The Eurasian Cyborgs

  Рет қаралды 10,971

Killpo1

Killpo1

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 92
@AKingInYellow
@AKingInYellow Күн бұрын
Even in the grim, distant future of perpetual warfare we still have to deal with unnecessary advertisements.
@AszkalonOfVerra
@AszkalonOfVerra Сағат бұрын
At least there are no "Pronouns" printed on them instead ... ... x'D
@vezanmatics
@vezanmatics Күн бұрын
The QC Fail label, which only appears on the low-level cyborg units, implies that the mass-production of cyborgs is very sloppy and imperfect - but they still represent a corporate investment that can't be wasted. They're greedy and cut corners wherever they can. So the QC Failures (the majority of them) are simply dumped onto the frontlines as rushdown beasts. Only the cyborgs which pass Quality Control are given weapons and fielded as infantry.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
That's certainly a good thought too, would also imply that with the massive number of defects these factories have been running a long time (an AI told to produce but not able to repair itself).
@vezanmatics
@vezanmatics Күн бұрын
@@killpo_1 From where I am (and this is pure conjecture/HC) it could be that there's a priority system where somewhat wealthier customers can afford cyborgization with a higher chance of Quality Pass. Slaves and refugees get conscripted and shoved through the cheap/old process while volunteers and clients who can pay for the "deluxe upgrade package" will get priority attention and be assured that their cyborgization will go "well" for them. Imagine there being ads to enlist everywhere that give an incomplete story of what cyborgization is like. That feels in-character for the corporate dystopia.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
I definitely think that's the case at the end. There's almost assuredly propaganda going around and citizens aren't aware of what becoming a "soldier" of Eurasia is. The QC Fail / Pass could certainly also have some corporate meddling, with more well off citizens able to pay for better parts to pass QC while the failed ones get thrown into a garbage truck (the flying bombers) and dumped onto the battlefields.
@SirAroace
@SirAroace Күн бұрын
@@vezanmatics good call. My theory was the zombies where rejects both in initial production but also from repeated reuse. It felt off for the zombies to directly crated as such as there is no point in making a zombie with fully conscious, but there is plenty in making solider that way, so it logical that the zombies are byproducts of Solider production and not intentional constructs.
@DUYT09
@DUYT09 23 сағат бұрын
Its like the chip making process your fab is making only the high end product but some of it fails so you sell it at a lower level. Like a 9700x having cores disabled versus a 9900x processor. Just a thought
@noodlebin6355
@noodlebin6355 Күн бұрын
The concept of them still being fully conscious is terrifying
@Grogeous_Maximus
@Grogeous_Maximus Күн бұрын
Yeah. I'm certain they're going to pack as much body horror into the cyborgs as they can. It's gross and glorious.
@jakubkvacala1880
@jakubkvacala1880 Күн бұрын
well in mass produce cybermeat-shield they seemed didnt botherd with lobotomy (Servitors in 40k are more lucky, but there the proces isnt 100% efective), so there wont be combat decision making decrase
@jakubkvacala1880
@jakubkvacala1880 Күн бұрын
@@Grogeous_Maximus nah, what body horory, where are inbuild weapons etc?
@mcflurrybutts4927
@mcflurrybutts4927 18 сағат бұрын
They actually removed a lot of stuff that went too far
@Grogeous_Maximus
@Grogeous_Maximus Күн бұрын
"We dance under phosphor skies" could also mean that the skies rained white phosphorous, which is a chemical weapon, similar to napalm. If so, the 'dancing' that's referred to, takes on a much more sinister meaning.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
Yeah, I did think of white phosphorous but leaned away from it. Perhaps they might be paying homage to Spec Ops The Line in some capacity. My main reservation was that it would scorch the cyborgs under it, but perhaps thats the point "lol we dont care we don't have free will" as they dance and get melted.
@WintersFinalstand
@WintersFinalstand Күн бұрын
Phospor also as a latin root refers to Burning, or that which burns. Also reference to the Burning Skies of the world.
@thegreatazal5021
@thegreatazal5021 2 сағат бұрын
@@killpo_1actually white phosphorus when used as an incendiary weapon leaves high temperature synthetics like vehicles (and cyborgs) unharmed as it burns organic material and produces toxic gasses so if they are actually that augmented they could be deployed under a huge cloud of the stuff to blind and kill organic enemy units.
@XYZ-eo8um
@XYZ-eo8um Күн бұрын
I have some different theory about life cycle of the cyborgs: - Final result of the processing is validated for its function, either becoming a soldier, or thrall (n rare occasions like recruit's high IQ, lower rank officer). That's explains "Failed" label on Runners. Besides, if the final result would always give Runner thrall, which has VERY slim chance of surviving its first battle, then there would be no soldiers altogether, not to mention lack of officers. - Once soldier is killed, but his body is mostly intact, he's brought behind front lines by Mother to receive quick patch up and reactivation to be sent as thrall fodder (the same goes for killed thralls with intact enough bodies) - Another death often results in rupturing body, which results in crawlers being sent once they're reactivated. This is a stage that can be repeated infinitely, until cyborg corpse becomes completely useless And since the war lasts already for several decades, we can assume that this is exact reason why there's more fodder than actual soldiers. Just an infinite cycle of fight-die-repeat.
@RolandTHX
@RolandTHX 22 сағат бұрын
That's my perspective on it too. The minds of the thralls could have been physically damaged as a result of the conversion process or emotionally from the trauma stemming from it, especially if they were made from prisoners or otherwise forced into it and suddenly found themselves in a body that's no longer their own. They're labeled as defective products and just chucked at the enemy Sturm Z style without training or equipment to provide meat shields for the more advanced units and wear down the enemy with sheer attrition. The cyborgs that undergo successful conversion are turned into soldiers or upgraded into specialized types, but being destroyed and revived multiple times could certainly take its toll on them until they're too mentally unstable and get downgraded. I bet that's why some of them are given more realistic facial prosthetics, to help them retain some image of their humanity to keep them emotionally functional for longer. The comment about there being so much more fodder than soldiers is kind of haunting, what's seen in the game could be only the empty shambling husk of what their army started off as. Slowly circling the drain as they scrape and recycle any cyborg that's still of use, grinding them up again and again and again on the battlefield until there's nothing left of their humanity at all.
@XYZ-eo8um
@XYZ-eo8um 10 сағат бұрын
Agreed. They definitely 'wear until it's worn completely' and no longer useful. Besides, large amount of 'Failed' labels could be also the result of recycling components, instead of producing new ones. In this case, cyborgs made mostly of used parts and components are mostly becoming Runners, while those made with brand new ones become soldiers.
@elliottgaal9774
@elliottgaal9774 18 сағат бұрын
This a good video with some interesting theories. It does raise further questions as to the nature of Eurasia. It also makes it more impressive Europa has been able to withstand this long.
@Shabongobng
@Shabongobng Күн бұрын
The only disagreement I have is that it makes more sense that we see more traditional soldiers who get demoted to thralls as they fall in combat as opposed to being promoted from a thrall. I can see it more likely people who fail the transition are converted to thralls and they sort of stay that way, while taking whatever more capable soldiers they can from a pool of converts to instantly promote to armed soldiers. Hell, Officers might even be promoted from skilled volunteers who are groomed for the roll from birth.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
That's a fair approach too. My only hesitation is the number of thralls we see over soldiers. Though, if thralls can be recycled multiple times via spare parts it could explain that after a demotion from soldier to thrall they have multiple "lives" from being recycled before eventually being beyond repair.
@Shabongobng
@Shabongobng Күн бұрын
@ that was my line of logic. You get one shot as a foot soldier, then you become reusable canon fodder until you’re just spare parts for the less damaged thralls.
@saooran7364
@saooran7364 Күн бұрын
They bring so much needed booze to the battlefield. Valuable allies indeed.
@hazardpay514
@hazardpay514 22 сағат бұрын
Apparently Mother Courage also has a Zaikatsu Biomedical brand too on her, alongside a 'Made in NEO S.E.A. low orbit' which is also seen on the 9mm ammo item. With how the cyborg armor is also made in micro gravity, we can somewhat conclude that Eurasia has significant industry up in orbit (despite the setting's kessler syndrome?) Oh, and we do know Eurasian troops still have a morale to maintain, with there being a regional media department producing distributing propaganda around in Lost Angels
@samuelkral414
@samuelkral414 13 сағат бұрын
It's possible they have massive reserves of items from orbital manufacturing like Europa and their tanks, as I don't see why orbital sites wouldn't be hit during the nuclear war.
@samuelkral414
@samuelkral414 13 сағат бұрын
The cyborg on the right in the thumbnail is looking at the one on the left like:„YOU GOT SOFT HANDS BOY! YOU AIN'T WORKED A DAY IN YOUR LIFE!“
@jakubkvacala1880
@jakubkvacala1880 Күн бұрын
We need more Eurasia units (commandos, scouts, snipers, AT units....), and more lore videos, bdw brawlers armor definitivly isnt IIIA, these abomination can withstand antimaterial rifles, and explosives; I can imagine recruitment poster for joining
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
Yeah, the IIIA labeling on Brawlers does not seem appropriate but it could just be the soft armor over perhaps ceramic or steel armor plates. Though, just thinking of it now it could be covering massive amounts of synthetic muscle which could absorb bullet impacts while retaining some functionality (something to explain their massive strength).
@jakubkvacala1880
@jakubkvacala1880 Күн бұрын
@@killpo_1 ​in this time line i wont be suprised if insted of steel, they are using nanolaminates or something like that, that muscle part is likely true, it would explain their increse in size (bdw in those muscles must be stored lot of potencial energy, i wonder what could happen if some of them snaped), pls do lore about Orgamech, plp asap
@jakubkvacala1880
@jakubkvacala1880 Күн бұрын
@@killpo_1 Join army, become superman, fight well and honor will be yours recruitment plagat, imagine rows of saluting officers and brawlers
@antcow1239
@antcow1239 22 сағат бұрын
I kinda want to see a RTS style version of this game
@Koronia047
@Koronia047 Күн бұрын
I feel like turning recruits directly into pure melee first then hoping they live long enough be given a gun seems horribly inefficient for an A.I and even less so in the combat effectiveness department. Im pretty certain Rasia doesnt make thralls directly and is rather a cause of something. My headcanon is they all start out as regular infantry with P90s then, some flaw with cyberware or lack of adaptability meds in the field likely caused them to develop a form of "cyberpsychosis". Seeing them as damaged goods, they just drop'em as cannon fodder.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
It kind of depends on how much Eurasia's factories / corporate factories able to produce imo. Considering the coprorate landscape their could be artifical scarcity to inflate profits or increase influence or power. The armor being labeled as essentially made in Space (Nano-Fabricated in a Micro G enviroment) personally gives me the thought of there being a lot more cyborgs than armor, meaning that these thralls have to "earn" their spot as a soldier. Sort of like Enemy at the Gates vibes (one soldier gets the weapon, one the ammo, pickup the weapon when that soldier dies). When they get to this state they get a great deal of investment into them, with armor, weapons, a Cybrain and likely pick of the litter of parts for repairs. The worn red-eyed variants seem to also suggest that these soldiers are invested in so heavily that they're essentially "zombified" after brain death. I do like the cyberpsychosis idea though, mental instability I think does play a clear factor in some capacity.
@lonewolf2072
@lonewolf2072 20 сағат бұрын
6:00 ◥◣X/\V/\X◢◤ nice logo
@gornintheusa
@gornintheusa Күн бұрын
They Almost look like the T600s to T800s from Terminator
@kasrkindeltaspetsnazcompan364
@kasrkindeltaspetsnazcompan364 22 сағат бұрын
indeed. But also they mix with that and any anime.
@dryblanket284
@dryblanket284 19 сағат бұрын
With all this control over their soldiers, it makes you wonder what would happen if even one cyborg somehow managed to gain free will again. How would the person under all that tech react to their disfiguration?
@hanztheenlightened4529
@hanztheenlightened4529 23 сағат бұрын
Please keep making these videos. They really are great.
@leeworthington5015
@leeworthington5015 21 сағат бұрын
Cant miss a Killpo1 vid!! your voice overs are amazing.
@charlesballiet7074
@charlesballiet7074 21 сағат бұрын
3:12 hmm interesting that it says "quality control fail" on the arm of the cyborg
@clarencezer
@clarencezer 23 сағат бұрын
Oh man thanks for this, what a well done video too!
@D.Padonikus
@D.Padonikus Күн бұрын
At last a video from you! Was curious who will go next and here is my answer. P.S. after watching I wonder what devs will say if they watch this video. Looks like a detailed backstory. As always grim with your fantastic voice and story telling!
@gasmaskcollectorreview1537
@gasmaskcollectorreview1537 Күн бұрын
Social credit zombies
@feb1839
@feb1839 35 минут бұрын
i think looking at the quest dialogue could be another avenue for research. for example; kane states "Although you are of a lower form of life, you are among the best that we have encountered. *Bows*" upon completing the quest "Hostile Expungement". this implies that likely in eurasian society as a whole, people with cybernetic augments are not only looked up to, but considered to be on a completely different level to regular full flesh humans. potentially being thought of as higher beings in some fundamental way
@akakaea4242
@akakaea4242 Сағат бұрын
I have a theory that this is Eurasias method of solving their overpopulation problem. They focus heavily on recruitment so that the more zombified Eurasians die on the battlefield, the less they would have to deal with at home. It also coincides with how they deploy their troops by quite literally dropping bodies to die on the frontlines.
@CryptidBuddy
@CryptidBuddy Күн бұрын
2:04 it’s common for religion to be subsumed & stripped of meaning in jingoism & politics to be a justification for whatever the hell they want, prayer becomes a tv show where the profiteers tell serfs to pray for idols & eventually the idols become the object of worship themselves. Mass manufactured prayer books with no sincerity. “Dancing under phosphorus skies” could be them trying to obliterate all life with white phosphorus and dancing at their destructive victory, it is suited by the very utilitarian & menacing designs of their army not much above Euruska, but the officer is a puzzle. It is the only one basically in the entire game who’s visual presence is one of respect & beauty, with how they’re lit up. Not even the brawler has any grace in it’s design despite being more powerful. Who are they trying to impress? Is the upper class taking part in the fight themselves for some reason? Aliens ruling over puny humans to destroy from within? Would fit the uncanny masks trying to imitate people.
@guedesri281
@guedesri281 22 сағат бұрын
Eurasia over population , Corporate influenced society with a goverment that promotes a mix of oriental ideals of honor, duty and sacrifice. May have created a a culture of indiference in its high society and leadership, cyborgs are dispensable and a product, the only value they bring is in their results in battle , if a cyborg fails he failed its liders and nation. The same idea may be applied to its population . Those who meet expectations are rewarded , those who do not meet them are punished . That's how i see Cyborgs in Eurasia eyed , they are just products with a goal that is to kill their enemies , they are just a number in some excel sheet . A cyborg only gos up in hierchy if it delivers results , that's why oficers look so good , they consistently delivered or over delivered results and got rewarded for it .
@Blackgriffonphoenixg
@Blackgriffonphoenixg 16 сағат бұрын
The whole cyborg lifecycle could be summarized as a "what if Samsara but evil"
@rageysantics1792
@rageysantics1792 Күн бұрын
KILLPO IT'S HAPPENING, ON THE 19TH, THE UPDATE!
@talib3n467
@talib3n467 Күн бұрын
Fuck that i want ps5 release this game is fuckin awesome.e!!!!!!!!!
@corvaxblackfeather6529
@corvaxblackfeather6529 22 сағат бұрын
For me the Life-Cycle of the Cyborgs feels like 'climbing out of Tartarus' where the dead try to escape hell. Only a very few manage this feat and those are Heros and Champions.
@albertp3721
@albertp3721 7 сағат бұрын
"Thrall" and scrambler might just be a final phase of recycled cyborg with Soldier being its mainline model. Considering that the war has lasted for decades it might makes sense that they now outnumbered the Soldiers. Alas we haven't seen much of the elites of Eurasian military including its heavy mechs or even unique characters to fully understand their organization
@Dollsofgod
@Dollsofgod 10 сағат бұрын
Id love to see the base cybogs get a buff. Would be awesome to see sparks flying off one in a hail of bullets only to have one connect and take out the skull and head only for the backup AI take over and it contines to slowly walk towards you until you grind it down to blood and metal.
@JRCOBRA
@JRCOBRA Күн бұрын
When lore and lore speculation is actually better than the game. I un-installed it but still watch these vids.
@GideonRavenor712
@GideonRavenor712 12 сағат бұрын
Mothers being the most durable unit yet seen in the Eurasian arsenal (along with the fact that they are so despite being deployed to ideally avoid Europan engagement) implies to me that the entire Eurasian theory of warfare relies upon recycling their army. Extremely standardized weaponry for their mainline soldiers, very standardized assembly on their cyborg parts, combined with a total disregard for most of their troopers who don't prove skilled or able to mentally withstand the transition into mostly machine. No nation could withstand such a massive attrition rate unless they were built to be reused, which everything else implies. I think unless a Cyborg gets mostly obliterated or disassembled, they can be reactivated and repaired to functionality. Kinda like the Terminators they're inspired off of. Worst case scenario they might retake the useable parts, but I think the priority for Mothers' scavenging runs is always "salvageable soldiers" over parts, given how mass-produced the parts are implied to be. In so doing, the Cyborgs would keep getting "revived", again and again so long as the Mothers can keep finding them, and so long as they're not completely wrecked. Now, their mental states following such a process would likely see further and further degradation over time, since most people wouldn't be able to cope with constantly dying over and over again, but as we see even such cases can still be made use of by Eurasia. As one way or another until they prove themselves worthy, they're the 'fodder' of the Eurasia-Euruskan military partnership. The amount of paranoia and control over their creations also reminds me of Skynet's own paranoia in the Terminator series. Skynet gained sentience, but simultaneously feared it's own creations, the Terminators, gaining free thought. Hence why the T-800s' microprocessors despite being capable of free-thinking were set by default to not enable this feature without post-modification, or why the T-1000 never left the prototype phase despite being a more ideal Terminator model in most respects. In that case particularly Skynet feared it had created a model that was too dangerous for its own safety to mass-produce (Though it was fine sending the prototype it had into the past to kill John as a final desperate move).
@headhunter1541
@headhunter1541 13 сағат бұрын
13:46 Oh shit Eurasia has muscle mommies too, they couldn't stop at the goth ones
@zombie_ghandi215
@zombie_ghandi215 Күн бұрын
the IIIA marking could reference also one of the inspiration they got for forever winter, the 3A toy, just look at 3A toy N.O.M and you'll see some cool figures with gasmask also gg, best deep dive so far, gives a lot of lore for many unit and eurasia in general
@k9vendettathewolfofmordor529
@k9vendettathewolfofmordor529 18 сағат бұрын
So eurasia might be the only faction with reasonable space travel yea? Im just asking cuz I thought there was some lore stating we werent able to access space anymore due to what caused the forever winter
@AnonEMus-cp2mn
@AnonEMus-cp2mn 4 сағат бұрын
My impression of the military hierarchy is opposite. Instead of ascension through service, it is far more likely that cyborg manufacturing is limited in quality due to its advanced features. Like the ratings on CPU chips being determined by their subsystem’s defect rating, perhaps lower tier cyborgs are the horrific result of lower quality standards where the mental damage of conversion is permanent, yet still utilized like spare parts. It is very likely that Eurasia advertises service in the form of Cyborg commanders and handcrafted brawlers, rather than the reality of most cyborgs being mindless thralls.
@imperialistbrit128
@imperialistbrit128 20 сағат бұрын
Ha feels like I’m having one of those zombie media naming conventions, zombies, Zeds, walker, me and my mates call the basic cyborgs ghouls because of their behaviour, but thralls fits really well too
@Wiwer230
@Wiwer230 5 сағат бұрын
Rat king next please
@Raingothic
@Raingothic Күн бұрын
what about the alchohol all cyborgs have on them?
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
I mention it fairly briefly during the Eurasia section (just that they have enough grain for significant Liquor production). I believe it's been cannonized that the cyborgs use it to cope (numbing the minds that are hijacked to murder and witness the horrors of war).
@vihanuyyuru6
@vihanuyyuru6 Күн бұрын
Nice
@ripgeneral
@ripgeneral Күн бұрын
looks like they dump their elderly into cyborg soldiers
@apjapki
@apjapki Күн бұрын
It makes no sense thst zombified thralls ascend to greater function. It's the opposite. Eurasia deployed fully functional SMG armed soldiers but the benefit of thekr cyborg state is that they can be reassembled and returned to the battlefield over and over with increasingly broken and degraded parts....now not able to operate a firearm or even to walk upright. The Eurasians stop deploying these broken toys normally and just drop them from gliders. Thrall and crawler are the last stage of degredation.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
That's a fair theory. Personally, I dont think the Thralls are zombified at the start, they're just mentally supressed. Their minds hijacked to provide cheaper and more mass produced functionality than a complex component like a "Cybrain", reserved only for those who prove their worth. The red-eyed soldiers (and no red-eyed thralls or scramblers) give the impression that there's additional investment placed into Soldiers, able to utilize the backup Cybrain to operate weaponry while in this zombified state. Though it could easily go the opposite way like you're suggesting, where the Soldier is the default state of Cyborgs, and they are degraded over time (to red-eyed variant) until they get a retrofit into a thrall, crawler and then scrap.
@ChaoBei
@ChaoBei 20 сағат бұрын
This would explain the Europans counter measures to deploy much more lighter, and more robust, purely mechanized units to the battlefield, especially to clear out the smaller enclosed area's where they may be infested with these Cyborgs, they outnumber the Europan troop forces by tenfold in the battles and are easily replaceable and repairable when they are harvested and re-initiated into combat, where-as europans do not have any disposable forces or replacements for Hybrid cybernetics due to the lack and demand of Technology, I believe that Europan stance and views on this also restricts and hinders the progression of using similar forces against the Eurasian forces not only due to internal uproar and debate but also a lack of tech and manufacturing resources. Eurasia seems to Embrace the idea of merging Man and Machine into one and making such soldier re-useable for any means necessary because they have the numbers whereas Europa still holds on to a somewhat human dependance for combat and leans more on strategizing engagements, which is why Europan forces are always selectively different on the battlefield.
@k9vendettathewolfofmordor529
@k9vendettathewolfofmordor529 18 сағат бұрын
Also aren't there npc cyborgs aswell? Do you think those ones became sentient enough to break free from their programming?
@albertp3721
@albertp3721 7 сағат бұрын
You mean Kane?
@4T3hM4kr0n
@4T3hM4kr0n 14 сағат бұрын
Anyone else think the cyborg skeleton face looks a lot like Abaddon from UT2004?
@vlad260
@vlad260 18 сағат бұрын
What game is this. And what studio.
@robertzmuda898
@robertzmuda898 9 сағат бұрын
Forever Winter
@vlad260
@vlad260 8 сағат бұрын
@robertzmuda898 thank you
@emperor002002
@emperor002002 23 сағат бұрын
The hell video game is this from?
@LazyY91
@LazyY91 23 сағат бұрын
The Forever Winter
@silvercat18
@silvercat18 9 сағат бұрын
I imagine that there is no shortage of debtors, criminals, agitators and the like who can be pressed into unwilling cyborg service. Economically it would be a great idea, as there would be no need for prisons and it would be a great tool for encouraging social conformity and economic productivity. The QC fail may not be a mechanical failure, but a social one - humans judged to have failed to live a productive life, by their AI overlords.
@charlesballiet7074
@charlesballiet7074 21 сағат бұрын
seems like europa is both under teched and outnumbered not an enviable place to be in a war
@vcqrsfdwc1987
@vcqrsfdwc1987 9 сағат бұрын
I'd say this whole game is something somewut bulit upon the ColdWar propaganda yeah it's a game yeah it's gotta some pretty gud art design but still it's propaganda
@axtmann
@axtmann Күн бұрын
Thumbs-down for the usage of ai slop images. Good luck out there.
@killpo_1
@killpo_1 Күн бұрын
None of the images were actually AI. If they were they were not advertised as such. (All images are either in game, concept art for other games or obtained through license websites such as ShutterStock or Adobe Stock without the AI tag).
@B4llsD33p69_OwO
@B4llsD33p69_OwO Күн бұрын
Hate it or embrace it, the conflict is already lost, and internet will only get more artificial. Move on, touch grass, get a better hobby.
@saooran7364
@saooran7364 Күн бұрын
Thumbs down for assuming before asking, you can always spare yourself from embarrassment.
@lawrence4301
@lawrence4301 19 сағат бұрын
thumbsing this up out of spite
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