The Dreaded "Cross Controlled" Stall

[@flyingfox8360]

My CFI wanted to see turning stalls and cross control stalls immediately, not because they're specific to training, but because it built confidence in learning to reattach the wing to the relative wind! Awesome video.

[@SAFEPilots]

Thank you. I did this demonstration at my flight school with every pilot headed to the practice area. They have to be comfortable with "stall series" first. They the CFI demonstrates coordinated turning stalls (in the PPL ACS) and no spin (very docile). CFI asks "So when will a plane spin?" the inevitable answer is "cross-controlled!" But *ONLY* if it is cross-controlled in a *SKID!* In a slip it is stable!

[@cramersclassics]

This should be part of all CFI training!

[@redbird444]

The PA-28 is a very stall resistant aircraft in most aerodynamic flight regimes and control applications. The same demo in a typical Cessna will produce more dramatic results. The underlying theme of a spin requiring not just a full stall, but also yaw is valid though and coordinated turns and in some aircraft cross-controlling don’t provide enough yaw to induce a spin like most Pipers.

[@SAFEPilots]

With 21K hours (16K dual given) I have demonstrated this in every brand of trainer with the same results! It is *very* important here to have the power at idle. If you suddenly add power (accelerate wind over the rudder) this will spin "over the top" - toward the high wing! Attend our (free) webinar on Nov 17th for more illumination! bit.ly/SAFE-ProLive

[@arthurbrumagem3844]

I enjoy flying my Archer ,it is so docile. But over the numbers I better have speed under control as that tapered wing will float

[@arip9234]

@@SAFEPilotsvery educating

[@coriscotupi]

@@arthurbrumagem3844 I flew about 1K hours in an Archer. Loved every minute of it, the most docile airplane I ever flew.

[@arthurbrumagem3844]

@ it certainly makes my landing skills look good 😂 , as long as I can control the float down the runway that is.

[@paulrichardson6804]

Superb demo…should be in all instruction to clarify what is needed to spin, and teach student importance of coordination

[@SAFEPilots]

This is video was shot for our Extended Envelope Webinar coming up on Nov. 17th: bit.ly/SAFE-ProLive so I did not include what a full stall in a skid looks like. I used to do this with every student at our school though. A C-152 does a really cute snap roll (horizontal spin). Also a great demo!

[@neriksen]

A Cherokee has a forgiving wing with its nice dihedral but a Cessna won’t be so forgiving. In any case, what you teach is so important and yet not taught enough. ✅👍🏻

[@SAFEPilots]

I have been itching for a day to take a C-152 up and film this demo (equally docile!) Critical point is understanding the difference between a slip and a skid! bit.ly/SAFE-CC

[@aprilfox2302]

Hi David, I really appreciate all you do for SAFE. I think the stall in the video in a coordinated turn is very informative and helpful. I think you are being a bit misleading regarding the response of an aircraft to a cross controlled stall. They can appear to be relative benign in a training aircraft like a PA28 with limited elevator authority and power off during a very well controlled execution as you demonstrated. However, an aircraft can depart controlled flight in a hurry if the air is rough or the yoke is moved very abruptly or if the turn is generating a significant g loading when stalled while cross controlled. The type aircraft makes a big difference as well. Try them in a Mooney, or Bonanza and you will experience a much more stimulating experience.

[@SAFEPilots]

Agreed! "Stimulating experience" indeed! The next video will show how "exciting" a skidding turn can be when brought to a stall. The purpose here is to create an understanding about the aerodynamics of slips and skids and how different they are. Ignorance can be fatal (I had a new-hire CFI demonstrate a skid to land - he *thought* he was "slipping!") bit.ly/SAFE-CC

[@igclapp]

Some planes will spin when stalled in a slip, so be careful never to assume a spin cannot occur in that situation.

[@birds_eye_view]

@@igclapp When you have different lift (by airspeed or angle of attack over the wings) one will loose first and starts to drop. So when not corrected you get a spin. But in a slip that stalling wing is up and you have still a chance to recover before your plane turns you upside down. In a skidding turn, the lower wing looses first and starts to drop. You will have no time at all to prevent the rollover.

[@igclapp]

​@@birds_eye_viewI agree you might have more time to recover from a slipping stall, but the problem is that a lot of people won't be expecting it because they don't think it can happen and they might delay recovery or even freeze up and leave the controls in the pro-spin condition. Have you seen this video (I will post the link separately)?

[@igclapp]

​@@birds_eye_view kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6evqamEpb-ZiJYsi=dlr4Gn94O9xL2IHH

[@birds_eye_view]

@@igclapp I agree. In general one should not go so close to the envelope, if one does not know exactly what to do, what to expect and also know the airplane.

[@jimmccloud3089]

A slip has rudder all the way in one direction or another. This guy is talking about coordinated flight, ball in the center

[@birds_eye_view]

Good demo. Also on slip, a maneuver I do almost for every landing because no flaps or spoilers on my Cub. But what I'm wondering is what about the overbanking tendency in slow flight? Used for instance in Lazy 8 figure. Because of the turn the outer wing will have more airflow than the inner. I would have thought, if pulled all the way to the stall, even coordinated, it will stall on the lower wing first and roll over? Like it will in a skidding turn. But of course then there is a much bigger difference in airspeed between the wings.

[@SAFEPilots]

When I talk before a crowd, someone always brings up that argument. I assume there must be a *little* more lift on the "faster wing," but in a level/stable (coordinated) turn, the plane will happily fly "hands off" without rolling if you trim it up level: lift *must be equal (or it would be rolling)! The only "active" control in a turn is the elevator (see Rich Stowell's "Learn to Turn")

[@birds_eye_view]

@@SAFEPilots Still puzzled. Both things are real and happening. But I'm having a hard time figuring out why. What is different? In Lazy8 you fly coordinated too, but you don't correct the rolling when pulling up. When executed perfectly you do not move the stick at all after the initial input. It's in the middle and slightly pulled. Only rudder to stay coordinated. Nevertheless the plane will keep rolling, indicating more lift on the upper/outer wing. So if speed would get too slow, the inner wing should stall first. Right? In the other maneuver you are in a coordinated turn. Using the rudder to stay coordinated. When you now pull up, I would think, you have to correct the overbanking. with ailerons? But if you do that, the inner/lower wing would have the higher angle of attack and would stall first (usually not recommended to use aileron control in very slow flight). So the other option would be to correct the overbanking with rudder input to the outside, which would make it a slipping turn. Both wings would have the same lift again and stall evenly. But is that still coordinated? When you look at 0:57 - the ball is not center. Your are in a slipping turn.

[@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq]

Know the five undesirable effects of a turn! These are more amphiliid in a glider due to the longer wings. I have flown aircraft that will spin out of a steep banked heavily loaded turn. The two aircraft that I have flown that readily do this are a North American T-6 and a 2-32. Keep pulling into the buffet on either and they will depart.

[@goneflying140]

Cherokees are so stable. Great demonstration. To spin it in the turn, you would put the ball on the same side as the turn, creating a skid. That would probably make it spin.

[@EarthAmbassador]

Ball on outside=skid

[@SAFEPilots]

That will *definitely* make it spin. The point here is exactly what you say: slip is stable (step on the high wing, ball is low). In a skid you combine the force of the roll with yaw and this is a "pro-spin" configuration!!😳

[@petepeterson5337]

It is possible to inadvertently enter a spin in a Cherokee. Happily in my experience when I was a student with an instructor in the plane, it is pretty easy to quickly break the stall/spin, but until then, it is surprising how quickly that docile plane can whip around.

[@SAFEPilots]

Agreed. Any plane can spin if you abuse it enough. Important here to demo high and also no one in the back. PA-28 famous for flat spin (CG aft).

[@artificialhorizons1469]

Fantastic demo. Thank you!

[@SAFEPilots]

Thanks!

[@richardgreen7811]

Nothing, in a turn ... My CFI (1973) and my FAA Examiner (the infamous Larry Bartlett / El Paso) put me into every conceivable unusual attitude. Hated them initially, but soon learned that I developed so much confidence I really didn't care (which was their goal). "What doesn't kill you will make you stronger". Larry Bartlett became my roll model. A really great guy.

[@SAFEPilots]

You are a lucky guy! Too many pilots just fly in their limited "comfort zone" of 1G straight and level. If/when they experience an upset they have no "recovery tools" to save themselves! SAFE has developed an "Extended Envelope Training" for GA pilots (EET is required now for the airlines) bit.ly/EEM-121

[@JB_Hobbies]

Wow, I did not realize that the skid was so much more dangerous than the slip. Good to know.

[@brianb.2398]

Yes, this is why turning base to final is dangerous when you try to add extra rudder (skidding turn) in order to "make the runway".

[@JB_Hobbies]

@@brianb.2398 makes sense. I remember from spin training that when we simulated base to final spins if you let it go past spin prevention at all, you would get snapped inverted in an instant, and the way out was a split S-tough spot if you’re looking at that with less than 500 feet to go.

[@rapinncapin123]

Even some commercial pilots don't

[@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq]

This should be taught in the first few classes.

[@SAFEPilots]

Thank you; exactly the point I was trying to make! Pilots tend to just assume *all* cross-control is dangerous (but a slip to land is in the PPL ACS). Slips are stable, skids are killers: bit.ly/SAFE-CC

[@Bucketnate]

Im an early student and I get super nervous turning crosswind or base in the pattern. Especially when its turbulent. This helps a lot thanks

[@karhukivi]

Keep the speed up and don't go beyond a rate 1 turn and everything will be OK. It is watching the ground with a crosswind behind you on base and trying to tighten the turn to line up with the runway that creates the risk of a spin.

[@birds_eye_view]

Don't be. Speed is key. Hold your required speed and don't use the rudder to „pull“ the airplane around the turn. Skidding is a killer. Pulling on the yoke/stick makes an airplane stall. So don't worry when you overshot the final, either just navigate her back in normal turns like a S, or go around and try again. You can do any bank angle even at slow speed as long as you do not pull. You will just loose altitude quicker.

[@SAFEPilots]

Understand the difference between a slip and a skid: bit.ly/SAFE-CC

[@a320nick]

WATCH YOUR AIRSPEED THEN and you'll be fine and don't be afraid to bank normally to turn...

[@stephenwalton9646]

Almost all normal category light aircraft have restricted elevator deflection which affects the degree to which the wing will stall in normal, un accelerated conditions. A major aeronautical university used to have one or two designated spin ships for two reasons. Firstly, the old gyro instruments were damaged by the excursions and secondly, they rigged the elevator to allow more of the wing to stall. Even then, an acceleration of the stall had to be induced but sadly, most aircraft, without the ability to fully stall end up in a nose low accelerating spiral which can be far more dangerous than a spin due to the aerodynamic and “G” loads that usually follow in the recovery. In an ideal world, a ten hour basic aerobatics course should follow the Private Pilot rating for anyone with professional piloting ambitions,

[@SAFEPilots]

Agreed, all pilots should experience accelerated (at least secondary) stalls to see the plane stall with the nose low. SAFE has developed the "Extended Envelope Training" for GA pilots (EET is *required* now for the airlines) bit.ly/EEM-121

[@jmy6050]

Depends on the aircraft. Can't say it is true across the board. Some are prone to incipient spin simply by pulling the stick back with level wings until it stalls.

[@SAFEPilots]

This is also a dual training maneuver in the SAFE Extended Envelope Training: "falling leaf." Depending on the plane this can be challenging. The power-off slipping stall is reliably docile.

[@rapinncapin123]

Amazing!🎉

[@SAFEPilots]

This demo usually debunks all the erroneous "hangar talk" you encounter: let's go see what happens...

[@rapinncapin123]

@@SAFEPilots 😀 I love it!

[@bkailua1224]

I am sure this video is intended for student pilots and for this type of trainer this is valid. Gold seal CFI here, yes this is true with most all trainers and some other aircraft. But this is not true for all aircraft. The pilots I train and aircraft are more advanced and I show them how in a turn with slowly increasing angle of attack while slightly out of coordination and yawing they will find themself inverted and looking almost straight down at the ground and spinning when it stalls. These same aircraft if slipping will sometimes snap in the same direction of the high wing. These are fully aerobatic and we have chutes on.

[@SAFEPilots]

Understood (DPE here w/21K) in the "cross-controlled" configuration, make sure you are *slipping* and also power is at idle (increases rudder effectiveness and will spin "over the top")

[@TheMottasa]

I do turning stalls (power off and power on) with all my students. The ACS says that they can be evaluated in straight or in a turn.

[@SAFEPilots]

Great training. Most pilots first experiencing a turning stall are surprised how gentle they are. Most planes actually will not "break" and display a "mush" instead. The ACS says applicant will "recognize and announce" the stall and most don't even detect it in a turn! Every pilot should see this demo in dual instruction.

[@aaronhammond7297]

I try to tell people that the stick/yoke position is the angle of attack, and everybody refuses to listen, because they weren't taught that, and the way they were taught is of course correct.

[@SAFEPilots]

Actually yoke position correlates pretty closely with Angle of Attack (see other video on this channel) Yoke position does not correlate with airspeed. Full back is max AOA and you can achieve this at 1G (stall speed on airspeed indicator) or at cruise flight (that is how you perform a snap-roll -horizontal spin).

[@flyingconsultant]

You’re flying a Piper with a tapered wing. I have PA28-181 and it is very difficult to get it to spin. Normally it just leaf-stalls down and nothing really happens. That is not the case with all airplanes. Generalisation is the problem here.

[@SAFEPilots]

This is a demonstration intended to show the stability of a slip (you have to understand what this is - NOT a skid!). In a slip yaw opposes roll and every trainer I have tried at idle power preforms exactly like this: stable. My 7AC Champ (tailwheel with huge rudder) will spin "over the top!" IF you add any power in a GA trainer this same result: the airflow from the prop over the rudder provides more force and spins "over the top." But at idle power: stable.

[@jeffleverence4554]

How about shutting off the radio while talking?

[@eb1138]

I had to perform this (for the first time) on mt ppl checkride. All good

[@SAFEPilots]

The FAA would be interested in this I am sure; not a required maneuver for PPL. Testing "outside the ACS standard" is why DPEs get "retired!"

[@observer1242]

It’s hard to spin a Cherokee. I’ve even heard one CFI say that they don’t spin, but I don’t believe it, but it’s really hard. You have to do something very weird, especially with the tapered wingtip to make that plane misbehave.

[@SAFEPilots]

Agreed, my primary CFI (in 1970) demonstrated a spin in our Cherokee; an eye-opening experience at the time.

[@Greggg57]

Slip in, skid out.

[@bobsakamanos4469]

With proper ab initio trg, this is never a problem.

[@jimmyfall9302]

Ads were longer than the video. Ridiculous.

[@SAFEPilots]

Agreed, we have been considering Vimeo but we also want to reach the wider audience of KZbin.

[@Ahhalo-j9k]

Acts a little different in a high wing Cessna

[@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq]

I am licensed in airplanes (multi instrument), helicopters (commercial instrument) and gliders (CFI-G). For the life of me, I will always fail to understand why spins are not taught before solo like they are gliders. This instructor attempts to stall while in a cross control, not much happens in this particular aircraft. However, I have flown an 2-32 that would reliably enter an over the top spin from a slipping stall, I agree most will not. However, know the corners of your particular aircraft. And do yourself a huge favor, go get spin training from a competent instructor and school. Better yet add a glider rating to your ticket and learn how to fly long distance without an engine.

[@SAFEPilots]

Excellent advice. NO pilot should attempt this solo but should have a well-trained and experienced CFI along to demonstrate any non-coordinated stall. One critical part of this demonstration is understanding the role of power. At idle this is stable (in this make/model and all other trainers I have tried). Im my Champ with more effective rudder, it will stall "over the top" (toward the high wing following the rudder) and enter a spin. If you suddenly add power, this plane will aggressively "snap" the same way (Over the top). Have an experienced instructor along...

[@CramcrumBrewbringer]

If you’re coordinated, it can’t, you’ll stay in an accelerated stall until you get uncoordinated.

[@SAFEPilots]

The "cross control" is *deliberate* uncoordination, but slip is stable...skid will kill you (better understand the difference): bit.ly/SAFE-CC

[@Flying_Snakes]

Great vid, now skid it and do some spins!😅

[@SAFEPilots]

That is the next planned video; always was part of this demo - "when will it spin?"

[@Flying_Snakes]

@@SAFEPilots Looking forward to it!

[@david8720]

If neither of these things result in a spin, I guess the question is: what _does_ cause a spin, and how is that different to the scenarios demonstrated?

[@karhukivi]

An uncoordinated turn at stall speed. Older aircraft like the Gypsy Moth (biplane) will spin very easily when stalled. The wing drop is corrected with the rudder. If you try to level the wings with the ailerons, then a spin is guaranteed!

[@SAFEPilots]

A spin will result very quickly if you stall an aircraft in a "SKID!" It is essential to understand how this is different from a SLIP. In a skid, the rate of turn is too great for the bank angle and the result is a combining of the force of roll and yaw in the same direction: bit.ly/SAFE-CC

[@stickandrudderindy]

not sure why he never actually demonstrated the cross control stall. I do cross controls into a spin to demonstrate how dangerous they are. We lose 700-900' in about 4 seconds.

[@SAFEPilots]

As a DPE, I continually have applicants who are reluctant to perform a full "slip to land" (as required by the PPL ACS) because they think "cross-controlled" is inherently dangerous. (of course they also fear a turning stall - also in the ACS) As demonstrated, a power off slip will not spin. It is stable, safe, and useful - why it is in the PPL ACS.

[@stickandrudderindy]

@@SAFEPilots don't disagree with anything you've shown. An aircraft does not spin if it does not stall. a stalled aircraft does not spin if there is no yaw motion. In a stall, the nose will go wherever the rudder is pointed thus slips are very safe as opposed to skids are very dangerous. I've done spin training for years and over 3000 spins and my syllabus is 16 maneuvers (including deep stall, slip to spin, skid-cross control stall, falling leaf, docile entry, snap entry, power on, beggs mueller, fully developed spin with ~10 turns, student teaching and dutch roll). I demonstrate the base to final cross control into a spin. It's quite revealing. I've also evaluated more than 250 initial CFI applicants and I drive home the concept of slipping vs skidding. I always have them demonstrate stalls in a turn and to the "break". I own/teach in my citabria. since I don't have flaps, my students get really good at slips. my favorite is the base to final slip. I ALWAYS require the outside rudder in a base to final slip (regardless of the wind). Pushing the insider rudder is a cross control stall waiting to happen. My only point in my comment is that you mentioned the "dreaded cross control stall" but never demonstrated one.

[@venutoa]

Which plane and model is that?

[@johnopalko5223]

You can see the registration number, N75217, at 0:06. Go to the FAA website and search on that number. You will find it's a 1976 Piper PA-28-181, aka Archer. Just a little thing to add to your bag of tricks.

[@venutoa]

@@johnopalko5223 im lazy. I didnt see n number. Lol

[@johnopalko5223]

@@venutoa It happens. There are probably lots of folks who don't know how to do N-number lookups, so maybe my comment will be of some use to them.

[@arthurbrumagem3844]

@@johnopalko5223you can do the same for airmen info ( or pilot info if you are PC)

[@vironpayne3405]

You never made it to a full stall.

[@SAFEPilots]

Yes, kinda pathetic in a PA-28 but actually works the same in every trainer I have tried (DPE w/21K) The point is the stability of the yaw out of the turn (slip) balancing the wing-down roll force (stable). A slip at idle in most planes is pretty docile. If I added power there (like an attempted go-around) without removing rudder, it would "spin over the top" in a second. (One of the best ways to spin a Cherokee).

[@BillPalmer]

Slipping the first one

[@OneTequilaTwoTequila]

Your first part of the demonstration was good. You are right when you say it will not spin if you stall in coordinated flight. But you are greatly misleading (and potentially endangering) your viewers with your demonstration of how docile a cross-controlled stall is. Not all airplanes act like the one you're flying. Some will break hard and rapidly and could catch an inexperienced pilot off guard.

[@SAFEPilots]

The plain vanilla PA-28🤣

[@1589chicago]

Some pilots stall sitting on the ground....oh wait thats s in a stall ;)

[@a320nick]

It hurts, when your head hits the canopy an your neck whiplashes! I can't believe, you did not take this further to show students what happens when it SNAPS!! and flicks round in one MEAN spin!! Why didn't you show that too...because if they find it, by accident near the ground in base they may die quickly!!

[@SAFEPilots]

This slipping stall will not "snap" unless you add full power and "energize" the rudder. This *does* happen when a pilot is high and slipping to lose altitude and then decides to go around (and forgets to recover the slip first). There are many accidents that have occurred in this manner (and usually not correctly explained by the NTSB). I do intend to rent a C-152 and demonstrate this same maneuver in a slip and in a skid. The slip is super stable, the slip immediately enters a very nice spin.

[@michaelrussek154]

Excellent video. However every airplane is different. If an airplane is out of rig or aerodynamically untrue by small imperfections in the wings or empennage can cause a spin. Not saying I’m a know it all but I have 21,000 plus hours and countless times it happened to me to prove it.

[@SAFEPilots]

Same! (21K hours and 16K dual given): some out of rig planes (commonly trainers) exhibit all kinds of weird behavior at high AOA - you *should* be careful (dual only) if you want to see this demo.

[@Nemesisnxt]

Happy the wing stayed on that piper.

[@SAFEPilots]

Agreed: not a fan!

[@jamesavery6015]

Do that in a 152😂

[@elevenbucks5682]

I have many times, had no problem

[@SAFEPilots]

I have > 7K given in a C-152, and demonstrated that to every student before they soloed in the practice area (as well as full spin demo); similarly stable!

[@a320nick]

Precisely!!

[@chucklemasters6433]

have you ever done a spin sir? bring your power up to about 2000 rpm or more and keep the nose wings level nose straight ahead with no rudder and all right aileron and it will spin like crazy! do you know what happens after the third turn? do you know what happens in a spin with a fata$$ in the back seat? your theory on measuring AOA with the distance the yoke is pulled back is about the lamest thing i have ever heard! why does the left wing stall with full right aileron?

[@SAFEPilots]

Yes, over 2,000 spins logged...done a few. And yes power will make this spin over the top (but that is not the point of this video). This was created because pilot applicants fear (and misunderstand) "cross-controlled" as inherently dangerous. A power-off slip is a very useful tool (but don't skid)! See our full webinar here on that subject!

[@RobertPeniston]

Only lost 1000'? Nice demonstration but if you in the pattern loosing 1,000' wouldn't be good !

[@SAFEPilots]

The tower at our field really would not want to see this on short final. Obviously this is a demonstration for lots of altitude. In gliders we often intentionally stay high and the last turn to final is a full slip to lose the last altitude (no "too low add power" or go-arounds in gliders)

[@silverwings1843]

I have flown many types and cats of aircraft. Going into Bottom Slow Flight some will just Float if kept Coordinated (Ball or Yoke Centered). Some will Break no matter what. Some High Performance Trainers are designed to Break no matter what. So....Do not ever expect an aircraft not to Break!!! One of Aviation's Rules that should never be broken: "Thy Shalt Not Stall Thy Aircraft" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@SAFEPilots]

Actually, in flight training we encourage stalling in all configurations so people are prepared to recover an unexpected loss of control. The "comfort zone" of safe and happy flying for most pilots is 5-7% of the entire flight envelope (very limited). When (not if) a pilot gets displaced from the "comfort zone" bad things will happen😱

[@arip9234]

You’re flying the most docile airplane built for training. Maybe a different airplane will stall quicker

[@a320nick]

Like a 150A

[@SAFEPilots]

Yes, for sure. Every airplane has a certain "personality" in slow flight and stall regime. The little Cessnas (150/2) spin nicely. The other half of this demo is the skidding turn. Just add a little power and it snap rolls over into a spin.

[@arip9234]

@ that’s good to know, I’m actually thinking of buying a 150 to build hours

[@jmax8692]

Good advice although not entirely evaluated so be cautious any student pilots here. Another pro pilot tip when clearing the airspace at 4000 feet presumably MSL, the fucking boats on the river are irrelevant 😂😂

[@SAFEPilots]

Added the "boats on the lake" for a bit of humor!