The End Of Atheism - Thor Ramsey on LIFE Today Live

The comedian shares the arguments and issues that frame the theme of his latest novel, "The Honest Atheist."
Informative, inspirational, and entertaining interviews every weekday at noon (US/Central)

[@cjgt77]

Being atheist don't mean you're a nihilist or ultimately think life doesn't matter. Life is more meaningful to atheist for the here and now; not a false promise of something later.

[@21ipanemagirl]

i'm sick of religious people who at this day and age reject facts and still believe in fairy tales.

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

Hello. I am an atheist. I define atheism as suspending any acknowledgment as to the reality of any particular god until sufficient credible evidence is presented. My position is that *_I currently have no good reason to acknowledge the reality of any god._* And here is why I currently hold to such a position. Below are 11 facts I must consider when evaluating the claim made by certain theists that a particular god exists in reality. To be clear, these are not premises for any argument which _concludes_ there to be no gods. These are simply facts I must take into account when evaluating the verity of such a claim. If any of the following facts were to be contravened at a later time by evidence, experience, or sound argument, I would THEN have good reason to acknowledge such a reality. 1. I have never been presented with a functional definition of a god. 2. I personally have never observed a god. 3. I have never encountered any person who has claimed to have observed a god. 4. I know of no accounts of persons claiming to have observed a god that were willing or able to demonstrate or verify their observation for authenticity, accuracy, or validity. 5. I have never been presented with any _valid_ logical argument, which also introduced demonstrably true premises that lead deductively to an inevitable conclusion that a god(s) exists in reality. 6. Of the many logical syllogisms I have examined arguing for the reality of a god(s), I have found all to contain a formal or informal logical fallacy or a premise that can not be demonstrated to be true. 7. I have never observed a phenomenon in which the existence of a god was a necessary antecedent for the known or probable explanation for the causation of that phenomenon. 8. Several proposed (and generally accepted) explanations for observable phenomena that were previously based on the agency of a god(s), have subsequently been replaced with rational, natural explanations, each substantiated with evidence that excluded the agency of a god(s). I have never encountered _vice versa._ 9. I have never knowingly experienced the presence of a god through intercession of angels, divine revelation, the miraculous act of divinity, or any occurrence of a supernatural event. 10. Every phenomenon that I have ever observed appears to have *_emerged_* from necessary and sufficient antecedents over time without exception. In other words, I have never observed a phenomenon (entity, process, object, event, process, substance, system, or being) that was created _ex nihilo_ - that is instantaneously came into existence by the solitary volition of a deity. 11. All claims of a supernatural or divine nature that I have been presented have either been refuted to my satisfaction or do not present as _falsifiable._ ALL of these facts lead me to the only rational conclusion that concurs with the realities I have been presented - and that is the fact that there is *_no good reason_* for me to acknowledge the reality of any particular god. I have heard often that atheism is the denial of the Abrahamic god. But denial is the active rejection of a substantiated fact once credible evidence has been presented. Atheism is simply withholding such acknowledgment until sufficient credible evidence is introduced. *_It is natural, rational, and prudent to be skeptical of unsubstantiated claims, especially extraordinary ones._* I welcome any cordial response. Peace.

[@bootskanchelsis3337]

(" I define atheism as suspending any acknowledgment as to the reality of any particular god until sufficient credible evidence is presented. ") I do too, because that is an accurate definition. :)

[@user-nx9nx1ge1x]

1. There's plenty of literature on that topic if you want to pursue it. The entire science of Theology is essentially an incredibly long and almost exhaustive definition of God. 2. One of the facets of God is that He is exceptionally difficult to observe. I bet you've also never personally observed a gamma ray. Scientists still have no means of observing dark matter though general consensus is that there is something there which we can't directly observe, but we know it's there because of the effect it has on the universe which we can explain no other way. 3. I very seriously doubt that. You've encountered me, for instance. Although, "observed" is a very charged word that can shift in meaning quite a bit. I haven't photographed God, by any means. 4. That seems to me to actually be what all committed Christians do, trying to get you to verify their observation for authenticity, accuracy, and validity. We'd want nothing more that for you to test and find it true. 5. You've never heard the Kalam Cosmological Argument??? 6. I struggle to believe that you've found a false premise or fallacy in all 100 plus arguments for the existence of God. I'll grant many are such that you could do an entire college semester on all the discussion around just a single premise. Premises can take a life of their own. Also, this same criticism can unfortunately be leveled against every argument for atheism. I guess we've all got to keep working. 7. The entire universe; time, matter, energy, and reality itself 8. Rattling off a bunch of examples when X turned out to be Y does not constitute proof that this example of X must therefore be Y. It doesn't matter how many times the wife turned out to be murdered by the husband in the past; that's insufficient to put a man in prison for murdering his wife this time, simply because that's what usually happens. You need evidence in each case. 9. I'm sorry to hear that. Many devout believers also never experience anything that could clearly be called miraculous in their earthly lives. Bear in mind how many people witnessed a miracle while Jesus was walking the earth. He fed 5000 people, but how many of them knew the miraculous nature of what was happening? He fed 4000 on another occurrence. He walked on water, but only the 12 saw it. He turned water into wine, but his mom, some of his disciples, and the servants were the only people who knew. 500 people saw Jesus alive after he was crucified; only 500. Assuming every single last person understood what was happening, let's put the figure at about 10,000 people who saw a miracle. Out of possibly 200 to 300 million world population. So 1 : 20,000 to 1 : 30,000 odds or so that you'd see a miracle, even during the height of one of the most miracle-dense periods of human history. Assuming few people knew during the feeding of the multitudes, then it could be as low as 1 : 500,000 odds that you'd be aware of seeing a miracle even being alive during Jesus' earthly ministry. 10. The entire universe. Big Bang cosmology sort of describes in vivid detail creation ex nihilo. 11. Then you haven't been presented with enough? You've actively been presented only with those that have been sufficiently been refuted, or you wouldn't have been presented with them, perhaps? Even if a miracle had never actually happened since the first century, you'd not destroy the faith. There's many denominations who hold to cessationism; they agree with you on this point fully and are devout Christians, so it's kind of unnecessary to add this 11th point. I hope that you enjoy the conversation. I do like having your argument presented in such a concise and logical manner. I hope that the tone comes across friendly, because that's my intention to spark a fun and lively conversation about these very fascinating topics. Trying to achieve something like that in KZbin comments probably fraught with peril, but when the trolls arrive we might get some really good comedy. Cheers.

[@bootskanchelsis3337]

@@user-nx9nx1ge1x ("One of the facets of God is that He is exceptionally difficult to observe ... ") why would a god that wanted everyone to know him be difficult to observe? (" I bet you've also never personally observed a gamma ray.") We can in fact detect and observe gamma radiation. existence of the supernatural? not-so-much ("The entire universe. Big Bang cosmology sort of describes in vivid detail creation ex nihilo.") that is either a rather dishonest take, or a rather misinformed one. ("... but when the trolls arrive we might get some really good comedy.") do you consider the likes of me a troll ? sounds rather dehumanizing, deflective and/or dismissive imho. .

[@EclecticOmnivore]

@@user-nx9nx1ge1x [butting in ...] 1. Spent decades on that. @Theo_Skeptomai 's comment still applies. Besides, your comment just shifts the burden. 2. Any god worthy of the title can both trivially hide from or show itself; if it exists ... it can convince anyone that it exists, or some other set of gods exist, or that no gods exist at all. It also doesn't need anyone to speak for it, nor is a mere mortal qualified to do so. 3. Related to #2; I don't think any mere mortal's experience qualifies them as a speaker for any god. Nor is their confidence evidence outside of them ... being personally convinced. 4. See #3. 5. Kalam. So, Allah exists and Muhammad is his final prophet? The Kalam is an argument that gets lots of traffic, but isn't why anyone who thinks gods exist ... think gods exist. Why not focus on what actually convinces people, and not abstract and optional arguments? Why waste people's time on that or ... the reply you gave to #1? 6. I agree with them. That said, why not promote what personally convinces you and not these abstractions that nobody actually -- personally -- uses themselves? 7. AKA: "Look at the trees!" 😕 8. Yes. Evidence; something sharable! Now, what about what the OP wrote? 9. Argumentum ad Populum. Plus, when you wrote "500 people saw Jesus alive after he was crucified; only 500.", I have to ask ... do you ever speak for former Christians who have read versions of the (books) of the Bible? The reason why is this: Writing down that 500 people experienced something is *one* report/story/... . It is not 500 reports/stories/... . 10. See #7. 11. Ask your god(s) what to say to both of us. Here's something that I *earnestly hope* you are doing; challenge the many *liars for Christ* that make Christianity and by extension Christians look bad. I know that they do not speak for all Christians, though when they are not *effectively(!!!)* called out, it looks like Christians in general have no problem with the loud liars speaking for Christianity and Christians. In other words: Be a mensch and do something. We're sick of doing almost all the work!

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

@@EclecticOmnivore Great comment. Please keep posting!!!

[@colwem]

Why do religious people think “uncomfortable implications” is a good refutation to “it’s all made up”. Your argument just does the opposite. It supports the suggestion that the only reason you cling to faith is so you don’t have to face reality. See if you can spot the flaw in this argument: “I don’t want to live in a world with no meaning. Atheism implies a world with no meaning. Therefore atheism is wrong”

[@bootskanchelsis3337]

Dishonest representations of what atheism is ... typical apologetics. .

[@21ipanemagirl]

christians need to accept that others dont think like them. there are many instance where not having abortion is a really cruel option.

[@jamesparson]

It is against their religion to accept that others don't think like them.

[@830toAwesome]

So Thor wrote a fiction book based on a fictional person called Horton Murray (not an actual person) to sell his apologetics without actually talking to any actual atheists and uses that premise to strawman Nihilism. Sounds like a total waste of time.

[@bootskanchelsis3337]

("Sounds like a total waste of time.") yup. .

[@vvanheukelum]

Wasn’t that also the plot for the terrible movie “God’s not dead”?

[@830toAwesome]

@@vvanheukelum Yep. Apologetics is stale stale stale.

[@downenout8705]

Lmao, you get to pretend there is a god to give your life meaning, but because you say so, the atheist can't pretend that life has meaning without a god.

[@geirchistiankarlsen2879]

There is no God. Deal with it.

[@tad001]

Why is your god so special, so that deity requires your devotion? If you look at religion as a human created construct, it follows, that morals are a human made construct! So it could be argue that morals are a social construct created by humans for them. So the policies carried by the most evil person match up with your personal beliefs, then its all supported by your religion. Thus a good word spoken by an evil man is all good by your religion?

[@scottgodlewski306]

Gross.

[@user-rj8py9ld3j]

Why did Jesus say *_the children of the kingdom_* shall be cast out into outer darkness? There shall be weeping, and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). It is because many believe they belong to God, but they do not. They believe that God’s Son is God Himself; they do not know Him, the only true God, the Father (John 17:3). In their hearts, they glorify and worship the Son instead of the Father, even after the Son said that *“true worshippers will **_worship the Father in spirit and truth”_* (John 4:34). Jesus tells us in John 16:27 that the Father loves those who believe he came out FROM Him. He further tells us that life eternal is to know both him and God the Father, yet they refuse to listen. This is the reason Jesus is the way, truth, and life that leads to the Father [God] (John 14:6). It is the Father that judges the world through Jesus (John 12:48-50), and it is the Father who will instruct His Son to say to them, “I never knew you, depart from me” (Matthew 7:21-23). They will cry to Jesus “Lord, Lord,” believing he is God and _continue to reject_ the words of God sent through Jesus. People always say “they are one” without understanding *_how_* they are one, which is in spirit and agreement. We must become one in spirit and agreement, even as they are one (John 17:22). Otherwise, Christ shall deny them entry before his Father which is in heaven.

[@bootskanchelsis3337]

"“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." -Matt 10: 34 that jesus? *eyeroll

[@user-rj8py9ld3j]

@@bootskanchelsis3337 He came to bring justice because we all know the ways of peace, but have fallen from it with our sin. We all know what is right and wrong. It has been written on our hearts. You know very well what is right and wrong; the question becomes do you always choose it? The wages of sin is death.

[@xbfkms]

Thor you nailed it! Thanks!

[@toddsayles2674]

Weak. I love when one side decides the argument of their opponent to argue against. Essentially, because they can’t actually win a real argument they decide what they want to argue against. Morals don’t rely on a god. Before Judaism and before Christianity pagan religions had morals and laws. Also, god doesn’t exist so all the morality found in those religious texts were created by humans. Anyone listening to this nonsense is just a biased individual to begin with.

[@toddsayles2674]

How about an honest evangelical claiming Jesus is coming back in their lifetime. How many lifetimes do they have to be wrong before this tired argument is ended.

[@lifetodaytv]

@@toddsayles2674 Honesty is typically not the issue. Bad hermeneutics is. Dispensationalism has been dealt with in other interviews.

[@lorettabirkemeyer5958]

So this a fiction book

[@lifetodaytv]

@@lorettabirkemeyer5958 Yes.

[@freshair_music]

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