The Doctor's Numbering Makes No Sense

[@DoccyWhoTime]

Just to address some comments I've seen I don't mention The Watcher, Valeyard, Curator or any future version of the Doctor, as we can't pinpoint what "number" each of these have. Giving them numbers would put assumptions on who would regenerate into them and where they fit in the timeline, and we just can't know that until if/when it happens. I completely forgot about the forced regeneration The Master causes on 13 though, so that's on me! As for anything else I've missed then blame The Doctor going back in time and changing history without me knowing. If you can understand the mavity of that situation.

[@thegrinningfrog]

Who can keep track of all this? Great video and I feel physically sick over what Chibnall has done. There is no respect there for the show.

[@xyreniaofcthrayn1195]

We skipping over 10 A: The jenny clone

[@billvolk4236]

Didn't they mention that the Valeyard was the actual 13th Doctor because he was out of regenerations, or at least believed he was? No matter how we number them, we're already past where we should have seen him.

[@ssjseifer]

​@@billvolk4236the Master supposed that the Valeyard came from the Doctor's future, specifically, "somewhere between his 13th and final regeneration"

[@ssjseifer]

You left out Peter Cushing. Also Rowan Atkinson, Hugh Grant, Richard Grant, Jim Broadbent, and Joanna Lumley. ;)

[@Dynamick65]

in the 60s the BBC had a "one-take" policy so that didn't help Hartnell

[@kainicholas2526]

Three mistake policy

[@Deltabolster]

Actually when I went back and watched some first doctor episodes it made me love him. The way he stutters and trips over his words was really endearing and made me appreciate those few episodes I watched

[@Dynamick65]

@@Deltabolster same yeah, he has that iconic yoda laugh too and he wishes everyone a merry christmas. Very endearing

[@Dynamick65]

@@kainicholas2526 I swear at one point in time it was a one take policy, due to the cost of physical film in Britain

[@TheBrotherGrim]

Ah, the Calculon rule. The Calculon rule states second takes are for amateurs. A big brain move by the BBC intended to draw in only the best actors I'm sure.

[@EditedAF987]

“I get the feeling that the numbering system breaks down after me.” -The 8th Doctor, _Once and Future: The Union_

[@JoelGrant-yo8b]

Before the Dark Times before The Chibnall.(yes I know this is a slightly altered Star Wars qoute)

[@williamcatala154]

Well, now the numbering is even more confusing because RTD just retconned the Shalka Doctor into existence in Rogue.

[@Jack-zz7bc]

I heard the description once that the timeless children is just the master giving a "you're adopted" PowerPoint

[@dousc7579]

Crying

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

That's the exact thing I tell myself to cope, that the master was lying to upset the doc, I also told myself Michelle Gomez was actually the Rani because they missed an opportunity there with her looking so similar to Kate O Hara but Moffat ruined that by having her meet John Simm. But you just use the "it was a lie or a dream" clause to get out of shit you don't like.

[@risky_busine55]

​@@JohnBloggs-m8lwhat was so wrong with missy? And why was it bad that she met the simm master?

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

@@risky_busine55 just my personal preference. I didn't agree with them sex changing time lords, I considered it a cheap gimmick and made no real sense in terms of their biology considering they already have males and females so when they did it with the master I told myself it was the Rani. But once Moffat had Michelle and John Simm together it made it harder to deny in my head that she wasn't the master though we never do see him regenerate into her but he would know if she was another time lord. Bottom line it ruined my head canon.

[@risky_busine55]

@@JohnBloggs-m8l wait so the shape changing aliens that can resurrect into new people are fine, but changing sex is where you draw the line?

[@jb888888888]

The twelve regenerations/thirteen faces rule was a cultural one not a biological one. Back in "The Five Doctors" the council of Gallifrey offered the Master a "new life cycle" of regenerations in return for helping the Doctor.

[@anita_daphne_]

the fact that hartnell had almost the same age as david tennant when the first season happened really shocked me i need to staring into space for at least 10 minutes now

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

Well the difference was Hartnell wasn't trying to still look 30 at 50 like Tennant is.

[@DavidProv]

Wait until you hear that Peter Capaldi was the same age as William Hartnall when he started his run as the 12th Doctor.

[@boulevard14]

Bill Hartnell acted and dressed older for the show.

[@Yetaxa]

@@boulevard14 That is so often forgotten. The role was specifically that of an older man. While he wasn't the youngest looking man, he still was made up to look older and deliberately played him older. Some of his forgetfulness was intentional.

[@pakimonsas]

@@JohnBloggs-m8ltrue, he was trying to look 70

[@conscienceaginBlackadder]

My line on the Morbius faces were they were the Doctor's dad. It keeps them as part of Doctor's past without being earlier faces of himself.

[@nicholastosoni707]

They were awkward fashion phases from his years at the Academy. You go through an 80s phase, a goth phase, a 90s grunge phase...Imagine that, but lasting 20+ years. "Morbius is winning. I'm out of incarnations...wait--Oh, cripes, there was my Wild Bill Hickock phase that lasted about three years...then the Egyptian phase, that was embarrassing. Still, good for something."

[@davidharding1299]

Since they appeared during the brain battle between Morbius and the Doctor... I always assumed they were previous incarnations of Morbius.

[@davidcrazyrides]

@@davidharding1299 they are old faces of moribus

[@Infernex_14]

On the wiki page about the "morbius doctors' it does speculate that it might be his father, but also him, It quotes an old book (i think?) that goes on about how the doctor is more of a cycle than linear and "Father becomes Son" idk how much still holds weight but yeah

[@stevedergamer5322]

@@Infernex_14 The fathe becomes the son? Does that mean, that the doctor is his own father? How does that work? Well... in Doctor Who, nothing is impossible 😅

[@rhodrage]

I'd argue the the regen energy given to Smiths doctor was indefinite, supported by Rassilon not knowing how many were given, meaning, TC wasn't even needed. Also the Doctor is a Gallifreyan timelord, we see they were Fobwatched into one, further meaning the stuff before hartnell still aren't important. Lets not forget about the Master Doctor, between 13 and 13....

[@handgun559]

Eh, Time Lords can just give out more energy. They had to do it for the Master before. I guess to them it's just like giving someone vitamins.

[@brobs0463]

I was also about to comment about Power of the Doctor’s ‘forced regeneration’ into the master doctor

[@davidcrazyrides]

Not to mention the ten doctor used Gallifreyan DNA to stop the Daleks in Manhattan so the time less child isnt cannon and 13 era is just a nightmare 12th Doctor is having

[@itsj35513]

please don't remind me of the master doctor

[@joshuasavage1128]

Don’t forget river also gave up her regenerations to save Matt’s doctor, it could be argued that he received another ten from that alone as we’d only seen two other incarnations of river….

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

What I LOVE from the timeless children arc (cuz it's not the only one that's timeless ;) ) there is that moment when Jodie escapes the Matrix by thinking of all the previous regenerations of the timeless child / Doctor... and she wishes BRENDAN the ginger was one too, so he appears. Jodie like Tennant "wanted to be ginger!"

[@kuggacouragegx6093]

So true. Maybe the final incarnation they become ginger

[@kdc-wy3su]

Small point of order(ing) The Meta Crisis Doctor does not count as a numbered Doctor, but rather branch from the 10th. However The event that saw 10 channel all that regeneration energy into the hand DID end the 10th Doctor, he regenerated into 10-too, so from that point on your re-ordering and re-numbering is correct.

[@Doctor_Glados]

Yes it does: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5m4q5WLodNqbtk

[@leont7956]

he's a clone that's part human

[@aaronjjacques]

You are forgetting the war doctor. The number are still screwed up the numbering.

[@jacobredfield1386]

May have been a "meta-crisis" Doctor that ended up becoming his own guy, but the Doctor still used a regeneration at that time, even if he averted changing by pouring the regen energy into the hand. So it still counts.

[@LordMooshroom]

If we are numbering doctors, meta crisis/tentoo aren't new incarnations of the doctor. Meta is a clone and tentoo is the same incarnation. Tennant didnt regenerate into himself, he used the regeneration energy to heal and inadvertently clone himself. It counts for number of regenerations in the same way that river giving eleven her remaining energy to heal him counts as ten regenerations.

[@thsalpha_4592]

You could argue the numbering is even worse than that if u take into account when 13 regenerates into the master then herself again and then into 14

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

Please don't remind me of chibnail era who, that has to be one of the stupidest stories I have watched of this show from any era. Just swapping places to no real end. Utterly devoid of any tension at all. This was the guy who famously sat there criticising Pip and Jane Baker on TV during 80s Who for its nonsense then proceeds to do the same amatuer hour story telling 40 years later himself.

[@theoutcastboi]

I mean, that argument doesn't hold much water, given the fact the Master Doctor didn't regenerate - it was a forced degeneration, essentially a reversal of that regeneration 13 experienced. Then again, given RTD later did a degeneration and marketed that as "The Fourteenth Doctor", you might as well say it was a regeneration, because apparently textbook degeneration counts as a regeneration now. 🙄

[@gferrol118]

Oh god I'd forgotten about that whole thing. Most of Chinballs episodes have been wiped from my memory

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

@@gferrol118 to be fair they're not all bad but if you'd told me chibnail would be the one to destroy the lore I wouldn't have believed you, Moffat or Davies sure, they ruined alot of who repeatedly (and Davies still is) but not chibnail.

[@wachyfanning]

@@theoutcastboi I mean, in the same way "de-evolution" is just evolution - as evolution has no direction, something can't 'de-evolve' - de-generation is effectively just regeneration. Traits may reappear in a species which had previously lost it in the same way The Doctor may take on a face that they had previously lost.

[@soarel325]

RTD is doing more interesting stuff with the Timeless Child concept now, at least

[@platypusnoise]

Can we just appreciate how great Hartnells role was even though we was suffering through that condition

[@video2000ification]

If we factor in "The timeless child", we don't know the exact number of incarnations of the doctor existed. To count the faces flashed on the screen is a stretch. There could've been more

[@TheMrturk1001]

There was more. Remember that the doctor was part of a program used to monitor planets... 1 as a policeman that regenerated as part of retirement into the watch fob and many more. That story arc around the timeless child was skipped completely.

[@Jansenbaker]

​@@TheMrturk1001The Master said it was a filter covering up the secret of the Timeless Child. An analogy, if you will.

[@quinnastaroth9989]

Hey :D I believe your numbering is not quite right and you might be a little bit wrong. 1. The BBC's numbering obviously refer to the Number of actors. 2. Since the Doctor's mind (or rather memories and part of their mind) is the only thing surviving regeneration, the question of seperating mind and body in the matter of identity is already answered when looking at the Doctor and/or Time Lords. Therefore the first doctor is still good old Bill. 3. (cont'd) The fact that the Fugitive Doctor also chose that name has no say in it, except maybe that a certain part of the Doctor that makes the Doctor the Doctor has always been there (which is not a new idea, since this concept has always been necessary). 4. (cont'd) All that also means that the Doctor is still an average Time Lord. They have been raised as one and they ran as one. Basically that bit of identity had been „stripped from him“ (though it hadn't). He still is the Doctor. It is rather a question of rootes. 5. I personally find it a little bit unfair to hold against Chris Chibnall that he didn't make this whole idea „affect the Doctor“, since it was the last arc and he basically held it ready as a present for the upcoming arcs, if even for his successors, which is (ironically) being well received. 6. (Just to sum things up) Doctor WHO has had always certain Plot Holes (though this might not be a good excample for one). But that never stopped it from producing magnificant wonders and magical horror. It is not the show, it is the people watching it. And people don't like it when their bedrock is being shaken. But that is rather a bad habit of them. Give them time and they might grow to love it. 7. (cont'd) It is your right to make such videos, but please be aware that in doing so you thrive on the hate and insecurity of the viewers and therefore even strengthen it and therefore hurt the show's potential in general (of course if you just did not know it any better, since I don't know you, just ignore the last bit, and I apologize for that bit). 8. This is no hate. I am merely trying to state my opinion, interact and make the world and/or platform of Doctor WHO a better place. Please have a magnificant day :D

[@soltandvinegar]

Thing is, I can’t remember the last time the show directly referenced the numbering. It’s more a marketing thing at this point. The Doctor’s number is just shorthand for any full time actor in the role

[@peterskrobola8753]

My interpretation of Matt Smith’s line in ‘The Time of the Doctor’ is that 10 used a regeneration but kept the same face and the Meta Crisis Doctor was just a weird clone thing from excess regeneration energy.

[@toyotatacoma1616]

I mean the direct numbering is very rarely addressed diegetically and mostly sticks to a branding thing. It’s for tracking the actors and incarnations that have led the show, not for pinpointing how many regenerations The Doctor has left, a number that has been effectively infinite since Name of the Doctor and arguably Lets Kill Hitler.

[@Elwaves2925]

Exactly, it's just a real world way of denoting the different actors and recastings. Some of them have numbers and some of them have names and they shouldn't be mixed, like the video above does. They have no bearing in-uinverse where all are known as the Doctor (except for Hurt).

[@oke4326]

Why was it made infinite in those episodes?

[@Saft-Lad]

and now it’s 34 doctors thanks to the new episode Rogue officially making Richard E. Grants incarnation canon

[@lord_egg]

Even disregarding all the timeless child stuff, in Power of the Doctor 13 is forced into regenerating into the Master. Then gets forced back by Yaz before dieing. So technically 14 (Tennant) is number 18.

[@WhovianDoot07]

Let's not forget that 11(actually 29) regenerated from his older self back to his younger self in "The Time of the Doctor", which would make 12 31, 13 32, 14 33, and 15 34

[@idle_speculation]

Honestly Doctor Who died when they made the incredibly disrespectful move of recasting the character of William Hartnell’s Doctor with some poser in a bow tie. RIP DOCTOR WHO 1963-1966 Just in case you couldn’t tell, this is satire

[@kuggacouragegx6093]

I was about to say cause there are ppl saying bs like that though

[@thenationaltimelyactionhou9328]

Chris Chibnall: *Breathes* Me: "HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!"

[@MarysSwagYouTubeChannel]

when i scrolled down after watching the video and saw it only has 315 views i was really surprised cause this video feels very well put together and clearly well reasearched, it definetly deserves more views :) Thank you for explaining the timeless child stuff and showing each doctor's lore accurate number if that story and its implications are considered canon, it was quite interesting to see

[@deadpooldan9862]

They’d still be 1-15 plus War, because those are the ones we follow. The other Doctors pre 1 might call themselves the Doctor, but they’re not the Doctor, kind of like how War is the Doctor but not a numbered Doctor.

[@TheL-vc4od]

Wait till he descovers that 14 or 32 sticks around

[@draksus]

It gets more complicated when you factor in the Doctor-Donna (created alongside the Meta-Crisis Doctor), the Doctor-Rose (born from Donna), the Doctor-Master (forced regeneration with a body-snatching twist), the Curator (the 4th Doctor 2.0), and the Valeyard (who was supposed to occur "... between your twelfth and final incarnation"). That makes 38 on screen incantations of the being known as the Doctor.

[@krunschnew]

I would say Docotr Donna and Doctor Rose are not countable in that regard. And yes I agree he forgott the Master Doctor and 13.2. I believe the Curator is a future incarnation of the non regenerated 14. Would fit nicely in the 50th special I think " revisiting some old favourites😉"

[@deer3481]

"I've had many faces I don't admit to" I remember this line being said when Clara jumped into the doctors timeline arc, (new fan) so I'm guessing they are somewhat cannon I believe Ruth falls between the 2nd and 3rd but is not the doctor because of what she did kinda like how the war doctor wasn't the doctor because of what he did

[@Hayden1969-ws4vy]

So where does Richard E. Grant fit in mow he's been shown on screen?

[@jb888888888]

Morbeus-Doctors don't contradict "previous stories [like this one from 'The Five Doctors']" because the Five Doctors was a later story.

[@Notachild325]

I say Hartnel is the first doctor Because he was the first cycle to refer to himself as the doctor

[@kuggacouragegx6093]

Exactly. Finally someone gets it

[@ciennathedreemurr]

Honestly I hope that RTD's second run has a way to clarify on the complete stupidity that Chibnall did. Even if it gets explained away as The Master implanting false memories, or the actions of The Toymaker messing with the Doctor's history, and that it has actually been Hartnell as the first Doctor, and Ruth is actually a result of Toymaker shenanigans. I'd much prefer THAT than just "Oh yeah no The Doctor is actually a special chosen one from another universe lmao". Would it feel cheap and like a rush to undo the cock-ups of the past? Probably. Would fans prefer that MASSIVELY over the alternative? I think so.

[@Everie]

What I love the most is that The Master always, ALWAYS, lies to the Doctor to destroy him So... yeah. For me, the Timeless Children, is, in fact, The Master. That'd explain a lot of things

[@Jansenbaker]

But Tecteun is real, and she confirms she found The Dr and raised them.

[@Everie]

@@Jansenbaker like if Tecteum didn't lie before to Thetasigma exsquared.

[@globalwarrior16]

I didnt even know that Meta Crisis Counted as a regeneration, considering he's half human

[@something1600]

It was said in Time of the Doctor that he counts.

[@austinchester2413]

Seeing Gallifrey destroyed literally 2 seasons after it came back with a single 2 parter pissed me off

[@bignumbers6228]

I think the numbering is far more important for doctor who's legacy than lore acuracy. So the only numbering I really have a problem with is the 14th. 14 only exists to be 10 again, and just for 3 episodes.

[@deadpooldan9862]

No, he exists to actually deal with the trauma the Doctor has experienced throughout their entire lives, and honestly, I’m surprised that intervention hasn’t happened sooner

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

He exists because not satisfied with replicating Tennant into another incarnation the first time Davies thought he'd just trot out the exact same shit again. It's ironic that a show people keep claiming is about change is now reduced to just regurgitating the same showrunner the same doctor and the same plotline again in the desperate hope of replicating the glory days of over a decade ago.

[@theoutcastboi]

I agree - I'm not a big fan of any of the secret hidden Doctors, but for me, that stuff is easy to look past/headcanon around. But "14" genuinely has ruined my enjoyment of the franchise - they're very obviously the 10th Doctor again - yeah, some slight changes, since they have additional memories, but that doesn't make them a new incarnation or a new Doctor. It's a textbook degeneration, and instead of treating it as that, as what it is, they're saying "huh dur, 10 counts as 14 too now, this is a full era, a proper new Doctor". Absolute rubbish, please, can someone in the BBC marketing department wake up and fix this nonsense before I lose my sanity?

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

@@theoutcastboi I'm just sick of Tennant, he's overstayed his welcome really. Previous doctors do come back but Tennant has the record for most returns in show (not counting big finish) and he is almost disturbingly obsessed with the show. Not only did he get a lead role in it he married the daughter of his favourite doctor and that's a little bit too weird for me. And Tennant's era while containing plenty of good eps and characterisation by Tennant contained alot of rott I hated like the romance and the trendy hair and the Converse sneakers, all the things this show wasn't about in it's old format. But that's as much about Davies as Tennant and though Davies got it back on the air it came at a cost and the cost was and now is Davies.

[@theoutcastboi]

@@JohnBloggs-m8l I don't hate Tennant or his Doctor, and I think calling him disturbingly obsessed is a bit rude - I know many people way more obsessed with the franchise. I do dislike him as "14", but it'd be the same if they brought back Paul McGann or Matt Smith or something to be "14". The real problem for me is trying to act like bringing back an old Doctor somehow makes an entirely new and distinct version of the character, which simply isn't true.

[@killjoy_ao4653]

I fucking love the 30th doctor's run. So underrated

[@Murrytmds]

It's worth mentioning maybe how much it also messed up one of the most important nu who characters. River Song. Her whole story is dependant on the time lords actually being made the way they were claimed to be, exposure to the time rift as a child.

[@jabbe3001]

Well, there is a possibility that the Doctor is just a humanoid exposed to the Time Vortex, and Tecteun just found a way to use Time Vortex energy in an injective syringe. This would make sense of River Songs proto-Time-Lord-ness, without contradicting anything we've seen in Doctor Who continuity this far.

[@jracqoon70]

The very first season in Chibnall's era (may he be tossed into a black hole) is a load of doggy donuts. If Russell T Davies doesn't somehow retcon it, then the series in my mind is dead. Side note as for the Valyard, it was a name given to The Doctor during the time war, and that I consider to be The War Doctor's place and Matt Smith WAS the final regeneration, after that, it's a whole new universe that just imploded.

[@something1600]

If the Doctor is the source of all regeneration then how did River Song get regenerations?

[@redactedusernameconfirmed]

Doctor who 'fans': "How dare they let daleks, cybermen and weeping angels keep coming back" *Chibnall: a villain who re-occured for pretty much the whole of the 13th (actually 31st)*

[@rhyswallace3590]

It seems Russell T Davis still is using the Timeless Child within the 15th Doctors era. And he also claims the Toymaker meddaled at least somewhat with the Doctors history. Now Bi generation is also a thing. So it's even more complicated. Is 14 now independent of 15 is 15 still a future version of the 14 doctor? What happens if 14 regenerates? It's all even more confusing and It didn't have to be. Davis could've fixed everything instead he's arguably made it worse.

[@RedAlertIt]

RTD making it extremely clear that fans should just stop trying to fix the timeline of doctor who.

[@katokianimation]

​@@RedAlertIt But keep bringing up the plotline that messes all up...

[@manyplural4265]

"fix" and "referencing" aren't the same word. he REFERENCES the plotlines. he isnt telling people they're fixed, in fact he's doing the opposite. he's keeping it all wibbly wobbly timey wimey, because otherwise one episode would just be all the shit Chibnal broke@@katokianimation

[@RedAlertIt]

@@katokianimation yes, and that's the right thing to do. You've got to "yes and" the previous guy's bullshit: ignoring it is not the solution. In fact, it causes more messes: just like when Chibnail thought it was stupid Moffat had brought back the timelords (which I also hated), but instead of rolling with it he just had the timelord all killed again, which made the whole thing even more stupid.

[@JohnBloggs-m8l]

At this point who gives a shit, this is the trouble with tv industry people they keep trying to adjust the lore to suit whatever they fancy doing at the time and then make it even more convoluted than it needs to be with no thought for the logic or accessibility of it. If they truly cared about the show they would've left Hartnell as the original guy, ditched meta crisis which was just Davies pulling a cheap stunt for women who loved Tennant, left the war doctor out as hurt was only asked because Moffat asked Eccleston to come back for the 60th and he said no and not start stupid shit like Davies is now doing with the doctor splits in half so yet another version of Tennant can live on. It's just garbage now if you don't adhere to some sort of rule with the biology of this character then there's no stakes and thus no tension, no drama and no point to watching the character anymore.

[@SamButler22]

"This is where it gets a little complicated", you could have complicated it with the Valeyard, the Watcher, the faces seen in Brain of Morbius, I don't know why I' going backwards... and I'm sure you'll get to those if I carry on watching

[@SamButler22]

No Watcher or Valeyard though

[@SamButler22]

The Curator

[@anton_mykhalchuk]

Now shalka doctor is canon

[@cdub31613]

I appreciate the first two thirds of this video. This video almost got to the point of how Moffat turned David Tennant into the Every Doctor.

[@joaquinwaters1810]

It’s simple from a real world perspective: you’re a numbered Doctor if you officially led the show for any period of time…even if that was just for three specials (14) or one TV movie (8).

[@SirSX3]

Cartmel himself disapproves of the Timeless Child and says that this is NOT the Cartmel Masterplan.

[@kuggacouragegx6093]

Stop lying

[@Hawk0820]

Watching this video made me more confused about the whole timeless child thing

[@timrob12]

13:12 - And this is why I don't blame Chibnall, because someone else already did it first. AND HIS NAME IS BABELCOLOUR AND IT WAS A FOUR PART SERIES CALLED THE TEN DOCTORS!

[@AiRsTrIkExXzZ]

The 6th doctor died to carrot juice Also the master as the timeless child would’ve been a lot better considering it would give him a better reason as to why he destroyed gallifrey himself, it would explain why the master has some sort of deep rooted anger and vengeance since a part would remember what the time lords did to him.

[@hawkbirdtree3660]

"You either die young, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" 🤣

[@TheAnnyParker]

Technically we've seen at least 34 doctors, if you count the Curator

[@philtiger68]

That was so good. I never thought of the doctors regenerations like that and quite frankly I don't care. Let's just get on with it.

[@Tomspence97]

Always love learning more about Dr who

[@rnw2739]

You learnt nothing here, simply one fans nonsensical opinion.

[@Crillikin]

And then it'll potentially all get thrown around again with the Toymaker's quote "I made a jigsaw out of your history"

[@Reginald425]

About 2:42, I’m pretty sure that the Doctor wasn’t canonically an alien until the *end* of Troughton’s tenure, but rather a human from far into the future. I think regeneration wasn’t created due to him being an alien, but due to some magical pseudoscientific explanation regarding the TARDIS.

[@rowanthursday5860]

It could make sense with Lungbarrow factored in- if the Doctor is not "The Timeless Child" per se, but is (at least partially) a *reincarnation* of the Timeless Child. If the Timeless Child, better known as the other, were the alien entity brought to Gallifrey by Tecteun and reverse engineered to create regenerative ability, thereby enabling Rassilon to sidestep the Pythia's curse. This strange, shapeshifting unearthly child later, seeking to avoid the hostile attentions of Rassilon and the Division, then sealed their genetic material and memories inside the Loom of the House of Lungbarrow, leaving everyone to assume they had committed suicide by throwing themselves in. In practice, however, instead, the other regenerated, and with her memories mostly lost, was found by a time traveller from the future, with whom she felt a strong mutual kinship- that time traveller being the first incarnation of a Time Lord born from the Loom of Lungbarrow and bearing the subconscious memories and biodata inheritance of the Timeless Child itself.

[@olived9560]

Yeah, reincarnated looming is how I've been headcanoning it too - it keeps it canon (it's being continuously referenced in rtd2 as well so it's not being ignored/disregarded like 8's comment/the opening of the Eye of Harmony using his eyes) but seems less of a drastic backstory change + makes the 'special'ness a bit less glaring (it's still there but it's more like the Doctor just *happened* to be reloomed like that, they in their current incarnation aren't the reason behind Time Lord society etc).

[@TheVikingCarnotaur]

PLOT TWIST: actually there’s 198 different doctors before that little girl fell off the cliff that we just didn’t know about

[@andrew_owens7680]

I once shared a taxi with the Ruth Doctor. No wait, that was Doctor Ruth!

[@Oldmanplum]

Theres actually even more complications youve missed out. A big one being the Valeyard who is supposed "between the 12th and final regeneration" While now being heavily contradicted by NuWho, the valeyard was dirrectively referenced as one of the names of the doctor during Matt Smith's era. Then theres also the Curator (an unknown future incarnation), Dr Moon (envisioned as the 45th and final incarnation of the Doctor by Moffat but never explicitly made canon), and a whole slew of expanded media doctors

[@TheFiddleFaddle]

I lol'd heartily when RTD doubled down on The Timeless Child. I'm certainly not going to defend Chibnall, but also this is Doctor Who. All the lore is a contrivance.

[@DragonDub]

And don't even forget the special agent doctor in one of these flashbacks, where his consciousness was deleted after he fulfilled his job.

[@Jansenbaker]

"Brandon" was a cover filter to hide the Timeless Child story as a nobody on Earth. It was part of what The Master said. He broke past that, and found the truth.

[@jonyprepperisrael60]

"I made a jigsaw out of your history,did you like it?" I presonaly believe it was the retcon of the retcon

[@friendlyotaku9525]

It is not, Russell has said he isn't retconning anything.

[@Killerfin100]

Russel said that line is to be taken to mean that the Doctor's origins are audience determined :)

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@@Killerfin100 except in the very next episode the Doctor talks about how they were abandoned and adopted so that doesn't hold much water.

[@mudkipmaster42]

@@friendlyotaku9525 I believe it's just a way to explain the inconstistancies and rectons in the show, like how the Fugitive Doctor has a Police box Tardis, even though they come before Hartnell.

[@bobdallas4860]

​@friendlyotaku9525 Except it does, if the Toymaker interferred with the Doctor's history, then it can be assumed that the TTC retcon was his doing too.

[@nat6639]

it honestly feels like a massive logical disconnect for most of this video to be ranting about how chibnall and nuwho fucked up the numberings while simultaneously bringing up the morbius doctors but then trying to pin that on chibnall as well and i really just don't understand why like genuinely, there isn't that much that the timeless child story arc changes other than your own personal headcanons and once again, brain of morbius was canon since it aired, nothing contradicted or retconned it, y'all just decided to ignore it and then got mad that the show didn't

[@friendlyotaku9525]

Exactly, thank you!!

[@theoncomingstorm7903]

Morbius revisionism is really annoying me these days. Especially since the Forgotten Lives charity anthologies made me a fan of those guys.

[@yoongobongo2289]

cant wait for rtd era II to retcon the retcon

[@TheRealUnkn0wn_289]

Season 6b is the second doctor getting sent on missions for the timelords before getting made to regenerate into 3 after the night walkers comic, the fugitive doctor can not fit there, 3 walks out of the tardis wearing 2s clothes and has the same tardis console, 2 regenerates into 3 Metacrisis is not the doctor, the tenth doctor would be 10 and 11, however it was 10 healing himself and then giving away/wasting/using up the regeneration energy, meaning he didn't actually regenerate, metacrisis is a seperate entity, and 10 is still 10, there was no regeneration/incarnation, he wasted a possible incarnation to stay the same, he's still just 10 and 11 is still 11

[@craigcharlesworth1538]

It makes perfect sense IF you stop thinking of it as numbering the fictional incarnations of the character and only think of it as numbering the changes of lead actor in the show.

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

Then it’s 33 doctor

[@Jansenbaker]

​@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec "Lead" actor, not every actor.

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

@@Jansenbaker We are counting the unnamed number

[@Jansenbaker]

@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec Yes, when we want to count how many faces have been shown, sure, we can count 30-something faces. But for keeping track of the main ones, 1-15 works (for now). Those are the lead actors. Everything else, from an audience view, is an actor we see for a short time or have brief glimpses of. Hartnell was still the first because it was the start of this version of the character. Whatever happened before that, it doesn't really affect the current lineup. They are another group. We had this idea that the Dr only had 13 lives, but when you inevitably hit the end point, that was always going to be extended in some way. This show seems set to continue for maybe another 20-50 years. Yes, Capaldi's start of a new set was a good answer, and was even ambiguous. But it would've come to a point eventually. Regardless of the negatives, this new background actually adds to the lore more than "We extended the Dr's life a third time" in 2050 or something. Capaldi's new set couldn't really be infinite on its own. Rassilon only said the exact number was unknown, not forever. Sorry for the long reply.

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

@@Jansenbaker Still 1000 regeneration is still pretty long

[@CJFS00s]

( 18:11 ) Also in Wild Blue Yonder, RTD had a whole scene about The Flux and The Timeless Child, leading to 14 slamming a wall! 👍🏻

[@viscountalpha]

Wait, you mean a non-linear, time traveler makes no sense when put into a linear form? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!!

[@Jane-ow7sr]

Aw what a cute jab. Look guys we found a Chris fan. Disgusting

[@demigod1014]

FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT

[@TheNinjakat2010]

never forget the "chosen one" is the companion in any way you look at it.

[@deadpooldan9862]

Yeah, as Amy pointed out, the Doctor keeps his companions around specifically to keep him from going off the deep end, and as we’ve seen multiple times, that’s a good thing. Especially given 11”s “Good men don’t need rules” line, and we’ve seen how far the Doctor can go when 12 tried to save Clara

[@TheNinjakat2010]

@@deadpooldan9862 shame most of them die in someway

[@Twillek1019_]

Ignoring the timeless child we have: 1, to 8, then 8 regenerates into the War Doctor, but the war doctor says “doctor no more” so he doesn’t classify himself as the Doctor. The “9th” or rather 10th regeneration takes the title as the 9th Doctor because he’s the 9th one to call himself the Doctor. Then we got 10th(11) 11th(12). Then the new regeneration cycle begins with the 12th(13) yada yada up til now with the new 15th(16) Doctor. The Doctor isn’t the person, rather he who takes the name. Also Meta Crisis Doctor shouldn’t really count as it stated he’s actually human. You could argue that meta crisis is 10.5 though.

[@sbi168]

I don't get the issue with chibs and the whole pre hartnel docs. It doesn't make the doc any more special than they already are as they are not in charge of their power. Chibs is clearly not the best writer (moffat is) but I had allot of fun in his era and I like the timeless child. It really opens up the universe to even more possibilities. It doesn't disrespect hartnel. It's such a random arguement. Doctor who lore is always just made up as it went along . Who cares, have fun with it!

[@kuggacouragegx6093]

Omg thank u for this comment cause it feels like everyone is reaching with that to hate on him and the story yet never had a legit reason. But were ok with when moffat did almost the same thing

[@akiro9635]

Hartnell was the first to carry the mantle name of the doctor the doctor is not his name if we ever find out his true name then all those regenrations would make sense hartnell is just the first person to call him self the doctor

[@Leon_Tyler]

"I made a jigsaw out of your history... Did you like it?" I.e the toymaker fucked with his past, that is why nothing makes sense anymore. It could be the reason why, the flux allowing the toymaker to enter the universe and meddle with the doctor after he lost his game. It's an explanation that didn't need to happen if chibnall had actually considered what the fandom might think to rewriting the entire history of doctor who and the fandom being like "yeah, Hartnell isn't the first". Watching back the old episodes, the timeless child makes even less sense, but the toymaker theory is the best we have to explain that essentially at this point he wasn't the timeless child at all.

[@faerieknight2298]

... Wait, the explanation given was "The Doctor is actually an extra-dimensional alien and the only one that can regenerate"?! That is... stupid. And it throws out established canonical facts of the series.

[@redactedusernameconfirmed]

I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, the doctor could/can regenerate (and supposedly the mystery race that the doctor belongs to) until that woman used her to make all gallifreyans able to regenerate, which made it so 1. Time lords 2. The mystery race the doctor belongs to 3. The doctor Can regenerate, but what do you mean when you say that? (I might just be stupid, but I would like to know what you mean)

[@gwenthomas2530]

also in rogue, the shalka doctor wwas shown as a previous version of the docrtor so there are actually 34

[@floatinjellies]

I don’t really like the reading of pre-Hartnell doctors existence as disrespect. They don’t matter because the 13th Doctor made the decision to accept their existences, but to not reclaim their memories. The 1st doctor will always be the 1st doctor.

[@krunschnew]

You forgott regenerations from 13 to 14. There was 13 yes, force regrnerated (9 to War was also a forced one through the drink the Sisters gave 9) to Master-Doctor, than regenerated back to 13 before regenerating to 14.

[@platypusnoise]

I don't think Doctor Who should have a single showrunner. Idk if it's just a Modern Who thing or if Classic was as decisive. Each showrunner had made some kind of massive controversy retcon. Obviously Timeless Child, Moffat through Clara in The Doctor time stream, now the bi-regeneration. When you have a single runner they can implement their stupid head canon and fan theories

[@AlienIOIandroktone]

I'd be fine with the Chibnall Retcons if a) Ruth was a later mindwiped 2.5th/season 6B Doctor somehow given an extra regeneration (or maybe the potion the Eighth Doctor War took gave him one), and b) the oldest one of the Morbius Doctors fell into a loom, and popped out as Baby William Hartnell as a native Gallifreyan (who don't naturally have regeneration) only to later go onto becoming a Time Lord, escaping in a TARDIS that gets disguised as a police box, etc. That way you get all the pre-Hartnell lore intended to put the WHO back into the character, but for all intents and purposes, that Timeless Child gets re-woven genetically into a Gallifreyan, and there's no actual change to the lore of the Lambert to Moffat eras because it would've happened the exact same as if Hartnell's Doctor was born naturally.

[@handgun559]

I think I hate this more.

[@friendlyotaku9525]

Aside from the Ruth stuff you mentioned and the "Loom" that IS what happened, this is actually explained - The Doctor had their memory wiped and was turned back into a child, the same child who ended up going to the Academy, becoming a Time Lord and becoming William Hartnell's Doctor. This is part of the text.

[@handgun559]

@@friendlyotaku9525 that's also bad tho

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@@handgun559 nah, it makes sense.

[@handgun559]

@@friendlyotaku9525 no no no, you misunderstood. It certainly "makes sense." Like, it works, logistically. It technically retcons the story in a way that doesn't create a contradiction. Their memory was wiped. So technically, they never knew the wiser. That's not the issue here. That's BAD writing. It's not contradictory; it's just bad. It takes a lot to explain why it sits wrong with a reader, but the longer this gets, the less likely an online reader is to read all of what I say so, it's below if you're interested - It undoes established lore, and while that's annoying in its own right, theres also the ever present feeling that the writers didn't to "make their mark" on the series, or just to pull an ol Shamalan-Twist on us. It makes the Doctor more special, and more connected, in a way they didn't need to be, and in a way that doesn't actually serve a purpose. It's just a fact. A cool fact the authors wanted to establish at the cost of world building, because now, wtf is even real. If we can undo something as basic as who the Doctor is, then what means anything anymore? The next writer could just as easily be like, every TARDIS is the hivemind of some Time God, and that's why they love the Timeless God Child so much. They're both time goooooods woooooah! And it really, REALLY serves no purpose going forward. WhAT does this mean. SerIouSly?! How does this impact the story? does the Doctor even care?

[@ladymecha8718]

Your forgetting a Chipnall Doctor who episode with a doctor who working for the galleyfrey secret time agents as if it was World War Two.

[@badgerforrest-blincoe2879]

I was going to comment the exact same thing. Glad someone else noticed that

[@TheRealUnkn0wn_289]

He wasn't real, he was an illusion in the doctor's mind, for some reason, making him think he was brendan on earth to mind control him to do their bidding or something, to think he was fighting the war instead of doing the bidding of the agency

[@TheValeyard1430]

the way i see the numbering system for doctor who, as a life long whovian, i see the numbering system more as a guide to help the audience, you have never heard the doctor really refer to him self as a number, [unless you are counting Eleven's regeneration explanation on Trensalore at the end] but even back in classic who we had what is referred to as the Morbius Doctors, played by George Gallaccio, Robert Holmes, Graeme Harper, Douglas Camfield, Philip Hinchcliffe, Christopher Baker, Robert Banks Stewart, Christopher Barry, no one had an issue with them. I personally didnt like the timeless child arc. but ignoring the whole ''not a time lord'' bull crap, having more incarnations out there isnt uncommon, and it can sometimes work well, the reason why people had so much issue with the fugitive doctor as a character was because even though it was meant to be before hartnell, you actually saw their TARDIS and it didnt make sense seen as the exterior was a police box, instead of a TT-capsule,

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

the Chibnall era is better when listened to then when watched. Some great moments are worth a watch. But listen to it (mostly flux) and it gets even better than before. NOT SARCASTIC. Message from my heart as a previously Jodie-hater. ChinBAlls did us worse than she did UNDER HIS DIRECTIONS! :P

[@lozD83]

"Go over, show's home"

[@SirsasthNigam.]

War is 9th After which its 10-1 11-1 ....

[@matthewhegarty2873]

It’s also worth noting that the 6th Doctor had a proper regeneration story on Big Finish! His performances on Big Finish in general are very very good

[@ThatGuyCalledSteeve]

Now add in bi-generation and Russell T Davies' comment on how every doctor bi-generated and this numbering gets even more complex

[@TheRealUnkn0wn_289]

There's also the valeyard and the 2 curators played by tom baker and colin baker

[@ConorKelleher]

This is a really great video. Production value is crazy - love the glitchy editing style - really unique. Subbed 💙

[@DoccyWhoTime]

Thanks so much!

[@davidrgilson]

I kind of wish the video had been made after the 60th anniversary as things are even MORE confusing now

[@joecandora9748]

You have it totally wrong. The meta crisis doctor is not an incarnation. The incarnation is the Doctor before and after “Stolen Earth “

[@crucialaccount]

I've been thinking about this for a long time... Glad to know others have been thinking even harder!

[@pompombogor]

No love for or mention of the six Doctors you missed: Peter Cushing (OG Movie Doctor), Rowan Atkinson (The Doctor), Richard E. Grant (The Quite Handsome Doctor), Jim Broadbent (The Shy Doctor), Hugh Grant (The Handsome Doctor) and Joanna Lumley (The Female Doctor)? 🤣

[@lant7123]

Makes perfect sense. The numbers are just for the ones we experience. Fugitive doesn't count. War doesn't count. Metacrisis doesn't count. The limit is what makes no sense. Give them infinite regens.

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

Then why don’t the doctor help everybody? Death be meaningless

[@megalodon2k2]

There's also the one from curse of fatal death and the Shakla doctor.

[@EwanDavidson-xs5fg]

There are ways you can explain it away and keep all all versions.

[@Acknowledgerofdoctorwho]

Brain of morbius came out before the five doctors right?

[@kuggacouragegx6093]

Yes. It was a 4th doctor story where they literally stated they were the doctor

[@robertshannon8357]

There's at least one incarnation shown on screen missing from this. An old man forced to regenerate if I'm remembering it correctly

[@charleslee8313]

This was my (convoluted) logic behind the number issue: Rassilon, Omega, and some other high-level members of Gallifreyan society found out the truth -- all Time Lords/Ladies can regenerate 12 times, but the Doctor can regenerate CONSTANTLY. Add to that the fact that the Doctor is *unfathomably* intelligent, and has access to a machine that can travel time and space, and these high-level members had a problem. They now had a super intelligent immortal god who can go anywhere and do anything, at any time. They felt that they had to humble the Doctor. They did, by successfully lying to the Doctor, and now he/she thinks that there are only 12 regenerations, just like the rest of the population of Gallifrey. Near the end of the "13th life," the Doctor comes home, and dies; Omega (or someone else) alters the Doctor's mind, and he completely forgets the 13 lives that came before, and now the Doctor -- whoever he/she turns out to be -- starts all over again with number 1. This could explain why the Doctor couldn't remember "Ruth," or any other incarnation that came before the Hartnell Doctor. As for the buried TARDIS by that lighthouse... I have no idea.

[@51918]

A friend once asked me to tell him about Doctor Who. I asked him what he wanted to know. "How many Doctors are there?" "That's complicated." "How is that complicated it's just counting?!"