it's just a series of tactical battles. The war is what's happening in the narrative, player has no control over it. Would it be possible to make the war part of the gameplay? Yes, absolutely, there are plenty of strategy games out there that do this kind of thing. But the devs wanted to tell their uber important story, so player agency can go fuck itself.