The Divine Debate: Is Morality Rooted in God? Atheist Stephen Law vs Matthew Su with Ruth Jackson

[@onionbelly_]

I like Ruth's impartiality as a moderator, but the debate feels more like a rushed 45 minute Q&A session where the speakers are invited to present surface-level answers to Ruth's multiple questions before the secondary school students have to go back to class. Would've been great if Stephen and Matthew actually exchanged arguments on a single topic, like in an actual debate.

[@hangyulcho]

Matthew SIIIIUUUUUUU 🐐

[@xenophanes4898]

That was a fun debate to participate in!

[@SockMonkeyofcourse]

Neither panel speaker convinced me to think differently...at all. Ineffective. They each could just say, "I can't prove any of this but if you llisten, you may be impressed with me"

[@xenophanes4898]

Limitations of the format, alas!

[@Max_Doubt]

"Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned." "Confess, my son." "I've been hanging out with a fellow I fear may be a bad influence. He says he can do whatever he wants to whoever he wants, any time, any place and in any way and no one is allowed to morally evaluate him." "Good heavens, my son! You should end this relationship right away!" "Thank you for your wise counsel, Father. I'll ditch Jesus immediately."

[@isaact3363]

An interesting summary of >40,000 words of text across the four gospels. You omitted that the sum of what you're claiming is unquestionable bravado (which is hard to reconcile with merely the first few chapters of John, where Jesus is repeatedly questioned by people. Indeed, He wants people to question, He's encouraging them to think beyond the aspects of the Old Testament they've memorised), is that Christ bowed to the Father, and died agonisingly on the cross that you might live. You'd struggle to find a dictat offering the same, they can't hold on to what they have successfully, He gave from His fullness what He didn't have too, willingly.

[@freshj6358]

Jesus can do whatever he wants. And you and I are lucky that what he wants if for us to be saved. Otherwise you would not be here talking down on God. And the idea that God is in control of EVERYTHING, AND IN POWER, is only repulsive to someone who is intent on rebellion. Those who love God , feel happy and safety from the same fact.

[@abudouglas9615]

People had moved from place to place all through history. Why did Abraham think that his move was different from any other person who had moved or was infact moving at that time? How did he figure out that it was a diety that was telling him to move?

[@HumbleBee123]

I'm seeking but find suffering and morality of God a struggle to understand.

[@johnhammond6423]

So how about all the other animals that suffer, billions of them over the years. They feel pain too.

[@isaact3363]

We see in Jonah 4:11 the mercy and care the Lord has for animals, withholding the just fire on the Assyrians for their bloodlust partly for the cause of the animals. Counterintuitively the sacrificial system in the Old Testament also displays love for these creatures. The evil of man has weight, it has consequence, this is how the sacrifice of an animal in atonement has any merit or value in the Old Covenant pre-the coming of Christ. But as bad stewards we welcomed death into the world, not just on ourselves, but on the animals too. The Old Covenant further embodies this, our evil requires the death of a creature that we would be made right with a righteous God. In Jesus' first coming He brings the sacrificial system to an end with the ultimate sacrifice of Himself on the cross, God bled for man, placing man at last in step with His God, as long as man recognises it. In His second, the birth pains of all of creation ends.

[@johnhammond6423]

@@isaact3363 _'the mercy and care the Lord has for animals'_ So that's why he drowned almost all of them in the flood of Noah. _'the sacrificial system in the Old Testament also displays love for these creatures'_ Yep, so much love for a goat that it had its neck sliced open and blead to death as a sacrifice to this God that loves animals. Makes perfect sense! [facepalm] _'we welcomed death into the world'_ You may have done if your that mentally sick, but I sure didn't! What a load of upper twaddle!

[@deshon3523]

Because humans vile destroyers of everything. We are simply not good.

[@maxsu6701]

Yo! That’s my cousin !!!

[@mowm88]

Red haired guy when asked about shoelaces describes the building of the factory they were made in..

[@greatminds9799]

Why do Atheists seems so internally angry and christians are usually so calm 🤔 it's incredible

[@Chidds]

Neither one appeared angry or aggressive. Both came across very well in terms of their temperament. Angry and aggressive advocates occupy both sides of the debate, as do those who appear more passionate and animated (sometimes confused with aggression because it can be perceived as intimidating).

[@johnhammond6423]

Your showing confirmation bias.

[@ShallowsPaul]

The only thing I got out of this conversation is that the atheist seems to want to try and understand things, while the religionist is happy not understanding things.

[@xenophanes4898]

That seems a very shallow take!

[@ShallowsPaul]

@@xenophanes4898 Your god didn't bless you with originality, did he!?

[@xenophanes4898]

@@ShallowsPaul when the Lord provides low-hanging fruit, you pluck it, haha. For the record, I'm all for understanding things. Faith, properly developed, is a fine aid in this regard: one doesn't abandon fruitful enquiry prematurely, and on the other hand one doesn't waste too much time with philosophical dead ends (like atheism).

[@ShallowsPaul]

@@xenophanes4898 Theism doesn't even allow for philosophy to be a thing - after all, philosophy deals with logic and reason in relation to reality. Low-hanging fruit is a perfect descriptor for accepting a thing that is passed on and accepted purely because of an adopted culture. Atheism isn't a belief system, so it doesn't allow for anything. Is it possible for you to say anything that has any relevance to reality?

[@xenophanes4898]

@ShallowsPaul on the contrary, logic and reason is methodologically theistic, since a fundamentally intelligible reality on which reason can be expected to have purchase must owe its existence to fundamental intelligence. The reduction to the unintelligent and the brute, that destroys the prospect of understanding, is classically a materialist manoeuvre. This has been realised since the earliest days of philosophy, as we see if we read old Plato. Adopted cultures are essential for us to make intellectual, spiritual and moral progress, and in that regard Christian culture has no rival. I am against coasting on a head start, but what a head start it is! You are right that atheism isn't a belief system. Unlike Christianity, I would class it as more of an intellectual and spiritual handicap that systematically prevents one from embracing the true, the good, and the beautiful. The Christian, by the grace of God, does not suffer such a fetter, and is therefore freer to speak to reality as it is, whereas atheism always ends up leaving important things out.

[@VaughanMcCue]

It is a natural transition from lawyer to apologist. Both guests wished they had brought their gaming phones to whittle away the time while the other dribbled nonsense. 25 minutes and departed.

[@BasedDialectics]

@APR4U calling other people ignorant while proposing a 7,000 year old earth. Amusing. I guess god just designed a world that looks old in every way to deceive everyone! Read some reputable geology books 👍🏻

[@Max_Doubt]

Atheist: "In my personal, _subjective_ moral view, it's _never_ moral to dump a 64 oz soda over a stranger's head just to be a bully. What does your 'objective' morality say?" Xian: "I agree, of course." Atheist: "My morality also says that it's _never_ moral to make two bears attack and rip apart 42 children for teasing a man about his bald head. What about you?" Xian: "No, I can't agree. God did that in the bible so for me to call that act _absolutely_ immoral would be to admit that God acted immorally, a strict Xian taboo." Atheist: "Would you like change your earlier answer about the soda or stick with your disgusting, deplorable, despicable moral priorities? Let's just cut to the chase: are there any acts you can call absolutely immoral?" Xian: "I guess there's just one: disobedience."

[@paulmillbank3617]

The question isn’t is there a God, because that’s unknowable. The question is why do people pretend they know God, what he likes and doesn’t like. People don’t believe in their religions even the zealots who truly study their religion. They spend a lot of energy convincing others that they believe and they insist so should everyone else, but not even they believe. They think they do, but they clearly don’t. They know intellectually that these are man’s words and divinity had nothing to do with writing these scriptures.

[@isaact3363]

And yet, atheist or theist, they all cry out to God when lost or in pain. Don't project your experience to me sir, The Lord is intimately knowable. Seek and you will find, ask and it will be given to you.

[@paulmillbank3617]

@ If you claim you believe why aren’t you at minimum living by the laws in the Bible? No premarital relations [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], offering homage to God on the sabbath [Exodus 20:8-11 & the 4th commandment], and give your life to spreading the message? If you believe your eternal salvation only requires you to claim belief and that you saved but you don’t need to follow any inconvenient law you’re badly mistaken.

[@APR4U]

Your idea of suffering is totally objective to their not being a God. Such ignorance in people that are supposed to be wise so foolish.

[@nameless-yd6ko]

Why would a good God allow suffering? ~~~ First problem; God is neither good nor bad; God transcends such mortal notions. Second problem; Your assumption that God fiddles with lives and the Universe is an impossibility. Is morality possible without divine authority? ~~~ Morality is the vain prideful act of judging people/things as 'good' and 'bad/evil'. "Divine authority" (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean) warns us against such vanity as 'morality'. The Saved/Enlightened certainly need none of it. And can secular ethics truly guide humanity? ~~~ I wouldn't know, if "truly guiding humanity" were more than a pipe dream, we'd all be living in Utopia by now! You realize that 'ethics' is not the same thing as 'morality'? Ethics is being Honorable, morality is the dirtyness of judging your neighbors. And no words of wisdom do anything for anyone other than the author selling books. There is no 'free-will/choice' to follow them or not!

[@APR4U]

Who has patience to listen to this fellow talk in circles? Faith is a gift from GOD. You can’t buy it explain it or earn it in any way. I believe in GOD and this world created about 7,000 years ago. In 6 days created. APR4U

[@trevornunn3285]

Heard about the Christian who had the faith of a mustard seed? He jumped off a cliff thinking he could fly....and went SPLAT

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

Faith is simply the excuse theists provide to believe in a fictional deity that doesn't merit _rational_ belief.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Before Jeesus wus invented, he didn't exist

[@viliaquasa9560]

Born not invented dont be stupid you cant write BC and AD in calendar for an imaginary person

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@viliaquasa9560 Do yourself a favour and go and investigate calendars, you might not sound as ignorant as you do. The Gregorian calendar we use today only came into effect in 1582. Engage brain before opening mouth, grasshopper

[@LisaBonn-gj5of]

Science proves which scientist deny that is God & His creation. The Word known as Jesus.)The Word the Bible & Jesus confirms His very creation & His existence Genesis 3:20 states Eve was the mother of all living. There is Scientific proof of this it’s referred as the Eve gene that we all descended from 1 women. Job 37:17 God ask Job can he determine the weight & balance of a cloud & determine how the rain can withhold the weight. Proof clouds can weight 1.1 mill. Lbs. Hebrews 11:3 states the world was made by the word that things we see are made of thing which are not visible. All creation including everything contains atoms referred to as matter ⚛️ they are invisible to the eye, rightfully so a million atom lined up side by side would amount to 0.039370079 Inches. It just proves He is all that matters in this world. Though we cannot see Him He is everywhere He is the creator of all. Collision1:17 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Isaiah. 1 Corinthians 45And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Corinthians 1:15 47The first man was of the earth, made of dust. Another of God’s claims proven by the periodic table but of course, first by God. We can only assume why these names are so closely connected adam atom. Was this by God’s Coincidence or divinely inspired . Only God knows His knowledge is beyond all. our Creator is most worthy of our praise!!!! ♥️All

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

Are you willing to answer a few straightforward questions concerning your comment?

[@someonesomeone25]

There is no morality.

[@trevornunn3285]

Philosophy: The art of sounding intellectual whilst talking utter BS. Matthew Su, a prime exponent

[@trevornunn3285]

@@hangyulcho You sound upset. Why?

[@hangyulcho]

@@trevornunn3285 because Portuguese players are slow to play the ball forward. Every time there was a one-touch forward pass on for Ronaldo, they'd just go sideways. Dunno what happens to Bernardo Silva when he puts on the Portugal jersey, so frustrating

[@onionbelly_]

​@@hangyulcho Hey man, I think we went to the same high school (랑기). You probably don't know who I am but I was friends with 의성.

[@hangyulcho]

@@onionbelly_ if onion belly is your real name, then yeh no idea who u are cuz haha

[@onionbelly_]

@@hangyulcho 승건 is my real name. Used to sometimes go to 주님의교회 with 의성 and I can't remember if you went there as well also. I think your mum and Uei Sung's mum were friends or something, I dunno.