The Double No Problem and Autism

[@lonlon58]

Its taken so much time for me to learn that many neurotypical people perceive an explanation as suspicious and an excuse or as a signal that I'm open to negotiate. For me receiving an explanation makes me want to stick to the other person's needs more, and it always hurt my feelings even worse when someone ignored or pushed past my explanation. Its just one of those things where i have to keep in mind that my own experience just doesnt translate for some people.

[@vanessarohrer2747]

Hi Holly, I just found your channel today and I'm so glad because this exact thing is one of my biggest problems as someone who has lived in "fawn" my entire adulthood. The first no is already almost impossible because I feel like I have to have a "good enough" reason. The second no? Forget about it, I'm losing my mind at that point. I actually had my doctor write it in my accommodations not to do a double ask because it's such a problem in my career (not that I've had the guts to actually give those to my employer yet.) But anyway, I have recently realized something that I think will help: We give those detailed answers because WE need them, so we think it's the right thing to do. Turns out, NT people (and some ND people, really anyone on the "asker" end of the asker-guesser dichotomy) see your reason as the start of a negotiation. I once declined to pick up an extra shift because my car needed repaired, and my scheduler at the time responded by OFFERING TO HAVE AN UBER TAKE ME THE HOUR DRIVE BOTH WAYS TO THE CLIENT. I had a complete meltdown at work, called my mama, asked if that was supposed to be normal human behavior, it just really blew my mind. So I have started trying really hard to simply say "no, I'm not available," or even "no thank you! 😊" Basically how you've described your second no. They can't argue a point if you don't give them anything to argue. I know it feels so weird and wrong not to explain, but no one is entitled to that explanation if they are going to use it to take advantage of you. I have observed that the second ask is common, but it doesn't make it right. Trying to push past someone's no IS manipulative, and unfortunately we are more susceptible to such behavior than neurotypical folks.

[@FinnySpam]

this resonated with me. thank you for sharing this with me, i appreciate you.

[@Whimsy_and_Dreams]

Oof i've had to work on this one too. I feel the need to explain myself and greatly appreciate it when others do, but most people don't see it that way. It's seen as negotiation, excuse giving, or making a thing about one's self (right or not, who can say). No is a full sentence!

[@electromagneticuniverse2361]

Incredibly helpful information. Thank you for your shared feedback. Great channel and wonderfully insightful content @hollyoddly

[@PatchworkDragon]

If it makes you feel any better, I would have had a meltdown at that point, too. I hate the "your reason is not good enough" push back.

[@ThisisPam]

So true about Christmas and holidays. We were always expected to travel to family with our kids, and we did it. Every time. Even through 10 or 12 hours of scary snowy highways filled with accidents. Now as someone who could be a grandmother myself (turning 50) I cannot imagine expecting that of my own kids. And the double No? I need to learn this!! I always cave and say yes eventually. Thinking someone is unhappy with me is too painful. Love your channel!

[@hollyoddly]

Right?! My son is 22 now, and if he ever gets married and has kids, I would never do that to him. It makes no sense. I know how you feel! The double no is SO HARD! I can be such a pushover, but at the end of the day I can't give anything to anyone if I have nothing left.

[@juliesmith6228]

Ahh! I think I've spotted why they push back. Neurotypicals DON'T give an explanation. They state >>no

[@VitriolicVermillion]

something i've felt is that if ever i try to give an explanation, i'm suddenly right back in my childhood, talking to an adult authority figure who is looking for a reason to punish me, when i know i didn't do anything wrong, but i am powerless to avoid the consequences of being misunderstood. there's my audhd cptsd story! one of them, anyway.

[@juliesmith6228]

My hubby was also autistic & he had it down perfect... he used, "No... THANKS!" With a smile and a wave. 👋🙂 Super friendly, but already gone vibe! It was a reflex he had trained himself to do it on cue. Sometimes he'd be 😮 actually that could have been okay but that was usually later

[@heedmydemands]

Well I gotta say I'm right there with u, also a big time fawner. The tact of just giving people what they want works not great but then when u have a kid even more complicated

[@hollyoddly]

I can totally relate! You are not alone.

[@elizabethgschwind]

Wow, I was so surprised when I heard your example of the Christmas travel situation because that is exactly what I am going through! And it's the reason I clicked on your video because I have been stressing about telling my parents. I'm so glad you made this video and shared your experience. I have spent years wishing we didn't have to go and visit family for the holidays for all the same reasons you mentioned, and because my husband doesn't get time off work around Xmas other than public holidays so we really only have Christmas day and boxing day together as a family (3 kids). We always end up giving in. But this year I can feel it in my body. My body is saying a hard no. I just can't, I won't. But of course, try telling my family that. Thank you for explaining that saying no twice is normal! I will come prepared to my phone call with my parents. Thank you!

[@Pixelifications]

Hi! I don't know how I found your video, but I enjoyed the topic and the way you explained it. Thanks!

[@hollyoddly]

Thank you so much!

[@donagaleta]

When you said "don't be a Holly" I almost cryed 🥹. It also happens to me. People is so annoying 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@hollyoddly]

It's hard when people push past boundaries!

[@joeminella5315]

Thanks, Holly. 👍👍👍👍👍

[@cnoor30]

Wow great topic! I get panic as soon as someone doesn’t hear my first no. And or dissociate and don’t realise til much later that I did say no and they ignored that… Why do we have to say no twice tho? I didn’t get that part exactly Thank you 😊😊😊

[@PatchworkDragon]

I have a hard enough saying no the first time. If it's something I can feasibly accommodate, I will almost always say yes. So when I do say no, and then I get push back, it feels like a direct challenge. I will explain WHY it's a no if the reasons are tangible, but I've given up trying to explain and defend my mental health needs. What I learned (through practice) is that "No, thank you," is a full sentence. "I'm sorry, it's still a hard no," works if someone tries to wiggle around it. And if they STILL don't get the hint, I tell them "no means no" and leave the conversation (or move to the next topic).

[@MichaelaWalter-hp9hr]

Hi Holly, I really like your explanations. I can totally relate to that Christmas example. It took me 50 years to understand that I have to say no twice. And I'm NT.

[@vancoke10001]

The secont no has to be short,or ignore the person,if it was a person you desided to never meet again.

[@hollyoddly]

Yes, true! If you are to never meet again, that is a great response!

[@vancoke10001]

@@hollyoddly Thank you,and so important to set bouneries,and know who is your friends or not..But allso family and everyone else.

[@juliesmith6228]

*Gentle hug* 💝

[@karolinaska6836]

I have a hard time telling my kids no. It's always tentative so they have picked up on this and take advantage. But I can't blame them. I need to be clear about my boundaries.

[@karolinaska6836]

I often assume I must not have made myself clear with the first no if someone is pushing back. Or worse, I assume I shouldn't have did no in the first place, and they're giving me an opportunity to save face. I know. I've got work to do on personal boundaries.

[@spacefacecadet]

Lol NTs hate explanations and reasons. Hell, I bet the well-meaning ones might genuinely think we're asking for help problem solving the barrier. I agree that giving as little information as humanly possible is best. You don't have a doctor's appointment, or relative in town, or tickets to a show you bought two years in advance, you are simply _unavailable._

[@pardalote]

But why do they do this? Did your therapist explain it to you? It doesn't make any sense unless they just don't care about your boundaries.

[@VitriolicVermillion]

Maybe it's that. Maybe it's that NT people tend to probe for whether something is an important/firm no through weird, subtle means. Our broader society is an authoritarian one, and many of our interactions happen through that lens, where many people seek to assert their will upon others, because it is so normalized within the whole dog-eat-dog rat race thing. It might be part of the NT survival/subsistence strategy, where our outsiderness makes that seem very foreign and cruel to us. It could explain some of how our society is structured. I could just be wrong, though.

[@lesliegann2737]

@@VitriolicVermillion I've had similar thoughts. I also think there is a low grade dysfunction in a lot of society. These families aren't necessarily full on toxic, but they pass on certain dysfunctional qualities to their children. For example, one thing I notice a lot from people of all ages, is how they tend to be self centered and inconsiderate. It is like no one has taught them about playing fair and developing empathy.

[@spacefacecadet]

Best case scenario they might think you're problem solving together to get the job done? That by stating the nature of the barrier, you're saying you'd otherwise be totally up for it, so if they can remove the barrier, you're good to go. But typically yeah, I think it's just people taking advantage, not respecting our needs, etc.

[@VitriolicVermillion]

@@lesliegann2737 as Americans (if that's you, too) we don't exactly see anyone model diplomacy at the highest levels, y'know?

[@lesliegann2737]

@@VitriolicVermillion For some reason my comment isn't here and I forget exactly what I said in it. Most weird, I wouldn't have said anything in it to get deleted. But anyway as to your reply, I'm Canadian.

[@karolinaska6836]

This is me with rules. I can't follow stupid rules. I need it to make sense, and then I can process, internalize, and let go.