The Evil of Altruism by Onkar Ghate

Everyone knows that altruism - selfless sacrifice for the sake of others - is the essence of virtue, right? But what if our understanding of the true meaning of “altruism” and “sacrifice” is completely mistaken? What if these ideas are actually destructive and harmful? From Ayn Rand’s perspective, our whole way of thinking about morality needs to be radically rethought.
Recorded live at Ayn Rand Con Europe 2023
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[@Xavyer13]

Like it or not, this person is spitting straight up facts

[@ethiocinemas]

Some body should write a book for children with the concept of objectivism. It's a great presentation

[@andualemyaregal9155]

Interesting to see fellow Ethiopian objectivist.

[@ethiocinemas]

@@andualemyaregal9155 We are rare but we exist.

[@BalugaWhale37]

I recommend giving "Effective Egoism" by Don Watkins to teenagers. They have enough life experience to begin to understand the ideas he presents. I really like how he quotes well known, contemporary thinkers on the ideas of determinism, duty, or sacrifice and shows how they fail and what powerful answers Rand has discovered.

[@jhlasound]

All the Ayn Rand people are great thinkers. Never a dissapointment

[@robabiera733]

Excellent presentation! Great job summing up the issue in terms of essentials, tying them to concretes and putting it in context - both past and present! All in under 30 minutes!

[@Reidsmith1000]

Excellent presentation. I found it very clarifying for my total understanding of the subject.

[@kathryndawson3500]

That was the best clarifying presentation I've listened to. Btavo!

[@coldflu]

Great points. Those that request others to act unselfishly are selfish themselves.

[@shekfu]

This is my favorite topic

[@lebendigesdeutsch5123]

Onkar gives great talks

[@kitchencarvings4621]

Given that I rejected the moral teachings of my family and everyone around me in the bible belt at a young age, I'd like to think that if I were born in the 18th century, I'd have rejected slavery.

[@SlamminGraham]

Good job!

[@shantanujoschi]

Amazing stuff. full of truth bombs from start to end. kudos Onkar

[@BalugaWhale37]

Effective egoism is earlier than we think to paraphrase Rand. When Onkar speaks of the trouble abolitionists endured from the culture who thought there was no way to run a society without human subjugation, I find our current culture more understandable. In Star Trek, The Wrath of Khan, Spock dies while he repairs the failing warp engine. He says, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" echoing Mills. Later, Kirk eulogies Spock, a Vulcan, as the most human he has ever met. What is shown, but not identified conceptually, was the value that Spock held for his friends and the other crew members who would surely die. He knew he was the only one who could live long enough to get the job done. This is not a sacrifice in the Christian sense. It's an action taken from love of life. When Star Trek can make money delivering speeches from the pages of Atlas Shrugged, then altruism will be in full retreat. Now and in the 1980s, they must smuggle it in or modernize Stoicism in a Vulcan veneer.

[@Jonathan-pp5zc]

I think the problem with altruism today is that most people don't need to sacrifice and require rich people to sacrifice for everyone else.

[@science212]

Altruism, the most ilogical word.

[@Design_no]

Taking the knee is the most absurd concept of modern altruism.

[@dysprosium162]

End of the day we live in a society. 100% of all we produce does not go just to ourself and our enjoyment. In the capitalist model the work I do supports the work and income earnings of other people, to taxes to support infrastructure like roads, schools etc.... Basically following this philosophy, once you can no longer produce (eg you get old, injured) you have no right to the necessities of life. I agree that conventional morals should be challenged and examined but the alternative doesn't sound very moral either.

[@ingevankeirsbilck9601]

You are right, although in practice I believe the vast majority of us would take care of our elderly parents, handicapped relatives etc... Today this is largely "taken care of" by "the State", who taxes us insane amounts of money, spends a lot of money on things that are not in our interest, and provides poor service. If we lived in smaller communities and were more self-reliant we would be able to take care of those who need help.

[@francescaerreia8859]

No, that isn’t what this philosophy says. Not at all. It isn’t about not working together in a society, not for a second. It’s about living your best life, which you can hardly do without other people surrounding you. This isn’t atomism. Try to take the time to understand this before you knock it. Ask yourself what living the best possible life means for you. Just as you point out, you’re going to want to live in a society right? Be taken care of when you’re old and incapable of taking care of yourself right? You want to have friends and lovers right? So you’ll need to do the things to ensure you can achieve those ends. The point here isn’t that you can’t help other people in the pursuit of living the best life you can selfishly, the point is that you should ONLY help other people when it can serve that end, and that you have no obligation to help other people who would not do that and who instead will harm you by helping them. That’s all. This isn’t anti society, it isn’t anti helping others, not at all. On the contrary, it’s only with a rationally self interested ethic that any of these can actually work effectively and to the benefit of all who are worthy of it. Anything else means there are people being sacrificed and other people taking those sacrifices. But a society based on this ethic of selfishness instead means no one gets sacrificed, people make intelligent tradeoffs and investments and work together toward mutual benefit. That’s the way forward for society and it’s good because it’s what is best for each person.

[@shanemoore9231]

Provoking talk. I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water denouncing sacrifice, surrendering, and fundamentals to attaining one's vision and the betterment of those around you, but certainly Altruism do-gooders does have this lack of sense giving more than you should in the name of excess materialism or moralistic hierarchy.

[@paulrichardson8989]

Your baby is a killer.

[@thomaszeun5551]

Albert Ellis' book Is Objectivism a Religion? Is the true genius.

[@rasavastakaite4752]

This is very dual point of view. Dramatically making his own point of view by expanding and emphasizing the dark side so his point looks more bright. This is not insightful at all.

[@LilithAvner]

This person does not have not even a fundamental understanding of God/ the God revealed in the bible. The trial of Abraham was about faith, God invites this man to participate in a great plan of rescue and redemption so God test his metal his loyalty. Mainly for the man to be convinced and be all in. So it's not that the Christian God needs people but that He invites us. Christianity is not Islam, it's not submission in that way. What is correct about what Mr. Ghate is saying is that secularism is operating as a religion and the Abrahamic faiths would identify it as idolitry. Conventional morality is idolitrous.

[@donomar4815]

Whether you acknowledge it or not, self sacrifice is a deep human archetype. And your blind spot is that your renunciation, your sacrifice and your surrender, if they are no made for G., or conventional morality, they will ipso facto be made for your ego, your instinct, and your basic selfishness. The question is, who or what we need to sacrifice to? It will remain an arbitrary choice. But I like your perspective anyways, i find it very insightful

[@MaxIzrin]

This was really good, but the last part was a bit off. Firstly, talking about Putin right after Hitler is a form of propaganda, cut that out. The Ukraine conflict has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with pragmatism, and NATO's continued march to the east. Second, Hitler was Christian, and the Nazis were very religious, so it's not the best example of conventional morality. You could a argue that Hitler used religion for his own ends, adding the whole "chosen people" aspect to it, but you can say the same of the average Rabbi, and really many religions that place their own people at the center of the universe. There's unfortunately no lack of examples to pick from, so going for shock value with Nazis and current events, weakens the presentation in my opinion.

[@emilyusifov7149]

Rather than trying to persuade you or argue, I will only say: “Act and see the consequences of your own words and actions”. Remember, evil is impotent.

[@MaxIzrin]

@@emilyusifov7149 That doesn't make any sense, but OK.

[@emilyusifov7149]

@@MaxIzrin Russia will face the consequences of what it has been doing in Ukraine and of what it has done throughout its history. And since evil is impotent, these results will be detrimental.

[@SpacePatrollerLaser]

@@emilyusifov7149 And who will administer those consequences: God? The Force? Donald Trump? All that is needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. Now that you try to separate Putin form Hitler let me remind you Putin is a theocrat lining up with the Russian Orthodox Churhc, which makes him an overt Christian. Besides the West agreed to act as guarantors of Ukraine's independence in trade for Ukraine surrnedering their nuclear weapons. If they go down, the West is finished in the minds of anyone with a historical perspective: Not finishing off North Korea, Hungary 1956, Czecho-Slovakia 1968, Vietnam, Afghanistan (and don't forget it was TURMP who arranged that surrender and said he'd have us out be the ane of MAY '22: At least Biden bought us four months)

[@Weirdomanification]

​@@emilyusifov7149 Russia has done evil things including in Ukraine. Also it is not in our interest to be Altruist and flirt with nuclear war over a country we don't even have an alliance with. We also are broke.