THE EMPEROR OF MANKIND COMES FOR ANGRON!

Hi all Wolf Lord Rho here!
Angron week, continues on. And today we are discussing The Emperor of Mankind, and his reunion with Angron... how it happened, and what we can make of it.
Spoiler Warning to begin the events we are discussing today are from the Warhammer 40,000 Horus Heresy short story "Ghost of Nuceria" by Ian St. Martin. As always I really recommend you read the story for yourself first. As that's the best way to enjoy the lore. For yourself! Not only that, we help to support the great Games Workshop and Black Library. Because without them we don't have this amazing lore to discuss! Link: www.blacklibrary.com/the-horu...
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[@-Gilver]

"You will not have Angron, you will only have a ghost, a shell of who Angron was" The most tragic Primarch indeed

[@ZhaoDrek]

that line almos made me crie

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

Corvus Corax: "Write that down, write that down!"

[@guybucknell4481]

And a trajic emperor

[@huelads740]

You forgot what the emperor's reply was, it was quite honestly some of the biggest emperor hate in canon. "A shell will do"

[@SerV689]

@@huelads740 that was a dirty ass blow from emps lol

[@darrynmurphy2038]

"Hmm, I wonder if tearing my mentally unstable son away from his comrades will have an adverse impact on our relationship? I wonder if I should maybe save them, earning his undying loyalty in return? Nah" - Big E, Father of the Millennium

[@yargbarg6404]

You know for a person so damn smart, that was one dumb ass move Big E pulled....

[@00yiggdrasill00]

I actually see it different. Angron was the only primarch to fail at taking his own homeworld without his fathers aid and we know he would later be ashamed of that. This was his father giving him that chance. One final roll of the dice to avoid humiliation and only stepped in when it was clearly lost. I dont actually think there was a right call to be made here by E. The nails had robbed angron of so much, and that there was a human culture that would do that to what was supposed to be one of their greatest protectors is very 40k, and perhaps very real.

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

Sounded to me more like the Emprah just arrived as Angron was the last man standing by that point?

[@darrynmurphy2038]

@@00yiggdrasill00 True, he may have reacted similarly to Mortarion, viewing the Emperor's intervention as him stealing his glory.

[@worldeater2414]

@@mcmarkmarkson7115 Nah. As bad as this book was, it stated that when Emps arrived he was still fighting with his family.

[@vince2682]

Headcanon: Emperor: You're a disappointment, you're the only one who didn't conquer his planet. your brothers all did. you failed to conquer your planet, you don't deserve my help. Angron: I'm not a Tyrant and I will not serve one.

[@SupBro-ww9go]

Likely the truth

[@HalofreakmasterPwn]

"What have they done to you?" That line could easily be the Emperor remarking on the butchers nails. Essentially, "they have desecrated my creation" vs. "my sweet little boy".

[@4hire565]

I don’t know.. he deleted to other primarchs before. Some mods on Angron wouldn’t freak him out if Angron himself wasn’t important to him.

[@commieKalmarunion]

The angriest version of maximus decimus meridius

[@EchoMirage72]

More like Spartacus

[@timvanroey6641]

Commander of the felix legions

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

bigus dickus

[@KaiserAfini]

*Angron:* I should have died that day. Victory or defeat. They lived, I lived. They died, I died. Yet you denied me even that. *Emperor:* Son, even if your psyche was being torn by madness and ruin was upon everything you built, I would expect you to persevere, to imbibe from this bitter chalice and play the hand you were dealt, until your last move. I would do no less, even if I was half a step from becoming a corpse. *Angron:* Yet I would never have forced that cup upon you, made you abandon that which you came to care for, just to satisfy a whim. So now you will receive just desserts for that venomous toast, my fury will scour your dream until naught but ash remains.

[@deecee796]

well written

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Angron" I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

[@gundam116]

moody owl production's you where my primarch Angron! I never loved you eh I mean..

[@gundam116]

Is this from the book? Or your own mind?

[@KaiserAfini]

@@gundam116 My own mind, just trying to capture the feel of Angron's perspective.

[@K4n01]

10:13 Angron died a good man, an honorable man.

[@marckevinjavier1897]

Big E: Am I out of touch of a father for not helping and fighting along with my son in a planet that is out to kill him and his mates? Also Big E: Nah, it's my son's fault for not listening to me that I won't help him fight alongside him.

[@cn9707]

Just because he's the greatest psyker with custodies and world hounds in orbit, doesn't mean he could help. Oh wait

[@marckevinjavier1897]

@@cn9707 Its like you have the greatest army in the galaxy versus some scrapyard punks who decided to mess with your son but you just said nah.

[@dr.palsonp.h.d815]

He could have literally snapped and won the war for his boy, but nope

[@dr.palsonp.h.d815]

@Arvin Clark Ubanan {Droplet Cloud} bad writing

[@wikipediaintellectual7088]

tl;dr

[@44bioniclemaster]

Imagine how bad ass it would of been of instead of the Emperor teleporting Angron out, he either teleports down himself and fights along side his son or simply sending down the warhounds

[@commissarlugh1040]

Would have been cash.

[@worldeater2414]

@Tom The Terrible He did it to Monarchia, he could have done it here.

[@chrisspink8873]

World Eater very true but isn’t it stated he wanted Nucia intact due to their advanced tech and they were willing to peacefully integrate into the imperium. So butchering their armies with his son would of been a step backwards

[@worldeater2414]

@@chrisspink8873 No. Nuceria was compliant, and while they had STCs for Sub craft (that being Submergible), it is stated by World Eaters themselves that Nuceria is kinda lacking in advancments. To the point where they live in brick buildings, made of mortar and tar. What higher places there were, are basically Greek/Roman level of buildings. Marble and stone. Nuceria could have been conquered without really any time seeing as in original lore, Emps had the War Hounds with him and hung around in orbit before TALKING to Angron a night before the battle. Emps in old lore had every reason to help Angron, but didn't. Which also for all the jokes and everything aimed at Angron for not conquering Nuceria, Angron was in a shite situation. Few if none could have survived it like Angron did. Also Angron told The Emperor, with Emps in his full glory, to piss off. Emps offered Angron a lifetime of conquest and Angron said no.

[@user-unos111]

@@chrisspink8873 Even if that was true all he'd need is to teleport in the middle of the battle and use is psychic might to force both armies to kneel into submision, ending the conflict without any death.

[@TankGuy3]

A squad of Warhounds, Custodes, or even just the Emperor using his psychic might would have stopped the Nucerians from butchering Angron's companions.

[@randomcenturion7264]

"Saves" is a very...liberal interpretation.

[@MrUnreal9111]

It's a shame they don't have the parenting for dummies series in the 30th millennium.

[@Cam-ks8yz]

@Isaac Bishop Junior Call it Parenting for Emperor's , then he would be foolish to ignore it

[@jajordan2106]

The STC has been lost and no forgeworld is known to have any knowledge of where it may be

[@perturabo149]

the emperor is just a rotten corpse from his former self,i dont know why but after his plans about no gods just backfired at him and the questions stands, what did the emperor,my father had became,the strongest man born yet with a rotten corpse,ignorant and a foul or a man that really wants order in the galaxy and destroy chaos ?

[@edim108]

"Saves" is one way to put it. "Rips him out of battle and leaves his best friends to die even though he could easily save them" is more descriptive IMO.

[@Kainlarsen]

I think much of it is that the Emperor's growing power and longivity has muddied his ability to understand and empathise with others, even his sons. It is almost like a kind of divine dementia.

[@Johann_Gambolputty_of_Ulm]

For me he usually looked like a case of Dr Manhattan. Sure you start as a human. But then... When you've seen thousands upon thousands years unfold, whole civilizations growing and crumbling, when you perceive things on a galactic scale - bah, on an interdimensional one, plotting a great gambit against god-like beings... I don't think you can remain human, or relate to human impulses.

[@deecee796]

Id buy that explanation if Emps hadn't gone out of his way to impress, appease the primarchs, or somehow gain their loyalty (Vulkan's story to name but one). But here it seems like he went in with the intention to fuck up as badly as it was possible for him to do.

[@minnumseerrund]

But he couldnt bare to kill Horus cause feels.... nah, I like your interpretation, but Emps is simply too fickly written to make any damn sense, especially when it comes to his treatment/interaction with different primarchs

[@DD8842]

no i think the deal the emperor made demanded the fall of a primarch and since angron was already damaged he just paired him with the ones that would turn on him

[@krise99391]

Honestly, this feels so out of character for the emperor that i wish this whole thing would just be retconned. With everyone else he always went out of his way to impress, appease them, or somehow gain their loyalty. But here it seems like he went in with the intention to fuck up as badly as it was possible for him to do. Actually this part of the book seems to me like the kind of thing a disgruntled employee could come up with on their last day of work just to spite their employer, knowing that they couldn't get punished for doing it. Of course, this can't possibly be the case, unless they had some pretty serious issues with development/publication

[@alexanderm8880]

I did my own post but I think the Emperor purposefully embittered Angron so he'd be one of the betrayers. It's hinted that he knew some would betray him.

[@SupBro-ww9go]

I disagree

[@wafflefuher9842]

I'd love to see Bruva do an animation of this in his style. That shit would be hilarious.

[@ianbeck9484]

In one of the videos the emperor stated that he had accidentally teleported angron onto his ship

[@Matihood1]

@@ianbeck9484 Wait, really? Which one?

[@rickconnolly5006]

Adventures of Vulkan and Angron spin off too?

[@worldeater2414]

@@rickconnolly5006 Nah. It would be a buddy cop duo of Corax and Angron teaming up to kick slaver ass together

[@burntham113]

Angron: Hey dad can you save my friends from certain doom? I'll literally love you forever if you do. Emps: Nah fuck that.

[@Metalsonic91]

the emperor telleports him self and angron to his flag ship.... his flag ship full of custodes .... his flagship full of custodes that could have easily destroyed the slavers and saved angron friends with out breaking a sweat... which in turn would have garuntted the loyalty of his son ..... The Emperor of man Father of the milenium ladies and gentelmen

[@dreadbringer]

A Liberator Empath, a man of compassion and rage, you could have been so much More Angron

[@commissarlugh1040]

With out the nails him and Vulcan would have been quite the duo.

[@dreadbringer]

@@commissarlugh1040 i would have loved a book of those two or any other primarchs just sharing their thoughts and time toghether.

[@worldeater2414]

@@dreadbringer Read what Khârn said about Angron and the way he looks. Angron was gorgeous, and would have been as charmingly attractive as Sanguinius. But atlas, that didn't happen.

[@dreadbringer]

I wonder though, Is It posible for someone who has become a Daemon slave, to regain his soul? Could angron ever refuse khorne?

[@tysonfranklin9781]

@@commissarlugh1040 the healer and the humanitarian but also two absolute warheads.

[@Cam-ks8yz]

Angy: Dad I would like to save my friends maybe?? Dad: Mmm, no :) Also don't ever be bitter about this pls

[@rickconnolly5006]

Angy: Dad can we get fren? Dad: No we have fren at home Frens at home: Lorgar, Fulgrim, Night Haunter...

[@robertmendoza3025]

Emperor: *appears to Angron* "Are ya winning so-... Oh Me..."

[@Ibian666]

And freakin' Papa Smurf, who apparently does not understand the difference early life makes, and who seriously needs to guard against jealousy and pride. Angron got a rough deal.

[@markcoroneos7811]

@Rick Connolly haha damn you beat me too it

[@rickconnolly5006]

@@markcoroneos7811 sorry fren...

[@theyoda55]

[My take making sense of what happened, simplified and really just written off the cuff, so I probably made Big E wordier than he should be] *A meeting between Malcador and the Emperor, soon after rescuing Angron* Malcador: "I have seen the reports about Angron. It is quite the tragedy." Emp: "................. They destroyed him." Malcador: "The technology they used, those 'butcher's nails', are cruel to say the least. Will you be able to remove them?" Emp: "I have my best technicians working on it." Malcador: "You didn't answer my question." *Emperor looks away, something that catches Malcador quite off-guard. The Emperor, with such control over his emotions, to show an involuntary sign of how he feels is certainly a sign of some hidden tempest* Emp: "I do not think so. They are so deeply entwined with his brain that to remove them would cause irreparable damage." Malcador: "Can you not use your powers to fix him? To keep him alive through the process?" *The Emperor looks back at Malcador* Emp: "It is touched by Them. I could even feel the nails rebelling against my presence. My power is the only one that could undo what the nails have done, but since their operation partially requires Their touch to work, my powers being anathema to them would cause the nails to fail and kill Angron." *The Emperors face was solid and emotionless, but his voice gained an edge to it* Malcador: "Well.... perhaps then we should give him peace like his two brothers-" Emp: "NO. Not again." *Malcadors brow furroughed* Malcador: "My lord, my friend, I know it grieves you, but we must-" Emp: "No." Malcador: "You said it yourself that the nails, and by extension Angron, are affected by Them. Keeping him around is incredibly risky." Emp: "Keeping Angron alive introduces risk to the speed of the crusade, but killing him risks my own mind." *Malcador stayed silent* Emp: "You know the thin path I tread. I must keep my emotions in check so to not give the Four any weaknesses to exploit, but yet I cannot remove them and let my humanity fall through my fingers. If I do, I could lose sight of why we do this in the first place. To help mankind. If I were to lose another son, it will either awaken the parts of me I must keep in check, or I must further remove my own humanity to prevent it. I cannot let that happen." *It had been so long since the Emperor had spoken this much without Malcador having to draw it out of him.* Emp: "My control wavered. I blamed not just the lords of that planet for what happened to him, I blamed all of Nuceria. Including his 'brothers and sisters'. He denied me, and like a parent infuriated by their child's repudiation, I dragged him away kicking and screaming. And in doing so, I think I truly lost what could have been salvaged............. We must hurry Malcador. I cannot afford to take any longer than necessary to be done with this crusade. We must be done before they can further exploit my greatest weakness." *Malcador sighed*: "My friend, if your sons were not your greatest weakness, then I do not think I would have followed you."

[@silversurfer8818]

I approve of this!

[@standarddeviation7963]

Horus and Angron were swapped places in a cruel joke. That is my headcanon.

[@Nyctophora]

What you have here is gold.

[@MightyGalvatron]

One quibble: at least one of the two lost primarchs wasn't "purged" until AFTER the Emperor found Alpharius. We know this because he and Jaghatai Khan were present when Horus confronted Malcador about it.

[@theyoda55]

@@MightyGalvatron actually i think they were already dead, but maybe their records weren't purged yet b/c when Emps meets Corvus for the first time it is implied that they were already dead.

[@markrtoffeeman]

I also believe that the Butcher's Nails made Angron schizophrenic. It seems that he may have forgotten most of his interactions with the Emperor. The fact the Butcher's Nails caused pain in response to the psychic presence of the Emperor suggests to me the damage to Angron was beyond profound. It suggests Angron was incapable of remembering events positively or with emotions such as love or similar. It destroyed his empathic abilities.

[@kelman727]

It reacted that way to all psykers.

[@TheReaper569]

What are those nails and what do they do?

[@worldeater2414]

I have always belived that was the case. The Schizophrenia thing

[@abraxasvirus2218]

@@TheReaper569 the butchers nails bite your brain at any sign of happyness or love causing you to only act on violence and anger and when you kill or something of that level the nails give yoh a rush of excitement think of it as a dog shock collar

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

Maybe the Emprah with his psychic might knew without a shadow of a doubt, there was nothing he could do to change Angrons opinion.

[@clusterfuck7375]

When angron killed the marine who was to welcome his primarch, his father, his future leader, it broke my heart.

[@TherealSBlair]

The Emperor of Mankind. The ultimate High Rider.

[@TheCreepyLantern]

THIS

[@alphacypher7099]

Exactly

[@jessejamesroy0069]

yes!

[@user-zc5hv3pd4p]

HERESY

[@davidlewis9346]

You have a collect call from : THE INQUISITION!!!

[@grimnar1976]

I love how these novels on the traitor primarchs exacerbate the tragedy of their fall.

[@morningnapalm9963]

The Emperor of Mankind, the most powerful psyker among humanity, genius-level intellect with eons of study and access to some the the most sophisticated technologies in the galaxy. CAn't pull out a couple of nails

[@khartog01]

This always bothered me. Magnus's Pavoni cult were healers. They could manipulate the body on a molecular level. Surely they could have removed the nails and healed Angron's brain.

[@isawaryokage]

With all Primarchs, the Emperor was reading their mind and witnessing their history. To me the Emperor saw how broken he was and how the nails ruined Angron forever. He knew that there was no other way to save him. Even if the Emperor saved the slaves, Angron would not go with him, and would eventually rebel against the imperial "occupation" of Nuceria. Loosing probably both him and the Warhounds and having Russ execute him. That would demoralise the other Primarchs at a pivotal moment in the crusade. So I guess he tried to do it, like pulling a band aid. It didn't work like we know. But it at least gave them time to study the nails and try and remove them, which didn't work either.

[@richmendelson8194]

Sometimes you rip a bandaid and it's still attached to the scab, and rips it off too

[@____________838]

Then He should have realized how important Angron’s fellow gladiators were to him and saved them.

[@irispaiva]

Sorry for the late answer, but I disagree. The Emperor could've made the case for Xenos slavers and etc, molding Angron into a liberator figure akin to Corax, after all, humans were being enslaved and treated poorly in some areas.

[@justinokraski3796]

he should've brokered a peace where the gladiators and Aggron would be "exiled" to never return to Nuceria and they get to serve among the Warhounds as support staff and auxiliary troops

[@master-of-frogs5415]

I love how Angron’s “dumb berserker” stereotype is so extreme that he needs arrows on his axes

[@OmniGSage]

The emperor has got to be the most inconsistently written character in all of 40k, maybe warhammer as a whole.

[@morcova]

It would have taken a few hours with the Custodes to take the world and save Angrons friends.

[@whitefam420]

The emperor could have destroyed that army himself and would have had a much more manageable Angron. It's very damn dumb how he handles the whole situation.

[@timtrainage]

Big E fu©ks up a quite often. For a group of Shaman living in one body..."they" make a lot of mistakes.

[@laynebinell7310]

The emperor could have done so much more it kills me to think what he became and what he could have been😥,true tragedy. From possibly one of the most loyal to the least loyal from 1 simple action of the emperor failing him

[@Jadefox32]

Angron, who simply wished to die with his fellow gladiators to die his own death, brought forcefully into the Emperor's war of galactic conquest. Then forced to ascend to Dameonhood by Lorgar so that now he can never die and has no will of his own.

[@15DEAN1995]

Angron rips a custodian in half fully armored with his bare hands. Meanwhile perturabo with his hands peeled the armor off a space marine (like an orange) without killing him. Im not sure which one is more insane

[@ginghinaandrei5013]

Perturabo automatically sees weak points. He onows how to unmake things. He straight out had thd 'how to' in his mind.

[@Nurriek]

I honestly think that Big E loved all of his children. All 20 Primarchs. That phrase "What have they done to you?" I think is him searching Angron's mind and finding the Butcher's Nails. I think he knows that those Nails killed his son. The Ghost is all that's left. And he needs all he can get. I do think Angron should have been left to die, honestly. I don't think that Angron would have seen the Custodes bringing the world of Nuceria into Compliance as anything other than the trading of one shackle for another. I think the Emperor knows it would make no difference. From his perspective, he cannot be the Father, so he must be the Emperor, and make the best of what is less than ideal. A lot of that is supposition on my part, but it fits for me.

[@vigothecarpathian5501]

You really have to do mental gymnastics to defend the Emperor on this one. I enjoy you loyalists.

[@xFirtewx]

iam a loyalist yes ,and i blame the emperor for all this mess , you know when i put myself on Angron shoes ,i would have done the same ,i would have betrayed the imperium in a heart beat ,but still i would not sell my soul to chaos , i would just became a renegade.

[@davinthule249]

@@xFirtewx well tbf it wasn't so much Angrons choice to become a demon phrimarch of khorne. Lorgar dedicated him to khorne to save his life, it was the only way Lorgar could find to stop Angron from dying, well that reason and extra shenanigans too.

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

The Emprah is not the friendly daddy type, he butchered countless humans in brutal fashion in the unification wars. If you defend him before you defend him now for the simple reason that he is humanity's only chance of freedom from chaos.

[@xFirtewx]

@@mcmarkmarkson7115 Yes that is why i'am a loyalist ,because he is the only chance for humanity , you could say picking your devil yes ,if would put the emperor here in the real world ,take the murderous xenos away and the existance of chaos ,and yes the emperor would be the greatest tyrant who have ever lived , but in the warhammer universe i wouldn't say he is good or bad ,but necessary for the survival of humanity .

[@tomisdead]

I think a lot of the issue is a lot of the primarch background was written so long ago that it now suffers from being forced to all fit into the heresy saga. GW literally wrote 18 separate stories for the primarchs and all the ones that turned had sad stories and those that were loyal didn't and that was going to be that. Now they all have to fit into this sweeping narrative and they just don't. Thats why with things like Angron's story the Emperor acts totally randomly with no reason for his actions, because it was never meant to fit with everything else he did

[@Whathedkns]

“Saves” is definitely one way to put it.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

You bring up many good points, but I can't escape the sense, that because this is the one key episode, that gives fuel to the "Asshole Emperor" position, you are trying to reason it away. Don't get me wrong, your take is solid, but it is easier to argue, that the Emperor found a semi-broken tool, just cut his losses and decided to get what use out Angron he could. What further supports this for me, is that Angron then slaughtered and massacred his way across the stars for decades after this, and The Emperor never held him back or stopped him. He found a broken murdermashine, and just put it to whatever use he could. Of all the Primarchs, Angrons rebellion is the most understandable and dare I say it; Justified!

[@fernandopires135]

Rho: "what have they done to you?" - such a sympatetic line me: "what have they done to you?...my axe" remenber what guilliman said, he and his brothers were THINGS

[@two_tone_bandit]

I have some ideas and theories. First, I'm a fan of the more human and humane Emperor. That being said, I interpreted this passage as the Emperor being shocked and concerned upon first contacting and removing Angron from Nuceria. Once aboard His flagship, He witnessed Angron *rip a Custodes in half with his bare hands* faster than even the Emperor could react to stop him. Seeing this drove home how far gone His creation was, and hardened Big E's heart towards Angron. Any slight hope that the Primarch he remembered creating may have survived was dashed. Not even the Emperor could hope to fix him, so He salvaged whatever use He could get out of Angron. About Emps not helping Angron, I suspect that Nuceria may have willingly accepted Compliance. Upon finding out that this new, willingly compliant world was attempting to suppress a slave rebellion that was being led by one of His Primarchs, it put the Emperor in a bit of a pickle: It wouldn't make much sense to deploy His forces *against* a world that happily joined the Imperium just for the sake of a broken Primarch's ego. And to that point, Angron had a death wish. The nails were already in his skull. I think Angron would have been enraged and bitter with the Emperor no matter what He did, helpful or not.

[@kelman727]

Second time. The first time he psychically renders Angron unconscious so he can remove and examine his body with the aid of Arkhan Land.

[@R0230R]

Oh no you don't m8s, yes! the Butchers Nail had messed with Angron's psyche and his original function/design, but he still had basic self-control to recognize his enemies from his allies and how to direct his rage. saving Angron's people would have made things alot smoother when it came to ensure his loyalty to the Imperium(he had a decent relationship with Lorgar and Horus), but instead the Emperor's actions ensured that one day Angron would turn against him and worst of all; he would have a justified reason for it. among all the debatably bad choices the Emperor may have taken, Angron's case takes the cake. the Emperor had many ways he could have saved them with the least amount of blood been spilled if he wanted to(just remember what he did to Monarchia using his Psychic powers alone). so at best the writers simply messed up their having to make sure for plot's sake to create animosity between the Emperor and Angron.

[@ukaszbiaek6641]

@@R0230R ekhm Angron and Lorgar had what? Good relationship? Angron before "Betrayer" hated Lorgar.

[@R0230R]

@@ukaszbiaek6641 Well he still saved Lorgar's life at one point and they fought side by side.

[@ukaszbiaek6641]

@@R0230R in betrayer? Still hh and one ocasion. In slaces of darkness he almost ate him

[@Max-zr7hr]

Emperor in mirror: You're not toxic... They're toxic!

[@darcsteel]

This is one of those moments in the lore that I've thought about constantly. E. couldnt take him back to earth. He would have seen what was in Angron's heart and in his mind and known Angron would never accept being his primarch. Also dont forget E.'s foresight something that Konrad and Sang both have lesser versions of, so he would have seen all the paths his interactions with Angron could take. He likley ported him away because anything else would have resulted in the deaths of people he could not replace, mabye even losing Malacador himself.

[@burntham113]

He should have teleported down with the custodes and warhounds, introduced himself to Angron, and wiped out the slavers alongside him. The whole "there's no time" argument he made is stupid. He spent days drinking, eating, and partying with Russ when they reunited. Not to mention hours talking and bonding with Corax (who also led a slave revolt) when they met. The only reason I can see why he would do this, is because he wanted Angron to go bad.

[@josef4752]

Why I first saw the picture for this video I honestly thought I was looking at Kratos

[@worldeater2414]

Where do you think they got it from?

[@maxhellscream1067]

Thank man, now i like even more Angron and world eaters. I'm still curious about Angron "with out nails" teaching is compassion to his sons and the result of it. They could be a mix between salamender's human care, and killing their enemies with quick death like the death guard. lol Angron tearing apart a custodiens with is bare-hands is feel like easily as a space marines tearing apart a human.

[@connorbaird8596]

Well I imagine the Custodes were ordered not to hurt Angron, just like the War Hounds. So a Custode wouldn't resist being killed if they were told to.

[@michaelhowell2326]

I'm as a big an Imperial fanboy there is, but Angron is one of my favorite Primarchs. His story is probably the most tragic of all, changing a caring and loving demigod into a vicious and evil Prince of Khorne.

[@Auron327]

"The events of this novel wont change your opinions about the emperor." Damn straight, they reinforced them. Death to the false emperor! Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne!

[@____________838]

Angron wouldn’t want you to be so slavish.

[@captainflapjax7240]

This is the stupidest and most preventable oopsie that the Emperor has ever committed. Man practically did a 40k version of "Because I said so." It would have been nothing, NOTHING, for him to teleport Angron back with him and a detachment of Custodes and end the battle.

[@carloscaballeromoreno4853]

Not even the custodes, just teleport in front of the army and decimate them. What a waste

[@carloscaballeromoreno4853]

Like, FFS, just teleport all of them onto the ship and go like "I'm your father, I've come to save you". Instant loyalty

[@ianbeck9484]

Carlos caballeromoreno teleport or drop in angrons sons to save him and his companions and gain his loyalty

[@fallentitan9811]

It would have been so easy. Hardly a few minutes at most really. Just teleport back down with Angorn, a dozen or so Custodes. And that'll be it.

[@captainflapjax7240]

@@fallentitan9811 super easy, barely an inconvenience.

[@TheLodgePainting]

I’m a builder and I think everyone who works in a trade has a tool in their tool box that doesn’t quite work properly but you don’t throw it away because sometimes it comes in useful. Same with the big E and Angron.

[@BladeMaster117]

I am actually shocked that the Emperor did not just help Angron, especially after seeing what they did to him

[@BruteDion]

"What have they done to you" is also something you could say to a Tool that was broken or messed up beyond what you wanted. I dont think that line say if the Emperor cared for Angron or not.

[@FuckYT001]

More like he threw him to Chaos

[@Kaida760]

Nuceria stole his humanity from him, Could the Emperor have saved him? Yes. Did he? No.

[@stevestevenstevensen270]

I think the Emperor sent Angron off so easily because he could sense that his presence caused Angron pain from of the nails. Above the gold and the psychic power Big E is still a man and a father. He was no doubt devastated at the sight of someone who he thought was going to be one of his favored sons be in such a horrible state. Seeing Angron as he was and after he just killed a Custodes, the Emperor no doubt was in shock or disbelief and maybe thought the presence of Angrons children/legion could calm him. Your right though, a little expanding or a minor retcon to flush out some details would be nice. Maybe something along the lines of when Rowboat Gorillaman talked about his regret and shame of the raising of Monarchia. The Emperor reflects with Malcador about Angron and how ashamed he his of the way he handled things or is too heartbroken to see his mutilated boy being reduced to no more than a beast. That every time he tries to speak to Angron it only causes him more pain, more rage and that the only thing left for him is to be unleashed on his enemies until Angron is killed.

[@emperorschampion8471]

Iv been sent here for recon

[@patrickmundhenk-koch7407]

Just wanted to give you a big fat thanks for your content!

[@darcsteel]

This video should be called "And this is where the Emperor done F***** Up"

[@chungusdisciple9917]

Top 3 40k channels on KZbin, up there with Baldermort and Luetin. Your content is top notch, and it is appreciated.

[@silversurfer8818]

The Emperor brokered a deal with chaos, to imbue the primarchs with the power of the warp he had to sacrifice some of them to the abyss! Which is why he had bad relationships with all of the traitor primarchs, because he already knew the events that would unfold. Why he held Horus to such a high esteem, i cant say with absolute certainty. But the phrase "What have they done to you?" is most likely referred to chaos and the actions they manipulated to transform Angron into the being he was about to become!

[@15DEAN1995]

It feels so weird to have the 2 distinct versions of the emperor. The cold, "the primarchs are my tools" and "a shell will have to do" version. Then theres the human version that spoke with corvus corax upon their first meeting, and saved vulcan from falling in a volcano. They're polar opposites and youd think they were 2 different characters

[@DahLekKnight]

Damn good piece of lore. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[@connorross5341]

This is just so breathtaking, sad, emotional, and tragic. You have done a wonderful job giving more depth to Angron. I really hope that you get into Angron's best moments in "Angron: Slave of Nuceria," "Betrayer," "Lord of The Red Sands," and "Butcher's Nails." He's one of my favorite traitor primarchs, and I just wanna give the big guy a hug. I love listening to all of your videos! Keep up the great work, buddy! 😁

[@martindaly8265]

Just imagine how loyal angron would have become had the emperor intervened. To have his entire family not only free but saved from certain death. Would love to hear a loyalist angron concept.

[@1ULTRAKNIGHT]

Genuinely, check out neckbeardia's reading of "Fresh Prince of 40k" it has a loyalist + freed of butcher nails Angron. It seems like self insert fanfiction at first, but it's really well written in my opinion. The big gimmick at play is that a fan of warhammer is reincarnated into 30k- not iseki taking over an adult body, but is properly raised from birth on some backwater feudal world, later regaining memories of his past life. Discovered by the emperor's psychic might, he is made cupbearer, and is used to try and work the great game into the Emperor's favor, but not all will be as it seems.

[@Leptospirosi]

The Emperor doesn't likes failures: he likes only the Primarchs succeeding in their struggle, like Corax, Gulliman, Johnson, Magnus, and even Jagatai and Perturabo, despite the mistrust between the personalities. We know how it ended with Mortarion and how tense the things were after his rescue form near death and failure. It happened to Angron, saved at the last minute form defeat and death, and after that there was only bitterness. We must not forget what happened to the two forgotten Primarchs, erased without even the memories surviving.

[@markrtoffeeman]

The butchers nails divided the Emperor from his son Angron. The butchers nails reacted causing pain directly to the presence of the Emperor. It has to be an object of Chaos.

[@lynnusuk2092]

It wasn’t, it’s just archeotech that was recovered and repurposed , big e personally dissected angron to examined it if there was a hint of chaos then there wouldn’t be an angron to be remembered seeing how ruthlessly efficient malcador is in wiping primarchs in imperial history. Not to mention the librarian that entered his mind, watching angron’s memories didn’t sense anything chaos

[@kelman727]

Lynn USUK If he’d ‘dissected’ him he’d be dead!

[@yang9724]

​@@lynnusuk2092 honestly, the fact that the big E, who, at the time could command help from other primarchs, (Vulkan, Perturabo, Magnus....) could NOT find a way to remove the nails. Is pretty bullshit. That it suppose to be an archeotype is a pretty thin justification.

[@systemhalodark]

@@yang9724 IIRC, the nails' installation procedure also involves a lobotomy of some kind. Angron's nails, for all intents and purposes ended up functionnally replacing the lost segment of his brain. He couldn't biologically live without them.

[@lynnusuk2092]

kelman727 you underestimate the skill of a post human psychic gestalt, fulgrim once cut off the head of one of his captains for asking him a question then told Bile to stitch the guy’s head and body back together the cut was so perfect that Bile could do it without any obstacles in bringing a decapitated man back to life. Besides a primarch’s healing capability is pretty insane, Russ was able to regenerate his one of his heart after the burning of prospero where magnus punch through his armor crushing it

[@ragnarian]

angron reminds me of that one scene from the incredibles (i think) of the hero saying 'i saved your life!' and the guy he saved replying "you didnt save my life! you ruined my death!" cant think of anything more true for angron

[@thecommentguy9380]

Emperor: Offers to aid Mortarion in destroying the tyrant Also Emperor: Yanks Angron from his honorable death and leave his people for dead

[@Nyctophora]

Knocking it out of the park here Wolf Lord!

[@mpbiggame1010]

fantastic video- thank you!

[@kennycai8695]

There is another angle at play here. I remember reading somewhere in the Horus Heresy novels that before the Emperor met Angron, he had struck a bargain with Nuceria's ruling elite (you know, the same corrupt people that enslaved Angron and his kin). Nuceria will peacefully incorporate itself into the Imperium, and the condition the Nucerian elite had was that the Emperor take care of their Angron problem for him (the exact wording is lost, so I am not sure). The Catch-22 scenario is this: if the Emperor had reneged on his deal and helped Angron, other planets will not trust the Imperium and make future peaceful incorporation attempts more difficult, whereas helping Nuceria meant he has a very resentful son that will turn on him at any given opportunity. It seems the Emperor sacrificed Angron's wants for political reasons, and now we see the consequences of this one decision.

[@7503funkymonkey]

True, but a third option was to broker a ceasefire and take all of Angron's gladiator brethren away from Nuceria along with him.

[@dlomb343]

This has been the best primarch week yet, in my opinion - which, as a loyal smurf, comes as a complete surprise. Great stuff!

[@LaughTalePainting]

I think the Emperor of Mankind truly saw deeper into the psychological damage done to Angron and took the best course of action, which was to keep him from Terra and launch him into the only thing Angron had any education and experience in that benefitted the Emperor of Mankind, which of course was the Great Crusade. I think bc the Emperor knew Angron was not as civilized or similar in stature to the other Primarchs that bringing him to Terra wouldn't have done any good whatsoever considering how the Butcher's Nails were affecting him, he basically couldn't be trusted to act rationally and he knew he took a gamble by sending him to the War Hounds but that he could keep Angron busy until the Nails could be addressed by the Mechanicus.

[@kelman727]

By this point in the story the Emperor and Arkhan Land have already examined Angron only to realise there’s nothing they can do for him.

[@thomash49]

"We shall let you slaves go with your lives, with the condition that you give us the slave known as Angron." "I am Angron..." "And I am Angron!" ... "Clearly not..."

[@jaredlanglinais613]

I like to think that Angron was put in stasis when being teleported away from the planet. He was taken back to Terra & there the Emp did his analysis with Arkan Land where they discover that the nails cannot be removed. Only after that discovery does he wake Angron up & teleport him away to the World Eaters.

[@andrewsmith7573]

Wow what a stunning short story

[@davidlewis9346]

Love this video!

[@skullthrone8882]

I lost all respect for Big E here. He turned Angron into what he is more than the nails ever did.

[@NemesZoltan87]

Woww that was amazing! Honestly I'm no big fan of the "kind" Emperor. I still think He is a calculating, cold hearted tyrant. "-What have they done to You?!" - the Emperor said. Yes, because they destroyed Angron's mind. The mind that made him so special. Not a killer, but a killer of pain. Someone who takes pain away, sorrow, grief, frustration, leaving only peace and life. I think Angron would have been the perfect diplomat inside the Imperium of Man! War, insurrection? Just imagine someone arriving, setting up a meeting between people who are waging war because they have been hurt... taking away their pain, to see clearly; without all the rage, they would only see each other, brothers and sisters... human beings. He would be a perfect peacekeeper.

[@logangrimnar3800]

Angron slaughtered all his fellow gladiators on the battlefield, the Emperor pulled him out before his rage could clear and he could see what he had done. He knew Angron would never recover or be of any use if he knew what he had done.

[@tannhauser270]

Never late for a wolf lord upload

[@joevines3428]

I wonder how "bad" the lost Primarchs where, when the Emporer was ok with Angron.

[@Wisdomisgood448]

I think they fell, or betrayed in some manner. Since they also had their own legions and the other Primarchs had met them.

[@joevines3428]

@@Wisdomisgood448 I have a theory one of them was a Xenos sympathiser, maybe he was discovered by them, and the other perhaps was raised in a society that used AI. Angron didn't have any "dangerous" ideas in comparison.

[@zazempireorigin7818]

I wonder if GW will release a reason for why the Emperor did not help Angron

[@hunterharbach3317]

This music definitely sets the tone. I'd love to have it playing in the background for my table games

[@perisdim]

i would have liked to see custodes teleported down on the planet with the Emperor, wipe Angron's pursuers and rescue his comrades. Then the survivors could have joined the World Eaters as Angron's personal bodyguard.

[@HenchmenNo616]

Please, more novels from the great crusade! More Primarchs in their heyday, even legion team ups we haven't heard before. Has there been a scene with Sanguinius trying to interact & bond with Angron? And Angron just back handing the kind gestures of everybody's favourite hawk boy or maybe does something unexpected

[@vortex_1336]

It's mentioned by a couple different Primarchs that everyone loved Sanguinius. I remember lines from both Russ and Horus saying as much. Even Curze seemed to like Sanguinius and he was a psycho.

[@kelman727]

Remember, by this point in the story both the Emperor and Arkhan Land have already examined Angron and his implants only to realise they can’t remove them without killing him.

[@nickd5158]

Ahem. *pulling out collection plate* Blood for the blood God!! Blood for the blood God!!! A drop or a quart, whatever you want to give. Doesn't have to be yours!!!

[@XanderShadow]

What I want to know, is why, if he had the entire sodding legion in orbit; did he not drop them in once he knew not only that Angron was there; but WHERE he was specifically? He could have come down at the head of Angrons legion, saved him AND his 'family' with ridiculous ease; and won the loyalty of his son, rather than end up making him a bitter enemy.. Said it before, and I hold to it; the emperor never gave a damn about his creations. They were tools; and he was upset someone had 'broken' one. Hell, as other novels have said; Emperor never spoke to him after this meeting. Never spent time with him or helped him. Just dumped him on the legion and buggered off. Plus.. that line of "Time is short"... why? he spent MONTHS with some of his sons on their 'homeworlds' learning about them, doing challenges and such with them. Or with them on Terra after taking them back there.. Even sodding Curze on Nostromo. But with Angron? "Oh, you're broken... meh, going elsewhere."

[@S3Cs4uN8]

'"Time is short"... why?' - Because this is the same Emperor who went AFK mid-war to go play mad scientist in his basement with the Webway Project (something that I still to this day have no fucking idea why he kept it so secret) and basically ignored all his sons and the shitstorm that had already started to fall. The guy who supposedly learned from all the petty despots and tyrants of humanities past so as to not make their mistakes only to proceed to make the same mistakes but on a scale far worse than any before him had done. So you know, it's entirely in character for the Galaxy sized dumbass that is the Emperor.

[@maxgaj3015]

The various unanswered questions that are raised from this short story are also what Lorgar asks Angron in their meeting at the site of the death of Angron's rebel army on Nuceria. So it seems like at least Aaron DB is aware that the lack of explanation for the emperor's actions is unsatisfying to a reader, and uses it as a plot device for Lorgar to convince Angron to come with him to Terra: to get those answers.

[@DarkNaifu]

Big E: '..we have not the time..' Me: 'THERE'S ALWAYS TIME..!'

[@dalaminaubis7822]

It's somewhere in between. After the situations he found most of the primarchs in, he was disappointed. Maybe even a little disgusted. He found his son mutilated and broken. Fighting a losing battle, draped in rags, bound to die in the snow alongside starving slaves. The Emperor was so unnerved by it all, not to mention seeing him rip one of his personal guard in half, ruled by rage and the onset of madness. So he didn't want to be in his presence any longer, didn't want to take him to Terra, just wanted him out of his sight. Send him off to do his duty and try not to think about it all. In that moment, the Emperor's greatest flaw was shame. And I'm sure he spent a great deal of time reflecting on how he failed his son in that moment, unable to reach across that gap that divided them and try to make things right. That seems to be one of the hardest things for fathers to come to terms with. So in that sense, perhaps the problem was, in that moment at least, that the Emperor was far too human.

[@godzhilla3066]

what if by the time Emperor had arrived, Angrons Band of Brothers had already all perished? then anything else is a waste of time

[@ziounford]

I like how he names some of his old gladiator companions in betrayer. my favorite primarch besides Magnus.

[@ffejpsycho]

But, sympathetic doesn't matter... empathy is what was needed!

[@brucedavidson9499]

18:22 I believe in a theory that explains this- Half of the primarchs were always going to go traitor no matter what happened. By mistreating angron he insured that other primarchs like Sagninus would remain loyal.

[@ericasandberg7286]

First the story of Perturabo breaks my heart and now this! 😭 Angron,,,

[@gerainedoss7123]

Dropping a comment for the KZbin overlords. Great video, great channel

[@jcephrie]

I gotta hear/read a conversation between Angron and Corax. Their similar-ish but divergent backgrounds would make for an interesting comparison.

[@mattwetherille6539]

I think that the Emperor did what he did because he knew that Angron would never willingly follow him. take for example the Emperor meeting Russ and Vulkan. With them, he went as far as dressing up as a regular human and doing a bunch of stupid trials to win them over. But I think that he knew that Angron would always see him as the embodiment of the high riders, and anything he would try would be pointless.