The Differences Between Musicians & Audiophiles Selecting Hifi Gear!

[@pauldias234]

I'm classically trained and a long-time music teacher. Although imaging is a fun fetish, I tend to look more at tone/timbre and the systems ability to convey not only macrodynamics, but also microdynamics, meaning the subtle crescendos and diminuendos that key one in to the shapes of musical phrases.

[@zizendorf]

@@pauldias234 Thank you! Lou’s site is the place to be!

[@audibleeleganceinc]

I have had several music teachers as customers or as guest speakers. When I talk about music fundamentals, they are right there in support. To them, what is the point of "spot on image" if the performance itself is poor and systems can do that to great recordings. And the truth be told, much of the "image" arguments are unverifiable. But rhythm, pitch, and pitch consistency are critical elements to any performance. To me, rhythm is the most important element but many have been taught to listen to the unverifiables. But even with different microphones, which have different tonal characteristics, they don't screw up rhythm. Oh, there's hours of discussions on this. I do sincerely thank you for taking the time to comment and contribute to both the video and the channel. It is most welcome. (By the way, I just love when someone transcribes music to another instrument, changes the key, and yet people instantly recognize the tune from the relationship of the notes.) Please share this channel with others who might enjoy the other 230 plus videos. Please subscribe as it helps us build a better channel.

[@connorduke4619]

Insightful episode. I played music as a child and do still prioritise tonality, rhythm and emotional engagement above all else. I prefer "real" sounding than clever artefacts that enhance upper mids, airey treble, etc.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

The best one liner I have had from a musician response here was "We don't listen for the image because we are the image." I thought that was brilliant. There's another one too in the comments. While I do appreciate the "effects" which is the whole point of stereo over mono, I don't let the effects decide what is right or not. They are not verifiable. However, good musicians play in time, play the right notes together, and, express their emotions in the music either by tone or voice. If the recorded musicians sound like a wedding reception band, then I really don't care to spend good money on that for depth and image. Please tell other about this channel and our other 230 plus videos on many audio subjects. Please subscribe too!

[@mikeg2491]

I’m not a trained musician by any means but a recommendation, Abbas Audio is a small boutique Ukrainian firm who makes DACs and the owner is a former classical musician himself so he prides himself on going for an accurate timbre, particularly piano and stringed instruments. It’s the best DAC I’ve ever heard and I like it more than even my Chord DAVE. It’s not the most detailed or hits the lowest lows or highest highs but just sounds right everywhere. Funny thing too is he uses the TDA1541 chip for most of his models which is ancient but he works magic with it in the implementation combined with tubes and even century old copper wire, vintage transformers & other weird parts.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

I never look at the parts, myself. I listen to the results, the whole. A lot of people worry about the eggs, or the flour, maybe the butter. That's all well and fine but what quality of cake is actually made? So, I'll let your recommendation stand because it points to the results, not the parts and that is a really important thing to understand. Please share this channel with others as we have over 230 videos up to date. We have many more planned so please subscribe to catch the next ones!

[@zizendorf]

I love it! Finally a discussion related to Orchestral Music! Perhaps, you're touching on a reason why I might be content with my "midFi" system. I don't need more or better. Why? Because I listen to my system to hear the music. I am a serious listener. I want to hear amazing musical creations. I also want to simulate what I hear when I attend live performances. What we all listen to when we're playing our systems and recreating a performance. I read so many reviews of "audiophile" grade equipment and components. Then I get to read so many reviews about "soundstage, imagining - particularly like holographic - depth, height, etc... blah, blah, blah..." As if it's a verbal contest for adjectives?! It's nonsense. When I go to see/hear the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra at Heinz Hall. Guess what? Just like my, our rooms are a part of the sound system. There's no soundstage, imaging or, landscape. Why, when I try to replicate that sound in my listening room to the best of my ability I realize those performances aren't "stereo". In my seat in the front row of the mezzanine, there's no "imaging". Yes, and of course when various sections play a theme, or the basses are playing a counter-melody and rhythm, that is certainly perceptible and amazing as a re-creation! There's an amazing presentation of rich, warm, joined sound. It approaches my ears in a manner that can not be truly replicated. That live presentation isn't actually "monaural" either. It just is what it is, a thing of beauty - could be the clarion and powerful brass from a Bruckner symphony to recently one of the most amazing sounds! Mahler Symphony No.5 between the 4th Adagio, all stringed instruments prior to the finale of the 5th movement. There was a 5-6 second pause - a pause in the presence of 2700 in the audience - Dead Silence! The entire hall was totally silent. I never, ever expected my enjoyment of music would include getting goosebumps and hair-raising from silence. Everyone their felt it! Truly spectacular. Good luck trying to replicate that! Thanks Lou!

[@audibleeleganceinc]

If you attend many live performances, there isn't image specificity. There is a homogenous blend of music and instead of looking for things review magazines point out with all sorts of gibberish, you simply enjoy the music. One of my goosebumps was the Tuba Mirum in the Berlioz Requiem performed years ago by the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra. The Dies irae was equally spectacular. For years I sang as a 1st bass. Loved what I got to learn and share. So, I have a soft spot for choral works.

[@zizendorf]

@@audibleeleganceinc I believe I'd told you this previously, my father had been a professional opera sing (of no fame) and also being a major in piano and organ, our church organist, choir director, and high school choral instructor. Dad love the "Requiem". I sang, and wasn't bad but was 'blessed' to be a baritone - not high enough for a tenor and struggled with lower bass. But I did more enjoy playing French Horn. To this day, I'm amazed that those trumpet bells behind my head didn't blow out my ears. I'm very thankful for that.

[@mikeg2491]

@@zizendorf this is why I get annoyed by the hate for Bose. I can understand not liking some of their business practices in the past like suing reviewers, but their mission statement was always to bring big 3d-like sound to your living room like a real orchestra and people act like there is something wrong or atrocious with it like it’s a grave sin in audio being committed. They are the precursors to the modern surround sound we enjoy in films today.

[@cdgerhart]

Really didn't seem to illustrate how the selection of hifi gear differs between the two. Would the gear examples of gear choices.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Hmmm....a good point. In prior videos I talk about rhythm, pitch, and emotion and how to listen for it. It's much like street musicians. You don't need someone telling you when they are good and they are not. Equipment can screw up the music. Now some audiophiles will place the stereo image (or effect) above all else and that can be created a number of ways usually involving some form of phasing error. That inherently screws up the music. See my other videos on this. Please share this channel with others as we have over 230 videos up to date. We have many more planned so please subscribe to catch the next ones!

[@darrellross8609]

L, Thank you for the video, "How much power do speakers need". The chart and math really helped. I got SoundAtrist LS3/5A's [Gajallarhorn mono blocks and BJC 4" Canare] so I need to be careful with the volume. Best, D. from Stl.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

You are most welcome and thank you for the comment. With over 230 videos currently up, there is bound to be good tidbits for others to enjoy so please share the channel. The one thing I really did not get into and perhaps I will one day (it would be a great video) is the cultural differences in speaker designs and power needs. For example, typical American living rooms are often the size of meeting rooms in the UK, if not larger. UK rooms tend to be smaller and, I suppose, more intimate. Thus, being able to blast at higher volumes was not essential to "fill a room." This meant designs of power could concentrate on quality more than quantity and that speakers could be made more accurate albeit more fragile. I recall the issues Spendor had when first coming to the states. Even B&W when they brought over the 801s had significant issues with the tweeters resulting in the next series having the current dumping APOC circuit which rained havoc on amplifiers. Please do subscribe as we have many many more videos planned.

[@x5-acousticguitarstuff.2]

The Musicians are the Image or Stage. That's why they don't care, and only listen to the Music.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Brilliant statement. I love it! Talk about deadly accurate. Probably one of the best contributions to any of my videos to date. Please share this channel with others as we have over 230 videos up to date. We have many more planned so please subscribe to catch the next ones!

[@robertschlechter4407]

Your audio has a lot of background noise, making your speech difficult to hear.

[@zizendorf]

There are good reasons for that. I enjoy Lou's presentations so much I simply tune it out and guess what? It goes away. Human hearing is a wondrous gift!

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Most sorry about that. I am trying to get new material up from home and the sound you hear is my wife's wound-vac she has you wear after complications from a 2nd heart transplant after 4 difficult years with the first. My producer thought he could reduce it and it wasn't until I heard it myself that I need to go back to the drawing board to deal with it. Your observation is not alone and no offense taken. I'll just have to find a way to keep it quiet. Please share this channel with others as we have over 230 videos up to date. We have many more planned so please subscribe to catch the next ones!

[@TheVid54]

I listen almost exclusively to film music, particularly the golden and silver age orchestral scores, and find that I like the dry-miked recording techniques that the old studio orchestras used to record the music. I'm speaking of composers the likes of Bernard Herrmann, Alfred Newman, Franz Waxman, Elmer Bernstein, Alex North, John Barry, Jerry Goldsmith and even modernists like MIchel Legrand, Ennio Morricone and John Williams. Many of these scores have been re-recorded with modern equipment and concert-hall ambience, but i find I'm always going back to the original recordings for the most pleasing presentation for my listening sessions. Maybe it's because I learned to appreciate HiFi music on the types of horn speakers that were used when stereophonic sound became popular in theatres during the 50's and 60's with 70mm 6-track magnetic sound. I often refer to it as Westrex multichannel sound because I think 2-channel recordings always sound better with an actual center channel in the setup (surrounds are optional but never necessary).

[@audibleeleganceinc]

What is also interesting is that during that time many recording studios/record labels each had their own equalization curve. It was not until later that an industrywide standard was set. I just did a brief video on the RIAA curve, mono recordings, and 78s. The recordings may have also be done with those speakers in mind as well. Altec Lansing, JBL, and others were very active in horn designs. By the way, I had a very good customer who did a basement theater with Klipsch K-horns and I finally located a Belle Klipsch to finish the front out, much like what was done by Paul Klipsch I believe. In any event, there may well have been a hand in hand understanding of what was being recorded and how it was going to be reproduced. A symbiotic relationship, so to speak. Thank you for your contribution to the video and channel. You have given me something to ponder. Please feel free to share this site with others to enjoy our over 230 other videos. Please subscribe as it helps us grow the channel and improve it.

[@TheVid54]

@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the response. I've subscribed and will check out your former videos as I continue to follow your content going forward. I used to have 3 Klipsch Cornwalls for years, but now that I'm an apartment dweller I've been experimenting in small scale systems to suit my current space and needs. I have hundreds of CD film scores and spend more time than ever enjoying them now.

[@naturalverities]

You may already be familiar with the work of French film composer Bruno Coulais. If not, be prepared for a treat, as he is a master of texture and his recordings are of stellar quality. Luis Bacalov's film work is also very worthwhile. All on horn speakers, of course!

[@audibleeleganceinc]

@@naturalverities No, I am not familiar at all but that's what life is all about, learning. Thanks for the tip and I will pass this onto one of my staff members to research. As you may know, I am a bit preoccupied with my wife's health and her second heart transplant.

[@Romulus980]

Interesting outlook especially the different style of recordings on orchestras. My friend is an oracle when it comes to classical music and it's composition. He does not care what a good HIFi sound brings to the hearing, but he can tell the difference of interpretations of different conductors conducting the same piece of music. Just one cavaet as to the above youtube video why are we hearing the tapping of a running guinea pig in a cage...?😉

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Most sorry about that. I am trying to get new material up from home and the sound you hear is my wife's wound-vac she has you wear after complications from a 2nd heart transplant after 4 difficult years with the first. My producer thought he could reduce it and it wasn't until I heard it myself that I need to go back to the drawing board to deal with it. Your observation is not alone and no offense taken. I'll just have to find a way to keep it quiet.

[@Romulus980]

@@audibleeleganceinc I hope your wife is doing well despite the circumstances and thank you for your video.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

@@Romulus980 Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, we have been living through 11 years of heart issues now including 2 heart transplants. We are now out on the cutting edge of science paving the way for both ourselves and those who follow. The Cleveland Clinic has already done one paper on her. We would prefer there not being more but know better.

[@row4hb]

Really appreciated the discussion and glad KZbin found you for me. My only wish would have been to have some equipment examples - I am a midfi budget guy and can’t step into the world of those spending $$$$ each month swapping things in and out for perfect sound. Every room is different, each combination of equipment is different, and as you discussed source material can be crucial. But where should we be looking for gear? Thank you. BTW - I have found piano reproduction to be the hardest thing to find. When I hear a piano live (and oh is that sweet) it never sounds like what comes out of my speakers.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Hello and thank you for your comment. Interestingly enough, many praise me for not "pushing" product although a couple have taken jabs at me. So, I prefer to remain neutral to brands as much as possible. The other problem that I have is that KZbin is a world forum so I have no idea where anyone is located nor what is available to them. What is available in one place, may not exist in another or be very limited. Ourselves, I not only look at the product, I also look at the company and its history of progressive improvements along with both their customer history and service history (and reliability). So there's a lot of questions to even making a recommendation can be incomplete. If you want to contact me through our website, I will take a look.

[@row4hb]

@ thank you and I appreciate your perspective. I wasn’t thinking before writing and appreciate your not becoming a hustler for products on KZbin. Tough to find good guidance these days. Keep up the good work it and I will check out the website.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

@ Check out the other 230 plus videos and we have so many more planned. Please subscribe if possible.

[@richardelliott8352]

I used the weak link strategy , only changing one thing at a time, and investing some time and effort to create my buying triggers, to slowly and eventually build my system. buying Hi Fi is ultimately no different than buying anything else, the well informed consumer makes better choices . just don't discount satisfaction in your decision, in that way it is different than buying a water heater.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

@@richardelliott8352 While the weak link strategy can and does work, the primary approach I personally use is building from beginning to end. Source first. The reason for this approach is that the system is always improving but without exposing a weak link. I often think that our industry is overloaded with speakers because people keep shooting the messenger boy rather than looking at the message itself and who created it. Thus, a real shortage of source components and a bit better in between. If you are aware something can be amiss earlier in the chain, well good. The question becomes, then, can I afford to fix that and how soon? That's where a lot of people get caught because they have a problem but not the resources to really fix it right so they compromise which only lasts so long. Few can afford what I call the Grand Slam purchase, even myself. But you seem to be cautious and thoughtful and it likely works for you just fine. Please tell other about this channel and our other 230 plus videos on many audio subjects. Please subscribe too!

[@MarkMiller-i8q]

With classical music, opera especially, it's all about the performance. I've got an early 50s recording of Aida live from Mexico City, with Maria Callas. The sound is awful (not even good mono - and there's lots of good sounding mono around) but Callas' performance, as well as the other singers, comes through quite well. It's live, it's exciting and Callas is in her absolute prime.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Thank you for your contribution and yes, it is amazing to hear some of the talent that once was. That's the beauty of recorded music. We get to hear who we want, when we want, in the comfort of our own home and sometimes, you can never buy a ticket to hear them live. Please share this channel with others as we have over 230 videos up to date. We have many more planned so please subscribe to catch the next ones!

[@zizendorf]

@@MarkMiller-i8q I most recently watched the film, “Maria” with Angelina Jolie. It’s great! And I also ordered and received a ‘new’ CD of Maria Callas that’s just wonderful! “EMI Classics” “Puccini - Maria Callas”. Excellent!

[@alphacapo]

Good thoughts. Nobody ever really talks about this as you just did. Musicians look for different things in a performance...and might key in on different elements in a performance each time they hear a recording.. As a musician myself. I find "audiophile" a word .....that im not sure is a nice thing to be called. To me it just means obsessive, never satisfied at any price... gear junkie. Who might spend their whole lives on a wild goose chase for the perfect combination in a system and never get there...even after spending new truck money for a 2.2 system. They will find something at fault As a musician i dont really care about the name on my hifi gear. Weather my power supply is linear. Or the fact that 200 to 400 hz is 1.5 to 2 db light on my bookshelf speakers. I use bass treble mid and balance controls at my own will without batting an eye or thinking its the wrong thing to do. I dont really want to think about my gear atall when im listening to music. Basically the only time i approach my system as an audiophile would be during the initial setup and listening. After that i dont want to give the system any thought untill a problem arises. I understand the audiophile angle of hifi is important tho. I dont want to listen to my dac or my speaker connections. Theres music to listen too and its much more enjoyable to do so and relax.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

You said a lot of things that I rarely will speak in the presence of audiophiles. When I demonstrate product in my store, it is about the elements of music like rhythm, pitch, and emotion and how equipment can get in the way of the performance itself. Those elements should happen and are verifiable. All the other stuff, while it can be enjoyable too, are not verifiable. I once had an audiophile ridicule one of my systems because the image was all wrong. The recording was from Patrick O'Hearn who only composed on a MacIntosh computer. To this day I still can not find the "depth" button on the keyboard. I did a video on the difference between an audiophile and music lover. The best example I often find are car stereos and FM. If one tries to tap your foot to the music you will often find you cannot get all the musicians on the same beat. This dis-cadence is what leads to listener fatigue as your brain desperately tries to get them into sync. That's why people end up running all over the dial, playing with bass and treble only to end up on a sporting event or talk show . Try it sometime but not for long. You will go nuts. Please let others know about this channel and the other 230 plus videos. Please subscribe too!

[@johncrockford4216]

I think you have set yourself up for a follow-up video. The difference between audiophiles and musicians selling high-end gear. For example, you are a pianist. In Indianapolis, Mark Maryanovsky studied at the Moscow Conservatory, then in New York at Juliard came to Indy to join the Indianoplis Symphony. He opened Tone Studio. JOHN in Dayton. Best to your professional videopgrapher. You are imaging quite clearly in this video.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Interestingly enough, I bet he can nail a Steinway which is what I suspect was his primary piano. Very interesting to learn his background. I wonder how he handles the "Image factor" when some become fixated on that over the primary aspects of music.

[@johncrockford4216]

He probably can tell a piano as well as string instruments. Good question in regard to the Image Factor and Mark. That business names of Audible Elegance, Sounds Musical, etc. are wonderful names as they portend to offering music systems of the highest fidelity.

[@bilguana11]

What is that annoying ticking in your video?

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Most sorry about that. I am trying to get new material up from home and the sound you hear is my wife's wound-vac she has to wear after complications from a 2nd heart transplant. She had 4 difficult years with the first. My producer thought he could reduce it and it wasn't until I heard it myself that I need to go back to the drawing board to deal with it. Your observation is not alone and no offense taken. I'll just have to find a way to keep it quiet.

[@bilguana11]

@@audibleeleganceinc My best to you and your wife.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

@@bilguana11We Thank you very kindly. It has been a remarkable journey these last 11 years and now we are truly out on the edge of science. Deb and I know that what we now do is not only for our own benefit but for others who follow. The Cleveland Clinic has already published one paper about Deb's case for the world transplant community. It was one I witnessed while she was still heavily sedated. It was a brilliant work of deductive reasoning in a very urgent situation. It was impressive. So, even in making these recordings, we have learned how sensitive the microphone is to that frequency. As I do acoustical work, I have a few tricks up my sleeve to deal with it. The day any of us stop learning is the day we stop breathing. We just never know what we are going to learn next.

[@EuphoricImpact]

I do agree with this video. Technically, I am an audiophile, but I am a musician first. I do not care about many of the things audiophiles I have met care for. Yes, I want a machine that is well built and does what the manufacturer says it will do. Full stop.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Musicians are unique in many ways and most of them delightful, really. I play the piano now and then. It is one of the last Baldwins made in the United States. And yes, it's very different in tonality and action than a Steinway or a Kawai or a Yamaha. So, interestingly enough, I am very keen to listen to the pianos and pick off which one they are using. But I also listen to the talent and how they are playing it. Happy listening. Please share this channel with others as we have over 230 videos up to date. We have many more planned so please subscribe to catch the next ones!

[@johncrockford4216]

I agree about listening to the instruments like the piano to hear which brand is being played. Sonic imprint can be ascertained in a properly set up system and can be applied to other instruments as well. String instruments and guitars come to mind as well. John in Dayton.​@audibleeleganceinc

[@audibleeleganceinc]

@@johncrockford4216 I tuned one system to properly reproduce a Baldwin Piano in tonality and action which was used in the performance. Everything else fell into place.

[@johncrockford4216]

Wow, it must have felt like you were in the concert hall or recording studio. Definitely give and not Memorex.

[@johncrockford4216]

Live and not memorex. Darn auto correct.

[@sciagurrato1831]

Musicians listen for the music. Audiophiles listen for the sound. Sound does not equal music.

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Another excellent and concise point. I try to get people to listen for the music, particularly rhythm and pitch consistency which audio systems can screw up. Thank you another brilliant observation. Please share this channel with other so they too can enjoy over 230 videos. Please subscribe too.

[@richardelliott8352]

I became audiophile adjacent only because I wanted the instruments to sound more realistic. I know playing a recording can never be more than an illusion of a past event , so audiophiles with battleship systems don't impress me. I am glad they find happiness in that world , but it is really about how far one chooses to chase an illusion of the mind, since all hearing depends on an entirely subjective mental process

[@audibleeleganceinc]

Thank you for your contribution to the video and channel. I think you have some balance in your approach. Amen. Please let others know about this channel and the other 230 plus videos. Please subscribe too!