The Disconnecting Earth Conductor Mystery - Why Do We Do This?

[@meuk6929]

Nice to see Efixx use the internationally renowned method of isolation on that switch. Piece of tape over it!

[@efixx]

😂 it’s just so we don’t switch on some older metal halide lamps - the screw up our camera 🎥

[@sstorholm]

Funny how they’ve managed to patent a star point measurement, a technology used everywhere on high voltage networks in star topology.

[@mfx1]

The patent is likely more about using it for this particular application, virtually all patents relly on and refer to existing technology.

[@lordjaashin]

@@mfx1 so i can use coca cola in ice cream and patent it?

[@Dranok1]

@@lordjaashin 'Fraid not, that one's already in the public domain ;-) (Besides, it's long established that you can't copyright recipes...)

[@MrNerdHair]

Something's wonky if you can patent following a regulation. It literally tells you what to do right in the text, but apparently no other company can now use that section of the regs?!?

[@Chris_In_Texas]

With our single split phase here in the USA, we don't even use the neutral conductor to the car, only L1/L2 connectors to make the 240VAC. Also Earth ground is also run out, which in reality is connected to neutral, but also has multiple local ground rods as well at each connection point at the house or business. In more modern builds we will also use UFER grounds in the foundations as well along with only water line grounds (no gas bonds as most gas lines under ground are plastic.) In the more modern EVSE equipment they also have ground fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) inside as well. That being said I have seen neutral that becomes lose or disconnected and can cause some very strange electrical behavior, where the two legs of the split phase will shift around, instead of 120V on each leg you might see 40V on one leg and 200V on the other. Then the grounding on the coax cable starts carrying current as well finding another path to ground. Its not a good situation for sure. Also we don't do any testing (like EICR) here in the states as well, so those ground rods could be in dry dirt and have a very high resistance as well. Our inspections by the local jurisdictions look over the install and point out any defects during installation that don't meet code, however no measurements are done and its all visual in nature. However as some of the other sparky channels on YT have pointed out it prevents the rogue installers for the most part if the inspector is good. Where as you don't have this 3rd party government inspections and have to take the word of the "competent installers" that everything is done to the code books. As I always say the building codes and regulations are a "D-" just one step above failing and there are so many ways you can go above and beyond and do things even better than code. Basically you don't have to make the CU look nice, there isn't any code that prevents a rats nest of installation, but pride in your work and ease of troubleshooting by the next guy sure makes it better to spend the time and do a nice neat job. 👍

[@efixx]

Great insight - what is the typical charger power you install on a 240V supply in the US?

[@Chris_In_Texas]

@@efixx With Tesla the biggest seller by far in the US and because of their proprietary connector here, we do mostly Tesla wall connectors. They run at 11.5KW @ 240V so we will typically install 60A breakers and either 6AWG (16mm2) or 4AWG (25mm2) to the charger depending on the distance to minimize voltage drop. The older Gen 1 wall connectors could supply 20KW @ 240V or 83A on the older model S with the dual onboard charger options. At that point we would use 100A breaker and 1AWG (50mm2) or 2AWG (35mm2). The Porsche Tycan uses 19.2KW as well single phase so again its a 100A breaker. Again the new Ford pickup will also be 19.2KW as well. All these are single phase 240VAC. Some of the other EV's use either 3.6KW or 7.2KW AC connections.

[@samuelseidel6148]

@@Chris_In_Texas Im also in the US, not an electrician, but heavy into electronics and heavy machinery. I’ve never heard of any device that disconnects earth in any context in the US. Super bizarre concept for me it makes some sense.

[@andrewallen9993]

Here in darkest Africa we have things called Meggers to test insulation and AVO meters to test resistances! That means installations can be tested for errors.

[@okaro6595]

True but the car is still connected to the grounding cable and it can get voltage if the neutral breaks. Sure it will get only at most 120 V and much less if the legs are reasonably balanced. In the UK it essentially gets 240 V on a single phase installation.

[@Faddnn]

PEN fault is an issue barely discussed here in Norway. All TN systems are 3-phase here and there is no specific regulation banning TN system or saying we can't use it unless "these requirements are met" . I've never really heard of an issue with the PEN, unless there has been work done and someone somehow forgot to connect the PEN, frying electronics and stuff, making the local DNO pay a heavy price on replacing all the broken equipment connected to the transformer. Every building requires a earth rod and pretty much every install having a TN system has one, so it would protect the user in some way.

[@efixx]

Think you summed up the issue we have - our buildings tend not to have earth rods on TN systems.

[@Faddnn]

@@efixx Anyway it is really interesting listening to, stuff like this doesn't really get mentioned in school here. No teacher I ever had mentioned that this was a good reason to install an earth rod. They would say it is installed for surge protection, even the guys making the regulations will state that. But I think it would be good to add that it should be installed for this secondary reason as well.

[@efixx]

The earth rod is going to be needed for battery storage systems also, as you cant rely upon the DNO's earth when operating in island mode. UK wiring regulations are being updated this Monday with new section for prosumer installations.

[@manyshnooks]

In Australia, we have the concept of "men" or multiple earthed neutrals where the neutral is earthed at redundant points from the service transformer to the customer, there's generally at least an intermediate earthing electrode on a pole somewhere on the run, and then all homes must have their own earth stake even though it's TNCS. Of course many older properties will have earth stakes that are no longer functional due to corrosion, and it's a silent failure as the earthing via the PEN is sufficient (where the supply neutral isn't broken!). The multiple earthing points also serves to ensure that any differences in potential over the up to 1km or so from the service transformer on the pole are averaged out and effectively a more or less averaged equipotential bond made. This serves to reduce the risk of a garage or other outbuilding having extraneous metal parts with sufficient difference in potential to be a hazard. Most outbuildings do not have a separate TT earthing system in Australia, unless they are semi rural and an extremely long distance from the main property.

[@Thermoelectric7]

@@manyshnooks Those old earth stakes are a ripper. Remember doing a switchboard upgrade once, earth "stake" was an old bit of galvanised pipe. Kicked it and what do you know, the only thing holding it there was the earth wire, rest of it had rusted away. Good times!

[@manganiphiri4331]

Interesting topic, five pole circuit breaker. Never thought they existed but makes sense when one watches the video. It would be disastrous if the fault current appears at the Electric vehicle.

[@efixx]

Indeed!

[@Stardustger]

this just seems like a really complicated and expensive way to not have to hammer a metal spike into the ground and just ground the terminal that way

[@CoolerQ]

What guarantees that the star point is at true earth potential? Isn't that relying on the ground electrode at the transformer being functional? And in that case, wouldn't that also be (one of) the ground rods supplying the incoming earth anyway?

[@alunroberts1439]

Used the 5 line isolation 15 years back with off sure power generation. But with short delay from the phase conductors then then N and last CPC what happened to the company is a mystery.

[@efixx]

Yeah that's the safest disconnection order.

[@alunroberts1439]

@@efixx was looking at EV charging as just finished my level 2. My thinking is all the safety is a bit OTT but regs are regs. There to keep us safe. And again in 2050 will the grid cope with all the new EVs. Or will we have random power cuts. Then the tax on the petrol and diesel will have to come from somewhere will smart chargers be tariffed at a different cost. Let's see in 20 years.

[@efixx]

By 2050 60% of power generation is expected to be at a local level - so massive changes ahead in terms of generation, storage and use of power. If you've got an hour to spare - we'd recommend this video by Tony Seba - kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJOWpaenjqmqfJI

[@alunroberts1439]

@@efixx Just watching over on your channel going over most of level 2 again even thow finished last exam and did pass can not just move on there is something you re look at and go woops I almost forgot that.

[@alunroberts1439]

@@efixx Just a quick one been testing some USB sockets some from a local B and M gave them 250 then 400 then 500 got to just on 1100V then I did kill it. Next week am going to try an do a video of meany brands. Some more expensive did die at 700v have you done tests on the cheep end to more expensive.

[@NikolaiBeier]

Should these 'PEN fault protective device' devices be constructed in a way that ensures that the protective earth wire gets a proper, solid connection *before* neutral and phases gets connected, when the switch/relay/contactor engages? I.e. as a good practice? Is the shown device made so? EDIT: I changed 'EVSE' to 'PEN fault protective device', after discovering I got answers below regarding EVSE and connected cars, instead of the servo-controlled MCB in the box from MATT:e. Sorry for the confusion.

[@efixx]

I believe so.

[@KJfourIPS]

My understanding is that they already do. The phases aren't connected until the EV calls for them, and it does that by presenting a specific resistance between the PE and the CP pins on the Type 2 (or J1772, that part is the same). The EVSE is also supposed to do a number of checks before actually applying phase.

[@NikolaiBeier]

@@KJfourIPS Yes, the cars do get the PE before the request is made for the neutral + phases to be connected to the 'type 2' connector. So the car will not know whether the EVSE got its PE/CPC connected before or at the same time as the phases

[@pauljones908]

I think he means a late break early make on the CPC. From looking at it I would say no as it only looks like a 5 pole MCB so all the conductors will be connected at the same time

[@NikolaiBeier]

@@pauljones908 Correct, although I wrote EVSE, I was thinking of the servo-controlled MCB in the 'PEN fault protective device' from MATT:e. I did not catch that writing error until now. I changed the text now.

[@haldo691]

so it's an LV version of NVD protection used on 33kv transformers and uses the star point to measure potential to Earth quite simple but clever

[@moshecohen5572]

Hello First of all, thank you very much for the detailed and interesting video. However, I have a small problem with the protection system you presented. In my opinion, when the grounding impedance is low enough, the protection will not detect a disconnection in the PEN conductor and no warning will be received. am I wrong?

[@patrickbishop4099]

I'm more interested in the green and yellow tape on the light switch above. Is that some old school safe isolation?

[@efixx]

It’s so we don’t switch on some older metal halide lamps which interfere with our camera 🎥 😂

[@christastic100]

Do they do the same for single phase supply? I think for single phase insulations there is a need for over voltage detection for loss of pen conductor when the balance of the load say on a housing estate courses some houses to experience high over voltage and some severe under voltage. Clearly it’s a similar situation for single phase as its fed of a three phase system regardless. I know some car changes have built in protection being added but how they work inside can be difficult to discover. Just to say very interesting vlog.

[@efixx]

Change to this coming up in the second amendment tomorrow. 😊

[@biaelectric9066]

0:50 - Prediction: The disconnection happens on the PME CPC where there is a local earth downstream. Answer: almost 😅

[@MrImATarget]

I like your main earthing terminal at the mains position. Have you got a link to where I can get one like that from. I also like your green and yellow isolating tape on the light switch ;-)

[@efixx]

We’ll find out where you can get the MET from - tape is available from all good wholesalers 😂

[@MoveingMetal]

Would I be correct in thinking that if the consumer was served with a HV supply and owned the supply transformer, thus rendering a PEN fault impossible. Then steps wouldn’t have to be taken protect against a PEN fault, as in a situation I looked at recently.

[@efixx]

That's a really interesting question Ross, I guess if there was zero chance of a PEN fault occurring then it wouldn't be be necessary. I'd have to have a look in the regs though. 😊

[@oiuslags]

I believe it can only be classed as a TNs system as only the DNO can supply PME

[@georgen.8027]

Only in the UK does plugging-in an EV mean dodging a multitude of exaggerated hazards... almost as scary as having a power point in the bathroom!

[@efixx]

😂 Big change in BS 7671 on sockets in bathrooms tomorrow. 😊

[@andrewallen9993]

If you have a South African invented earth leakage circuit breaker how can you be electrocuted after it????

[@stevejagger8602]

Ok for three phase, but in single phase domestic installations where is the true earth reference in the event of a PEN fault? No matter which of the current offerings you choose the earth reference is the person who touches the vehicle, unless there is an earth reference via rod or Condudisc( check out Team Electrical podcasts or Earthing Services in the UK) Also recommend watching John Wards video on EV charging.

[@thattoolguy9432]

Nice bit of kit .. be interested to know how regs would affect a building with an earth electrode built into the ring beam, surely then it wouldn't need pen fault protection?

[@efixx]

Wait until Amd 2 comes out!

[@robba1234]

@@efixx More money for the regulator $$

[@bourneelectricalable]

Am I right in assuming the steel wire armouring is not banjoed/piranha and bonded to the 5 core earth? Else it wouldn't switch the earth

[@Edgar-friendly.]

Does the device have it own BSEN standard yet, I was advised by NIC to to add comments to certs that they are non standard devices and may not have proof of compliance ?

[@dansheppard2965]

How balanced are three phases in domestic LV supplies these days? How long will they stay like that with people up and down the road plugging in EVs and solar coming in and out? I'm kinda wondering how earthy that earth reference really is in practice. Not that it will be up at >50V (probably) but it does seem unnecessarily complex to reason about compared to an earth rod near the drive, which just measures the actual thing to be measured. If they're non protective there's a lot less worry (in practice and, I think, in the regs) about proximity to other electrodes, form of bonding, etc. (Especially if electronics in the device can pull it up with a small pilot current via the CPC from-time-to-time to check for it going OC: I wonder if anything does that?)

[@G6EJD]

They use an artificial neutral but how can anyone patent something that’s been used for >50-years it’s such a well known method of determining a reference point from 3-phase supplies.

[@dansheppard2965]

@@G6EJD Is the artificial neutral anything other than the centre of a Y of the three phases? Or is it cleverer than that? If the phases are unbalanced, a simple Y-centre, then that won't necessarily match the potential of the physical earth. So there's a potentially a balance between not detecting PEN loss and nuisance trips. How big is that wiggle-room margin? I suppose if you had an MCU on each arm of the Y it could do something cleverer than just use the voltage at the centre, but it's starting to get complex at that point. Normally it could be worth the effort to avoid civils for the grounding but these charge points often come with extensive civils anyway.

[@G6EJD]

@@dansheppard2965 In the systems I’ve worked on the artificial neutral is derived simply by 3 star connected resistors so it’s always a vector sum of the 3-phases, then the system compares the artificial neutral with the real neutral that is affected by load currents, the technique is also used for earth measurements too.

[@cameroncloggie]

Is the charger mounting post connected to the PE cable supplying the charger?

[@temp06j723-pmeighttq]

No, it mustn't.

[@peterwright4224]

The PEN grid test should be part of a quality evse making this extra box not needed , constant pen testing is part of a good ICCPD granny charger

[@glennstephenson5747]

How does a single phase charger get it's reference point of Earth without all 3 phases?

[@andrewjames3908]

Can I ask a question please re 3 phase supplies. At 7:46 I can see the 3 DNO fuses are rated 100A. The neutral conductor looks the same guage wire as the L1/2/3. Does this mean even though there is a 100A limit on each line, you can only draw a total of 100A across all three. Surely if you drew 300A the neutral would be overloaded? Thanks

[@okaro6595]

The whole point of three phase is that if you draw 100 A on each there will be no current on the neutral. now 3x100 A would be huge supply.

[@andrewjames3908]

@@okaro6595 yes but i was referring to a 3 phasse supply but used for single phase circuits

[@deang5622]

Your question is unclear. I will explain a few things, some of which you might already know. Come back to me once you have read it if you have further questions. Point 1: On three phase you distribute the load across each of the three phases to neutral. If the load is equal on each of the three phases then the neutral current is zero. So if you place 3 loads, each of 23kW = 100A) one across each phase to neutral then the neutral current is zero. The current in each phase conductor is 100 Amps. Point 2: The other scenario to be considered is where all your single phase load is across one phase to neutral. So if you have multiple single.phase loads (or even a single load) of 23kW from one phase conductor (it doesn't matter which) to neutral and no other loads connected, then both the phase and neutral current is going to be 100 Amps. That scenario is unlikely to occur in practise as any electrician worth their salt knows about the concept of _3 phase balancing_ and won't do this. But uneven loading across the phases can happen over time as more loads are connected up. I have seen this happen in data centres. Good safe design of an electrical installation requires that you should not be able to cause a safety issue or outage by just plugging things in. So to ensure a safe installation, the wire cross sectional areas should cater for all possible scenarios. Using a CSA for the neutral line lower than the CSA for a phase conductor creates unnecessary risk.

[@josvandiepen3425]

A few remarks, The wire's between the main fuse and main switch (parallel wires 2.5mm2) are far too thin for 100 amps. The back panel is used as a earth conductor. This is never allowed.

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

Should have a nice little glass fuse ....

[@stevensmith4449]

Stopping all the energy in the battery melting the installations earthing system if it goes tits up?

[@zed.kelectrical8741]

Great presentation. Thanks to your whole team. Looking forward to the 'CPD' modules.. !! ✍ lol

[@rkan2]

So is this an alternative way to installing a Type B RCBO?

[@efixx]

No you still need to install a type B or A depending upon the charger. The C-TEK unit we installed has the full type B in the charger.

[@cezarvancea]

Why not run the lines and neutral through a contactor which would disconnect automatically on any PEN fault. Seems way easier, right?

[@efixx]

It’s the earth wire which becomes live so you have a dangerous voltage between earth(wire) and Earth 🌍

[@francescogugliuzza3827]

@@efixx disconnecting just the live and neutral lines won't make the dangerous voltage disappear anyway, since there is no electrical input anymore?

[@temp06j723-pmeighttq]

@francescogugliuzza3827 Remember that during a PEN fault, your property's MET is "energised" due to voltages from the interconnected PEN in the WHOLE of LV Network.

[@cezarvancea]

​@@efixx lines and neutral initially go into a contactor and from there on in the rest of the protections as usual. With the contactor in front, on pen faults, the contactor detects 0V between lives and neutral and automatically disconnects lives - therefore all circuits after the contactor will certainly NOT have live earth. The Pen faul monitor described in the video seems way way overengineering. Am I missing somenthing?

[@kpdvw]

would that be a ball point PEN?

[@efixx]

Boom 🥁

[@dougaltolan3017]

I know someone that would be much happier if a PEN fault detector had been part of thier installation: Triple whammy of PEN fault Serious water leak Broken kettle. The wood burning stove was live (it has back boiler so plumbing is earthed) and the floor was true Earth due to the flood. Not fatal this time.

[@Swwils]

Why do so few electricians know this?

[@efixx]

We're working on it! 😊

[@startoursg24t]

2 wires in a dubble ferrule, may only be 2 of the same size, in any other case, it would need to be connected to DIN-Rail clamps. Then there are wires that have ferrules on one end but not the other, multifiber wire should be crimped with a ferrule, and using wood as a mountingplate is certainly not allowed due to moisture that can accumulate in the wood, causing safty issues.

[@efixx]

We didn’t make the box that was the manufacture of the equipment. No issues with wood - it’s in a dry building and not in contact with any damp ground

[@KH-kl7qm]

Quick question and prepared to get gunned down, why can't you use isolated transformer to eliminate phase to earth?

[@efixx]

You can but this is a 44kW charger circuit so the transformer would be a chunky beast.

[@NikolaiBeier]

The CPC can become live like a phase wire, if a PEN gets broken, i.e. a 'PEN fault'. Not directly as if a phase wire touches a CPC directly, but from a phase via a normal load to neutral to the point where a neutral may be connected to a CPC *and* a PEN, where that PEN gets bad and restricts the normal, intended circuit Isolation transformers only works for the normally live wires (phases and neutral) that are meant to transfer power. The safety from earthing stems from a direct connection to literal earth, via the CPC (and perhaps a PEN). Earthing cannot go though an isolation transformer.

[@andrewallen9993]

As eFIXX says, chunky transformer = chunky lump of money. It would be more reliably safer than the electronics though.

[@synthwave7]

Will there be enough power when millions of vehicles are charged at home. Currently many countries can't even supply all of the power due to expansion etc.

[@HenryLoenwind]

Once you shut down the oil refineries that process gas and diesel, you already gain about 50% of the extra needed electricity. The next step is to use the money that's not left at the gas station but wired to the electricity companies to build new power plants.

[@andrewallen9993]

The answer to that one is absolutely not. Oh and Henry, the electricity that oil refineries use is generated on site usually from waste heat or by products that would otherwise have to be flared off. Refineries don't get the electricity they run in from the grid.

[@BaldurNorddahl]

Why is there no RCD in there? I know we do things differently here in Denmark but my house simply has the three phases and neutral. PE is connected to a local earth rod. We then have one or more RCD relays followed by fuses. In the case of an EV charger the RCD relay needs to approved to disconnect DC faults. That's all and seems to be much fewer components than shown in the video. If I understand PEN fault correctly, it is when the connection to the ground rod is broken and a we have a short between a phase/neutral and PE. This could put voltage on the chassis of devices. But the RCD would still disconnect as soon someone touches the chassis and hopefully before any harm is done. I understand that some older systems might not have a local earth rod but why not just put down one to avoid all that?

[@AliusScitmelius]

If you use TT earthing system in Denmark then the situation is different than using TN-C-S system. PEN fault protection is important if the combined PE and N (PEN) supply cable fails. In TT system PE and N are not connected to each other.

[@CoolSteve08]

Out of interest, what are the regs for installing your own Earth/ground spike and using it for surge protection for POE camera systems? Presumably you could not connect your own ground spike to the earth connection of your house wiring because in the event of a PEN fault between the street & the transformer, everything then goes through your spike & wiring thus potentially causing a fire? Are ground spikes going to be required for EV charging points now in the event that a fault occurs on the incoming supply so the house/charger are still "safe"? Also, (slightly off the topic of this video) if we are to phase out using gas boilers for heating & hot water, and instead use heat pumps, surely a single phase 100A supply is not going to be sufficient for heat pump(s), cooking and EV charging simultaneously (i.e. in winter)? So would a DNO allow an upgrade to 3-phase upon requesting an EV charger? I ask as we know someone who has a 100A single phase supply & is waiting on an EV. However they have been told before they can have the charger installed they need a different meter: because they also need 40A for electric heating for a conservatory, and combined with electric ovens, cooker & possibly shower(s), and the power needed for the EV charger, the meter needs to be upgraded to monitor current usage & limit the total to 100A by limiting what something can receive.

[@Thermoelectric7]

Not sure about your first comments, however in regards to the maximum demand with an EV charger, the easiest solution is to use an EV charger that measures your whole house power consumption. Set your supply fuse as the current limit, and the EVSE will adjust the current that the EV takes to ensure you don't blow the fuse. This is one of the better things to control as you typically won't care if it stops charging for an hour or two, or just limits its power consumption. Can't recall what channel I've seen them on but they're pretty commonplace from what I can tell. A lot cheaper than trying to upgrade to three phase as well, unless you're using 100A 24/7 (in which case the cost of an upgrade won't be an issue) it'll likely work just fine.

[@andrewallen9993]

And seeing as how the UK is close to having blackouts frequently at the moment where will the electricity come from as the French nukes are nearing eol?

[@greenpedal370]

Did a committee of electrical engineers recognise that possible fault or did someone get juiced up before anyone gave it a thought?

[@efixx]

Most H&S issues are driven by someone feeling the pain.

[@georgeharizanov6094]

Why the Pen fault protection is so important these days when it comes to EVs but nobody really talked about it when it comes to electric tools being used outdoors? Electric lawn mowers seem to be one such candidate. Why nobody asked us to have pen fault protection when operating them?

[@pipereed1]

Regulations 722.411.4.1: Electricians must not undertake a change of consumer unit while wearing a ginger merkin?

[@peterconnolly4608]

One must not forget when all these EV vehicles take over and less oil used ,what will the cost of the tyres be ?

[@efixx]

Plenty of oil still used for plastics - inc cable insulation 😀

[@peterconnolly4608]

@@efixx have to keep ere lite ,

[@raychambers3646]

I'm sticking to petrol ! Any chance of a ball park figure for how much all of this costs on top of my ev purchase ?

[@efixx]

This version is for commercial installs - so about £500

[@timburton1080]

Single phase residential solution is about the same as the last service cost on my petrol Mercedes. My Taycan only needs interior filter Y2 and then again plus brake fluid at Y4.

[@raychambers3646]

@@efixx thanks Mr fix.

[@raychambers3646]

@@Paul-ym4mz you know that feeling when the gauge says empty , ev must feel the same but someone can't pop out with a can of electric!

[@andrewallen9993]

@@raychambers3646 of course they can, the can of electric is contained in the 10kwh or larger LiFePo battery pack and three phase inverter combination in the boot OR in the diesel generator on the back of the trailer with the can of diesel in it 😁

[@tjwatts100]

2 comments: Why not keep it simple and provide a local TT system for the EV with a rod? Surely this is safer than trusting a lot of active electronics which may fail. And: I wish we continued to use TN-S. A much safer system. Or go the whole hog and mandate an earth rod at every premises with a TN-C-S supply?

[@efixx]

See latest changes to Uk Wiring regulations.

[@andrewallen9993]

Every day on average for about the last forty years I have had to repair at least two or three faulty electronic devices 😈

[@tjwatts100]

@@efixx I don't have a copy, but the question still stands. My Dad was an electrical engineer and occasionally asked to comment on the then IEE Wiring Regs. The fact a regulation is written one year does not make it immune from debate.

[@tjwatts100]

@@andrewallen9993 I was having this discussion with a sparky friend: The 17th's option to dispense with bathroom supplementary bonding if certain conditions were met. I'd chosen to go down that route with my bathroom - but he pointed out that it placed a lot of reliance on the RCD functioning correctly, whereas bonding was much less likely to fail. He had a point.

[@andrewallen9993]

@@tjwatts100 In my house there are two earth leakage circuit breakers ( Invented in South Africa by Fuchs Electronics, Mr. Fuchs was, of course, a registered plumber and drain layer) wired in series and tested regularly thus providing more fault tolerance than the avionics on a Boeing 737 max. A second earth bond is also a very good idea as you point out :)

[@arcadia1701e]

* black line conductor*.......

[@foxtanker4055]

So you EV has just cost you another 1000 or so. Well done.

[@efixx]

That’s the regulations for you!

[@tjwatts100]

So all of this ridiculous over complexity and safety reliance on active electronics all because: The suppliers cheaped out and stopped providing TN-S.

[@johngoard8272]

They should ban electric cars because they are unaffordable to most people and the state of having to keep them charged up is ridiculous especially if you live in a rural area like I do out here in Australia. Plus what do you do with the waste when they reach the end of their useful lives????

[@efixx]

End of the useful lives EVs can be recycled or batteries repurposed for solar PV storage. Thought you had lots of solar in Oz?

[@johngoard8272]

@@efixx Yes mate I suppose they can and yes there are plenty of solar homes out here - providing you can justify the cost. I live in a very rural town and having an electric car would not be a) within my budget and b) the lack of charging spots plus it would annoy the living hell out of me to have to wait for even half an hour for my electric car to get charged again. The distances out here are in my mind something that is far too great to contemplate having an electric car and as I said let alone afford one. My other gripe is that as and when the battery in the car has to be replaced the cost again is for me at least and I suspect many others prohibitive.

[@kuongsam2314]

That device is more expensive than an earth rod.

[@lansdorf]

Looks like hydrogen run cars are the future, also the cost of electric goes up again in October.

[@efixx]

How do we produce the hydrogen

[@lansdorf]

It's a vicious circle, were ready for a quantum leap in technology.

[@DasIllu]

I'm an electrician for many decades and this is in my opinion stupid Yes i an full confrontational about this. First off, never use silicon in devices that are meant to keep you alive. There is a reason why even the most advanced nations have laws against that. Secondly, disconnecting earth is not an insta-death sentence. the path for voraltage through an ciruit dictates the amount of har that could be done. Even in isolation class one you still aim to minimize risc. Please do learn more about electronics, especially if you are determined to spread information about said topic.

[@alanreynolds5985]

Sparks are as bad a gas engineers now. Part x dot thee of sub section five, revision 100234"……"…………