The disappearance of men | Christine Emba

“Masculinity” has become synonymous with “toxic.” Journalist Christine Emba explains how that happened, and how it can change.
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Young men are increasingly finding themselves single and struggling to meet traditional expectations. Journalist Christine Emba breaks down the masculinity crisis and what can be done to fix it.
The rise of "manfluencers" like Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan reflects a new type of masculinity that both challenges and redefines what it means to be a man today. While these influencers often offer empathy and simple life advice, their viewpoints tend to escalate into misogyny, resulting in even more societal isolation for men down the road.
Emba’s advice is for men to evaluate what masculinity means to them - Is it strength? Support of a family? Leadership through conflict? She stresses these traits need not exist in opposition to the traits of women, and instead can complement them, leading to a more productive, cohesive, and ultimately happier society.
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About Christine Emba:
Christine Emba is an opinion columnist and Editorial Board member at the Washington Post, and also serves as a contributing editor for Comment magazine. She is the author of "Rethinking Sex: A Provocation." Before coming to The Post in 2015, Christine was the Hilton Kramer Fellow in Criticism at the New Criterion and a deputy editor at the Economist Intelligence Unit, focusing on technology and innovation. She grew up in Virginia and holds an A.B. in public and international affairs from Princeton University.

[@user-tm7ug5to7p]

Here’s a few thoughts… (from a 63 year old man). Set aside gender. Practice being a good human. Let go of the need to dominate. Let go of the negative connotations of being a man. We are here for a short visit. Practice harm free living. Embrace love of life and all things living. Turn away from influencers, following any influencer/ guru too close will create a copy at best. Develop a practice of turning off the outside noise to hear what comes from within. Discover what sparks for you. Bring it to life and live passionately. Do not believe all of the nonsense that is being pushed at you from all directions. We all have the equal right to live in peace. It is up to each of us, (humans), to take responsibility for our actions and create a reality worth living.

[@brittenyevans1101]

Wow, this is actually great advice 🥰

[@cosalidra759]

Amen 🙌

[@Nico-wc9gd]

Best advice on here

[@duran9664]

TLDR Too Long Can’t Read 😒

[@redtiger8275]

Well said

[@Zero_Zero_Zero_Zero]

Honestly it takes some bravery for creators to talk about this because of the backlash they'll no doubt receive. I can only respect her willingness to do it anyway. Gratitude for your care.

[@user-co4xl7wx3q]

Cancel culture is a disgusting aspect of the ever creeping pestilence known as cuIturaI marx¡sm

[@jackaguirre8576]

The fact that there is a fear of backlash for talking about men's problems shows how bad the problem is regarding society's views of men. Men experience real problems and society needs to acknowledge this and face it.

[@Zero_Zero_Zero_Zero]

@@jackaguirre8576 completely agree.

[@joseph2664]

Did u miss the pat where she has a book to sell? Of course she wants to talk about it.

[@Zero_Zero_Zero_Zero]

@@joseph2664 shhh. We're trying to reward the behavior we want repeated my brother.

[@JasonMcMullen]

Something not mentioned here: the advent of social media and dating apps have not only changed the social dynamic between men and women but also changed the source of 'fulfillment' for men and women. Many men don't get fulfillment from these platforms and actually feel rejected by them, which has a significant impact on mental health

[@boogie1434]

Hell yeah, very good point

[@JasonMcMullen]

@@boogie1434

[@racecarrik]

Top 10% of men have never had it easier to thrive. Bottom 90% have never had it harder. This applies economically and socially.

[@TL-rh1lf]

So you'd like to trade places with a serf or peasant?

[@arju6996]

What are you talking about? The average male experience overall is much better than it has ever been in history. People aren't being sent to wars, dying of diseases, and suffering from poverty as much anymore.

[@Feralzen]

The isolation and loneliness for men is real. Thank you for addressing these issues. We need to address these issues.

[@AustinThinker79]

As an isolated and lonely man, I appreciate the sentiment.

[@andrewweaver2517]

Shut up and be stoic. Men don't cry. Go to the bar and drink with all the other men who aren't lonely

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

Gender ratio is 50-50 so…

[@options.trading.]

I agree. Women just want MONEY. Not MEN. These days. IMO.

[@PugilPixels]

True strength lies in emotional vulnerability - the ability to process feelings and ask for help. Modern leadership isn't about dominance but collaboration and empowering others. We need to redefine strength beyond physicality. It's about standing for what's right, admitting mistakes, and being emotionally present. It's time to celebrate the diverse ways men can be strong, caring leaders without a restrictive, outdated definition.

[@PanzerRatten]

When men ACTUALLY open up emotionally, they get publicly mocked by everyone, and women find them less attractive. Vulnerability for men is almost always perceived as weakness, and a weak man is effectively worthless. You may not think they are worthless, but our society absolutely does. And no amount of pretending and eloquent soapboxing will change that fact.

[@painunending4610]

Why do men have to leaders? Why is leadership seen as masculine? If men are leaders, what does that make women? Followers? Can women be leaders? Personally I think people should be their own leader and follower. I see no leaders I like nowadays, so many of them are hierarchical and just in it for the power

[@painunending4610]

​@@martamajer 'divine masculine and divine feminine' Should we look up our horoscopes and align or chakras while we're at it? This spiritual gibberish helps no one

[@painunending4610]

Why is leadership associated with masculinity? Are all men supposed to be leaders? I don't wanna be a leader, too much pressure and power for me If leadership is masculine what does that mean for femininity? Is it feminine to be a follower? Are women naturally followers That's the issue. This new definition is still very exclusionary

[@Ramdapanda]

@@painunending4610 I belive your asking the wrong questions. Why is masculine = man? Why is feminine = woman?

[@princem5155]

She successfully identified some of the issues men face but completely missed the mark when it comes to the reasons why

[@limbeboy7]

Imagine a man sitting here talking about periods and Tampons

[@alexis22712]

@@limbeboy7I’m sure there’s research on it or at correlational data she could have presented on WHY. not just a woman’s opinion…

[@GreedRuinsEverything]

She is the reason why... and women will fall when the men stop caring. They don't realize who maintains the foundations All those women road crews building bridges, ports, highways, buildings... I must have missed that

[@idk-ye7ur]

​@@limbeboy7He could do it, it's not crazy, just biology.

[@lllCTHULHUlll]

​@@limbeboy7 We did listen to men sit and talk about periods and tampons and still do. Our legislators love regulating women's bodies while knowing almost nothing about them. But, you know what? I really love men who stand up for women and talk about the issues that effect us even when they're slightly wrong. More men should stand up for women and more women should stand up for men. We should be protecting and supporting each other - not tearing each other down. But here you are trying to tear a woman down for being supportive of men. Then you'll wonder why none of them will date you. Be the change you want to see in the world or sit and complain about it and be miserable.

[@selam1353]

She is on point on the issues. She completely lost it on the reasons why. Also her examples of influencers are mostly obnoxious and completely exaggerated, these people are not in the majority 😂

[@Ashallmusica]

As a 24 year old guy, the world is so f* up that it looks useless to think about having a family in future. I had to quit my studies just after 10th grade and work to support my family. But my younger sister is a graduate and now aiming for masters. Now where should i complain about my lost teenage life. I'm working a low paying job with lots of debts and still not owning my own house. Everything, just looks faded.

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@shanesawyer5103]

@@TheOne1One1One1OneYou didn’t need to post that stupid comment like 50 times bro

[@steven_king]

So then let me talk to you, young man...as a 39 year old man who is just now about to finish the last year of his degree. I remember (very clearly) being 24 years old. It felt like it was yesterday (literally). I remember thinking about how old I felt, and that I had experienced so much life...and that maybe even my best years were behind me. So every year, I’d put off...for another year, and another year...getting back to school, doing all the things I’ve only done over the past 5 years that have made my life inconceivably better. I can’t tell you, can’t even begin to tell you...all the wasted years. All the regret I have, working those dead end jobs. The depression. God, just awful. It only gets harder when you get older. You think it’s tough having no education at 24? It’s REALLY tough having no education at 30, and it’s even harder at 40. I had to get EXTREMELY creative in order to figure out a way to get myself into and through college. Not to mention...I failed out of 10th grade. I couldn’t do math, period. I was SO BAD at it, they asked how I got past 6th grade. So when I started in college, they had to start me in a really, really low math (and reading) class. But that built up my confidence. Now...I have a blast tutoring Calculus 3. It really is fun...when you have a good teacher (you can usually find them in college), and you learn from the beginning. I had to do some REALLY hard things in order to make this happen...but now that I finally got here...bro I can’t even begin to tell you the sense of pride and meaning I feel everyday. I have a 4.0 GPA and I’m applying for Harvard Business School on a full scholarship. When I was 24 I was working on an offshore oil rig out in the middle of the ocean. You can get here to. DO IT. I met an absolutely beautiful girl here (since there ARE so many more women than men in college...you kind of have your pick). I’ve been offered a job making 190K a year...straight out of school. It used to take me 5 years to earn that much money. All the hard work (the living out of my car, being homeless for a bit)...it was worth it 10x over. I know it sucks dude...and it’s hard. It’s got to be hard, it’s life...and it’s gonna be hard no matter what you do...but you get to choose your “hard”...I would highly, highly recommend choosing THIS hard...

[@shanesawyer5103]

@@steven_king What did you major in?

[@SaitamaLover]

Hang in there, bud. That's the only advice I can give you 😓. I only hope the best for you, and hope you can find happiness and strength in your life ❤

[@jkae91]

As soon as I come of age, it felt like my manhood was something I should feel ashamed about. I love being a man, but yet feel like I should somehow apologise for all of the wrongdoings of bad men from the past. Even the very topic of our struggles with mental illness and suicide are met with a kind of ambivalence and a general lack of empathy. And yet, we are still told we benefit from male privilege at every angle.

[@sageofsixpaths98]

You're not alone bro, a large section of men feels the same.

[@JohnPretty1]

Without their mothers there would be no "bad" men. Humans are flawed.

[@Leonhart_93]

Don't apologize or think about apologizing, for nothing more than existing. If you do, you fell for their BS.

[@rikk319]

This isn't a black and white issue. There are some messed up things men have done over the millennia, and there's some messed up things being said to men who had nothing to do with that stuff in the past. I know one thing for sure, as history shows--you can't go back to what used to be. Time goes in one direction, and so does culture and social order...whether that means a social system has to reorganize and go through tough times, well...that's been shown as something that happens in history, too.

[@Leonhart_93]

​ @rikk319 No way, it's quite clear that humans are very primal and the more society advances in comfort, the more they revert to their primal nature. Recent events are proof of this. Men had to be strong and enforce strict societal norms for a reason. Now, the moment they didn't, they aren't expected anymore. And it's all their fault.

[@IverBG97]

"Safe areas for men... the industrial sector", you mean the workplaces workers fought hard to escape since they were incredibly dangerous and paid so little that their families could hardly get by? Yeah, such a shame they're gone.

[@valco7981]

There's a huuuge gap between Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. They're nothing alike. I like your reasoning but nothing I hadn't heard from Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Heidt or Camille Paglia. They dig much deeper into this issue.

[@heha2684]

A biiiiiiiiiiig gap.

[@user-sm1jp4en9u]

Yeah...lol.. I used to listen to jp but now I don't but yeah he is wayyyyy different than Andrew Tate

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@josemadrid2913]

I don’t think she was saying that they were all the same. She just gave them all as examples

[@themasstermwahahahah]

Yeah, seeing Jessie James West and Liverking as both "fitness gurus" was kind of startling

[@multivariateperspective5137]

Not just men that had no male figure, but also had a distorted projection from their bad moms

[@progamer-df3be]

True. Many of them were raised by singel mothers and when people shame men for showing any sign of masculinity or what they call "toxic masculinity ", ofc they will listen to someone like andrew tate, bc thats the only place where at least some healthy and good masculine traits are being excepted and not shamed until you wanna end yourself.

[@oxymoron500]

But why didn't they have a male figure? Why do fathers leave so often?

[@marte1376]

LOL, you had the privilege to have a mom but put her down. Your father was the one being absent not your mother. Misogyny goes deep into this issues

[@marte1376]

​@@progamer-df3be Andrew tate is garbage, not surprised men are getting hate. Ladies won't upfront with that nonsense anymore. Is not a shame to be a single mother , I a shame leaving your family, check your points

[@CoronaryArteryDisease.]

@@marte1376 My friend, the commenter never said they had an abusive mother. They are just saying that there are men out there who have definitely had abusive mothers. That is by no means misogyny.

[@NoelTorres_noletorious]

She loses me at the end.

[@numbersix8919]

Whoa me too. The video was over and I was like, what she say! I had tuned out just after she mentioned testosterone. OK, I'm listening again and she is saying that men should be pro-social, OK here is is, she is talking about boxing both sexes in, a zero-sum game between men and women. Both sexes have to be doing well! So Ms Emba never mentioned how men can do well. The structural forces she outlined that disenfranchised men, globalization, de-industrialization, and problems finding partners, are only getting worse and worse! So it seems that the solution is political and economic. So we're screwed after all.

[@bitey-facepuppyguy2038]

@@numbersix8919 My particular take on these problems is that like so many others plaguing society today, they are routed in the economic and political ideology of Neoliberalism. I believe that without a major change in the way our economic system is run, almost all of the problems you mentioned above can't really be addressed. Consider the possibility that the root problem is not a battle between men and women but rather an economic system that has not made life better for the average person for the past 40 years.

[@sigma4309]

true

[@MrMalorian]

We are at a unique point in history where men are villainized for what their stereotype was, and yet are expected to uphold the stereotype. Don't be toxic and controlling (ok cool), but you're still responsible for the financial well being of the family. Be a leader, but don't lead. I'm sure the time will come soon when all the expectations are gone, and the family unit will function together without shame or blame, but we aren't there yet.

[@kyliechristina234]

Very well said.

[@mas5398]

Responsibility without authority is slavery

[@user-sm1jp4en9u]

The thing is even in a traditional family structure the women had more value.

[@user-fm5eh1fi5z]

''Don't be toxic and controlling (ok cool), but you're still responsible for the financial well being of the family'' what does being toxic and controlling have to do with providing?

[@samthesomniator]

Usually you are already in a very financial privileged position if you can effort only one part being the provider. That is not the reality for most people. Having a partner, male or female however, to stay at home is a giant luxury. You need real wealth for that.

[@sethberger8]

Imagine being shown a list of truly amazing qualities that 80% of people, if they spent 10 years of thier lives working on could not obtain. And then being conditioned into believing your only value is in how many other people will profit from your blood, sweat, and tears.

[@AmazePaulz]

Here here. At the bottom of a stall at work, someone has written, in teensy tiny writing: "its all a lie". She doesn't get THAT bit. The slave solidarity of expendable labour

[@3rkid]

Can you elaborate on what you mean here

[@sethberger8]

@@3rkid I can certainly try my best... Growing up young men are taught a great man is strong. An exceptional man is courageous. And an outstanding man is honest. The teacher will use the words great, exceptional, and outstanding because he understands the time, effort, and willpower it takes to truly embody a single one of these characteristics. And anyone can take a look around and see that the people who actually have these traits are few and far between. Then at some point Women saw a couple of these truly exceptional human beings and in stead of appreciating the hard work and sacrifices it took to gain these beautiful traits they decided that this is the new standard of what a man is. They say a man is strong as if someone can become strong without being beat down over and over and over again. They say a man is courageous as if finding something truly worth risking your life for is a simple task. They say a man is honest as if true honesty comes without years of hard work understanding yourself and the world around you. They have taken what we saw as a nobel and selfless gift and somehow turned it into a tax that we owe them.

[@sethberger8]

@@3rkid I can certainly try my best... Growing up young men are taught a great man is strong. An exceptional man is courageous. And an outstanding man is honest. The teacher will use the words great, exceptional, and outstanding because he understands the time, effort, and willpower it takes to truly embody a single one of these characteristics. And anyone can take a look around and see that the people who actually have these traits are few and far between. Then at some point Women saw a couple of these truly exceptional human beings and in stead of appreciating the hard work and sacrifices it took to gain these beautiful traits they decided that this is the new standard of what a man is. They say a man is strong as if someone can become strong without being beat down over and over and over again. They say a man is courageous as if finding something truly worth risking your life for is a simple task. They say a man is honest as if true honesty comes without years of hard work understanding yourself and the world around you. They have taken what we saw as a nobel and selfless gift and somehow turned it into a tax that we owe them.

[@sethberger8]

I can certainly try my best... Growing up young men are taught a great man is strong. An exceptional man is courageous. And an outstanding man is honest. The teacher will use the words great, exceptional, and outstanding because he understands the time, effort, and willpower it takes to truly embody a single one of these characteristics. And anyone can take a look around and see that the people who actually have these traits are few and far between. Then at some point Women saw a couple of these truly exceptional human beings and in stead of appreciating the hard work and sacrifices it took to gain these beautiful traits they decided that this is the new standard of what a man is. They say a man is strong as if someone can become strong without being beat down over and over and over again. They say a man is courageous as if finding something truly worth risking your life for is a simple task. They say a man is honest as if true honesty comes without years of hard work understanding yourself and the world around you. They have taken what we saw as a nobel and selfless gift and somehow turned it into a tax that we owe them.

[@christopheryang5899]

Chris Rock said it best. Only women and children are unconditionally loved. Men have to earn their love. An average man will always have a harder time than an average woman in finding love and that includes self love. What we are seeing is the averages play out how men and women are not equal in how they are valued. Women beat out men every time. Only exceptional men stand out because by definition they are above average. And by definition average men are the majority of men.

[@undeadpark6980]

man, that quote ain't even true for children lol

[@Princessbubblegum567]

Lmao women loved unconditionally? I think that applies only to beautiful women. Have you seen how ugly women are treated? They're treated just as bad as men if not, worse.

[@rikk319]

@@undeadpark6980 Yeah, it's a very generalized trope, and not true all the time, so it doesn't fit everyone. It's trying to simplify something that isn't simple. There's a segment of men who crave being told what to do by what they imagine is a "strong" man, and it's a way of infantilizing themselves, still needing a father figure to tell them right from wrong. It makes them fall right into the hands of authoritarians, who tend to be narcissists who promise such men they will give them the respect or power or belonging they crave. It's not a new experience. Any strongman, dictator, gang leader, etc., counts on such men to give them the muscle to get what they want--and it's always about the leader, not the group. After all, group stuff is "communist", isn't it?

[@homosexualpanic]

What nonsense!

[@johnlone141]

The root of the problem is economics. Men and boys without agency is a ticking time bomb. In history, organised young men have been the most unstoppable force. We are already seeing a coalescing of interests, politics and resurgent masculine thinking. The current era has bought itself to its own end.

[@iceescape]

This comment should have way more likes. The only comment that actually addresses the main issue.

[@ncedwards1234]

Completely agreed. More people should see this.

[@icespeaker81]

Everyone is in denial of this, particularly women. Truth is, the violence and insanity of young men should not be underestimated. I'm really fearful for the future but no one will listen.

[@Garfield1itall]

​@@icespeaker81I've been saying this too for a while, people are ignoring the coming danger. Already right now, most fighting age men are single, childless and sexually frustrated, it's only a matter of time before these men go insane. Many of the young men are already starting to believe that the only way to restore marriage and family is to restore the patriarchy, that women's empowerment should never have happened. It really is a ticking timebomb.

[@tn18977]

In other words, men will take care of the problem.

[@ForAnAngel]

There is nothing more powerful than empathy. The sad thing is that if a man were to make these arguments he would immediately be dismissed.

[@haybale392]

You're right, there's nothing more powerful than empathy. I think we need empathy from and for both sides as we think about this topic. We need to understand the struggles men are going through and the valid emotions they are feeling and social change they are experiencing. I also think in that same thought we need to empathize and acknowledge with WHY men are dismissed when they talk about their struggles and remember the whole picture. I myself am a woman, and was going down the bitter road, until I read Bell Hook's The Will to Change which gave me so much empathy for men and what they are going through without taking away from what women have gone through and continue to go through.

[@ForAnAngel]

@@haybale392 Why do you think men are dismissed when they talk about their struggles?

[@dylanwarnecke1613]

@@ForAnAngel How many times have women bashed "mens rights activists"?

[@haybale392]

@@ForAnAngel It's difficult to hear the woes of the group that has dominated the other for centuries. It's hard to empathize with the group that have been and still are the oppressors and have had and still have so much privilege. Imagine there are two siblings, one had their college paid for, a large allowance, and great mentors that help them succeed. The other wasn't allowed to go to college, they weren't given an allowance or mentorship. Now, that first sibling is talking about how difficult their life is because someone took away their allowance, but they still have the free education and mentorship. How would you expect the second sibling to respond to their hardship? Would you expect them to only have empathy and support that first sibling? I'm not saying we shouldn't have empathy for men, I'm just saying it's sometimes hard to and I hope men can understand why.

[@ForAnAngel]

@@haybale392 I hope you can understand that the men struggling today haven't "dominated" or been "oppressors" for "centuries". You can't treat a 20 year old as if they were around in the 1800's. Your question actually reminded me a lot of my own life. I'm actually a man with a twin sister. When we graduated from high school my parents couldn't afford to send both of us to college at the same time. So she went away to college and I got a job. I gave most of my money to my parents which they then sent to her since she was too busy with school and having a social life to also get a job. After she graduated I saved up money to start going to college but after just one semester, my mother got sick (ALS) and so I had to drop out of college to earn money. When she got real sick my father had quit working to take care of her full time and she couldn't work either obviously because she was dying. So there I was working 80 hours a week making minimum wage trying to support myself and both my parents. I did this from age 19 to 21 until she died. Where was my sister? Off living her life, she wouldn't even come visit let alone help out. So please don't tell me that because men had been in charge for centuries before I was born that means that I didn't deserve any help. You have no idea how hard some men have it. I lived my whole life and didn't even realize I was autistic until I was almost 40. You say you have sympathy for men but then you blame men alive today for everything men did for the last few centuries.

[@HerbertLandei]

I'm 50 years old, never had a longer relationship, and while I have identified the personal issues holding me back, I often ask myself: Is it really worth the struggle? What if I got finally through my emotional mess and childhood trauma, crawl out of my hole, only to find myself still unwanted, unseen, unlovable? What if my vulnerability and wish for intimacy is abused, and I end up in an even deeper hole than I am in now? What if I overcome my trust issues, just to get my trust shattered by the first person I open up to? As more I think about it, as cozier my current little hole appears. This world isn't made for me, I hate its rules, its stupid games and its ideals.

[@justjakereviews101]

Well, let’s think about it. For decades, regardless of what side of the political spectrum you stand, men have been told from nearly every direction that they are the problem. Men have been told that they don’t deserve their status or their position and are constantly bombarded with negativity. Eventually, this will have a impact. There has been a psychological warfare conducted on men for quite some time now and young men specifically suffer the most from that. If you are conservative, this leads men feeling isolated and views the world as their enemy. If you are liberal, this leads men to hate themselves and feel, again, isolated.

[@FindingMeaningNow]

You're spot on, we keep letting this narrative fester and grow into something more and more toxic instead of creating a new foundation where we acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of both sides so that we can bring them together to foster a healthier world view and grow together as we always have. Minus slavery and all the other atrocities we've committed as a species

[@---Dana----]

Sorry not sorry but men are the problem and always have been the problem. Much of it is biological but a significant portion is male culture, what you tell yourselves and each other. Men have to deal with reality before they can change it. That doesn't mean that you or my wonderful husband are part of the problem individually but even my husband says men are the problem. He says why do you lock your doors? Men.

[@vigilance6806]

Don’t forget society is also telling women they are goddesses who deserve 6’ 6figure 6pack abs and nothing less. Men are conditioned to suffer, women to be exalted. It’s going to hit the later much harder down the road.

[@wnose]

This is the future. Men have been too priveleged for too long. Finally women can be safe.

[@user-sm1jp4en9u]

Makes sense... especially the liberal part. I think some men are just liberal out of guilt.

[@datturtleboiii6102]

I went into this, very eager to hear what she had to say, but then she made it sound like it was mens own fault and completely lost me.

[@onehalfspin]

I've yet to see a single article or video of a supposed "male ally" woman where they didn't end up COMPLETELY missing the point by the end. It always comes back around to "we need to help men be better, because then they can help women/society." But when it's non-men, they deserve help because they're human beings. Men? We need to help them because we need them to do things for us. No matter how "well-intentioned" they seem, none of these women ever get it right. Even when we keep telling them over and over what our problems are. It's like their brains are simply incapable of seeing men, individually or collectively, as human beings.

[@arresthillary9502]

because she is ignorant

[@nightmareTomek]

I contemplated to downvote the vid. The message is positive, but also kinda empty.

[@wingpaper]

its hard to listen to reason

[@bogie016]

Very soft and patronizing as usual

[@drradon]

Anti male extremism leads to male extremism. Potentially decrease sexism equally for better results. Now go one to dismiss this and call me sexist to keep the cycle alive.

[@nataliaalfonso2662]

Okay. So would you say anti-female extremism leads or female extremism? Bc women weren’t even considered people deserving of human rights until really recently. And still aren’t many places. And even in the places where they are on paper, they don’t experience that day to day. So…….. men can violate and subjugate women super mega extremely for decades…. And never change when anyone asks for rights. And only extremism even granted women basic human rights…. And now men are MORE EXTREME? I don’t see men as more extreme the more extreme anti-maleness gets. They were absolute dictators when the world was entirely pro-male. This video even shows how the more extreme anti-maleness is, the softer and more pathetic men get. Bc abuse works. That’s why extreme anti-femaleness worked for literal millennia.

[@stephensharper4312]

Amen brother

[@minimcune]

What this take is missing is that even in the face of anti-male extremism, males still have a choice in how they behave. The world is not happening at you, or to you, it is happening inside your mind. And that, friends, is completely up to you.

[@mobilemarshall]

@@minimcune :|

[@bunniewood]

This comment should be at the top.

[@antwanjones6048]

It's better to not care too much about other's opinions on your masculinity and just focus on your own individual path to happiness. Write the book you want to read, make the music you want to hear, film the movie you want to see. Through those efforts you'll find your community and purpose. Develop a talent. Find a trade. Focus on fitness, finance and faith. The less noise you take in through media, KZbin included, you'll clear your mind and find peace in yourself. Masculinity has been narrowly defined in recent times due to cultural shifts. It's our turn to make the rules and redefine masculinity on our own terms.

[@j.davila4523]

Preach

[@TL-rh1lf]

@@JulieAziza like the guy that goes to war and gets his face blown off, kids dying of cancer or the millions of homeless living on the streets getting spit on everyday... yeah a lot of path and purpose there.

[@marcopenner108]

The real problem is that people don’t mind their own business.

[@heliogenesi]

Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate examples, how she tried to melt those in the same pot and simplifiying their 'message' to something it definitely is not, absolutely undermined this whole video and show how clueless the speaker is. Otherwise she actually had potential to make sense.

[@billusher2265]

She didn’t though, she just brought them up as examples of popular non-mainstream male influencers

[@eon6274]

???

[@heliogenesi]

​@@billusher2265 4:56 She literally did by labeling them - and many others of course - as manfluencers and then saying those 3 names as examples. Immediately after she goes on the say they are the ones telling men that the world did them wrong? I don't know much about Tate but that is the most out of touch take I have heard on Joe Rogan or Jordan Peterson. And trying to water all that down to her bringing them up as examples of popular non-mainstream male influencers is ridiculous.

[@billusher2265]

@@heliogenesi they’re all influencers, they all have a mostly male audience, and all have said society has mistreated men in some form. So not really wrong.

[@heliogenesi]

@@billusher2265 It is absolutely wrong because the way she frames it is as if they are telling men that they are victims or the main issue is the society being against men, she's distorting the narrative. Those influencers do not have a main narrative that can be summarized that simply and when she does, she is mislabeling them. Anyone who doesn't follow the 'manfluencers' or all they saw from them is a few bits and pieces of media (which is likely going to be through their critics already), is going to be caught in her version of the narrative. She even says 'it is not all bad there is some good there' very condescending and funny actually. I'm not even a 'fan' of these influencers, I agree with their stance on some things at best but I did consume enough media from to be able to tell she has the view of an outsider and spreading misinformation in this video.

[@mark49419]

if a man were to come up with a more positive vision for femininity all hell would break loose

[@tritisan]

This.

[@septanine5936]

I think that's because historically men have dictated what femininity is allowed to be, but for the most part women haven't had much of a say on what masculinity should be

[@mark49419]

@@septanine5936 so it's shameful that men historically influenced femininity, but good when women presently try to influence masculinity?

[@AB-ce3nn]

@@septanine5936 this. 💯

[@mcd4370]

@@septanine5936 thank you, nuance and context, something that isn’t much of in the comments

[@VeReePW]

There is a thin line between male protection and domination, the same between female care and control. It is essential to be aware of this line and be mindful of communication of personal boundaries. Maybe this way, the couples don’t fall into the trap of games and fighting. The balance is a key I think 🔐

[@HAPPLIP]

Totally agree on this. The key is clear and honest communication because people truly believe their interpretations of '' how '' something is said vs the literal '' what '' is being said is the absolute truth. It's odd how scenarios in our heads supercede what is present in reality right in front of us. I can admit to doing this time to time.

[@painunending4610]

Personally I want a woman who can protect herself and doesn't need me to do it for her

[@bcarlizzle]

It's a little wack to mention title 9 without talking about the lack of push to support men. Female graduation has been higher for a while without a proper reaction. I grew up with women-only career support opportunities. There were none for men. They focused on gender over people.

[@user-qe9if3ny9i]

Where we took a wrong turn is that now a woman is sitting and discussing how pathetic we are and feeling sorry for us how she wants us to survive. Where did we take this step when we lost ourselves?

[@RangeWilson]

"Hey males, you should be pro-social in your masculinity. Also, males, you can be fired on the spot because some female thinks you looked at her funny." Do you see any inconsistency between these two concepts? To the extent males see society as anti-male, they are simply going to opt out.

[@BalanceOvOpposites]

I saw an interview of some actress recently where she said the sex scenes were uncomfortable bec "there were a bunch of guys around watching and breathing." Lol

[@altertopias]

@@BalanceOvOpposites Well, some directors have really small sets with very specific people for sex scenes. She probably would have preferred that. I would too if I were to be partially naked in front of people.

[@altertopias]

Well, I'm sure the second has happened, and it would be awful, but I suspect it's not very common. Meanwhile I have had friends harassed by guys at work and they were never fired. So ultimately, we should just have fair rules for what sort of behaviour is unacceptable and what the consequences are for that behaviour. I agree with you that looking at someone funny isn't unacceptable. But I hope you agree with me that making inappropriate comments to someone who works for you is, and if that behaviour continues despite warnings, it should be grounds for getting fired.

[@rikk319]

Yeah, I'm a man, over 50, have worked both blue collar and white collar jobs, and I've never seen or heard a woman who did something like you quoted. I have seen more than enough men in jobs, blue or white collar, who talked shit about women behind their back who worked there. Claiming society is anti-male is like saying society is anti-christian when like 80% of the country is christian.

[@UdumbaraMusic]

@@BalanceOvOpposites Are you saying a bunch of men watching you pretend to have sex wouldn't make you uncomfortable as well? C'mon :P

[@Buff_Cupcake]

42 year old male here and I'm probably the most isolated i've ever felt. I am really grateful that things are slowly changing for the better in society. But I really feel like i have no importance in the future state and no ability to contribute in a meaningful way. I used to feel okay about myself. I tend to cross the street if I see a woman because I don't want to make her feel unsafe by passing by her by. I rarely make eye contact with women in situations in public where I need to interact directly - e.g buying something from a store / a coffee etc. If i do talk to a woman in conversation, i'm incredibly concious about my physical size, so I try to hunch or find a way to make myself smaller because i'm worried i'll make her feel unsafe. I feel incredibly uncomfortable and self conscious about my gender and my associated identity. I work in a wonderfully diverse company, but one which consistently overlooks straight white males for promotion and career growth to an extreme. I'm a new minority. But rather than a minority that might have initiative and effort to support it, I'm being slowly and systematically erased. Seeing all of the prejudice and sexism my mum experienced first hand and the racism my best friends experienced as I grew up and the frustration and sadness they experienced. I made a point for my adult life to advocate for an equal environment to live in, to support and be as much of an ally as I'm able to. But I'm kinda.....nothing now. My gender identity has slowly been leeched out to a point where I feel like a husk with no idea of who I am supposed to be now.

[@whynot13]

You are invalued. Although it might be hard for you to see it, I see it.

[@whynot13]

I don't quite have the words to describe how your post made me feel but I am proud of you, grateful to have read it, there is an incandescence to the feeling. Just know there is a stranger out there that sends you love when you feel that way

[@benhudson4014]

Hello friend thanks for your sharing your honest experience

[@coolbreeze5683]

I appreciate reading about your experience. Eventhough I'm a brown woman who grew up in the 80s and 90s, I can relate to what you're saying. Things have gotten better for me over time but back then, I had to learn to make myself small. I'd cross the street when I'd see white folks walking on my side of the sidewalk. There were occasions when they would clutch their purses and give angry looks, thinking I would steal from them. When I'd go shopping, I had to be hyper aware as to where I'd put my hands, where I would look, how I'm dressed, etc. since I have been accused of shoplifting. A retail worker even one time said "sorry, I thought you were Native Indian", as she wrongfully accused me of shoplifting. It wasn't just my imagination since overt racism (slurs, blatant exclusion) was in the open back then. I've tried to make myself smaller and invisible since it's either that or standing out and being criticized/insulted/ accused of something. Eventhough I've gone through that stuff in the past, I do not wish exclusion or bad feelings upon anyone. People's ancestors might have done some horrible things but we shouldn't punish those who are around today for things they had no part of in the past. Please don't think of yourself as a "husk". It's just a matter of discovering who you are now. It took years of adjustment for me to realize that I can now have more of a voice and to get over my fear of being seen. I think it's better to figure out how we want to be as humans and for ourselves instead of seeing things as gender, race, religion, etc. and trying to fit into boxes to appease others. We constantly reinvent ourselves throughout our life and this is just another opportunity for reinvention.

[@superbherb7947]

I am transcribing a poem I read on Amanda Seales’s instagram today. I don’t know the author, but apparently it’s from a book (or a section?) called “while you are healing”: you can fold yourself up into halves, quarters, or more. and still, you won't be small enough for the ones who feel entitled to your space. so fuck it. /unfold./

[@OddTJ]

How about an aspirational vision of femininity? We act like women and femininity are just fine but in reality they both have huge problems, including being the primary source of the "men are garbage" narrative. So myopic, how is this not on Little Think?

[@don220486]

I agree, we should hear a video on this subject too.

[@drradon]

Literally 99% of conversations are on how men are bad and women have it so hard and need support. The second you have a (relatively badly done) video on how men might be struggling someone pops up “Kant wee tok li bi moha bout woooman?!”

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@j.chanslor8221]

Already married, already had kids. Aside from providing income to them through the workforce, I am no longer useful to society as a man, only a consumer.

[@authorified89]

If you have a job thats somewhat useful to society, you can still feel useful. Otherwise find something useful to do if thats important to you. As I man your main job to society isn't providing seed anymore, humans are very very far from going extinct.

[@Ramdapanda]

How come it is that you see getting married and having kids are the only way you can contribute to society? Do you really belive that's true?

[@adamwilliams9307]

Now it's time to get involved in your community. You are not just a consumer unless that's what you want to be. But there is plenty of opportunity to be useful in your community, just find your niche and decide to what extent you want to get involved.

[@madwrld973]

And how exactly do you think your wife can now contribute to society in a way that matters more?? If a "man's job" ist to work and to consume, and to provide for his family, doesn't that mean that the woman has one less thing to offer? Because she would not have to "provide". This makes no sense and just makes you sound very unsympathetic towards women who, derived from your statement, have even less "use" once they reproduced and got married.

[@Etzelsschizo]

Or you know, he talked from his perspective and didn't consider the women's one because that's not the topic of this thread?

[@Earl_E_Burd]

"We have to come up with a positive vision of masculinity." 8:22 And by "we", guess who she means? Here comes the new wave of Disney films of women writing men. "I don't get it. We used our liberal arts graduate degrees to come up with a 'Man' marketing campaign group project, what more do they want?"

[@prrr4563]

It says more about you (that you take the "we" of her that way). Good luck with your negative point of view

[@wnose]

Men better accept it or else.

[@harrypcs]

Spot on. Recreate masculinity thru the lens of feminism.

[@zolika154]

@@prrr4563 Gaslighting.

[@Manullus]

The first part of the video describes a lot of real issues. When she begins to ask the question "where are those neets" her attitude doesn't match the reality of the situation anymore. It's possible that she just doesn't get what men are going through, because female reality and personality is just drastically different than those of males. Comparing JR and JP to Andrew Tate makes zero sense by the way, because neither of them, ever, tells people out there that they should adopt a victim mentality and blame the world. The opposite is what they've been advertising for, for a long while. So I don't know how this idea got to her. Andrew Tate is a different subject, he's far more complex to describe, but from my view, his moral code and messages don't produce a net good and aren't in line with JP and JR. So please don't put them all in the same boat. The conclusions towards the end of the video make sense, I agree fully with them. If one sex loses, both sexes lose. And we need to figure out how we bring men and women together again, if we want to prevent all of us losing.

[@Earl_E_Burd]

Problem statement: where are all the men? Answer: incels, MGTOW, video games, and manfluencers. Solution: redefine masculinity. Implication that men haven't been able to define it themselves, so one can deduce who should be in control of redefining it.

[@FindingMeaningNow]

Your analysis is on point, there's no comparison to be made between Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson since their messages are so vastly different, the only similarities between them is the acknowledgement of mens suffering. Jordan Peterson provides the pick yourself up by your bootstraps and start doing something method, while Andrew Tate leans into the toxic image feminism has created of men and tells younger men they should own this image and be proud of being men. But neither side has actually fully defined what it means to be a man.

[@sergiopacheco3783]

how funny a women talking a bout how men need to "be better" 8:50 yet men never tell women to be better.

[@kurainimusic]

I dont wanna participate in a society who dont value men, you guys can have it, Ill do my own thing in my room.

[@catatonicbug7522]

Society does value men, as long as they are valuable. Those who choose to contribute to the world around them, doing what necessary to remain capable of contributing, are valued greatly. Those who choose to only take from the world and expect things to be provided are not valued. Find the method of giving that gives you the greatest joy and make that your life's work.

[@kurainimusic]

@@catatonicbug7522 i agree, that's fair point, those who dont want to work shouldnt eat, and I dont encourage men to fall into victim mentality, but the analogy of what society is doing is like they making you work in exchange of a fake food, or they are making you work in exchange for an apple at the top of the mountain.. You get what im sayin? It's rigged bro.. Ive experience it, I was once a hard worker and optimistic. Now I let the women run the world, I dont even care anymore lol

[@JinKee]

@@catatonicbug7522buy bitcoin or gold and wait five years and you will have a greater return on investment than you can ever get with any other use of your money or time. That’s how much society values us- a pet rock with 0% yield and provable scarcity will be rewarded more than any of us will ever be. How do I know? It’s what I did, and it set me up for life. And it kills me to know that I could have even done similar returns by sitting on unopened pokemon cards. These things are all worthless, but our contributions are regarded even less.

[@sneakykidugo]

​@@catatonicbug7522 that's the problem, men are the only ones in society who need to bring value to the table first

[@catatonicbug7522]

@sneakykidugo How do you figure? We all have to bring something to the table to be valued by society. Different people value different things, so we attract the portion of society who values what we have to offer. That is one reason why more women than men are graduating from universities these days. Women in general are choosing to offer academic skills more and more, to attract the portion of society that values those skills.

[@JoeBrown-bt4qg]

Notice she narrates this whole video with a joyous smile

[@cainomac]

I’ve listened to a lot of Jordan Peterson and have never heard him say that the world has done anyone wrong. His focus is on personal responsibility, not blaming external influences for one’s problems.

[@jimtripathi]

Exactly

[@tommymarshall69]

I was going to say this too. When she lumped Peterson, Rogan, and Tate together I was like “ok all three of them discuss men’s stuff and/or appeal to men, but what they are actually saying is very different”. I certainly don’t agree with everything Jordan has ever said (which is true for pretty much anyone!), but I think there’s an enormous amount he’s said which was true, valuable, original, and highly compelling. It is puzzling me how even the most thoughtful and sympathetic women (like the thinker in this video) often don’t appreciate that.

[@blaisemennia9910]

To think men are just looking for a father figure to tell them “clean your room” is such a condescending take. If she did a little bit more digging she’ll realize that phrase is much deeper than that

[@evanescent3167]

in what part does she say she thinks that about men? you are twisting her words

[@blaisemennia9910]

⁠@@evanescent3167 5:43 that’s where she says that. And u wanna talk about twisting words? They insert a one second clip(out of context) of a 2 hour conversation between Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan as the lady claims the so called manfluencers are blaming female agency for men’s problems. If that isn’t disingenuous idk what is.

[@sub19audio78]

started good(at least a trend is recognized), went to bullshit at "men that drop out of society are jobless incels"

[@Ramdapanda]

She was talking specifically about a group of men that's not employed and not in education and that they seem to end up spending time on the internet instead of taking responsibility for their own lifes. Now, I know that that's not a 100% of that group but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a majority. What's your take on it?

[@SiegfriedLextr]

I saw another video made by this same channel, and this time it was a man talking about the same shit this woman is talking about, and someone actually commented "The meat grinder is running out of meat" 😂 These people are not actually trying to help men, they just want men to go back to the plantation.

[@strugglinghustler]

Many men just "nope out" and leave it to the rest of you to deal with the consequences.

[@arresthillary9502]

a lot of men have wised up. the men a woman like this narrator sees, are the suckers who are still playing the conventional game and being used and exploited the "weirdos" that are alone are quite content and FREEEEEEEEE

[@vivvpprof]

I have terrific amount of respect for them.

[@BlueHeart29]

can you imagine the scandal if a guy did the same thing talking about women?

[@BigGahmBoss]

There's a very good reason for this and we all need to accept it. Blame society

[@alejandrogarci2635]

Absolutely right. They now won the right to bullshit about men.

[@BlueHeart29]

@@BigGahmBoss actually you really need to eat, drink and sleep, the rest of the needs not so much. So we don't actually NEED to accept anything.

[@BigGahmBoss]

@BlueHeart29 naw you're wrong. Because on top of the obvious things you listed, we do need to coexist. Straight up. That's what society is

[@danyramos8139]

Actually, they do and have done it all history in more denigrating ways. open a book

[@oliviam7902]

To some this may sound “woo woo” but I’ve come to accept “man” and “woman” as energies (like yin and yang). We all have masculine and feminine energies in us and each of us has a different balance of masculine and feminine energies. To reduce these energies to gender identities and then discriminate (even positively) based on these genders is unhelpful for everyone. For example, companies that are promoting “women” because of a quota they need to respect in management are missing the point of why it is good for companies to have more feminine energy in higher management. However, most of the women I’ve met as managers do not promote feminine energies, rather, they’re promoted because they embrace the masculine energies of production, competition and work, work, work. So can we truly talk about equality if the feminine energies of caring and empathy are still so little valued in our society, and across all gender identities? Just look at the highest paid jobs. It’s certainly not the nurses, teachers, and childcare educators…

[@superbherb7947]

This can be stated in a less woo way. I believe I have differing amounts of these “energies” at different times of the day, year, over my life…and I’m just one person.

[@Ramdapanda]

This is a great take. Indeed it requires a fair bit of awareness to not consider it woo but once you get there it's incredibly hard to deny.

[@jilliankavanaugh7971]

👏👏👏

[@SogMosee]

youre too woke

[@painunending4610]

You're right that does sound 'woo woo'

[@onetrickpony4179]

I'm a white male. I think I'll make a video explaining to Christine all the challenges of being black.

[@MinnesotaEverything]

Black man here…. A black woman is the most masculine woman and is the last person who should be doing a video on men!

[@vivvpprof]

👌😊

[@user-vo3vs1ds1p]

One of the greatest things you can do to be a man is master your cell phone and internet usage.... distraction is one of the greatest challenges of our day.

[@naza220]

Now, please do an episode called "Toxic Femininity" on the disappearance of women!

[@killy374]

She won't cuz she's s hypocrite

[@wi11ialvl]

People, not just men, need good friends and family. Community that you can be physically there for, much more than something you get online. I believe this is what can fix a lot of people's problems/issues.

[@robocombo]

We just need to operate a meritocratic society instead of stacking the deck to place men at the bottom of the pack of cards and selecting everyone else from the top. Simple fairness to all regardless of sex, gender, race, disability or religion.

[@c2charles757]

I think what bothers people is the false equivalence between Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan, vs Andrew tate or "manfluencers" (a buzzword). These three do not tell the same message, and only Andrew Tate tells a message "in opposition to femaleness". As a result, the speaker comes across as uninformed at best, manipulative at worst. Furthermore, the proposed solution to come up with a "specific masculinity" is equivalent to finding something different from femaleness, which is the same thing that she says is the root problem of "manfluencers". Finally, she closes by saying that women should be all those things also, which inherently undercuts her message and gives her a patronizing tone. She is saying "men should find something different, but women should be able to do those things too." In concert, these things make her something of a "womansplainer", a woman who has limited understanding of a male experience telling men how to think.

[@Cherryjango]

It's disgustingly lazy and politically motivated for them to act like a sex trafficker and a world renowned ivy league psychology professor are in any way comparable. It makes it difficult to even take the video seriously. The very first thing she even mentioned about Peterson and Rogan is blatantly false too. Neither of them ever tell men that they are victims, or that society is to blame for their problems. They both encourage men to look inwards, find their own flaws, and focus on discipline and self improvement.

[@CCMorgan]

👏👏👏

[@kyliechristina234]

👏👏👏👏👏

[@kyliechristina234]

@@Cherryjango 💯

[@mas5398]

Omg couldn’t have said it any better myself

[@emmental2020]

I appreciate the effort, but she doesn't really get it. She's only scratched the surface.

[@Garfield1itall]

In my country, New Zealand, the marriage rate last peaked in 1971, by 2020 the marriage rate had fallen by over 80%, while the divorce rate rose in that time from about 15% to over 40%. Most of the fighting age men are single, childless, sexually frustrated and worse, they have almost no hope of ever having a family of their own. Yeah, our current way of life is doomed.

[@kevinmcgrane4279]

I think of my father’s generation regarding masculinity. My father was of the WW2 generation, and they all had a sense of industry, modesty, and humility about themselves. They lived quietly, responsibly, and cared for their family and friends. After seeing so much trauma and heartbreak through the Depression and then WW2, they looked for peace and simpler pleasures. They were not full of themselves. We’re they perfect? Nope. But they were good, and they enemy of the good is the perfect. I often think that if men today remembered them, we’d be okay.

[@Durantis]

It's absolutely crazy to me that more nuanced takes like these are as scarce as they are.

[@themasstermwahahahah]

​@@TheOne1One1One1OneWhile dating apps are a contributing factor, I sincerely expect that societal factors such as the increasing economic power of women are likely more in play. One could argue women are more picky in a dating app from an evolutionary perspective, but before working for themselves that basically were forced to marry someone that made money to support a family. Women did not achieve this power easily, any many feel like it could still be taken away and thus some women have a side effect of being a little bit sexist against men.

[@wayneshelson7295]

@@TheOne1One1One1One And let me guess, all the guys are only hunting on one app, and just want to settle down right? HA! So let's not pin that totally women either, it's always been a buyer's market, and women are the ones buying. They don't owe anyone sex, or a relationship, just like men don't owe them either; no one does. And they can turn down as many people as they want to, guys gotta up their game. Completely agree about social media though, that shit is toxic as hell.

[@superbherb7947]

Popular and social media (such as KZbin) thrives on headlines, sound bites, and triggering outrage - for nuance you need longer forms.

[@oraz.]

This isn't that nuanced, it's still a feminist premise about male psychology to explain their outcomes. It's just slightly rebranded rhetorically. Apparently no one has any criticism of this message, just full support.

[@Durantis]

@@oraz. It opens with the statement: 'Most men aren't CEO's', and 'its easy to focus on a certain set of men who are doing well, but the majority of men aren't'. You are right, it isn't very nuanced, and only scratches the surface on why this groupthink is totally misguided, but it is stil far far more nuanced then 99% of takes that are going around, from all sides.

[@rksyt838]

Somehow strikes me as someone who doesn't know many men

[@isaiahsanfilippo368]

Literally the opposite of what Jordan Peterson says. His message boils down to "take responsibility for your own life."

[@dennisrperrin3611]

I’m struggling to see how she is helping men with her vital statistics.

[@ewhoyer]

It is sometimes hard to discuss concerns about the education gap that has grown between men and women (acceptance rates, attendance and dropout rates) without sounding like a conspiracy throwing incel. Good to have collaborators that can help in the discussion.

[@urproblem]

Real men doesn't worry about what a real man does. We should all be focusing on being 'real humans' not 'real men' or 'real women'. As you said we are all getting boxed in by labels, it's time we largely dropped them and opened our minds.

[@Bknecht100]

^^ this is it

[@jaythefox]

Truth! We can all cultivate the masculine and feminine balance. Taoism is one of the philosophies which understand this.

[@favouroluwafadejimileo-ade4507]

Woke culture complained about being labelled, yet they added more labels than they met.

[@alper8974]

Real women - only goes for someone with money and looks

[@tritisan]

This is a hopelessly naive take. We all need role models. You can’t tell a young woman “you should grow up to be like such and such man” and a young man “you should be like like this woman”. It simply doesn’t work this way in our natures.

[@finnwitham2634]

i think that we need to move away from constructs like “good man” and “good woman” and start focusing on good human. gender and sex matter much less than our society have built them up to, and i think we can all benefit from enhancing traits like empathy, pursuing passions, striving for goals within education/the workplace, and developing stronger relationships with the people in our life. ultimately, very few people are going to embody perfect femininity/masculinity. it needs to be about tapping into our humanity, not changing the inherently limiting box of gender roles

[@tritisan]

You do know that ALL traditional native societies have very strong gender roles. Sometimes even distinct languages. Do you think they’re all wrong?

[@mwesb1994]

You identify what is happening but failed horribly on the reasons why.

[@andreyb4142]

Think about who benefits from trashing young men? Hint: old rich men like young chicks.

[@CCMorgan]

Comparing Jordan Peterson to a misogynist like Andrew Tate shows true ignorance. Also, Jordan Peterson is not teaching people that it's the world's fault that they are suffering, he clearly states that it's their own fault that they're suffering.

[@MrMadalien]

Yeah lumping Liver King, Joe Rogan, JB Peterson and Andrew Tate all together is kind of crazy, two of those are lying criminals and the other 2 are simply great men.

[@LOSTfan420Locke]

Lmao both of you are delusional. They are exactly the same, they just use different language to get the same points across

[@minimcune]

Fellow man here. If you think she was saying that they were the SAME THING it is your ignorance friend that is most astounding. That was absolutely not the message I got on any level in the context of the video.

[@minimcune]

@@MrMadalien Great men? Really?? So many great men in the world, clever, articulate, kind, caring inspiring men. Those two are not it. Each of us entitled to think differently of course, but keep following guys like that and don't be surprised if things never, ever get better for you.

[@MrMadalien]

​@@minimcune Before I discovered Joe Rogan's podcast I was in my single mom's house, 19 years old, spending most of my time playing video games and watching porn, had no friends, was incredibly alone and was already starting to feel some health issues popping up because I was so sedentary, ate garbage food all day and had a rolling sleep schedule that would frequently have me awake at night and sleeping during the day. Basically I was doing everything wrong, and because I did not have any male figures around me except for occasionally my uncle who I would see every 2-3 years (he lived on another continent) there was no one to tell me that I was doing something wrong. I had 0 awareness of what I was doing. That year, both of my parents were diagnosed with cancer, my dad died from it, mom became chronically ill from that point on and I had to take care of her. I started to listen to Joe Rogan primarily because of the health/mental health related content especially the stuff with Rhonda Patrick and Jordan Peterson. I was hearing things that I had NEVER heard before. I started implementing things, I started feeling strong, and developed a kind of willpower. I felt healthier, I was reading more books in 1 month than I did in my entire life prior to that, I started to construct a direction for my life based on philosophy and core values. It was also a gateway to trying psychedelics, I grew my own psilocybin mushrooms and took them by myself, directed my experiences all by myself and learned SO MUCH. 8 years later I am earning 6 figures in the creative industry (my mom makes minimum wage and I have no inheritance from anyone), I have a large group of friends who I meet every week, in a loving long term relationship for 6 years. Of course things aren't perfect and I still have to do therapy to deal with the fucked up childhood I had, but the amount that I achieved is actually astounding. I even helped my mom buy a house with some land and I spent a couple years during covid doing small scale permaculture farming.. Sure I can't attribute it all just to 2 podcasters but I assure you they were both a huge part of that, because my life (and many other lives) lacked masculine figures. Masculinity comes in many many different forms and maybe it's sad that so many men are driven to the same forms of masculinity, but SOME form of masculinity is better than none at all. And with that I want to reiterate that both Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson are great men. Are they cliché at his point? Yes. But a cliché is a great starting point. It's like having some fertilizer for a plant. Would it be better if the earth the plant grew in was already naturally fertile with diverse microbiome and abundant nutrients? Of course. But since the earth the plant grew in was not fertile, the exogenous fertilizer is useful.

[@lyndonstucker6710]

Now do one where a man tells me all about femininity..

[@homosexualpanic]

There are plenty, mate! Just look for them, they're mostly shite

[@wingpaper]

you are a joke

[@cr2370]

Is this where we complain that she is womansplaining man problems?

[@steven_king]

So, I am incredibly grateful that you’re talking about this message. More people need to talk about it, or we’re all really in trouble. I agree (I think most rational men do) that there are some BAD influencers out there for men. I think Jordan Peterson gets lumped in there a lot, but I disagree that he should be. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find ANY clip of him speaking negatively about women. In that clip, he was talking about a major “women’s studies”...and specifically how feminism (and feminists) will actually watch a video like this and say something to the effect of: “Oh boo hoo...poor men, cry me a river...ALL men are bad, and it’s time for them to step aside.” ...and yes, that IS what those things teach. I’m a student at University of California and I hear it every single day. “Men are inherently bad, and we should inherently hate them.” I think we need to keep having these conversations, and I think Jordan Peterson is the best person doing the job...and he’s doing it in a very healthy way. It’s quite a lot more than just: “clean your room."

[@pexpix]

I really like and appreciate this perspective in a world full of voices against men. I am a couples therapist and something my mentor used to tell us in feminism studies was that in order to fight for women's emancipations/rights we do not have to take away men's. That would not be equality. Thank you for this thought-provoking video.

[@lesussie2237]

Masculinity can be whatever you want it to be. You don't have to follow what others did. You get to practice it in a way that fits *you*. Bonus points if you can benefit others too

[@CalicoCooperFan]

70%+ of divorces are initiated by women. The courts tend to favor women with greater tmcustody of the couple's children. I personally know of 5 divorces in my circle of friends and family. In 3 of the cases, the women had affairs and decided to divorce their husbands to pursue the men they were having affairs with. They refused to go to couples therapy. These kinds of situations create single parent homes. Children are cut off from access to their fathers. We need to address the divorce epidemic. I'm not saying end divorces, but people need to have a greater sense of commitment if they decide to bring children into the world and should try to improve relationships before dumping their child's father and moving on.

[@eon6274]

Perhaps one of the more delusional comments I've read on here LOL

[@kazeabby2400]

​@@eon6274​​ what has feminism done for men? If feminism really was about equality of both genders & not just prioritising women's issues even if it's a issue that majorly affects men, then men's right activism wouldn't need to exist.

[@MrAkura1984]

@@eon6274 He's actually right on spot. You need to divorce a ban woman and feel the discrimination in the courts to understand that.

[@michaelcarter5049]

Yes, there are many many single men of all ages living alone these days. I live in a rural community where there are scores of such men living in little corners where rent is cheap or zero. They appear to be fundamentally content. But, what of their female counterparts? They are alone too in the towns and cities. My only exposure to them is in supermarkets where the blunt end of our changed society is revealed. I see a new expression of femininity - frumpy looking women within the age group 30 to 50. Rings in their nose and tattoos that they will one day hate and are obviously childless. They look confused and so they should be. They got their liberation, to what? This? Who to blame? Happiness and contentment come from within. We are what we feel, which changes like the weather. “Take Courage and be a Man” was the moto of my secondary school. I constantly remind myself of this. It starts by not blaming others for this very difficult life. Every one of us is good at something. Follow that path. No, I am not being sanctimonious. I learnt 3 days ago that my wife has been having affairs. I am writing to remind myself of what really matters, and to heal. I am now one of those single men, and not ashamed of it. This masculine strait is a treasure guys. Be strong. You know what kind of father your children would want. Be that.

[@Takwygladapilaw]

Take care there buddy. Sad to hear it.

[@arresthillary9502]

you are the sucker that she trapped to pay for raising her children. men are sexual predators. women are financial predators. that is natural law(reality). For me I choose not to be a meal ticket to someone else.

[@jamesphan8306]

yea thinking like that is how your wife cheated on you with Chad

[@flobba123]

as a man this is what i want --> A Job. --> Friends.

[@Tommy1977777]

Now show me what comes next. Because if History is any indicator, it wont be pretty.

[@sarxot545]

Why wouldn't it?

[@mariochamorro1969]

... strong men bring good times ... good times bring weak men ... weak men bring bad times ... bad times make strong men ...

[@sarxot545]

@@mariochamorro1969 What do you mean by weak?

[@heisenburg2Vj18]

@@sarxot545 weak also means opposite of strong

[@sihasnesh2016]

@@mariochamorro1969 This is a really profound quote, but I fear that if the ones in power doesn't give a shit about men at all regardless of the party they represent, men eventually give up. God forbid, I really hope it doesn't happen though.

[@alfwok]

What I don't understand is if the male to female ratio is about 1 to 1 how are 34% of women single and 63% of men single? I would think that for every single man there would be a single woman. Are multiple women dating the same man or are there many more gay women? What's going on there?

[@samthesomniator]

Asked myself the same. 😂 Indeed there are studies that over 80% of women are indeed bisexual. But you would see lesbian couples all over the place. Not true. Also there are not that much women into polyamory to get to that results.

[@davide7708]

Because women 18-29 date oolder guys compared to them, while men don't have the same chance. And because a little group of few men, the ones perceived as attractive, go with many women.

[@andreyb4142]

Of course wealthy men dating several women. Are you in Kansas or what?

[@samthesomniator]

@@andreyb4142 you think a few dudes partner multiple chicks in a harem like situation? 😃 This is not the ottoman empire. Are you from Utah? 😂

[@wideningcarrot6]

Multiple women are dating the same man. It’s very normal now.

[@evadobreva5788]

I absolutely agree that this topic should be discussed although I wish that the masculine is no longer defined in comparison to the femininity but on its own. Finding the meaning of one’s life and identity is responsibility of every human being, weather man, woman or else…

[@Earl_E_Burd]

Why single out forecasters?

[@samthesomniator]

And what attributes should that be that define masculinity on its own? 🤔

[@av-sp1wo]

Masculinity and femininity are intertwined though. You cannot have one without the other or the person becomes "toxic" aka unbalanced. A leader has both of those traits in him/her, the masculine and the feminine. Has nothing to do with gender. Thinking and feeling are intertwined as well, you cannot have one without the other.

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@coolbreeze5683]

I agree. The same goes for femininity being defined on it's own without the comparison. We'll probably find that both men and women have a lot of overlap in what we all desire as humans and that being human in general is a spectrum. What most of us have in common is the basics of wanting the right to earn a living, to take care of ourselves and our families, to contribute to society, etc. No one should be shamed for showing emotions, empathy and compassion. The same way no one should seek to purposely do harm to others. It all sounds simple until ego is brought into the conversation, which is where many problems stem from. Maybe we as humans should focus on questioning and examining ego on our way to discovering a fulfilling life.

[@thomasschrader8272]

She seems to forget all of the societal discriminations that men face. Instead of acknowledging how society is geared to harm men, she places blame on the individual. "If men would just adopt a healthy masculinity we wouldn't have these issues". Thanks for the victim blame.

[@riffz6065]

Lovely. What better way to learn about masculinity being attacked than to hear it from a woman. Like she would know. Not to mention, she makes it sound like it's our own fault.

[@seaweedbrain2933]

Exactly

[@9usuck0]

This lady really came up here and said Jordan Peterson is telling men they're victims? Jordan bootstrap Peterson? Tell you have never listened to someone without telling me you haven't listened to them. F me, the ignorance in what shes saying with the confidence to make this video. Its like listening to a octopus talk about what birds go through.

[@9usuck0]

She is the proof that education doesn't mean smart. She seems to have done some research but landed miles from any actual accuracy to the point.

[@DeAguaMusic]

They can put a woman talking about men, but put a man talking about women's problems and see what happens. The hypocrisy.

[@user-fm5eh1fi5z]

that's not the biggest issue here

[@av-sp1wo]

Never seen self help books targeted to women? They're all (majority) written by men smh like they know how a woman should think and behave and heal, like they know how a woman is wired basically. That's hipocrisy in my opinion

[@joshuabanda1785]

She's a journalist merely reporting her findings

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@kazeabby2400]

​@@user-fm5eh1fi5zstill definitely a issue

[@NocturnalMissSo]

I wish folks would understand that when we talk about "toxic" masculinity, we're not talking about all masculinity. We're talking about a type of derogatory mindset that continues misogyny towards women and girls, which also encourages more gender based violence. But men and boys also suffer from this mindset, since misogyny also leads to men not valuing each others lives either. For example, my father was horribly abusive, but that abuse didn't just effect me and my mother. It affected my brother too. We all have lifelong PTSD from it. Men also dispose of each other at an alarming rate all over the world. So, we wish more men who are struggling would get therapy, or join a 12 step group, especially for anger and addiction issues. We know there are toxic and violent women out there too, but the continued misogyny towards women all over the world on many "red pill", MGTOW (and channels like those) just continues to feed the misogynistic mindset towards women, girls, and other men. So, sometimes the only choice for some women, is to pull alway from men for our own mental health and safety. Many women stop dating completely, because staying single makes many women feel safer. Many women also still get trapped in the "emotional support" role in many relationships, even after those relationships become verbally, mentally, or physically abusive. That is also one of the main reasons more women then men are filing for divorce. Once a woman starts to feel unsafe/unsupported in a relationship over time, eventually the only safe choice is to leave that relationship. We keep hoping that men will take better care of their own mental health, start (non-toxic) supportive mens groups, get clean and sober, etc, so that entire generations of boys and men don't feel lost. Women can't "fix" those issues for men. Society in general is less toxic and violent when everyone feels safe, and everyone has a purpose in their lives.

[@CoronaryArteryDisease.]

I am a young man. The young men who drop out of college or don’t go to college are not the same people who benefited from the patriarchy as it used to be. If they benefited from it, they would have higher career status, better employment, better education, and more control in divorce and other aspects of marriage and family. This is not the case now. Young men don’t want the patriarchy back. They just want to be treated with dignity. Much of patriarchy actually hurts men, believe it or not. They don’t want that. These young men are not CEOs. They are not as successful in businesses as they used to be. Men are often very negatively depicted in all types of media (of course someone will say that that doesn’t matter or say “but…”). Young men are almost never discriminating against women because of their status. Young men usually don’t have ANY status or very little status. The wage gap between young women and young men now is very small. Where we see the largest difference in wage gaps is for those who are much older. It is very narrow when you look at the newer and younger generations. The negative parts of patriarchy have been constantly pushed out of existence in the USA for a while now, which is a good thing (it is still there in some places, but not nearly how it used to be). My point is, people apply privilege to young men that does not exist in the way they think it does, and often it does not exist at all. To be a young man, and especially to be a low earning young man, is seen as undesirable in our society. Therefore, I don’t like her statements that imply that men are struggling because the patriarchy is not around to help them. Or even that it is something that young men want. Because these things are not true. We are having problems with culture being unhealthy towards families and forgetting about the value of a soul. This “Man issue” is not happening because the patriarchy is not as strong as it used to be in the USA. I don’t give a shit about patriarchy! I want to be seen as a human being. That is better than having lots of money or power.

[@Krunchtastic727]

Once you realize the "patriarchy" is the physical hand of a gyno centric social order things will make more sense for you. Unfortunately most feminist theories are heavily flawed and solopsistic at best. Expand your knowledge base outside feminism

[@colin__batman5934]

Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate even won the sex trafficking case, it's sad you didn't do the proper research into the court cases.

[@TechGamesAU]

I was waiting to hear what example they’d show of JP ‘speaking badly of women’ (knowing that he doesn’t) and when they finally got to the example it’s a clip of him talking about WOMEN’S STUDIES 😂🤦🏻‍♂️

[@steven_king]

Exactly...literally an example of him talking about people who “hate men for a living” and why that’s wrong...

[@forlucidlovers]

Society has failed to teach men and how to be respectful, empathetic, mature and useful people in the ways that we have forced women to be tolerant and deeply accountable for those that depend on us not only for physical survival but also for mental stability and emotional security. And expectations shift, so will the quality of both men and women. Only the strong in spirit and those willing to learn will continue to fill this earth.

[@comedyfriendsenglish]

I'm not saying men aren't in crisis, but I will say a few more positive and optimistic things now. (I am a 23 year old man myself so trust me when I say that I understand a lot of the issues). The shift in society is difficult, a lot of things are changing, dating life is changing with social media and dating apps, work life is changing with feminism, just like expectations of us as men is. Emotional maturity is valued more and more among people and I feel like lockdown contributed even more to people being more aware of their inner life. Sensitivity, openness, empathy, social skills etc. are more important than ever and almost necessary to live a normal healthy life. And a lot of men weren't exactly taught a lot of these skills when they were younger, or at least not to the extent that women were taught these skills. But we men are just as capable of them. With a changing society, the future might seem uncertain and confusing when it comes to which role we are supposed to fulfill. But I am optimistic that with a changing society, many new spots where men are needed, will come up. In fact I experienced that I am far closer with my male friends due to the shift in society, more vulnerable, more emotional, more connected and even hugging became more normal for me with male friends and not just with female friends. Think of things like ballroom dancing or choir. These are two examples where we as men are desperately needed... and I am sure there is much much more. We are not replacable, we are just simply not needed the same way we were needed before. When it comes to dating, women also feel conflicted oftentimes, just the other way round. Many women don't know what to expect from men and have way too high expectations, i.e. they also don't know their role anymore. The statistics provided in the video can be read like that too. When really what I learned through dating shows me that women, just like men, are really just looking for someone to truly connect with and who cares about them and who they can laugh with, cuddle with and share time with etc. Most women, from my experience, don't want a super swole, stoic, cold hearted, 7 figure earning man. And the ones who want such a man are going to end up as unhappy as the men who think that that's what all women want. Go out, be social, be kind to others and be okay with looking goofy or stupid while trying to find your place! I personally must say I don't feel much of the issues anymore that men are supposed to experience these days... By withdrawing from society you only really punish yourself ultimately. You miss out on life, not the others. Take care you guys, society needs you!

[@shreyaschavan8851]

You can't put Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan in one box ma'am.

[@davidbecquer3624]

For real what a fucking ridiculous comparison, trying to taint their image by putting them side to side with the worst examples of the manosphere. And she skipped like 10 of the most popular men that actually give very healthy advice.

[@eon6274]

They are all making the same points with just different words.

[@wowwar9048]

Masculinity influencers, each with it's own script of what a man should be. They pretty much fall in the same box

[@shreyaschavan8851]

Andrew Tate is an influencer, Dr Jordan Peterson has two bachelor's degrees in political science and psychology and a PhD in clinical psychology and Joe Rogan is an American UFC commentator, podcaster, comedian, actor, and former television host. All of them have different backgrounds and work in different fields. Their views on feminism and other topics are not completely identical. Their purpose in doing what they do is not the same. Dr Jordan Peterson addresses many issues for which he gives adequate analysis based on research as well as his own practice as a clinical psychologist. Joe Rogan has been podcasting since 2009, having had multiple world renowned experts in the field like Naval Ravikant, Elon Musk, Dr Andrew Huberman and so on. Please tell me how we can put them in the same box ?

[@MrAkura1984]

@@eon6274 No they're not. Try to listen to them for a change.

[@user-sm1jp4en9u]

So boxing the sexes doesn't happen when we tell men to be more feminine? As if feminity or being more like a woman is measure of being a good human. I personally don't believe in roles but boxing men in bad boxes is as common as boxing women into bad boxes.

[@oraz.]

The premise that it's a masculinity crisis at all is itself am underhanded double standard. I'm surprised so few people are critical of this. The premise is still that male outcomes are a result of an internal identity struggle. It's just being slightly rebranded from the original feminist rhetoric.

[@vivvpprof]

It's the same as in these alcoholic families. people only see the person drinking, and not the person enabling the drinker…

[@harrypcs]

The fact that you lump joe rogan and jordan peterson in with the likes of andrew tate, tells me everything I need to know about the rest of this video. It isn't empathy. Toxic amounts of misplaced empathy is exactly how we got here. It's discipline and leadership that men are attracted to. Weak men seekout empathy.

[@arielpreciado4311]

A female talking about issues and fixes of the male mind... With what other thing does this happen? A medical doctor telling astrophysicist how to research. Would you podium a Vegan to review steak house restaurants. Wtf is going on.

[@wnose]

Men aren't aware so women have to take the lead. The time of man is over.

[@nahilachowdhury1785]

Anyone can talk about sociology mate? If you’ve studied it and are well versed on it what’s the problem?

[@samthesomniator]

Ltrly everyone can sum up facts and get into this science. 🤨 Has nothing to do with your gender.

[@kazeabby2400]

​@@nahilachowdhury1785if the roles were reversed here, then maybe you would understand

[@alkismavridis1]

I think none of Tate, Rogan nor Peterson play the victimhood card. Needless to say that these 3 figures are VERY different from each other.

[@Lindsey_Lockwood]

This is actually the eerie silence before the storm. With the advent of AI girlfriends and realistic feeling TPE sex dolls we are most definitely looking at a continued decline in the interest of new male generations in dating, children, marriage if their needs are already met with no "strings" of feminism and date rape accusations attached. In around 20 years our birthrates will fall off a cliff. The current decline we are seeing right now will seem like the good times.

[@stevendunn2501]

As men (specifically as Black American men) we would be better served by completely disregarding what any woman has to say about masculinity.

[@pravanjugath]

Precisely

[@vivvpprof]

Spot on, bro 👍

[@Deibid02]

It was all great until the point of men being “on the internet” and the “manfluencers”. She not wrong tho, the world is changing and it’s not looking pretty for men. IMO there has been a change, impulsed mainly by women, and just noe they are beginning to understand that men are indeed needed in our society. But maybe now it’s too late

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@derrickogole]

Imagine judging the opposite gender according to what you've seen online. Imagine being preoccupied with titles, power, and positions. Imagine never enjoying your life because the world tells you what to think and feel. Imagine being desperate to be seen and accepted by people who don't like you or know you.

[@jojolouis]

your #2 and 4 seem to describe Trump!!😁

[@sigh905]

Immediately she pointed out the stats about women not being CEOs or how none have reached to be a president, and throwing the toxic word casually acting like she's an advocate of men. Really, this is what we are doing now? Women being expert about masculinity? Sure, let's talk about your period, shall we?

[@AnrchyKng]

One of the things that I haven't seen anyone really bring up is that traditional femininity has been demonised as much as masculinity in men. Its not that masculinity isnt being celebrated it is...but only when females display those traits. The identity crisis men feel is that we can't be praised publicly for acting in line within our instinctual nature which in a really fucked up way, feels like our identity was taken from us and now the world has stacked the deck so high in favour of women that theres fuck all point in trying to keep up and compete for most blokes. I'd argue that over 90% of men are pissed off with the system, with being silenced anytime one of us pipes up and then have our point deflected back to us and labelled misogynist. And thats why MGTOW has blown up. Why contribute to a society that doesnt appreciate you? Why trade your life for humanity when all you get is disrespect or are ignored? Its never been Men vs Women. Men LOVE women. Its Men vs The System and they de-fang us by chemical, societal and nutritional castration. And i feel sorry for the women who have been used and manipulated to be the weapon of this war

[@candyquahogmarshmallow8257]

As someone from Britain I hardly hear this (thankfully) but even if I did I certainly wouldn't change how I act just because there's a few rabid feminists complaining about how I act lol deal with it. Simple. Just because we're not self conscious or care about how we look, it doesn't mean we're "toxic". They'd love it if guys worried about how we looked as much as them. We don't. It's literally that simple.

[@TheOne1One1One1One]

She has some good points in the issue. But the main driver is social media and online dating. Women are on about 4 different apps so they don’t want to settle with too many options available

[@KungFuChess]

63% men say they're single... even if they are married 😂

[@lumintoluhur900]

it's appalling that a woman is talking 11 minutes about men and masculinity. try the other way around and see the response