The Eternal Debate: Who Created Spider-Man?

[@lucianonmarazzo436]

I feel like Spider-Man and Marvel in general was a collaborative effort and would not be what it is today without the work of many people.

[@ItsOver9000Productions]

Steve Ditko frustrates me so much because we probably could've figured alot of this out if he had just been more open. I understand his world view but goddamn it's frustrating

[@KenLieck]

Ditko did indeed address the 1954 Halloween costume -- in his usual oblique way. According to the Daily Mirror, toy dealer John Cimino, who owns the ultra-rare costume, notes that the Ben Cooper company and Marvel Comics' offices were only about 10 miles apart in the 50s & 60s, and says that he contacted Ditko with photos and questions about the costume in 2014 but received only a typically Ditko non-response, saying: "The burden of proof is on the person who makes the assertion, claim, charge. Some clippings, etc., are not rational proof of anything but some clippings, etc."

[@ericjohnson9623]

Yeah, Ditko would say that about most things, including the adult content he worked on with Eric Stanton, that Stanton confirmed Ditko worked on.

[@Robd07]

​@@ericjohnson9623he did some comic porn and denied it

[@magdavillafuerte]

The Spiderman suit has also been compared to the one used by The Spider in the 30s movie serials.

[@timsmythfilmsandanimations]

But really, would an adult who did not have kids, and lived in NY really know about that Halloween costume? Ditko seemed like an honest guy, if he said he designed the costume, I believe him, he had no reason to lie. I think maybe someone at Ben Cooper's saw the Spider-Man comic, and Ben went over and made a good deal for both companies, probably for free, so not to sue.

[@vvond62]

If nothing else, I don't believe that Kirby designed Spider-Man's final costume. I have a huge amount of respect for him as an artist, but it's all too clear that he really struggled to draw Spidey whenever he had to. Yeah, the cover to Amazing Fantasy #15 was done by him, but I feel Ditko's inking had a lot to do with it turning out so nicely. Any other time, Jack's Spidey tends to look REALLY off-model. Half the time he didn't even give Spider-Man his chest or back emblem.

[@joncarroll2040]

While I agree with you, it is worthwhile to note that Kirby was notorious for drawing characters off-model, even ones that he was indisputably the creator of. It's really prevalent in his X-Men where he constantly forgets that the Beast isn't supposed to have gloves.

[@RememberTheDead]

My general consensus is that as brilliant as Kirby is (I actually think that individually he has a good case to be the best artist between that trio) his claim of creating Spider-Man was a stray empty boast as he's more or less the only one who backs this version, while Lee and Ditko both have their own backers to corroborate. I think what's trickier is that Spider-Man's character was a developing thing split that grew over the Ditko-Lee and Lee-Romita runs (at least) and you can see the thumbprints of Lee (the down-on-his-luck relatable nerd, with Spidey's trademark quips and hip dialogue being obviously Lee-infused), Ditko (the angry misfit, a trait that noticeably gets downplayed after Ditko leaves the title) and Romita (the wholesome family kid in elaborate romantic woes, which stuck post-Romita) in the character as we understand. So I usually have it as Ditko-Lee-Romita.

[@rickrivers2021]

The elaborate romantic woes were already a part of Lee/Ditko. Gwen starts out basically the same as Liz Allen (popular girl who's curious about this mysterious loner Peter Parker) and then becomes more of a Betty Brant (dramatic, poor communicator, hates Spider-Man but loves Peter). Mary Jane was a tremendous addition that Romita brought, but Lee/Ditko did have a long running love triangle as well with Liz and Betty

[@magdavillafuerte]

Kirby became arrogant over time, so it's not weird that he took credit for Stan and Steve. Kirby also said during an interview that Stan had no involvement in plotting the stories but thanks to John Romita Sr. We know this to be false: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there".

[@donoso1312]

@@magdavillafuerte damn how many times are you gonna copy paste that wall of text

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@donoso1312 I don't see anything wrong with using said wall.

[@dakotah7683]

Weird you say Ditko had Peter as an angry misfit when plenty of times in the book during his run is pretty happy and polite.

[@TitularHeroine]

That quote by Lee about artists not being co-creators..... Just..... >sigh

[@camilocuba6927]

Great video. I see some people debating who designed Spider-Man, and for me at least, it’s clear that it was Ditko. Kirby’s designs at that point were very simplistic. The FF, Hulk, and Ant-Man all had very simple designs with maybe Thor being the most elaborate. Even looking at his designs after Spider-Man, like Iron-Man and the X-Men, had simple designs. Ditko on the other hand, tended to be more elaborate with his designs, starting with Spider-man, then Doctor Strange after a few issues had a more elaborate costume, and even his Iron Man redesign was was less bland than the original Kirby grey/gold clunky version. It wasn’t until later in the 60’s where Kirby began to design more elaborate costumes, especially during his run on Thor.

[@KardboardKenny]

Bob Kane. just ask him.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

John Romita made clear Stan Lee was deeply involved in plotting Spider-man, as ge would have a 3 or 2 hour reunion wirh Romita were he would tell Romita what personal life threads wanted Peter to face and what would be the villain of the story.

[@MrEdWeirdoShow]

Right, because although artist Kane, who created many other characters, also created Batman, it was instead really created by Bill Finger, who was a mere writer? Keep dreaming.

[@KardboardKenny]

@@MrEdWeirdoShow too bad tour immune to the truth. look up Kane "Batman". and by created, you mean plagiarized The Shadow? take your millennial azz somewhere else w/that bs.

[@d-manthecaptain1382]

What is the origin of that myth about Steve Ditko creating a scene of an anti-war protest, and Spidey swringing overhead angerily shaking his fist at them, only for Stan Lee to write the dialogue to be Spidey cheering them on? That story is pretty iconic, and it's certainly one that gets brought up whenever people are discussing the Marvel Method, but it never happened. At least, not in Ditko's run, there is a scene with Peter showing his disinterest a protest in issue 38, but the details do not line up to the story whatsoever, so who first spun this web of lies that's become such a well known piece of trivia?

[@nilus2k]

This is an even handed analysis, which is a nice change. I feel like in the last few decades Stan Lee is often talked about as some evil force and Kirby and Ditko were saints. The truth is a lot of Marvel was collaborative and they all had a hand in creating it. Late in life they all had a beef so they told versions of events that favored them

[@DavidTSmith-jn5bs]

Exactly! Stan constantly praised Jack and Steve in books like "Origins of Marvel Comics." While Jack in his later years wanted to claim credit for creating every character he drew as well as claim writing credits, there are not only Bullpen members who knew differently, but even some of Jack's biographers gave conflicting reports of the developments of some of his characters.

[@ctbinary42]

The truth is in there somewhere. All I can say is that the 1960s were a different time but corporations never change

[@timothymarkin4481]

People tend to forget about Eric Stanton, with whom Ditko shared a studio. There were elements of the fetish comics that Stanton & Ditko worked on that found their way into major elements of the Spider-Man character. And Lee’s assertion that Amazing Fantasy was to be cancelled already was false. There is a letter from Lee to the reader in AF 15 promising that Spiderman (sic) will be the comic’s ongoing feature; and proof exists that the space shuttle story in ASM 1 was created for AF 16. However, due to Atlas/Marvel only being allowed eight titles a month per Martin Goodman’s deal with distributor Independent News, Amazing Fantasy was actually cancelled so Jack Kirby could revive the cancelled Two-Gun Kid comic, dated Nov 62.

[@timsmythfilmsandanimations]

This is interesting. I too feel that while the comic was cancelled, it was not cancelled before they went to press with issue 15. Also the work job number, or whatever it is called on Amazing Spider-Man #1's first story would date it around the time of Amazing Fantasy, and the name Spiderman without the hyphen runs rampant in the story, except for the three chapter titles, and the first caption about Amazing Fantasy and Spider-Man.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

Answer. ALL THREE. Kirby was involved with the creation of a character called Spiderman with Joe Simon, which eventually evolved into The FLY. (No, I don't buy Stan's "bug on the wall" story!) Lee and Kirby created an embryonic Spiderman which Ditko was supposed to ink. Ditko thought it was too similar to the aforementioned Fly character so Stan told Ditko to scrap everything, keep the name and try something else. The rest is history.

[@Vicshade]

Great run down of the history. Ditko wrote some essays in Robin Snyder’s the Comics! publication about the Spider-Man history. It’s interesting reading, also his essay on why he quit.

[@michaelhorning6014]

Interesting that Kirby's conception of Uncle Ben as a retired police captain was revisited in Gwen's dad Captain Stacy. Captain Stacy became like a second father figure to Peter before the Captain's death.

[@DavidTSmith-jn5bs]

Captain Stacy, before he died, even called Spider-Man "Peter" and asked him to look after Gwen.

[@ElvingsMusings]

Ditko's change to make Uncle Ben into a warm working-class caregiver rather than a gruff police captain who was "down on a teenager" is a very interesting change. In screenwriting terms that would count as a major alteration.

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@ElvingsMusings Although It could also have been a Lee idea to make Uncle Ben a warm person. I say this because a warm old couple going by the same names of "Ben and May" had already appeared in Strange Tales #97 and Stan was known to recycle plots from stories he had made before, for example some Journey into Mystery stories had elements from some Strange Tales stories. Also i think the policeman version of uncle ben might have inspired Judge Irwin Hall, the Father of Hank and Don Hall (Hawk and Dove), crrated by Ditko while working at DC.

[@ElvingsMusings]

Given that Lee had worked on Marvel Method a while back it's likely the Strange Tales Ben and May were also by Ditko, considered that he indeed is the artist on that story. @@magdavillafuerte

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@ElvingsMusings But Ditko didn't recycle old things that much and there are examples of other recyclings in some other stories. For example in Amazing Fantasy the concept of mutants was introduced before Lee decided on doing a title. And before Ditko Replaced Kirby on the Spiderman development, it seems Lee had already chosen the names of the old relatives, then when he told Ditko, Ditko decided to draw Uncle Ben with the same appearance of that other character.

[@gregorio1580]

Might be one of my favorite videos from your channel.

[@rolandkatsuragi]

My only question regarding Lee's involvement, is whether his idea for a bug themed super teen was conceived before or after, seeing Kirby's attempt to repurpose the Silver Spider for Marvel?

[@SpFlash1523]

Lee said one of the major inspiration for Spider-Man was Richard Wentworth AKA "The Spider" from the pulp fiction magazine.

[@joncarroll2040]

My feeling is that Kirby brought the idea to Lee. Lee looked at Kirby's drawing and thought it wasn't creepy enough, and assigned the idea to Ditko with the addition of the radioactive spider and Ben's death. Ditko created the costume we know which may be similar to Kirby's.

[@Dendood]

In 1958-9 Martin Goodman decided to shut down Marvel. He ordered that no new material be produced by freelancers. All remaining published material was inventory that was already in house. And the month of August 1959 no comics were published by Marvel at all. Enter Jack Kirby. He came in with a portfolio of new ideas promising Goodman he could create books that would sell. This meeting was the foundation of Marvel's Silver Age. One year later, after the Fantastic Four proved Jack right, Goodman/Lee approached Kirby for more new books. Essentially, "What else have you got?" Kirby opens his portfolio and pulls out the Silver Spider. Spider-man is not the Silver Spider. But there would be no evolution, no concept tweaking towards what we know and love without those pages with "Spider" at the top. So no, the spider on the wall business is an invention to protect Marvel's intellectual property rights against freelance policies that were at risk of being thrown out in a court of law. To admit the work was a collaboration would risk Freelancers having claim to providing more than simple work for hire, but the production of intellectual property. Something a court of Law assigns significant value.

[@mohamadsufihaziq1692]

While it's possible that Kirby also has influence on the creation of Spider-Man, ultimately Lee AND Ditko are the creators of Spider-Man. But I would also include John Romita Sr. as "creators" for shaping Spider-Man and Peter Parker as a character that we know today

[@darkskinvince4380]

Valid

[@magdavillafuerte]

The artwork from Spider-Man’s first story in Amazing Fantasy #15 is at the Smithsonian Museum. Here the curator discusses it with David Currie, the author of Ditko Shrugged: "Sara Duke said to the author, "When you see the art, you see the dialogue. And in this case, there is real dialogue between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko that show they were both very creative forces in the creation of Spider-Man. There are marginalia notations in Stan Lee's hand writing, some of which Steve Ditko honored and ones where he didn't. You don't get a sense of that from the published version of the comic book, but in the original art it really shines through." The notes would have been added by Lee while the art was still in pencil stage as instructions to Ditko before the artist inked it, and they were less employed to alter plot narrative but mostly cosmetic in nature or designed to appease the edicts of the Comics Code. As in one example from a panel on the third page, where a car narrowly avoids Peter Parker, sending him crawling up a wall in avoidance and instantly aware of his new super powers, Lee writes underneath the panel, "Steve, make this a sedan, no arms hanging, don't imply wild, reckless driving." which Ditko observes and makes the required change. Or, more tellingly, in another from a panel from the eighth page, which shows the villain's face as he flees from the scene of his crime, "Steve, omit crook! Show door slamming!," Lee writes, but Ditko ignores the directive, aware of the story's final revelation and the necessity to reveal the identity now in order to set the later scene and enable Lee to script his famous "With great power there must also come, great responsibility" line".

[@timsmythfilmsandanimations]

I don't know, giving someone creator status after 41 issues have already been produced seems pretty generous.

[@jimgillespie6109]

Good video, and it pretty much verifies what I've read before. However, about the web-shooters, there are other possibilities as to their inspiration and creation. Fox Features' Spider Queen (circa 1941) had web-shooting bracelets. Also, it has been claimed that Ditko's office mate, legendary fetish artist Eric Stanton, may have suggested the idea of web-shooters.

[@AdahnFlorence]

It was me Sources: Trust me

[@NOIDEDU]

It was me piss off

[@donoso1312]

Are you bob kane or something?

[@carloscrecelius9597]

How dare you not give me the credit I deserve as co-creator?

[@ElOctopodo]

This was a very fair, well researched video! Massive congrats, I was not expecting this level of detail. The only thing that I would add to this would be further context to which perhaps Kirby was speaking at the time. Stan Lee's failure to recognize the autorship of his colaborators seems to stem from a perception he held since he started in the industry (even going as far as stating it in a zine he self-published at the beginning of his career): The guy who comes up with the rough idea for a character is that character's creator. In his mind, his uncle Martin Goodman was the real creator of Captain America because, as editor, he assigned Simon and Kirby to come up with a superhero strip similar to The Shield. I believe in his latter years, the main reason Kirby claimed he was Spider-Man's creator is because he was viewing the matter through Stan Lee's lense of autorship. With Kirby deep in legal battle with Marvel, he might have assumed Lee's views equaled Marvel's, and that this flawed notion was the given playing field for his claims. That being said, while Kirby was most definitely the one who presented the idea to Lee, - I do believe Ditko and Lee should be the ones credited for the Spider-Man we know and love, as Ditko states.

[@KnightLineArtYT]

I'm inclined to say it was mostly Lee and Ditko, given who we know Spider-Man as. But I don't doubt that Kirby was the initial draftsman, given both Lee AND Ditko mention the 5 pages he worked on. Though I guess that'll also depend on how much of Kirby's initial design is similar to Ditko's version of Spider-Man. The designs in Spider-Man, including many of his early villains feel much closer to Ditko's overall style compared to Kirby's. Also, I feel like Romita should also get a lot of credit, even if he's post original team. He refined his personality in the latter half of the 60's to help round Peter Parker out.

[@ElvingsMusings]

Jim Shooter said that he had seen the original Kirby pages in the 1980s. So it was still there at Marvel HQ around that time. Shooter said that Kirby's Spider-Man resembled Captain America's costume.

[@SpFlash1523]

Ditko said that he considers his Spider-Man design to be a separate creation from Kirby's Spider-Man design.

[@SpFlash1523]

​@@ElvingsMusings Joe Simon also described it as "Captain America with cobwebs."

[@MrEdWeirdoShow]

The guy who first dreamed up the old original pulp magazine that featured The Spider? That was the creator. In comic form, artist and plotter Steve Ditko added The "Man" from Superman (1938), making it Spider-Man (in 1962). What did editor Stan Lee contribute? He gave the order to modernize The Spider, which was an old fave of his. So obviously, the character as we know it today is mainly Ditko's.

[@petermj1098]

Ditko and Stan were both right and wrong about things. Ditko was right he was a creator and deserved more credit but he was wrong in injecting his terrible Objectivism into Spider-Man. Stan was right on what were the right writing decisions for Spider-Man but he was wrong on not giving Ditko proper credit.

[@rasputinsbeard3899]

Looking at the story for the Silver Spider, it seems CC Beck had his origin idea for Captain Marvel down pretty early.

[@FemboyCatGaming]

One fact not mentioned in this video is that Stan Lee was always super "self depiracting" over his comics with Ditko, which when you know the marvel method means he either unsure of ditkos commerical potentional (being generous) or just insulting him. When you read an old spiderman comic and the narration boxes go "wow I'm so sorry half of our issue was personal drama with no fights cant believe we made such a booboo dear believer" it isnt Stan's choice to make half the issue that its Ditkos. Lee was such a people pleaser (like its on the level of modern parasocial influencers in how disturbing it is at times that Stan cared this much about pleasing 10 year olds and 19 year olds) that I think that's what ultimately drove the wedge with Ditko. Stan was willing to change everything about his comics, how he talked, his politics, and how he portrayed the bullpen to appeal to his fans, which would offend Ditko the individualist objectivist. If you actually read Stan's old bullpin bulletins hes very open that A). he didnt write any full scripts and B). there actually is no bullpen and that Kirby and Ditko worked at home studios lol.

[@dakotah7683]

There was also not talking to Ditko for a year and not paying him for plotting credit

[@timsmythfilmsandanimations]

@@dakotah7683 Marvel paid Ditko for plotting from issue #25 on, I think that is why there was no conversation between Lee and Ditko, or at least one of the reasons.

[@dakotah7683]

@@timsmythfilmsandanimations Indeed

[@Bonzulac]

It's not eternal because eventually there won't be insane people.

[@jayguero2123]

Ironically, there seems to be alot of black and white cut and dry mentality over who created Spider-Man instead of acknowledging the grayness that it’s always been.

[@marcelo-ramos]

You get ALL the credit for the objective point of view. We have enough accounts for either side, but too few objective accounts of the actual facts. Thank you.

[@evanowensby8895]

What a fantastic video!

[@philippealain-art]

To claim that Kirby was involved in the creation of Spider-Man is completely false. His "version" has nothing to do with what Lee wanted, which is why he asked Ditko to create the visual aspect of the character. Kirby's sketches confirm this, and anyone can see it. There's no debate; Spider-Man was co-created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. Ditko's departure was actually a good thing, since thanks to John Romita, the Romita and Lee duo were able to take the character to a whole other level, and we got some of the best Spider-Man stories ever.

[@matthewwarbington4125]

so what about 50/50 credit to both i guess

[@philippealain-art]

@@matthewwarbington4125, The Spider-Man character is a co-creation of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, giving each a 50% credit.

[@luciferfernandez7094]

If you consider “creation” as “brainstorming” it was Kirby, Lee and Ditko. If “creation” is “execution”, as in designing the character visually, it’s characterization, plot and so on, it was Ditko. Maybe Ditko + editorial input and embellishments by Lee, but then any creation under a editor would be a co-creation. This debate is redundant: Spider-man is way too different to any other Kirby-Lee work. Just run the damn comics through the app they used to discern the different authors of the Old Testament and make a very obvious statement official.

[@magdavillafuerte]

The artwork from Spider-Man’s first story in Amazing Fantasy #15 is at the Smithsonian Museum. Here the curator discusses it with David Currie, the author of Ditko Shrugged: "Sara Duke said to the author, "When you see the art, you see the dialogue. And in this case, there is real dialogue between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko that show they were both very creative forces in the creation of Spider-Man. There are marginalia notations in Stan Lee's hand writing, some of which Steve Ditko honored and ones where he didn't. You don't get a sense of that from the published version of the comic book, but in the original art it really shines through." The notes would have been added by Lee while the art was still in pencil stage as instructions to Ditko before the artist inked it, and they were less employed to alter plot narrative but mostly cosmetic in nature or designed to appease the edicts of the Comics Code. As in one example from a panel on the third page, where a car narrowly avoids Peter Parker, sending him crawling up a wall in avoidance and instantly aware of his new super powers, Lee writes underneath the panel, "Steve, make this a sedan, no arms hanging, don't imply wild, reckless driving." which Ditko observes and makes the required change. Or, more tellingly, in another from a panel from the eighth page, which shows the villain's face as he flees from the scene of his crime, "Steve, omit crook! Show door slamming!," Lee writes, but Ditko ignores the directive, aware of the story's final revelation and the necessity to reveal the identity now in order to set the later scene and enable Lee to script his famous "With great power there must also come, great responsibility" line".

[@timsmythfilmsandanimations]

Yeah but then since the idea came from Joe Simon, you would have to credit him as well as a creator, and perhaps C.C. Beck as well, with that little kid becomes an adult super hero idea. I think while the lee/Kirby Spiderman obviously started the ball rolling, I think the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man though inspired by the Kirby, is their own separate creation. There is really nothing to point to that goes back to the Kirby version. (luckily) Just read Antman if you want to know what a Lee/Kirby Spiderman would have been like.

[@BrianLCS]

I'm sure many of the heroes created in the 60s were a collaborative effort. I'm sure the never really thought they would become so big.

[@FemboyCatGaming]

I don't think its that absurd for Ditko to ink Kirby since he also inked some early Kirby FF, the original incredible hulk issues, and Daredevil #1 among other books.

[@Dendood]

Yeah but, if that cab driver hadn't been late your dad would never have met your mom. And you wouldn't be here. If Kirby hadn't opened his portfolio and pulled out a book with "Spider" in its title, there would have been nothing for Lee or Ditko to revise.

[@davidfarrington4308]

Great video! Thank you sir!

[@lsgreger2645]

It is fascinating to watch these "who created him videos" Another channel covered Pulp bat themed detectives from the 1930s. Turns out it was a major theme in characters in the 30s and Kane pretty much was following a trend of bat themed detectives. Early Marvel kinda reminds me of the early days of Image comics. Where the creators were quickly hiring writers and artist to put out works of varying degrees and no one has a great contract. Like the McFarlane/Gaiman lawsuit...

[@abachniv]

It's a collaboration. Who did what doesn't matter. Spider-Man exists now because of Stan and Steve. That's all that matters. Sure, throw Jack in there too. They're all great.

[@Getwright-]

I know its a fake but i do love that Kirby spiderman. Did they use that to create Amalgam Comics Spider-Boy? (Also you should do a vid about that whole marvel vs DC event)

[@TitularHeroine]

And Spider-Boy in turn was a large inspiration for Ricochet, when Peter adopted several alternate identities.

[@jamesakrap3824]

Great video do you think you could do a video on the creation of Thor, and debate between Stanley and Jack Kirby

[@DanielDeLeon69]

Stan Lee and Steve Ditko

[@deliusmyth5063]

Your presentations are excellent.

[@jozefserf2024]

Stan Lee was a parasite. A charming parasite, but a parasite nonetheless. Basically, virtually everything Spider-Man came from the head of Steve Ditko. Stan was far too busy keeping his uncle Martin Goodman (Marvel's owner) off his back.

[@TheMagnificentMongoSlade]

Crazy how there are fights only over popular characters, never any doubt or debate over who made flop characters. When something works, everyone wants credit.

[@smoothjamcalifornia1210]

Because there's money at stake...

[@stizanley3987]

Great video

[@carloscrecelius9597]

Conceptually, Stan . Visually, Ditko. Like most early Marvel books, it was a true collaboration. But I believe that the artists carried the bulk of the storytelling chores. Stan was stretched pretty thin in the early days of Marvel.

[@ElvingsMusings]

Conceptually and visually, it was Ditko though. That's the Marvel Method

[@carloscrecelius9597]

@@ElvingsMusings the way it worked was Stan said I've got an idea for a new character, he's a kid , he's in high school and he has spider powers. This and this has to happen in the story.Make it work. Stan's concept, Ditko's work. That was the Marvel method. Writer's concept, but the artist doing most of the work.

[@ElvingsMusings]

@@carloscrecelius9597 Except here we have documented evidence that the name Spiderman and the concept of him being a teenager all pre-existed him. LEE LIED ABOUT THAT.

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@ElvingsMusings Wrong, according to Ditko Stan came up with the name because he liked Hawkman as a name.

[@ElvingsMusings]

Joe Simon has produced evidence, including a pre-1960s logo of Spiderman. That's case closed there. @@magdavillafuerte

[@Tonydash23]

Awesome video , TY

[@OomaGooma]

I’ve always preferred John Romita’s Sr.’s Spider-Man over Ditko’s.

[@jayguero2123]

Without Ditko setting the foundation first, there’d be no Spider-Man period.

[@OomaGooma]

@@jayguero2123 I’m fully aware of that. I still prefer the way Romita drew Spidey.

[@jayguero2123]

14:46 I’m sort of in agreement with a few people who’ve said you’re being too kind to Stan. I think you should have played that clip of him in the Steve Ditko BBC documentary to really drive home how passive Stan was on the whole matter if you were limiting yourself to one example.

[@magdavillafuerte]

The artwork from Spider-Man’s first story in Amazing Fantasy #15 is at the Smithsonian Museum. Here the curator discusses it with David Currie, the author of Ditko Shrugged: "Sara Duke said to the author, "When you see the art, you see the dialogue. And in this case, there is real dialogue between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko that show they were both very creative forces in the creation of Spider-Man. There are marginalia notations in Stan Lee's hand writing, some of which Steve Ditko honored and ones where he didn't. You don't get a sense of that from the published version of the comic book, but in the original art it really shines through." The notes would have been added by Lee while the art was still in pencil stage as instructions to Ditko before the artist inked it, and they were less employed to alter plot narrative but mostly cosmetic in nature or designed to appease the edicts of the Comics Code. As in one example from a panel on the third page, where a car narrowly avoids Peter Parker, sending him crawling up a wall in avoidance and instantly aware of his new super powers, Lee writes underneath the panel, "Steve, make this a sedan, no arms hanging, don't imply wild, reckless driving." which Ditko observes and makes the required change. Or, more tellingly, in another from a panel from the eighth page, which shows the villain's face as he flees from the scene of his crime, "Steve, omit crook! Show door slamming!," Lee writes, but Ditko ignores the directive, aware of the story's final revelation and the necessity to reveal the identity now in order to set the later scene and enable Lee to script his famous "With great power there must also come, great responsibility" line".

[@jayguero2123]

@@magdavillafuerte Yes, and unlike the museum willing to acknowledge the collaborative process of writing comics, Stan for the longest time raked in all the glory of a character’s creation by not acknowledging the artist (or the artist plus as far as the Marvel method is concerned) as equal creators in the process. Good on the museum to spread the word though, the world should really know it.

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@jayguero2123 The problem is that we shouldn't downplay the acomplishments of Stan like many other people do. You can't deny there's also a cult of kirby just like there's one from stan and one from ditko and the main issue is that people keep insisting on seeing this as a black and white situation when it was clearly more complex.

[@jayguero2123]

@@magdavillafuerte Yes, I made that comment in this section before. However, notice how you just shifted points. There isn’t a dispute as to Stan had any involvement or not. There is evidence to prove that he was was involved, we all agree with that. The issue lies with Stan himself unwilling to acknowledge his collaborators (namely Jack and Steve) and himself as co creators. All three of them were co creators and Stan’s implication of himself being a “creator” diminishes the creative input of said artists. Just like there are so called “cults of Jack and Steve” there is also a cult of Stan who vehemently defend the man who had everything, Vs the men who received nothing. I’m starting to think you may fall in that category I’m afraid.

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@jayguero2123 I don't think i do. I simoly believe that the three of them deserve equal recognition with creating the marvel universe. Although i don't deny the cult of stan exists, my main issue is that people should be more critical of the cult of jack too, specially considering that they seem to have a really closed minded view of the issue. Abraham Riesman for example is part of the cult of Kirby and he was criticized by many who analyzed his work as having problems analyzing his sources, for example he claimed the the blogger Barry Pearl was shocked after having a conversation with Dick Ayers but Pearl denied this and they were both actually laughing in the conversation and there's also the fact that he claimed that Stan said "racist stuff" in his last years, but he not only has not shown any evidence, but it makes no sense considering Stan is known to have criticized racism even before the 60s in stories from Strange Tales and Gunsmoke western and during the 60s he insisted to his artists that they should put more black peoplenin the background and he helped create many of the first black superheroes, so Reisman claims clearly hold no ground and he should be received with strong skepticism.

[@betelguese3909]

I say Ditko created spiderman. After he left, the entire tone of the book changed, almost as if they had changed writers.

[@AceLM92]

I'm a Jack Kirby fan and I find it hard to believe that he had any contributions to Spider-Man as we know him. Jack might have had some contributions to a prototype, but the Prototype isn't the one we think about when we hear the name Spider-Man

[@joncarroll2040]

The closest thing to Spider-Man's design Kirby ever came up with is the original X-Men which has a very similar composition including the contrast between the blue and red/yellow elements. I find it very hard to imagine that Kirby would have added the web motif to the costume as his designs were engineered specifically to be fast to draw and Spider-Man is anything but.

[@TitularHeroine]

As part of your Ditko series (as it were) will you do an episode about the creation of Dr. Strange? I'm curious how Ditko reconciled that in his mind, given that Objectivism had no room for the mystical.

[@MrKurtBarlow]

The Artists were very generous providing Stan Lee a career. Think of all Stans great work of his own...

[@jayguero2123]

Wdym? His “Stan Lee Media” characters like 7th Portal, The Grifter and The Accused are quite the hit these days 🤣

[@donoso1312]

Kirby was like, ok dc heres your entire cosmic myghology lol

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@jayguero2123 I think that's not a fair comparison. Stan seemed to have no problem doing good stories without Kirby or Ditko. Silver Surfer with John Buscema and later the story with Moebius are clearly well made. Although they didn't sell that much in the US at the time, they were really popular in europe and nowadays those stories are subject to a lot of comic book analysis. There's also the work he made with John Romita Sr, Jim Steranko and Gene Colan, which did had a good quality and it's clear he was involved in those stories. The easiest argument that can be made is that the marvel universe was made by Stan, Jack and Steve and as such trying to chose one over the others seems childish to me.

[@jayguero2123]

@@magdavillafuerte That’s exactly the point though. This video presented Stan as unwilling to acknowledge the artists as a main creative force (ie by labeling himself and said artists as co creators) by stating the guy who “came up the idea” should be considered the (implied but never outright said sole) creator of a comic. All I mentioned were the characters Stan created without the input of comic book artists doing the heavy work, not just strictly Ditko and Kirby, but in your case, Steranko, Romita Sr and Buscema. The result without the input of any of his old pals is his “Stan Lee Media” characters.

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@jayguero2123 if you analyze said work is clear there was little interes on his part there and that it was mostly for fun. Also we know that in silver surfer: parable he had full creative control and it ended up being great.

[@walterhoward5512]

Lee does have a point about this whole creator debate not being a thing in other mediums. For example, Haim Saban is credited with creating Power Rangers, but he did not write or direct Power Rangers and more than that the basic concept and a fair amount of the footage comes from a (better) Japanese show.

[@jaketakenobreak]

while power rangers does usually fall short in comparison to any given season's sentai counterpart there are a few gems in pr, see rpm vs go-onger and some even to similar if not the same level of enjoyment or quality (In Space, Lost Galaxy, S.P.D)

[@carlgibson285]

I would credit all three as creators since they all brought something that contributed to the success of Spider-Man. Kirby brought the name, Ditko brought the costume and origin, and Lee brought the character.

[@jayguero2123]

For the average piece of literature, sure the author gets full credit. But comics are a *visual* medium and require an artist (or in the case of the Marvel method, an artist plus) to tell the story. Otherwise, a few paragraphs on paper wouldn’t be as exciting nor be anywhere near as successful.

[@mindandbody7971]

Only a fool would say Haim created the Power Rangers. He adapted and produced the show, much like any adaptation of foreign works in Hollywood today.

[@walterhoward5512]

@mindandbody9427 Legally, as per the rules governing this kind of thing in movie and TV productions, Haim Saban created Power Rangers and is credited as such.

[@spiderzilla7o7]

The music creeps me out

[@cecilDisharoon]

I bet you have an outline for a video about Eric Stanton and Spider-Man. I'd say you've composed what more fans than not would agree is the most logical thread, and I like how you went back to the sources in journalistic fashion.

[@marcpjoyner]

You say a vague credit for plotting. I’m not sure why that is vague, particularly when it is separated from writing. I’ve always kind of looked at it as Lee and his artist probably went over the story a bit, the artist then drew the pages and had a kind of final say in the story. Then Lee wrote all of the word bubbles. It makes sense to me

[@nohbuddy1]

Damn when are we getting the Hate Monger in the MCU

[@MrKurtBarlow]

Amazing Fantasy 15 cover Art by JACK KIRBY Larry Lieber Stan's brother contributed more to Marvel than Stan did.

[@Robd07]

I collect all the stuff Steve Ditko before Spiderman. Very little is talked about that. Most of his stories are as if Ditko had some connection to the supernatural.

[@CountShockula]

It's very similar to the Bob Kane/Bill Finger Batman situation. I credit Ditko for actually creating the character

[@magdavillafuerte]

Wrong. The artwork from Spider-Man’s first story in Amazing Fantasy #15 is at the Smithsonian Museum. Here the curator discusses it with David Currie, the author of Ditko Shrugged: "Sara Duke said to the author, "When you see the art, you see the dialogue. And in this case, there is real dialogue between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko that show they were both very creative forces in the creation of Spider-Man. There are marginalia notations in Stan Lee's hand writing, some of which Steve Ditko honored and ones where he didn't. You don't get a sense of that from the published version of the comic book, but in the original art it really shines through." The notes would have been added by Lee while the art was still in pencil stage as instructions to Ditko before the artist inked it, and they were less employed to alter plot narrative but mostly cosmetic in nature or designed to appease the edicts of the Comics Code. As in one example from a panel on the third page, where a car narrowly avoids Peter Parker, sending him crawling up a wall in avoidance and instantly aware of his new super powers, Lee writes underneath the panel, "Steve, make this a sedan, no arms hanging, don't imply wild, reckless driving." which Ditko observes and makes the required change. Or, more tellingly, in another from a panel from the eighth page, which shows the villain's face as he flees from the scene of his crime, "Steve, omit crook! Show door slamming!," Lee writes, but Ditko ignores the directive, aware of the story's final revelation and the necessity to reveal the identity now in order to set the later scene and enable Lee to script his famous "With great power there must also come, great responsibility" line".

[@CountShockula]

Yep opinions vary.@@magdavillafuerte

[@timsmythfilmsandanimations]

But Ditko doesn't, he has said many times that it was a co-creation.

[@olliehearton]

In Ditko's final published essay "Down Memory Lane" (which can be purchased by itself from his indie publisher Robin Snyder, or as part of the final paperback collected volume of "Ditko Complains" from Synder or Amazon) Ditko stated that one of his greatest regrets of his artistic career was not saving/photo copying the unused Kirby Spider-Man pages before they were discarded. Not archived, but tossed out. So if those pages do exist I doubt that they'd be in any condition which could be salvaged. Edit: your comment about Stan purposely using the word "consider" as to not give concrete credit is correct. In a 2007 BBC interview Jonathan Ross got Stan to break character long enough to admit how he really felt: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZi1i4JqZ7iclZosi=QSsRsQEVGocShCD1

[@CRUCIFi777]

The boss’ nephew gets to write the narrative, of course Dittoko would parrot his Aliester Crowley loving buddy.

[@karlozols816]

DITKO! Stan was known for stealing other people's creations and getting credit, while leaving other people like Ditko and Kirby in the shadows... :(

[@mattermat1925]

According to inker Joe Sinnott, Kirby had "come up with a treatment for Spidey that Stan didn't like and rejected", so the final version of Spider-Man will have had more to do with Ditko, than Kirby.

[@TevyaSmolka]

I personally maintain Stan lee and Steve ditko created Spider-Man way more then jack Kirby in my opinion.

[@genericyoutubechannel3790]

He should get credit for his contributions though

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@genericyoutubechannel3790 i can agree with that

[@DanielleA2023]

What 1 character other than SheHulk that lee created when not teamed with Jack or Steve

[@drsbranch-wn2vx]

It’s interesting to note about the lack of credit when it fact it was a collaboration with the artist then taking the majority of work. What I suspect is that, as succinctly stated, the media was dying so it took an enormous effort to revive it. Thus, artist and writer were joined and, I suspect, their were promises made of sharing in the success as time went. It seems evident, based on Ditko and Kirby’s later departures that the sharing never happened. Ditko was focused on letting his work speak for itself and I respect such a viewpoint or philosophy. Although Kirby poked fun at Ditko, it seems obvious that Kirby’s work speaks for itself as well. Both artists were giants and they truly elevated comics to an art form and left a significant void with their deaths. As for me, growing up poor, 12 cents for the comics provided me with material to read before I was old enough to go to my local library. In addition, I ascribe my fascination with anatomy and eventual career choice to Steve Ditko and his remarkable talent in not only detailing the physical body but also the emotional turmoil in facial expressions. Still, I do note that his most famous creations wore masks so words and action were necessary to accomplish the same.

[@drsbranch-wn2vx]

There, not their. Thanks auto-correct.

[@nunyanunya4147]

tl:dw? SOMEONE WHO IS DEAD NOW!!! NOW: the mouse owns all. the mouse owns all.

[@Cervando]

I think it's even more complicated. IMHO, DC's Golden Age Tarantula inspired Spider-Man significantly. He very much resembled the Kirby version that Ditko sketched. He too has a web firing gun, to swing from and trap villains, and could climb walls and ceilings. When he fired his web gun it went "thwwwwwpppp", and Tarantula was even called Spider-Man, same exact spelling, by the media in his comics. It's even possible that Ditko was inspired by Spider Queen, when he changed the original web gun to wrist mounted web shooters, fired by a button in the palm.

[@Dendood]

It's been established that the web shooter ( and spidey signal ) were the inspiration of Steve Ditko's studio mate, Eric Stanton. Thank god for roommates.

[@Cervando]

@@Dendood And who's to say that he hadn't been inspired by Spider Queen's identical web shooters?

[@Dendood]

@@Cervando That I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you if he met the Pope. Was a side sleeper. Or drank warm milk before bed. All I can tell you is Eric Stanton was the source for Steve Ditko's web shooter. Not Steve. Not Stan. How or where or when Eric summoned the suggestion is perhaps a question left for Heaven. Thank the Gods we have lots of questions... it's not easy filling an eternity with small talk.

[@jamesdroegemueller301]

Kirby created the Fly for another company prior to the creation of Spider-Man. If you read the Fly, it is a really close prototype of what would develop into Spidey. Kirby did the same with Fantastic Four, and comparisons to his Challengers of the Unknown to FF clearly demonstrates that Kirby wrote and drew the comic. This was a common theme for Kirby, including using Thor a couple of times (complete with enchanted hammer) before creating the Marvel heroic version. Kirby should have also gotten more credit for all of his work and creations, and maybe his family should have billionaires like some other PT Barnum-esque editor that stole all the credit.

[@MrKurtBarlow]

The dearth of successful IP created by Stan Lee without Kirby & Ditko is all the evidence anyone with a fragment of a brain needs.

[@abachniv]

Yes, everyone's talking about the Creeper to this day.

[@jayguero2123]

Mr A, The Question, and Blue Beetle have also gotten renewed attention

[@JamieJoeJustice]

I think Steve deserves 75% of the credit imho.

[@badfoody]

Steve Ditko Stan Lee only thought of the name

[@donoso1312]

I find weird jack would claim a character without any base, theres a lot stories about kirby being a stand up guy. Now, i think ditko is the true creator, maybe kirby did what stan claim, just the concept of a spider man.

[@magdavillafuerte]

Kirby became arrogant over time, so it's not weird that he took credit for Stan and Steve. Kirby also said during an interview that Stan had no involvement in plotting the stories but thanks to John Romita Sr. We know this to be false: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Kirby also claimed he came up with the idea of the Hulk after watching a case of hysterical strenght, but this is false as the Hulk could only transform at night at first and the first time the Hulk transformed out of anger was in a story made by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers.

[@donoso1312]

@@magdavillafuerte sorry but i dont buy it, a conversation about plot in a car being enough. Stan can tell jack all he wants but at end of the day he did the page, he can follow or not on whatever stan said. And stan lee has proven to ba an unreliable narrator, I think stan lee is a better writer when it comes to rewrite history.

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@donoso1312 "a conversation is not enough" is a conversation where they are plotting together the story and the convesations were constant ¿didn't you pay attention to the quote mentioned? Also you didn't answer to the Hulk accusation, which is far more damaging. Flo Steinberg also mentioned Stan having conversations with their artists, so i don't understand why you can't accept it's a far more complicated issue.

[@donoso1312]

@@magdavillafuerte maybe relax a little

[@magdavillafuerte]

@@donoso1312 I'm relaxed, i'm simply criticizing your logic.

[@samuelbarden4790]

I'm not sure why Kirby should be given any credit. Kirby had a hard time drawing Spider-Man. Kirby also took all of the credit for Spider-Man forcing Ditko and Stan Lee to respond. Plus Kirby's proof was Marvel's 2nd cover for Amazing Fantasy was totally false. Kirby was not involved in the Silver Spider. The Fly was not a Simon & Kirby Prize or Crestwood production, it was a Harvey comic. Kirby was hired by Simon to draw the Fly and they reused the Silver Spider plot, from the way Simon talked about it, Kirby wasn't familiar with the plot. Trying to give Kirby for a reject plot is pointless. Kirby wasn't involved with the design or the updated supporting characters. If we have to give Kirby credit in the name alone, then we would have to give Simon credit also. But Simon would have sued by now if he had any stake in Spider-Man.

[@fridaynightnicktoons6885]

Stan Lee created JACK SHIT he had a CONCEPT that’s it! Execution is EVERYTHING

[@calibvr]

ditko is why we know spiderman today. kirbys design was generic and the origin that was implied was not nearly as good and didnt highlight any of peters character traits lee and ditko were far more instrumental and while i respect kirby theres a reason ditko spiderman is more popular then all of kirbys creations combined

[@HowToPronouncestuff]

History shows Stan could make magic with multiple artist but those same artist could not do the same without Stan.

[@dai19721]

both

[@blackphoenix77]

All of the above

[@darkskinvince4380]

Ima say ditko purely off of the look and what we see , regardless of the stories he wouldn’t be nearly as iconic if he didn’t look the way he did

[@NOIDEDU]

Does anyone else think the amazing fantasy 15 cover looks wierd? It doesnt look like jack kirby at all, atleast for me

[@Connorgallus]

It's inked by Steve Ditko

[@Dendood]

There is a real possibility that the AF cover was a repurposed concept drawing of Kirby's original pitch of the revised Silver Spider into Spider-man. A pin-up to go with the 5 pages he submitted. Used because it was already paid for. The costume gets revised per Ditko's new design. And a figure is ( awkwardly ) added under one arm to turn the pin-up into a more narrative cover. That's my best guess.

[@martinheguy]

😎

[@57snador]

You left out Joe Simon.

[@j.av.2675]

Amazing comment

[@radiofreeacab]

Idk about spider man, but the AIC k'd KFJ

[@michaelhorning6014]

Alchemy.

[@mindandbody7971]

The idea originated with Kirby. Steve Ditko's admission of those 5 pages is clear. Stan Lee was playing editorial / writer and had Ditko rework the visual concept because he wanted him to look like the boyish nerd. It's well known that Kirby was creating Marvel as he see fit because Lee had NO script. A lot of ideas and suggestions that were often times ignored for what Kirby felt worked better on the pages, but he made sure to put his name down in the credits anyway. I like Stan Lee, but he didn't like to share the lime light back in those days and underplayed the others contributions that actually gave him a career that he was going to quit from. Who created Spider-Man? Kirby and Ditko and certainly Ditko REFERENCED that costume in creating Spidey's iconic look.

[@ElvingsMusings]

I think you are far too polite to Stan Lee. -- Stan Lee outright LIED. Spider-Man didn't originate when he saw an insect on the wall. Stan Lee didn't create the name "Spiderman" that was Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. -- If you followed the system of arbitration used by the Writer's Guild of America, then Jack Kirby would have gotten story credit for Spiderman. He had the rights to the character after his partnership with Joe Simon ended. He brought the character to Marvel. Without Kirby, no Marvel Spiderman. -- It's very likely Kirby came up with the name Peter Parker. He wrote a Golf Comic called "On the Green with Peter Parr" just a few years before. -- Lee never said that he wrote any kind of synopsis for Ditko. In the interview with Tom Defalco he said he never made any formal presentation or script for Ditko. So that means the entire plot of Spider-Man, including the twist of the burglar that Peter let go killing Ben came from Ditko. I actually think that you could make a solid case that Spiderman ought to be considered Jack Kirby and Ditko's co-creation more than Lee's.

[@wiseguymaybe]

I don't know how much creative input Lee had on any of the Marvel characters, seems that his Marvel Method is letting the artists do the panel work and he supposedly adds the words, although Jack Kirby may not think so as he said that he gave Stan the outline of his panels, but I don't know what to believe. What do you think of John Romita Sr stories about Stan Lee, as he said Lee sat with his artists and made the outlines, yet I still don't know how the editor would have time to do this. I still feel that Stan Lee let the artists do the stories and he took the credit. But I'm getting arguements as someone keeps quoting John Romita Sr to back up Stan Lees stories. What do you think? Is John Romita Sr someone you can trust?

[@ElvingsMusings]

@@wiseguymaybe Romita Sr. wasn't there when Lee interacted with Kirby or Ditko, so he's not a witness to their dynamic at all. A lot of Lee's work is essentially on the level of editorial prompts, which in most other cases do not amount at all to having writing credit. So for instance it was the editor of F. Scott Fitzgerald's novel who chose the title "The Great Gatsby" among a list of potential titles the author came up, Likewise it was Batman editor, Whitney Ellsworth who made the decision to keep Joker alive at the end of the first Batman comic but his name is nowhere on the credits. Lee was a genuinely good editor and publicist. If he had been open and honest, we'd talk of him like he was William Gaines or Brian Epstein, manager of The Beatles. Instead he conflated editing/facilitating with the actual writing and so we see that evidenced in the recollections of Romita Sr. and others.

[@wiseguymaybe]

@@ElvingsMusings That;s exactly the info I needed. I appreciate you commenting back, as for being polite when it comes to Stan The Conman, well I guess I should be polite. You see I got this guy I've been communicating with on another comment section on another video who is trying to defend Stan The Conman by using Romita Sr's heart warming words and witness accounts about him and Kirby and Ditko. You know Romita Sr is a great artist, who I have respected, but I'm beginning to wonder about his legitamacy when he reflects on his days with Marvel and what a great writer Stan Lee was.

[@ElvingsMusings]

@@wiseguymaybe Romita Sr. enjoyed working with Stan, and he found steady stable work at Marvel. He eventually he got a job as art director and he wanted to settle down in one place rather than work freelance. So out of deference to that reality, he probably made concessions. That said if you read other stuff Romita Sr. said, then it becomes clear that there was Marvel Method involved there too.

[@wiseguymaybe]

@@ElvingsMusings I am so glad I came across your comments, I actually have watched other videos with Romita Sr interviews, and I would like to take back what I said about his legitamacy, he seemed like an honest person, not a showman like Stan Lee or shady looking like Bob Kane. Just an earnest artist. It just sounds like he was just fooled. Can't blame him, I give credit to Stan for helping him out, but I think Stan Lee would do that for people who are on his side. The great thing about John is he seems like someone who would never put anyone down. He really admired Jack Kirby, and as an artist myself who has been influenced by Kirby, Ditko and old Disney art, Jack definately deserved the title king. Just the same I would like to read more about John Romita and the Marvel Method you mentioned. Also I now adays have a hard time with Stan Lee's story about how the Fantastic Four came about. That he almost left Marvel to write stories he wanted to write about when Martin Goodman asked him to do a superhero team like DC's Justice League. And Lee's wife talked him out of quititng by saying why don't you just write about what you would like to and put it in the comics, you are going to quite anyway. I don't believe this story, basically what publishing company was going to publish these stories he wanted to write? The publishing game is not that easy. Quiting a job at Marvel and try to write on your own????? That would be dumb, and Stan is not dumb. I don't believe he had any intention to quite Marvel. an editing job, as you pointed out, that he could do well. One that Martin Goodman, the publisher and cousin inlaw had gotten fot Lee. But I think that Stan really thought he was some great writer.

[@wileyjdraws7594]

Ditko. There is no debate

[@lucianoldon8710]

from the mind anrd creatorship of Jack King Kirby gave Lee ( a hangers on dingle berry ) the concept for Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four , the. Incredible Hulk, the Mighty Thor. and AntMan was the first Marvel super hero idealized by Jack king kirby ! Lee was just a comic book editor by means.

[@michaelb9683]

Hmmnm

[@rickytoddbotelho9555]

Excellent job. I have no doubt jack came up with the costume design. It just looks like Jack's work. Steve perfected it. There was a wrestler who came up with the initial design. Who came up with a Halloween costume. Jack borrowed the look. ❤😂

[@mercuryman1250]

Stan Lee has always Bern another Bob Kane hogging all the credit and spotlight. But I did enjoy the videos you. Put on this chanbel.

[@Getwright-]

In Kirby we trust. Also just looking at Lee and Ditkos later creations, spidey really stands out. (Too horrific and fantastic for Ditko, and too interesting for lee)

[@bluespaceman7937]

Kirby did not add the more interesting parts for this one.

[@dakotah7683]

The fuck you talking about. Ditko drew a bunch of horror. He made Dr Strange!

[@wokeaf1242]

I realize that because it makes for a good story, you younger people think this was a thing somehow. Who created Spider-Man. Stan Lee did. Before Ralph Bakshi there were illustrated version of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. That does, not, therefore mean that every artist before either movies are just as responsible for the creation of the characters from Lord of the Rings as Tolkien. Not to mention, every single time people argue that Stan Lee is stealing credit, Stan Lee give credit to Ditko and Kirby in those interviews. Spider-Man was Stan Lee's brainchild. Ditko created the look and Kirby help but is responsible for creating he iconic looks of most of Marvel's characters. Except Galactus. His neon colored Galactus SUCKED. Jack Kirby's problem was he was all angry old man energy because his contract with Marvel Comics sucked. So did Stan Lee's. Marvel literally kicked him out the company. But unlike Jack Kirby, Stan was far better at fighting back and made himself associated with Marvel Comics every opportunity he got. Not to mention Stan Lee wasn't dumb enough to use old man energy to show you have problems with certain type of people, Kirby did. This is not a debate. It actually never was. Stan Lee created these characters, Kirby and Ditko helped. That's all there is too it.

[@Dendood]

So tell me the story about how he created DareDevil. You can go back and reread Origin of Marvel Comics if that helps you.... helps you perpetuate the lie. Although it should be said the lies were not for Stan Lee's gain. The lie is to protect Marvel from legal peril over intellectual property rights. Work for hire is thin ice in a court of Law. And the only way to protect millions of dollars in profit is to claim artists were ONLY there to draw pretty pictures. They didn't think up the stuff going on in the pretty pictures. That would subject the company to all sorts of monetary challenges, both past, present and future.

[@MrKurtBarlow]

Simon and Kirby had the initial concept Ditko gave it life. Stan Lee was and is a hack.

[@vasp99]

So Kirby tried to steal C.C. Beck's magic orphan idea which was old by the 1950's. Ditko , who was deeply compromised by Ayn Rand psuedo nihilism , claimed to have created a story about an orphan and his loving aunt and uncle despite Ditko's decades of never ever creating any story based on mutual love and affection . Maybe the simplest explanation is the explanation . Stan had an idea that was fleshed out by artists who would never , ever in their careers bring anything remotely as gripping as they did working for Stan Lee.

[@Dendood]

Never ever creating any story based on mutual love and affection? A story about an orphan and his loving aunt and uncle??? Wee lad, go Google 'the first appearance of Uncle Ben and Aunt May'... keeping in mind that Kirby and Ditko were plotting their stories on those pre-hero Marvel books.

[@hendrixisgod777]

For me, this is a Stan and Jack concept with a huge assist from Steve Ditko. As a designer, if I was brought in on a job after the concept phase, I don’t think I could ever call my self the creator - I’m at best the redesigner. Steve’s contributions were immense but unfortunately for him, it wasn’t at the beginning. Also, spider-man is not just a costume, he has a personality. Who wrote the words? There’s no mention of this in the video. I’ve heard that Ditko and Lee, disagreed with the personality and direction of the character with Ditko wanting a Spider-Man more in line with his Randian sensibilities whereas Lee wanted him more liberal. Lee won out. I think Lee’s instincts were correct on that one. I don’t think a Mr A take on Spider-Man would have worked at all. Nevertheless, it’s been said that it was disagreements like these plus the reveal of Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin that helped pave the way for the eventual separation of Ditko and Lee.

[@TylerStrangelove]

But Ditko disputes almost all of that as lies by Lee, particularly the Green Goblin anecdote that Stan liked to push. One, Ditko fully plotted the last almost 20 issues of their run alone, because according to Steve, Stan stopped talking to him once Ditko demanded plotting credit. At that point, Lee only dialogued Ditko's finished pages with story/díalogue guides provided by Steve. In other words, Stan had no input on the plotting at all ahead of time, and Stan chose this once he stopped collecting the writing check in its entirety. Two, if you've read the last few Ditko issues, it's OBVIOUS Norman Osborn is secretly a supervillain. Aside from being revealed as a business criminal, he knocks out Spider-Man from behind in one story with a single punch (during an era Spidey's super durability was emphasized), and then it's revealed he took a sniper shot a few stories high in open air (i.e. he was hovering), which Spidey remarks would be impossible for a normal man. Ditko rightfully points out that he set up the Goblin reveal before he left, and specifically introduced Norman for the reveal (because he liked the dramatic possibilities of Goblin being tied to his personal life).

[@derekr.8590]

You’re mostly incorrect. Also, being the “idea guy” in comic book creation isn’t as significant as you’d like to think when most superheroes are fundamentally similar: exceptional costumed people who fight crime. Ditko deserves his credit as co-creator.

[@hendrixisgod777]

@@TylerStrangelove respectfully, this isn’t creation. The creation happened at the concept phase. Your definition means that Chris Claremont created the x-men, I mean why not? He wrote most of the issues and defined them as we see them today. Even that statement would be debatable because then it ignores John Bryne’s contribution, plot wise, to the early part of that run. Incidentally, they too separated due, in part, to differences in opinion on the evolution of the characters, but no one ever credits them as the creators of the x-men. Regardless, you’re countering my largely anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence of your own. No one will ever know for sure who contributed what, when and under who’s orders. My position is based on Steve’s own words. He came in too late, imo, to justify the credit of creator (Kirby thinks he deserves that title alone). He was hired after the fact, after the genesis of the character. He did a tremendous redesign and added some supporting cast but the words (at least for the first 15 issues) were written by Stan. The redesigns were approved by Stan, the project manager is Stan. If the redesigns didn’t satisfy Stan’s brief then Ditko gets replaced by another artist. This is artist for hire work. I understand why people get confused by this, and there’s also a little bit of ‘judging the past by the standards of today’ going on. He got artists credit in a time when that was rare, Bill Finger didn’t even get that. I sympathise with his take on being the creator, but he’s incorrect, from the evidence provided so far he’s at best, artist (which by its nature contains an element of co-plotting and design work) and sole plotter of the last 20 issues of his run, I’ve seen no claims for the creation of the personality of Spider-Man. If Stan didn’t sufficiently, credit him for his sole plotting efforts (although, according to you, he was at least remunerated for it), Ditko can either come into the office and demand plots, which he didn’t do; or he can leave, which he did and Spider-Man survived without him. This is a working relationship issue, and there are ways to work this out. Steve chose the path he chose; was he treated unfairly, probably but I see no concrete evidence of creation only a semantics game tailored to put him in the best light possible.

[@hendrixisgod777]

@@derekr.8590 whilst I find your point compelling, please reference my post to TylerStrangeLove for my response.

[@dakotah7683]

Ditko plotted the book and designed the characters in it. He left because Lee refused to give him plotting credits until #18 but wouldn't pay him the plotting money. Combined with Lee not talking to Ditko for a whole year.

[@donoso1312]

stan lee being a hack is the constant

[@o82774]

No one created Spider-Man because Spider-Man is not a creation. It is a production. Spider-Man is a corporate product that had many contributors in its commercial manufacturing process. Spider-Man is not a work of art. Sure Dikto envisioned conceptualized and fleshed it out while Stan was a backseat driver at best and a parasite at worst. Nevertheless Ditko did not bring Spider-Man to Marvel fully formed and manifested under his own recognizance. If the studio publishing commercial mechanism of Marvel did not exist to write him a check for his work Spider-Man would not have been manufactured.

[@TitularHeroine]

Do you think certain stories featuring Spider-Man could be works of art, or certain pages or panels?

[@cha5]

If it had been up to Marvel’s publisher Martin Goodman; Spider-Man would never have gotten off the ground in the first place, being he was convinced that people hated spiders and that nobody would ever buy a comic book about them and he had no idea why Amazing Fantasy #15 sold as well as it did and why The Amazing Spider-Man went on to become a best selling comic. Marvel back then more often than not succeeded in spite of it’s publisher, not because of him.