The Nature of Order in Game Narrative

[@AliceAlexandra-d5t]

25:43 Meanwhile, branching narratives that reconverge every now and then both help the author (to avoid combinatorial explosion of possibility space) and the reader (to feel a strong sense of direction and resonance). Putting strong centers in branching narratives is a big win.

[@12e24]

This is definitely the best GDC talk in history.

[@troymperry]

yeah, if you're an imperialist.

[@12e24]

@@troymperry Well I don't support policies of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force. So I guess you can just be someone who appreciates well thought out design to think this is the best GDC talk.

[@troymperry]

@@12e24 Order and chaos are dependent on one another. The day would be nothing without night!

[@12e24]

@@troymperry So you would prefer chaos mixed in with order when it comes to designing things?

[@troymperry]

@@12e24 idk, I'm just a hater😂

[@CaptainJeoy]

The void would be the mystery in the narrative that keeps us playing to the end.

[@MrCirno20]

I think Hades nailed it.

[@cliftonb]

This was the first GDC I've missed in six years, and this talk was one of the reasons I've been so angry about that. Happy to see it online now.

[@muzboz]

Jesse is always da bomb. :)

[@cliftonb]

@@muzboz indeed. If his team were further west, I'd probably be begging to work with them sometime.

[@seangdovic4967]

38:23 - I think that local symmetry can be applied to narrative structure. Naturally, if a shape appears on one side of a symmetry, it should appear again on the other side. Coincidentally, the best plots are tightly written. If any plot element is introduced, it should appear again in the second or third act to tie into the story (i.e. Chekhov’s Gun).

[@keldencowan]

Local symmetry is also known as motif. It can also manifest as a literal dialogue echo (ironic echo, meaningful echo, dialogue reversal).

[@sub-jec-tiv]

Also frequently some sort of parallel is shown in both the beginning state and ending state of the game. It can be as simple as a lone of dialogue, or it could be more complex; for example, the position the character is in is similar, even though they have had a huge increase in power or status. Often the symmetry comes with attached irony.

[@sub-jec-tiv]

Also frequently some sort of parallel is shown in both the beginning state and ending state of the game. It can be as simple as a line of dialogue, or it could be more complex; for example, the position the character is in is similar, even though they have had a huge increase in power or status. Often the symmetry comes with attached irony.

[@alexanderkulaev541]

@@sub-jec-tiv The ideal example is A Short Hike. Beautiful game with a circle composition.

[@bartomiejdziao9594]

This video is a fluid knowledge. I am so grateful to have seen it, thank you!

[@CaptainJeoy]

Another way to look at negative space in narratives is the impression a player thinks has emerged from his current dialogue.

[@illustrious-jaco]

and maybe another way as well could be negative space as "what was unsaid" in a conversation / plot / etc.

[@Flipside3D]

Brothers : A Tale of Two Sons is a gaming experience I'll never forget any time soon

[@AndrewSpearin]

Schell accurately predicted the use of AI "a few years from now" - yeah, about 5 years since this talk is accurate!

[@muzboz]

I looooooooooove "A Timeless Way of Building". It makes me emotional to read it. He writes so wonderfully. :D I really like how he keeps using the term "the quality without a name". It makes you keep thinking about that thing, reaching for it, appreciating it.

[@muzboz]

YOINK! Just went straight over to my bookshelf and grabbed up my as-yet-unread copy of "The Timeless Way of Building". Really gotta read this book! Love the first few pages. Feels like a fantasy novel! So mysterious and evocative. :) "To you, mind of no mind, in whom the timeless way was born." "A building or a town will only be alive to the extent that it is governed by the timeless way. To seek the timeless way we must first know the quality without a name." Jepers! Did he co-write this with Ursula K LeGuin? What a legend. Feels like a book one would find in the libraries on the Isle of Roke. Just started some procedural terrain generation yesterday, so it seems this video popping up today is a sign of the great conjunction. :D

[@jedthefroggy]

How's your progress after 5 years :)

[@muzboz]

@@jedthefroggy Ummm.. a biiiit slow. :D I have really enjoyed reading the book, but only got about 1/5 or 1/4 of the way through. It feels kind of slow and repetitive, going over the same concepts. But it just has a lovely lyrical feeling about it. If I was a faster reader, I'd have finished it, but ... I'm not! But despite not having finished it, I feel that it's one of the top 10 books that has touched me, and that I think about the concepts and messages in the book. (Just not sure where the rest of the book is going! The stuff I've read so far feel like it couldn't been expressed in 1/3 of the amount of words, even keeping it's magical lyrical quality intact. wish I could extract it's message more quickly and easily.)

[@Lunareon]

An incredibly well presented talk which demonstrates how the video game industry (or any other industry for that matter) can benefit from earlier work of other disciplines. Thank you for the reading list.

[@mad_man_86]

Just amazing, I'm going to watch this a couple more times I reckon.

[@AndrewSpearin]

I posit in the realm of interactivity in shaping narrative: Positive space: player interaction. Negative space: game expression.

[@magpiejoneski139]

Amazing talk, thank you. I'm definitely going to rewatch this and take copious notes.

[@cmitchell6927]

Wonderful talk, literally changed how I think and work as a designer.

[@YouWinILose]

Really fascinating talk. I'd love to hear him discuss how to use these concepts for creating emergent and embedded story, not just enacted. He did touch on it, but I think it's fascinating. Maybe by crafting environments and systems with that feeling that has no name, we can get to that sweet spot where a player builds their own emergent narratives. Hence the Sims!

[@elijahshadbolt7334]

I really enjoyed this talk. It is just the sort of fascinating design patterns I love to learn about. And now I have a few more books to read. The speaker spoke eloquently and knowledgeably. I can see the impactful potential that these architecture patterns provide, and I will use them in my own projects.

[@deimos_js]

great talk. loved the part about comedy and seriousness in narrative

[@paulthompsonx]

Excellent. Fascinating talk, and I will now be going to obtain all the books mentioned in it.

[@iamisandisnt]

Om this is incredible, great talk

[@iFukuyama]

Why is this 2018 talk recorded with a 2004 camera?

[@alextchap99]

It's really about what the guy's saying here.

[@Dwapook]

Local Symmetries... If applied to characters, I would think of the unconscious and conscious character motivations, how it forms and reforms the actions they take and retake in order to achieve their goals... but then I've been listening to the Robert McKee storytelling books that tend to go into that a lot so that might just be where my mind's at.. I think I'm even practically quoting the books with that statement..

[@doubleru]

Or it could be about sub-ensembles of characters, groups that are balanced in themselves in terms of personality, but not necessarily across each other.

[@Dwapook]

@@doubleru I'm not 100% sure what you mean? but I've seen good stories told with only 2-3 characters, possibly even 1.. I still think what I originally thought rings true, but I kinda worded it badly.. x.x! This might be a better explanation... what a character wants and what a character needs can either be symmetrical or asymmetrical with each other... An character's want or need can also be symmetrical or asymmetrical with the actions that character takes.. Any of those three categories; WANT, NEED, or ACTION can be symmetrical or asymmetrical with the wants, needs, or actions between other characters in the story..

[@ChochoLevi]

best GDC speech ever given

[@AlexGorskov]

Great talk! I'm buying that book now.

[@dioricergy6931]

I joined this alexander cult after reading Pattern Language thanks to Jesse's reference from his equally brilliant book The Art of Game Design

[@Muguetsu]

15:33 paths and goals

[@aleningi96]

Wait a minute, the house at 49.00 is a tipical Trullo in Puglia (Italy), not Turky. I actually live inside one of them...

[@YTRingoster]

Someone needs to consult with Christopher Alexander about creating 3D/VR representations of his architectural patterns. The grainy B&W photographs in his book really don't illustrate his points as well as they should.

[@alpineswiftai]

This dude is brilliant.

[@monfera]

TIL some folks consider the Disneyland Cinderella castle beautiful. Great talk btw.!

[@BCardician]

So inspiring for me as a magician.

[@aesthgame5481]

RIP Christopher Alexander

[@DiodeMilliampere]

Beautiful talk

[@ruslankukharskiy6870]

just awesome! thx!

[@fejaomaravilha]

I loved it! Tks JEsse!

[@lindersi]

Gonna watch this and listen to that some more times! That is smart. Not like my english.

[@georgimarnero3280]

Great talk!

[@TheGrikunduz]

Just amazing.

[@Fopenplop]

this dude looks 30 how is this his 23rd GDC????

[@WarjoyHeir]

Started slow but this is a great talk!

[@veggiet2009]

I'm 15 minutes in and I'm still not sure why the title is the "nature of order" in game narrative. It seems a lot more like he's talking about "order of nature" or more likely "natural world design"

[@veggiet2009]

Ahh, I see now

[@FixYoSelf]

You were only 3 minutes away :)

[@kombinatsiya6000]

I appreciate what Schell is trying to do here but applying Alexander's Fifteen Properties to narration seems problematic. The Properties become so abstract, descriptive, obvious and all consuming that they don't say anything useful to game designers. For example, the property of strong centers is exemplified through PUBG's Playzone but the Playzone is the opposite of a strong center due to it's random appearance and literal shrinkage. Also, The Playzone is not a narrative device! It's an architectural element that has no impact on story. Still, some of the best potent ideas happen when curious minds cross-pollinate from one area of human knowledge to a seemingly unrelated one, and for doing that, I applaud Schell.

[@Dwapook]

The narrative of PUBG is pretty much completely player driven, so in that regard the Playzone concept is a strong narrative center that drives the player's story.. and its focus is strengthened by the random shrinking and how it affects everything.. But I don't completely disagree with what you're saying.. Still have to see how useful this talk ends up being, but I find it pretty exciting!

[@carrottoponcrak]

Welcome to narrative rules 101, a zillion things your story needs to have that are so generic it's difficult to directly apply them. You get better at implementing the abstract ideas like these over time, but more importantly you'll be be able to spot which rule is missing or not being followed.

[@carrottoponcrak]

Welcome to narrative 101, where there are a ton of rules every story will follow but are often too difficult/abstract to directly apply them. After a while you start to see which elements in your project are missing allowing you to fix the problem or enhance the project.

[@noskillzdad5504]

you had me at Ultima Online

[@kamichan127]

so good!

[@smithwilbanks8226]

“Very soon all of you will be working closely with AIs, because AIs will be such an important part of game narrative in the near future.” How prescient! This is from 2018, way before the current AI boom.

[@giddyjigga]

This aged well

[@owenlim225]

1:56

[@jiaxinli8811]

Grammatical propositions

[@multiplepov]

He worked for Disney and calls it Cinderella's castle??!!!

[@dragonsmith9462]

That's how you know he works for Disney. They have their own jargon based on the secret lore of the company. I may have already said too much.

[@melephs_cap]

Some of this stuff is interesting, but it is incredibly non-actionable. The speaker mentions a lot of arbitrary lists of "good" artistic traits that at best just generate ideas. If you use these lists as checklists for your creative projects, it's going to grate on you, and seeking perfection through formulas simply does not work. Also, like another commenter says, he doesn't really rationalize these models, or tell us how to use them. He kinda just tells us about all these patterns other people have identified and picks games that they apply to. I would have preferred to see more of his own thoughts.

[@piulada]

I like the guy, but there is some bullshit on his theory. Some things do make some sense like, "Alternating Repetition" and when "Boundaries" collide. While others are contradictory, vague, subjective, ephemeral and so ambiguous that not even the guy can explain. Worse than the ones he was unable to explain, for me, the "Graded Variation" is completely false. A narrative like this is what is called boring, the reader like surprise and impact, and not subtle change. Also, it's contradictory to the "Boundaries" and "Roughness"

[@cyberpunkdarren]

15 minutes in and zero commentary on game narrative.

[@leafMontilla]

He doesn't really back any of his claims. When he finally starts talking about applying patterns to games, he merely associates patterns with good games without going into why the game is better for implementing the patterns. Not only that, the patterns he does discuss are ideas so lofty and generic that spotting them in actual designs is almost entirely subjective, which just further renders his examples moot. This talk is deep, but it's bs.

[@Haydenthemaker1000]

Where's your talk?

[@NottanALias]

@@Haydenthemaker1000argument from authority. There are many competent people who don’t give talks. And frankly, an observation is true or false regardless of who makes it initially.

[@jeffreynickels4034]

It is a little abstract but I don't think it's BS. He's taking a framework that inspired him and applies it to game design principles, not making a prescriptive argument. I think the value is whether or not these ideas also inspire you, but I guess he isn't going out of his way to convince people that disagree with him.