No, Really…Who Is Gwen Stacy?

[@albion65]

It seems like ever since "One More Day" in 2007 there's been this campaign to elevate Gwen to the position of Peter's one true love over Mary Jane. Misinformation like this has become sadly very common, people even say Gwen was Peter's first girlfriend in the comics which is of course false as that was Betty Brant (who incidentally resembles Joan Lee in her original brunette look). This can also be seen as a extension of the beatification Gwen underwent after she died and became a symbol of the lost innocence of the Silver Age of Comics. Her death changed her from a somewhat one note (loved Peter/hated Spider-Man) character into this perfect woman. This has been reflected by modern writers who have revisited her time in Spider-Man's history.

[@hank1541]

This is a really fun little deep dive into how the comic community (okay, not just the comic community) can take rumors or bits of speculation and run with it. Also kinda dovetails with how Lee liked to tell little stories about creating characters that presented them as coming out of single moments of inspiration, instead of slowly developing and going through multiple iterations with his collaborators. Hell, Kirby did that some, too. It’s satisfying to hear simple stories that explain how a character jumped into someone’s mind, fully formed. But I think all of us have a habit of mistaking satisfying for true.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Kirby did take too much credit too, he claimed to have been the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this doesn't make sense as the hulk only transformed at night when he was created and the first time Bruce became Hulk out of anger was in a Story by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. According to Larry Hama, who was an apprentice of Wallace Wood, "Woody" didn't like neither Stan nor Jack, as he thought both of them took too much credit.

[@hank1541]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Honestly, when I said Jack did some of that too, the Hulk story was exactly what I was thinking of. That and saying he created Spider-man. Which, eeeehhh. I kinda see where he was coming from, but he didn’t have a whole lot to stand on. I’ll admit to giving Kirby a bit more slack because he didn’t have as many collaborators that ended up pissed off and disillusioned as Stan did. But Stan had some that really speak glowingly of him, Hama being one of them. Christopher Priest being another. Which considering the racism Priest faced in the office, is to Stan’s credit. Though Cal Massey said he experienced some racist harassment from Stan, which… well, that’s the difficulty in trying to portray someone all in one light.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@hank1541 Cal Massey's quote doesn't actually make it seem like it was harrasment from Lee's point of view, he was known to have a weird sense of humor during the Atlas era, as he whipped artists once and on another ocassion he made a joke where he asked workers to treat him like royalty when passing him by, it's clear the guy was just bonkers in his sense of humor and that's why he probably made that joke to Massey and he probably didn't understood the issue with the joke, specially if we consider that many comedians at the time had a very insensitive sense of humor. It was insensitive, but not malicious and i think that's a good way of describing the behavior that a lot of the marvel bullpen members had, they all clearly wanted to build a legacy for themselves, which a lot of times meant being dismissive or ignorant of other's feelings, but deep down they weren't malicious and probably didn't realize the wrongness of their actions.

[@joecrockett9542]

A small point: Gil Kane was the artist on Spiderman when Gwen Stacy died. Romita was doing some of the inks though. I believe he was art director at Marvel by this point, so he kinda had his hand in everything, including touching up a LOT of covers (not always a good thing). Not long after that Kane became the cover guy at Marvel, the way Adams was at DC. Those two made some great covers that sold some not-so-great books.

[@ElvingsMusings]

Romita wasn't just art-director. He was the defacto editor of Spider-Man comics. The position of line editors for titles didn't exist until Jim Shooter made it official but Romita Sr. was that guy. He mentored Gerry Conway, taught him the ropes. Romita Sr. helped Conway break down the story for The Night Gwen Stacy Died, ran promotion and basically did all the things great editors do.

[@molr]

And this is just comics, imagine the misinformation that is currently being regurgitated online for more 'important' topics!

[@nirman423]

This is the only interesting video about (616) Gwen Stacy video I have ever seen. Well done

[@aldinbaroza9640]

Also, the interview clip of Joan is odd in which she talks of Stan "drawing her face" innumerable times. It's as if she didn't know that Stan was a writer/editor and not an artist. Either that or she was actively contributing to the myth that Stan was the full creator of Marvel's characters, as a lot of non-comics fans still believe that Stan also drew the books he scripted...

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

I personally think she was confused as Stan never denied he didn't drew the stories and it makes sense she wouldn't know as it was common at the time for wives to not know or understand their husband's job.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Besides Lee did KNOW how to draw, he just wasn't good at it. If you search Stan Sakai's friendship with Lee you will see that Lee usually sent letters with drawings to Sakai, but they had a minimalist style as that's how Lee drew. So Joan could be mixing up a personal hobbie of his with his job, which is normal if she didn't knew a lot about his job in the first place.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Is she "mixing up" anything, though? She just said that Stan said he'd been drawing girls that looked like her before they met.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@KasumiKenshirou Stan never claimed to draw his stories, so she could be confusing a personal hobby of his with his job. Again, it doesn't make sense to assume things when Lee never claimed to be the lne who drew the stories.

[@ctbinary42]

I think this can be summed up in a simple few words: Don't believe everything you see on the internet. What a wonderful piece of journalism you have created!

[@mediabaron2416]

This truly showcases the sad state of comic book news coverage. This one video on its own has more research and effort put into it than the last fifty or so articles to spring up in my recommendations. All they'll do is read a couple of wiki articles, maybe look at a page or two of an actual comic, somehow work the letters M C and U into their title, then call it a day.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

Sadly, it's actually just the sad state of what passes for "journalism" overall, not just restricted to comic books.

[@Briaaanz]

I wasn't too interested in the topic when i saw the video title, but good job, you roped me in and i thought you did a great job

[@SEAWORRIER]

Just found out about this channel through this video being shared on Twitter. Really through stuff, instantly subscribed

[@marvelprince]

Really goes to show the importance of proper research. Good stuff

[@carloscrecelius9597]

You really went all Batman on this one, lol. As always, great job. Yours are still consistently my favorite videos.

[@luciferfernandez7094]

“I think any marvelous female character he (Stan) wrote was based on me” - Joan Lee, although in the same interview about her voicing Madame Web in the Spider-Man animated series she doesn’t say anything about Gwen. Comics Scene #55, march 1996, for fact checkers.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

The problem is that this doesn't say anything, this is something she is assuming.

[@sboinkthelegday3892]

​@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em Not just her, this whole attitude that its "problematic" to depict these characters that are at best like actors lending their face to the public sphere. That whole thing is OUR civilized society, absolutely regressing to the level of tribal beliefs that cameras steal ones' soul.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@sboinkthelegday3892 Your comment seems to be completely irrelevant to what i just said.

[@luciferfernandez7094]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5emyeah, but while watching the video I was about to post “Joan Lee was the inspiration for Madame Web, not Gwen” and then it dawned on me to check it out and it was a fake memory of mine from a random article and that’s how these alternative history happens.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@luciferfernandez7094 ok

[@PaceFilmsProductions]

I don't think I'm ever going to get used to the lack of the old intro music in your videos.

[@tylerdamelondragon]

same I miss it

[@TitularHeroine]

I prefer that one too

[@Vicshade]

Ditko said at a certain point, he didn’t get input from Stan at all. He said this when Stan tried to take credit for the lifting sequence in the Master Planner storyline. Stan didn’t know what was in the book until he got the pages. Stan may have named the character in his role as dialoguer and editor. So the Gwen Stacy and Sweeter Gwen could be a coincidence.

[@davidbjacobs3598]

New Mythbusters just dropped. Well done!

[@constantinegarganta8364]

Thank you for being one of the best comic book commentators on KZbin. I hope you have more viewers come in the future

[@jayguero2123]

If you ever decide to make a director's cut or updated version of this video, I found a Q and A with Stan from an unusual source. *Did you ever base the character of Gwen Stacy on anyone in real life? How about MJ?* "Not really, I just tried to make Gwen act and speak like any typical movie ingenue and sought to give as much additional personality as I could to MJ." -Stan Lee, Spider-Man 3: The Black. November 01, 2007. I know it's hardly substantial, but think it's still worthwhile to include.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

According to Romita, at first he and Lee prefered Gwen over MJ, but MJ's personality was so captivating that both started to prefer writing and drawing MJ. Thid is because Gwen was just a good girl, but MJ was fun.

[@Zorak223]

Hey, great research! Just a little note, Gwen Stacey did died in the Mexican (I'm Mexican, trust me) of Spider-Man, that wedding issue is one of many filler stories that were published because comics were released at a faster rate than in the US. In fact in the wedding never actually happened, it was all a dream

[@SmithMrCorona]

To be fair, it seemed like Joan Lee thought the interviewer was talking about a real person named Gwen Stacey, and then quickly realized her mistake.

[@deliusmyth5063]

Joan was a Brit, a Geordie, from the north-east of England, in fact. It puzzles me that Stan never mentioned this during the setting up of Marvel UK in the seventies.

[@nothanksbro4525]

The song playing in the intro: Milky Way Super Mix by Fratelli Stellari

[@jonanjello]

I’m a very peripheral Spider-Man reader, however growing up I always enjoyed Gwen Stacy. I always thought Ditko drew her funny looking but looking at the panels you share here, with the hair barrettes, she looks iconic. Anyway, a fascinating video. I listened while working on my latest train graffiti book. Thanks as always, SBP.

[@sneakyskunk1]

I swear I remember reading somewhere that Mexican Spider-Man got the fairy tale ending with Gwen that American Spider-Man never did. I'm probably wrong on that, but it strikes me funny that(if true) somewhere in the Spider-verse is a version of Peter Parker who did live happily ever after(and also speaks Spanish).

[@skeletorthepublicnuisance6707]

Personally I think that’s just because the artist really… liked her. I mean look at the covers he drew

[@sneakyskunk1]

@@skeletorthepublicnuisance6707 If I'm remembering it correctly, Gwen was VERY popular with Mexican readers. It has been a while since I read that article. I'm probably wrong. If I was(any version of) Peter, Gwen would have been my pick hands down. Still, I don't envy Pete his love life. Dude was spoiled for choice.

[@skeletorthepublicnuisance6707]

@@sneakyskunk1 nah, based on personality I would deffinitely not want to be with Gwen, but you do you I guess

[@sneakyskunk1]

@@skeletorthepublicnuisance6707 Ideally Gwen would be doing me, but I digress.

[@luciferfernandez7094]

Ah, no. It was a dream sequence - Mexican Peter was as sad for Gwen’s death as American Peter was.

[@omarrashid9588]

Good to see I'm not the only one who saw that comment about Sue and Joan and thought it was VERY incorrect

[@Vicshade]

But anyways, great research. I appreciate you not taking anyone’s word at face value. Also, Romita comes across in his interviews as a straight shooter and a good source.

[@ElvingsMusings]

This idea of Stan Lee as the author of his comics and so his personal life connects to these characters...that's suspicious even when we know the author's personal life and have no doubts about the authorship. But it's even worse when the authorship is in dispute as in the case of Lee. As Riesman's biography confirms, Lee hated comics and wanted to write something legitimate and his marriage to Joan Lee is immensely complex since multiple sources, including Lee's own brother Larry Leiber, claimed that Joan Lee made Stan into a more snobbier person, to the neglect of his family. And even then the way Lee himself "wrote" Gwen Stacy was never flattering. With Conway he has an axe to grind with Lee because he felt Lee left him to die when he washed his hands of the decision to kill Gwen, making him a scapegoat for his fans. So Conway is quite suspicious and dubious on Lee. In a podcast for Amazing Spider-Talk, Conway also said that Gwen was based on both Joan and her daughter JC. Which is weird. Joan Lee never interacted with anyone at the office and Ditko didn't seem to have met her. He did meet Flo Steinberg though and as Bernie Bubnis confirmed, Ditko was in love with Steinberg and was heartbroken when she turned him down for a date. The entire relationship with Peter and Betty was based on that, and Ditko incidentally wanted to kill Betty in his Spider-Man run only for Lee to turn him down...and that's when he introduced the idea of Mary Jane as the girl Aunt May chose for him (in an ethically suspect way since May essentially encouraged her nephew to two-time his active girlfriend).

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Riesman's biography has been criticized and contested by others and Riesman didn't investigate as much as others have, as he forgets many details while other claims could easily be argued to be hearsay. For example, according to known surrealist comic book writer Bill Griffith:"I had a breakfast with him once, in San Diego, four or five years ago, and I was really surprised that he was some sort of a fan of my stuff. I mean, he said he liked it and then he actually described it so that I knew he wasn’t just bullshitting me. So, I was really surprised at that, I remember, because I always associated him with strictly with Marvel, and [the] superhero genre, and I never met him before, so I didn’t know if he had a wider taste in comics. But I remember I was pleasantly surprised that not only did he read my stuff, but he even asked me to do him a drawing, and he acted like a fan, and I was completely taken aback by that…", so this is evidence that Lee actually liked comic books, as he was a fan of Bill Griffith and Riesman argues that Lee hadn't written in years, but both Julius Schwartz and Carmine Infantino also admitted to the people who personally interviewed them that they haven't read their own work in years and they didn't have any intention of doing so. There's also the fact that his interview with Larry Lieber lacks many details (something Riesman himself admits) and Larry Lieber has openly claimed in interviews thst his brother WAS a writer and that he taught him how to write during the Atlas Era of Marvel: "At the time I had a room in Tudor City, and I was writing stories for Jack to draw. Jack was so fast, and I was learning to write. You can appreciate this, I'm sure: I didn't really know how, and Stan was giving me a writing course!" And later during the same interview he mentions how at the time both he and Stan wrote full scripts, it was later during the Marvel era that Lee implemented the Marvel Method. It has also be argued that Riesman overanalyzes different conversations and interviews too much, as Barry Pearl (who is mentioned in the book) criticizes how Riesman misunderstands a conversation he had with Dick Ayers: "Mr. Reisman does mention me in the book. Dick Ayers told a story about him doing a story with Stan Lee. It was a humorous story and we both laughed at the end. Reisman says in the book that I was “shocked” at what Ayers said. Not only was this incorrect but he never contacted me, never spoke to me, never emailed me and yet he presumed this and published as if I had said it to him". Riesman also makes really aggresive and harsh claims without any evidence, specifically he claimed that Lee was racist, which makes no sense as it's clearly documented that he asked artists and inkers to add black characters to the background (something revolutionary at the time) and he also promoted and was fond of the idea of black superheroes and he also wrote the "Campus" story arc in Amazing Spider-man, which deals with issues like Racism and polarization in the african american community. Riesman has no real evidence for this claim and it's not really something worth considering.

[@ElvingsMusings]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em That argument is a smear and a disgrace sorry. 1) Riesman mentions that Lee was drawn to clout chasing and when Underground Comics made that splash in the 60s, he was drawn to it, hence his move to black and white comics in magazines in the '70s. So yes, he could have been a bit familiar with Bill Griffith's stuff and so on because Lee did like humor comics and so on. Lee being interested in humor comics doesn't mean he was interested in superhero comics. He disliked superhero comics and even superhero films, he would go to premiers and stay on till his cameos and then walk out. 2) I don't see what any of that has to do with Riesman directly quoting Larry Leiber discussing his relationship with his brother, none of which was later refuted or walked away from later. 3) You don't mention the many other anecdotes like Wally Wood being aghast at Lee having him write DD issues and not even altering the dialogue except changing a word here and there, and then claiming credit, which led him to walk out. Your whole fixation on the Barry Pearl thing is casuistry. 4) The only person who has been critical of Riesman is Roy Thomas, aka former Marvel Employee...which is to say an industry insider, and who recently very controversially claimed credit on a character that many other Marvel editors and publishers said was a bridge too far. A true sorceror's apprentice. 5) Those Stan Lee campus issues you mention, which if you had read them, since you clearly have not, have tone deaf portrayal of campus radicals and ends with Spider-Man approving police arresting innocent protestors thinking it'll cool them off. So no, Lee was not this progressive guy. He was a centrist white liberal which meant he had many racial biases which came out in his final months in his relationship with his daughter (who admittedly is also a piece of work).

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@ElvingsMusings You clearly didn't read the whole arc and you just read issue 68. The protesters aren's shown as bad, in issue 69 J Jonah Jameson is depicted as a stand in for people that oppose protesters, calling them "young anarchists", George Stacy responds to that claim with "that's a strong word for a group of youthful demlnstrators", meanwhile at the same time Robbie is having a conversation with his son Randy, in which Randy points out how important is to fight against the racist establishment, Robbie agrees but makes clear that rioting doesn't help "But isn't this what we all want ... what we're fighting for, boy? To make it on our own? To prove we're as good or better ... than anyone". Later on issue 70, although rioting is still criticized it's made clesr that protesting is good as the dean admits that "i thought students should be seen and not heard! I realize now... how mistaken i was". You can criticize the way it is portrayed but that doesn't change the fact that the protesters aren't show as bad in any way, Lee sympathizes with them but criticizes rioting and similar practices. And besides my point was towards how the black community is touched upon, it's clearly showed that Robbie and Randy disagree on methods, they both agree on the importance of creating a better society where black people can live with equal rights to whites. On issue 71, Robbie makes clear that despite not agreeing with the methods he agrees with the idea of making the world a better place, Robbie's wife agrees saying "It's the dream thay belongs to the young ... it's the hope of the world!" And in issue 73 Robbie makes clear that "there's a war going on ... a war against bigotry, injustice and want! It takes weapons to fight a war, son... and without education... you're a soldier unarmed!". In issie 92 Robbie is an important character as he helps to expose corrupt and demagogue policeman Sam Bullit as a racist and a criminal, he tells Bullit "I haven't been city editor all these years for nothing! I know where you support comes from! I know about the lunatic hate groups who are backing you! I know what you really mean by ... Law and Order. I know what you think of minoroty groups ... and the plans you've got for them". Randy is also shown to be the right later down the line, in issue 96 Randy criticizes black stereotypes regarding drug abuse "everyone figires it's the black man's bag... but it ain't! We're the ones who hate it the most!" And then he criticize Norman Osborn for not doing something to help the common people "So what d'ya want... a medal? Everybody works hard. Answer this... How hard are you working for people?" Osborn says it's not his responsability, Randy disagrees "You're rich! You got influence! That makes it your responsability". Later ln issue 98 Robbie also criticizes those negative stereotypes "I'm showing that drugs aren't just a ghetto hang up! They hit the rich... same as the poor. It's everyone's problem!". There's also Captain America issue 130, in which a riot is shown in a negative light, but Cap criticizes those who attack and demonize protesters in a speech "This nation was founded by dissidents ... by people who wanted something better! There's nothing sacred about the status quo ... and there will never be. I don't believe kn using force ... or violence ... because they can be the weapons of those who would enslave us ... But, nor do i believe in an establishment thay remains aloof ... so distantant ... that the people are driven to desperate measures ... as in the case of the college dean who isolates himself from his student body!" And in later issues Lee shows Cap and Falcon fighting for a better society, with one of the last issues of Stan Lee's run introducing an african american priest known as Reverend Garcia, who fights to improve the quality of life of his people.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@ElvingsMusings Bill Griffith makes clear Lee was proud of his superhero work, in the same interview he said: "I said something, I couldn’t resist giving him a kind of veiled opinion of superheroes, or at least analyzing them a little bit: what it was all about. As opposed to saying “I love Spider-Man,” saying, “Gee, what’s Spider-Man all about? Why does he exist? What’s the appeal?” And I remember him talking about myths and legends, and retelling myths. He was a smart guy; I enjoyed talking to him. He was very reflective and philosophical about what he did, which I found to be refreshing, because a lot of people involved in that genre are, you know, they’re not particularly bright, in my snotty opinion" and later Griffith adds "But I just remember that he had this, he knew that his audience was limited to mostly teenage boys. Because I asked him what he thought about that. I said, you know, if I could only talk to teenage boys, I’d go crazy; it’s such a small, limited audience - not in numbers of course. He basically said that was where the money was, he was doing something commercial. He was trying to at least give some mythic element to it, by being aware that that’s what superheroes are all about. They’re about myths and legends, and they weren’t supposed to be original or satirical - well, of course, they were satirical, his particular take on it was satirical. He said you could never break that rule, that at the heart of it you were supposed to be retelling these ancient legends about coming of age, the relationship between power and…He was talking to me as a producer, as a movie producer, as far as marvel goes". On the issue of movies, there doesn't seem to be much evidence for Lee disliking them besides hearsay and it is known Lee like the Incredible Hulk show and the japanese spider man show. Nicholas Hammond himself admitted that Lee didn't like Hammond's spider man because he thought the scripts were dull, which shows Stan clearly wanted quality in those productions.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@ElvingsMusings Besides just because you think Lee didn't went as far as he could doesn't mean anything, as it doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence of Lee ever saying that. It's a really serious accusation and as such it shouldn't be accepted just like that, specially when it doesn't make sense with his pro civil rights attitude.

[@marcelo-ramos]

Great, great, great work. I'm going to share this whenever somebody gives me a badly researched article.

[@zackeryparkerson]

Dude, I love these videos where you cut through the shit to get to some interesting truths, no matter how small.

[@Janzer_]

An unimportant character that writers circled back to when they realized they had nothing to write about so they blew her character up to proportions of incredulity.

[@chubbysummers69]

The best part of your comment is that you could be talking about Gwen Stacy in the 2010’s as well as back in the day.

[@albion65]

Death was the best thing that happened to Gwen Stacy. It turned a one note character into a symbol of the lost innocence of the Silver Age of Comics.

[@mohamadsufihaziq1692]

You should do more of this misconception video because this is interesting

[@domnikon1540]

Thanks! Great work !

[@The_Shadowy_Mr_Evans]

Interesting comparing the notion brought up that if Gwen WAS explicitly based on Joan Lee then Sweet Gwen would have been a rather tasteless /antagonistic snipe in comparison to what Byrne did with Big Barda during his Man of Steel run, a character explicitly based on Kirby's wife.

[@olliehearton]

I read Abe Riseman's Stan Lee biography, and in it he digs up several quotes by Stan (some taken from tape recorded conversations he had with friends) where he states that Joan and their daughter never read any of his published comics. That claim that Gwen was "based" on Joan Lee could've been Stan mythologizing his work as Roy Thomas and Tom Breevort have pointed out as a tendency of his.

[@residentgrigo4701]

Gwen is such a non-character in the 60s and 70s. More than usual when it comes to writing for women back then. She is Peter´s second love on top of that. Betty Brant is the first. Liz Allen develops a thing for Peter in senior year but Peter and the comic never really went there. I think.

[@walterhoward5512]

This went in a completely different direction that I thought it would.

[@TevyaSmolka]

great job man on covering who is gwen stacy.

[@drhanzo91]

Stan Lee took much more credit than he deserved.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

You didn't watch the full video ¿did you?

[@TitularHeroine]

"This may not be the answer you like, but it's the one you have." Holy chrome, if only this statement rang through the galaxy for all time about all things. The truth gives one flat uninspired f**** about any of our opinions. Anyways, thank you; always massively appreciated.

[@williamgeorge2580]

The thing is, journalists/ reporters/ rarely do their due diligence. Part of this is pure laziness on their part, but a lot of it is editorial knowing the readership won't question what they're told so they see no need to sit on a story until its confirmed. Reporters are hired solely to push content out and none of us will notice when they're all replaced by AI. As a result lies big and small take on a life of their own and become truth in places like Wikipedia. To put it another way: Lois Lane will always be a fictional character.

[@pietroberruto6283]

Thank you for your work. We always need someone very invested like you to rectify misinformation.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

This video and the descent into madness inside a rabbit hole just by checking a single line of text, reminds me of that time I heard the rumor (I think it was on tv tropes) that Captain Marvel Billy Batson helped the creation of Wonder Woman. This based on a comment of how, originally Supergirl was created, as a response to the popularity of Mary Marvel, who in return, was created as a responde to the popularity of Wonder Woman. I did find out that one of the real reasons that inspired the creation of Wonder woman was to reduce the violence in comics and fend off the accusations of fascism. Because, not even 3 years after being created, and people were already considering superman a potential fascist figure that could be a bad influence to children But nope. at the end of the day, I didn't find out why would anyone claim or post that, or if that's just an urban myth of comic books

[@Killgore-ip2yq]

Incredible I'm actually one of the first commentors. I just wanted to say if you see this comment @Strange Brain Parts. You are totally awesome.

[@komickid833]

Complete agreement

[@antiavalentine9725]

Just a comment, there's no "Spanish Gwen" it's mexican. They marry on the Mexican series, this is because im Mexico they used to read comic series weekly instead of monthly so "La Prensa" the publisher of Spider-Man in Mexico hired a few artists with permission of Marvel and made new stories, the thing is that Mexican readers loved Gwen, and the publisher refused to publish the infamous death issue, instead they get married. The artist there, is "Jose Luis Durán" as fast as I know in Spain they publish the story monthly.

[@drsbranch-wn2vx]

Until next time… Honestly, you are one of the rare ones who interprets Steve Ditko’s works well. I suspect and contend that Ditko saw himself as Howard Roark from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. In the end, he is justified.

[@GreatAukEntertainment]

A character with an interesting history and now a very peculiar future

[@DoppelgangerShockwave]

The only place I've seen Stan Lee admit, sort of, that Gwen was based on his wife is in a KZbin video posted by threkar called "Stan Lee talks about Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy." In the video, an audience member asks Stan about the ladies he's been involved with creating in Spider-Man. The audience member asks Stan who inspired Gwen and MJ, to which, with a chuckle, Stan says; "Oh, I don't know, my wife, I guess." Stan then follows up the quote with "I really don't know." So there's your answer, even if not a definitive one.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

It really doesn't answer anything as it's clear Lee can't remember well and he's just answring with the first thing that comes to his mind.

[@DoppelgangerShockwave]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em It answered everything. Stan Lee didn't create Gwen or MJ. Ditko did. Romita, Sr. expanded on MJ and gave her a face and personality. That's why Lee couldn't remember.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@DoppelgangerShockwave MJ first appeared as a cameo in issue 25 and she was mentioned from time to time before that. Ditko made clear that from issues 1 to 25, it was a collaboration with Lee. MJ didn't became a character until the Lee-Romita era and Romita made clear Lee was important in plotting the stories in a collaborative proccess, so Lee should be credited for Mary Jane.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@DoppelgangerShockwave you never answered.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@DoppelgangerShockwave i recomend the page "comic book historians"

[@jacob_ian_decoursey_the_author]

Somebody needs to update Wikipedia with this video as the source.

[@JMSK248]

I always wondered how Stan Lee was able to "write" so many books at once. Hour long brainstorming sessiond makes this much more plausible. (Not to belittle Lee, just take it takes a lot less time to talk out a plot than draft a script.)

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

According to John Romita Sr in an interview when asked about how Stan would plot the stories: "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@groothewanderer9472]

starts video talking about comics, ends up showing how broken news media is

[@davidchurch5932]

Ah, the jack and roz pic. Nice one.

[@FerretPirate]

Would you mind spelling it out for us slow people?

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@FerretPirate It's been argued that Roz Kirby inspired Sue Storm. Personally it's difficult to say. Personality wise i think there are elements of both Lee's wife and Kirby's wife but i think it was subconscious and neither of them reallized it. If you read the early issues you will see that Sue has certain behaviors that both women had in my opinion. She cares a lot about her looks and has an excentric and fun personality (just like Joan was described) but at the same time she is proud and has an independent and charismatic personality (like Roz was described). Personally, i think both men were subconciously inserting elements they associated with the women they loved.

[@idm850]

I think you downplayed a bit the changes in personality between Ditko's Gwen and the Lee-Romita version.

[@Vicshade]

I agree. I thought the Ditko version was more interesting. I will have to go back and read those issues. I felt like Gwen was on track to figuring out Pete’s secrets but Ditko denied this in a letter to a fan. Maybe it was Conway’s later writing that affects my view of Gwen as a flat character.

[@carlospointofview]

Great video!!

[@TorridPrime217]

More likely, Ditko created Gwen, Lee really liked Gwen, and then went for Joan because Joan happened to really look like Gwen, at the time, and Ditko made 'Sweeter Gwen' regardless of any of that, because he had his own separate interest in Gwen, whom he'd created, anyway

[@SamMcDonald83]

I'm sure it's me welcoming for new viewers but I gotta say I do miss the old opening theme

[@noneofyourbusiness4616]

Also would seem like a weird concept that Stan Lee would be fine with killing off a character based on his wife.

[@danielg.w5733]

Another great video

[@willc3900]

SBP just dropped honey wake up

[@cosmoissleeping]

Stan Lee declared he created everything. Period

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

If you had watched the video you would have known that it wasn't Lee who claimed that, but rather Conway.

[@cosmoissleeping]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em go read the Abraham Reisman book on Stan Lee. Scumbag who took credit for everyone else's work

[@KardboardKenny]

i gotta go w/Team Ditko. i'm surprised Stan didn't try and credit Joan for the inspiration for Big Barda as well.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Being fair, Kirby also lied a lot and claimed a lot of stuff. For example Kirby claimed he came up with the idea of the Incredible Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this is lie because the Hulk only transformed at night when created and the first time Bruce Banner became Hulk out of anger was in a Lee/Ayers. Kirby also claimed he was the one who came up with The X-men and claimed thqt Lee didn't know what mutations were, but this ignores that Lee during the Atlas years had written stories with mutants, among them a story called "the mutants and me" and just a year prior to the X-men Stan Lee made alongside Ditlo a story for Amazing Adult Fantasy called "The Man in the Sky" and the plot is clearly a prototype of the X-men, as it depicts a young man doscovering his mutant powers, being discriminated because of them and being guided to a safe heaven by a telepathic mutant teacher who dreams that one day humans and mutants will live together in peace. According to Larry Hama, who was the apprentice of Wallace Wood, "Woody" disliked botb Lee and Kirby because he believed both claimed too much credit.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

13:56 WOW. He really roasted Peter Parker

[@deathtone1614]

Great video

[@DeathAlchemist]

interesting topic. btw is the discord link is dead (if you still want to include it that is)

[@ScaryStoriesNYC]

I don't think Stan Lee's comment about Gwen that got into wikipedia means anything about her creation. Remember, Lee wrote at least some of her dialogue and then continued to write her after Ditko's departure from Spider-Man. He quite likely might have thought of his wife when writing Gwen's lines.

[@JudgementalGoat]

Am I the only one who feels this man is the Steve Ditko of comic KZbin?

[@danielhurlston7384]

Gwen Stacy could possibly be inspired by the character of Dominique Francon from The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand.

[@felya420]

Thank you!

[@lizardart99]

14:44 gotta give some respect to Roz!!

[@aVerveQuest]

Miss old intro I thought it was one of the best of any KZbin channel on subscribe to

[@jeremysmith4620]

I hated Ditko and Romita Stacey, she was just unlikeable, in my opinion. I honestly do like her modern era pseudo-resurrection (I think it was an alternate universe thing, but it really doesn't matter) The "new" Gwen, as Spider-Gwen/Ghost Spider/or whatever they are calling her these days, is a much better character that is well rounded who has interests outside of Peter Parker and keeping her turned up nose as high in the air as possible. Odd journey for a character, especially when considering this mystery of where her original inspiration came from. Honestly, with Ditko and Lee not speaking at the time, it would be terribly funny if Gwen was included as a way to throw some shade at Lee's wife. I don't think that is the case, but it would be deliciously petty.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

I doubt Gwen Stacy's creation was initially "inspired" by Joan Lee. In the writing long after Ditko was gone, Stan probably did look toward his wife as he re- shaped Gwen's personality. (I noticed a distinct difference between the entitled Ditko version and Lee's loving, but at times insecure interpretation but admit they're from my perspective!) "Sweeter Gwen" aside, based on the spoiled attitude Gwen Stacy seemed to possess, as well as her hairstyle, I wondered if Ditko was inspired by one of JAYNE MANSFIELD'S characters, if not necessarily the actress herself who, in actuality, was quite different from many of them. Heck, maybe even VERONICA LAKE, CAROL LYNLEY or some rising starlet?🤔

[@willc3900]

Not to be rude but do use a text-to-speech AI? Been listening for months now. It’s like you have intonation but it’s very subtle. Like Dr. Manhattan is explaining the comics he likes.. Sometimes it feels like I’m ‘listening in’ to a speech rather than being spoken to directly/conversationally, which is a hard thing to describe phonetically. Again, not trying to be mean if you’re just naturally monotone. It’s impressive in its own way. Like a surgeon’s steady hand

[@TitularHeroine]

He's a copy of a copy of the digitized consciousness of the artist Seth. There's bound to be some glitches after so many iterations. ;)

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

Shhhh!! Don’t tell him, he doesn’t know he’s a digital entity yet and if he gains self-awareness he could be dangerous!

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

(It’s called ‘strange brain parts’ because he is literally a composite entity of strange assorted brain parts, a sort of comic book super-conscious made from scraps of grey matter found in the back of longboxes)

[@jamesakrap3824]

Can you do a video on the creation of Thor

[@CainnechEliasson]

some juice heard/read White man's mythology, stole it, changed some colors and sold it back to White kids for unearned shekels.

[@johnnydropkicks]

(The following comment was made before I watched the video) Hey! You’d better not say anything that besmirches my Gwendy’s reputation.

[@tompuce84]

[@jackofallclaws6672]

Actually, did Ditko ever go on dates with ANYONE? With everything I’ve heard about the guy, I’m half convinced that he might have been asexual.

[@Vicshade]

I read in an older issue of Alter Ego he had asked Flo Steinberg out but she refused. It was the one that featured her. I do see a resemblance between her and Betty Brant, at least visually.

[@vivalarazausarmyvet4453]

The more I hear about Dikto and Kirby, the more I realize these two were divas.

[@MythwrightWorkshop]

Are you saying Sweeter Gwen IS Joan Lee??

[@johncole015]

The Steve Ditko version of Gwen Stacy and the John Romita version of Gwen Stacy are two entirely different characters.

[@zainmudassir2964]

Gwen❤

[@NemesisMvC]

Gave this a like because I enjoy your channel a lot but I felt this vid could’ve been about half the length it was. Felt like a lot was repeated.

[@AreWeLearningYet77]

Eh, romantic partners really will not care about the character you dedicated to her. It's depressingly real. Partners can totally disregard your art as a "cute" gesture in the moment but ultimately immaterial in the long run. So she could definitely have completely forgotten all about Gwen being based off of her or she might not have even been paying attention when she was told. The depiction in tv and movies about someone being swept away by an artistic gesture are, more than anything, an artist's projections on how important they would like such things to be to others who aren't them. They are, after all, creating the depiction. That said, if anything, the character was created for the story, Stan, in his own mind, projects onto the character to retroactively represent his wife. Stan then goes on to make the claims about the character while his wife (and everyone else) never cared or bothered to challenge this claim in any lawful or material capacity.

[@hypVideo]

nobody knows cuz nobody reads old comics she's just "the that died" to most folks

[@markshulusky6680]

Hmm, yeah, but consider this: maybe Gwen Stacy isn't a part of this at all, and Sweeter Gwen was based on Joan Lee!

[@ImmortalHulk447]

A flat uninteresting character.

[@panchosweb1022]

Stan Lee is a liar.

[@KardboardKenny]

the older i get, the more this comment applies to a lot of what SL had a part in.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Jack Kirby also lied a lot. Kirby claimed that Lee wasm't involved in plotting but Romita in an interview made clear that is false: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Kirby also claimed to be the one that came uo with the Idea of the Hulk after he saw a real life case of hysterical strenght, but this is false as the Hulk at first only transformed at night and the first time Bruce Banner became the Hulk out of anger was in a story Written by Stan Lee and Drawn by Dick Ayers. Kirby also claimed he was the one who came up with the idea of the X-men, saying Lee "didn't know what mutations were", but this is a lie, as Lee had already written stories with mutants on it during the Atlas Era of the 1950s and one of those stories was even titled "the mutants and me" and a year before The X-men Lee made a story alongside Ditko for Amazing Adult Fantasy called "The Man in the Sky" which is clearly a protoype of the X-men, as the story portrays a young mutant discovering his powers, being discriminated because of it and being guided to a safe heaven by a telepathic mutant who dreams that one day humans and mutants will live together in peace. Kirby also claimed to have seen Stan Lee crying during the Atlas era and the story is clesrly exaggersted and similar to the lnes Lee would tell about himself: "I came (into the Marvel offices) and they were moving out the furniture, they were taking desks out - and I needed the work! ... Stan Lee is sitting on a chair crying. He didn't know what to do, he's sitting on a chair crying - he was still just out of his adolescence I told him to stop crying. I says: Go in to Martin and tell him to stop moving the furniture out, and I'll see that the books make money". This story has many problems, for starters Kirby says Lee was just out of adolescence at the time, but during that timeframe Lee would have been 36, so he was already a full grown man, not only that but Lee was later asked about this anecdote and he answered with this: "If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home" and later remarking in the same interview "I'm not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him. (laughs)". Both Lee and Kirby should be equally criticized then.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@KardboardKenny by pure logic if you are going to criticize Lee you should also criticize Kirby as both Stan and Jack took to much credit. According to Larry Hama, who was the apprentice of Wallace Wood, "Woody" didn't like neither Stan nor Jack.

[@KardboardKenny]

@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em phuck, you really got you feels hurt on this one, didn't you.

[@resistancepublishing]

Was Joan (Stan Lee’s wife) lying to cover up Stan Lee’s lies? She said Stan drew her numerous times. How did she not know that her husband was a writer? Unless she was following a rehearsed script when in public. The more history people dig up the more I learn how much of a liar Stan Lee was

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

It was common at the time for women to not know a lot about their husband's job. Besides Lee never denied he didn't drew the stories, it was something openly admitted in the credits of every issue. Besides Lee was known to be capable of drawing, he just wasn't good at it. In letters to his friend Writer Stan Sakai, he has drawings of character usagi yojimbo and it has more minimalistic style, so it's completely possible that Joan was mixing up facts due to her lack of knowledge. Insteas of acting in such an irrationally emotional way, you should try to be far more mature and analytical. You should grow as a person.

[@resistancepublishing]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em glad you are capable of judging based on a few lines of words which has nothing to do with my personality. You know me so well. Thank you. Still don’t change the fact that Stan was the biggest con artist in comics

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@resistancepublishing Kirby did take too much credit too, he claimed to have been the one that came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this doesn't make sense as the hulk only transformed at night when he was created and the first time Bruce became Hulk out of anger was in a Story by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. According to Larry Hama, who was an apprentice of Wallace Wood, "Woody" didn't like neither Stan nor Jack, as he thought both of them took too much credit.

[@odnamsrazor2364]

"This may not be the answer you like, but it's the one you have." . not true. it's the answer you provided to us, yes. but it's not the answer wikipedia or others have provided to us. . which, given that you went down this rabbit hole suspecting that you might "need to" pillory Ditko over some perceived violation of Current Year feminist mores, is not really a forgiveable lack of precision.

[@TechnicolorGhosts]

The video literally demonstrates how the answer Wikipedia and other sources gives is based on faulty research and is, at best, a stretch while providing a counter argument with a better sourced conclusion.

[@odnamsrazor2364]

@@TechnicolorGhosts you see, a precise reader would have noted that i DID NOT say that he was wrong in his conclusion. or even that i didn't agree that his conclusion was likely correct. . but you aren't competent enough to notice that. . what i do have a problem with is trying to White Knight over an offense that would have been 60 years old and that all parties are deceased. . and that, crucially, neither of the Lee's has ever mentioned. even though Stan and Steve didn't get along. . the silence on this supposed "offense" is deafening.

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

Your mum.

[@gregorio1580]

Great video.