The Excommunication of John Dehlin Pt. 1 - Bishop James Stephenson (5/1/2012) | Ep. 1264

February 2020 marks the 5 year anniversary of my excommunication from the Mormon church.
In a desire to protect myself against the possibility of slander or misinformation from the church or its apologists (as was experienced by former church members such as Fawn Brodie, Simon Southerton, and Kate Kelly during their disciplinary councils), I recorded all of the interviews I had with my bishops (James Stephenson and Brian Hunt) and stake presidents (Mark Jensen and Bryan King) leading up to my disciplinary council/excommunication.
As I have been opposed to Mormon Disciplinary Councils from my childhood on, it was always my intention to publish these interviews as a matter of public record - but I decided to hold off on publishing them for several years.
In light of the recent changes made to the Mormon church's disciplinary council process, and on the 5th anniversary of my excommunication, I am publishing them now.

[@marthashepherd341]

John's honesty in this convo is heartfelt. For another believer - the Bishop - to ask the questions as he is, made me feel anxious listening to this... No one should be alloted this "power" over another in judgement.

[@rebeccazeman9309]

I realize this video is old but sir, you have such integrity to be honest in this meeting. Idk the whole back story here bc I'm a newer watcher but i genuinely can see you're a man of integrity which is rather rare these days.

[@jeff1083]

In the first interview the Bishop was so worried about John not being at Church. It is not the Bishops business. Going to Church is a personal decision that I make weekly. I am held accountable to Jesus Christ for my actions and decisions. One day Christ will see my heart. I want him to see I went to Church because I wanted to. Not oh, you only went because you were afraid of your family or Bishop. I am so thankful I resigned my membership. Jesus gave us his gospel. I do not need Joseph Smith or the LDS Church to save me. Jesus did it all. Thank you John for the years of videos. Your videos lead to questions and the research I do afterwards is up to me to find the truth. Love other peoples stories on how they ended up leaving. Your so compassionate to your guest and have a great understanding because you went through it yourself. Keep up the great work.

[@personofinterest8731]

You helped me resign in November 2015. Thank you John. Best of everything. 🙏🏾🌹

[@utah133]

I've never seen a normal church who bases "worthiness" on attendance like this. They're just glad to see you when you come.

[@melvindawson4736]

The truth lies in the word of God those who keep the commandments of God all 10 restoration starts with obedience and that's obedience to his law that means keeping the true Sabbath day that Jesus also kept!!! sunday was a man made day it's not holy or sanctified there's no blessing in it there's only sanctification in the original Sabbath day some say Sabbath was done away with at the cross but that's incorrect Mathew 5:17 confirms that ask God to lead you into his true remnant church who keep all 10 commandments I was so close to becoming a Mormon but when they admitted the true Sabbath was Saturday that was enough for me to want to find the church who were obedient to all gods words

[@kingimatthews4481]

its so hard to get ones name taken off the records, they give you the hardest time with excuses, im mindful the the guy who went to HELL AND RETURNED , UTUBE TESTIMONIALS DOCO,................. near death experiances............... there he met a guy , tuned out it was Joe Smith, in torment as a false prophet, PLUS..............PLUS ................All his followers that joined his fold , That guy who presented himself was traumatised for 4 day before speaking...I need to get my name off the records,, whats recorded on earth................................. is recorded in heaven.

[@catht9653]

I'm an ordained minister, and if were to call on someone because they hadn't been to church, it would be purely to make sure that they were OK; that they weren't depressed or struggling. It would never be to make it clear that skipping is not OK -- as though they were being called into the principal's office (even a compassionate one). The bishop kept saying "I haven't seen you, so I was concerned," but it was clear that his concern was only secondarily your well-being, and primarily your orthodoxy. Not cool. I am thankful that so many religious leaders (at least the ones I pal around with) do not subscribe to an orthodoxy model, but a pastoral model. I see my role as being to serve the congregation in the most loving way I can. I do try to call them to their highest selves, and to listen for what God is calling them to do. But that's between them and God. I don't have a congregation at the moment, but that is how I was, or at least strove to be, in my role. It helps that I'm ordained in a congregationalist model (where the congregation has the power, not a bishop or other church authority).

[@elderbroomhead2671]

That's why you're not a *Common Judge In Israel* and you do not hold the *Melchizedek Priesthood* which the Dreamer Of Dreams, Joseph Smith, restored on Earth. It's why we need to keep our eyes on Doc Nelson and listen to whatever he says, because he is Our Prophet on Earth who receives revelation for everyone! (I'm being facetious here)

[@marthashepherd341]

John is a true voice of God/Spirituality.... please keep Mormon Stories going... As a Catholic, I can relate so well. All "religions" sadly share the same elements of control as they are created by Humans. The Creator is not controlling, and is merely LOVE 🙏❤🙏

[@exmodeadpool]

Recording conversations with leaders is fun! When they say that they never said some things during the interview, you can play them their own words and enjoy the most futile gaslighting attempts in human history.

[@christinewatkins4484]

Thank you john

[@lindamartinez7006]

Nothing wrong was said in that interview . Very respectful .

[@ArghMatey]

Just like dealing with a narcissist in a relationship/marriage where you end up having to record conversations just to have proof youre getting gaslit, lied to, twisted facts & half-truths, blame-shifting/victim-blaming, false accusations, they get angry when you bring up something they did or you want clarity on, then move it on you like youre the problem! Then the silent treatment/shunning/stonewalling/slander stage ...its all the same in extreme religious groups/cults (I just checked out the OSHO documentary...and its mindboggling how its all textbook)...and ruins good people and potentially great relationships if not for the dogmatic, high control tactics that are taught to the people as "normal"

[@robertleftwich1122]

@@exmodeadpool-~~……What .

[@robertleftwich1122]

Didn’t hear anything wrong with what the Bishop said , or John as far as he went .

[@jasonanderson02]

IMHO, most interactions with leaders, local or otherwise, ought to be recorded.

[@ryanbennett1396]

There really isn't any good reason not too. I can see that the church might want to do it to protect from liability but maybe it's never been an issue until lately.

[@othersheep5491]

@@ryanbennett1396 if the church is worried about liability, perhaps they should discontinue the shameful behaviors they are liable for😆😆😆

[@SugarAddictComesClean]

They're recorded in heaven😉😁

[@CCM426]

John, this was really difficult to listen to. Brought back memories, for sure. My heart truly ached for you during the interview. Your Bishop was pleasant enough but how he couldn’t hear your love for the church in your voice was incredible to me. I had a Bishop interview me, and basically he wanted to know why we weren’t coming to church. I asked him “why would we come to a church where no one talks to us”. I think he was shocked and we started getting home teachers after that.

[@gardengirl5330]

Just heartbreaking the way you were treated, John & Margie; I was outraged on your behalf. I imagine many others have been treated this way but didn’t have the ability to shed light on the interactions. Thank you for sharing!

[@Karenanneseven]

I love that I’ve found your channel as I love listening to smart, kind, thoughtful & humble humans. Tks John for sharing your story. From Perth West Australia 🇦🇺 🇺🇸 ❤🙏

[@Dink1963]

I admire you even more now. You are a courageous, respectful honest snd humble hero

[@SnuggleBunnyBaby]

Wow it's been 5 years. I've been a silent listener/observer for about as long John. I've never been LDS, but i was briefly married to a member and I actually had a testimony (after praying if the church was true!). I've truly truly enjoyed your podcast. Thank you for the love, support and KINDNESS you and your crew given the interviewees!! I can't imagine how painful the excommunication process is.

[@HollySikora]

As a nevermo, I’ve been fascinated by your podcasts. I’m especially interested in this one because it’s dated right before the pandemic.

[@hattswank5313]

Blows my mind how "being in the building every week" = faithfulness. You have all kinds of people there every week who appear to be righteous merely by being there.

[@paulamerrill7108]

Love your courage to disclose this John, even though the thought of such a process makes my skin crawl off my body. I so appreciate all you continue to do!

[@CuriousCat8010]

Thank you for telling your story and choosing to make the interviews public. Thank you for standing up for minority’s like the LGBTQ population that I am a part of. Thank you for all you do. I’m not Mormon and came across your channel due to some KZbin algorithm popping it up as a suggestion and I’ve been watching it ever since. Fascinating, amazing, sometimes sad, yet such strong people overcoming incredible hardships. What you’re doing is powerful and making a positive impact for so many, including myself. You have my utmost respect and I see and appreciate you very much.

[@kateray]

Never - Mormon here. Been deep down different LDS research rabbit holes for a while now. Last night I watched You and Margie's interview by Marriage on a Tightrope, then cleansingly cried my eyes out watching Margie's Thrive episode. I never would have known this existed if you hadn't talked about it with Marriage on a Tightrope. Very intrigued and fascinated to hear! ♡♡♡

[@gfullmer]

Thanks for recording them. I appreciate that. It will be interesting.

[@BlessYourHeart254]

Thanks for your courage in bringing these secrets to light. High-control religions need secrecy to keep their hold on people. If they’re so wonderful and hold the answers to life and whatever else they think they do, then they shouldn’t have any to hide.

[@ljackson8634]

I am so interested in this. I walked out of church 5 years ago Easter Sunday and haven’t been back. The process of getting a temple sealing cancelled was enough to start me questioning EVERYTHING! They didn’t want to grant me one due to my church attendance from a cheating ex spouse.. and that’s not even the half of it. Love the punch card comment . I needed one too 🤣

[@exmodeadpool]

@D B is that what Greek Christianity teaches?

[@sedonarose7563]

They wouldn’t let you get a “Mormon divorce” because you weren’t attending church enough?

[@southernbawselady7092]

Thanks John for recording this! You are doing so much good for humanity! @38:40..."There's some history about the church that isn't pretty" So why question a man about his life when the church history is NOT pretty?!?....Just FIX THE CHURCH!! There is a BIG difference between "religion" and "spirituality"....spirituality has to do with the inside of a person. It has nothing to do with being inside a church, mosque, Temple or Kingdom Hall (JW) When this fact is realized then maybe, just maybe we can move on and fulfill the purpose of our lives! Thanks for your courage and boldness John! 💪 Moving on to part#2 😄

[@ShinkeiDEI]

5 years! Time flies by. Thank you for putting this in John. Much love and respect.

[@Surefoundation504]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Svi2esjMh6e7c

[@christopher6082]

So the fact that the bishop just learned (or pretends to have just learned) about the plural marriage aspect and is so ready to dismiss speaks volumes

[@dorelkynaston1468]

At the end of my excommunication, the stake president stated, "Dorel, you will be buried in black." That phrase has really negatively affected the rest of my life. This was 25 years ago. What a tough suicidal thrust against my life this whole thing became,

[@sharithompson1672]

There’s something just wrong about a church, any church, that demands you appear before church officials and explain to them (defend) your attendance on Sundays, your “testimony” (which is a very personal thing unless one chooses to share it), the very fact that you dare to have ethical questions on certain church edicts, and how much money you give to the church coffers. These are things a member should be able to go to church officials to help them if they choose, and ONLY if they choose. This is a supposed to be a church for God’s sake (literally), not an HOA. Ps John WAS “in trouble”, that interview was not just “checking in”.

[@Whatever-fe7xn]

This seems to be a problem in just Utah. I don't think any other place really cares if you attend or not.

[@sharithompson1672]

@@Whatever-fe7xn I know it’s really bad in Utah but I guess it’s really who your bishop is and how far they’re willing to take it. I guess that’s my main issue. The church shouldn’t promote these actions, but discourage them. I grew up in the church in California and had a horrible experience with this when I was a teen. So bad, in fact, that I left the church and have never been back.

[@mindeloman]

The issue i always had with EQ was: even though it was billed as an open forum for men to talk about their life issues - which, faith being one of those - it really wasn't. You couldn't go off script. And that unspoken script is: "if it's not faith promoting, don't bring it up." If someone were to dare say in the middle of quorum hour, "you know.....i'm having problems with Joseph Smith right now," you'd be hushed with a nice little, 'we can talk about this later.' On and on - the church advertises one thing but the reality is different. It's not welcoming for doubters or even the poor in spirit. What always annoyed me for years before my shelf-break was on-display programing and conditioning of children. The annual primary program was hard to sit through and all these little sunbeams saying, "I know Joseph Smith was a prophet." How controversial would it be for a 5 year old to say, "i'm learning and hoping to gain a testimony and when i do know it to be true, i'll pray carefully on the choice of baptism." Simply put: everything these children say are platitudes and it extends into adulthood. It's so weird to see an adult bear a testimony about a random topic (family history) and then do the closing checklist. "I know this church is true, i know that JS was a prophet, i know the BoM is true, i know that President x is a true prophet today, and i know that families can be together forever. " Adult primary program checklist complete......platitudes are checked-off and the church remains true to those who heard it.

[@livin4thelionofjudah]

Great points!

[@dirkhoekstra727]

I'm glad you are sharing this. I find it very interesting to listen too. I have never been a Mormon, and have no family or friends in the LDS. I'm a born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled, charismatic Christian who is very interested in studying Christian sects like Mormonism or Jehova's Witnesses. I'm just sad that the Mormons perverted the Biblical Gospel in such a way that no-one wants have anything with it. And it saddens me that Mormonism hurts people so badly, they they ultimately reject God and the gospel complete. That bishop says that the difference between the LDS Church and other Christian groups is that the LDS believe that we can progress and improve ourself, where others just "become saved and go to the Lord" Nonsense, we all can and should strive with our actions to become more Christ-like. But becoming saved by grace through faith and becoming more Christ-like is two different things. This bishop should learn the concepts of justification and sanctification. I believe that once Jesus saves us, our salvation is complete and done and NOTHING we can do can help us becoming saved. But once we are saved, it is our responsibility to "workout" the salvation (works like constantly reading the Word of God, praying, spreading the good news about the Gospel, serving and loving others, be active in church, be accountable to leaders etc..) Those good works / practices are called sanctification, which is ultimately your way of growing more Christ-like in behaviour. A true salvation and true faith should naturally lead to you wanting to be in a process of sanctification. So this accusation that Mormons have against other Christian groups holds no water. The best thing a Mormon can do is to completely re-read the Bible on its own without any LDS scriptures or interpretations as if you are child reading it for the first time. Remember, it was never God or Jesus you hurt you. It was the perverted LDS church system. Jesus' love for you is unchanged. I'm sure you are familiar with Sandra Tanner and her research as well as Lynn Wilder and her family. Lynn's book "Unveiling Grace" is just incredible, because it tells her whole testimony and also show you perfectly the differences between true Christianity and the teachings of the LDS church.

[@pechaa]

Dirk, I wonder whether you yourself have read the whole Bible. There is copious inconsistency within your own literary canon as well. What are your thoughts on that?

[@ryanbennett1396]

The thing that always puzzled me about disciplinary councils is they seem to throw out what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-3 - 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

[@BuckeBoo]

I resigned from LDS. Had not darkened the doors since age 15 and resigned in mid 40s because they found me and kept sending missionaries. My history included being held in the bishops office because he felt I hadn’t paid tithing fully at age 12. $1 a week allowance. Paid 10 cents out of every dollar and told I was a liar. Children should never be allowed to be in a room alone with the bishop. Full stop. This was only a fraction of the reasons why I left. The biggest infraction was the pressure applied to our family for a 18 year old male church member attempting to abduct my sister into a car as she walked home from school, she was 7, and the church wanted charges dropped so he could go on a mission. I do not believe in organized religion and never will. Ultimately I did appreciated the pressure to make my departure official by harassing me in my 40s. 😂

[@martinsmith439]

John I get the impression that you feel lost without the church , because all though you are now convinced that the church is no true you are still a true Mormon I’m sorry and sad because I know you really wanted to stay,god bless you John there are many like you who have been damaged by the church and feel that there’s no hope anymore and many have become Atheist this is so damaging. Where do we go from here.........

[@gfullmer]

5 years! Wow, time goes by so quick when you are having fun! ;-) Thanks. I appreciate all you have done for us non-believers. I guess I need to get a blog to get excommunicated! ;-)

[@dxcomic]

Elaine Beard - He’s showing sincere gratitude to John. Why do you feel the need to snipe? John’s an honest, compassionate person. I’ve known him for almost 40 years. He’s the real deal.

[@elainebeard1320]

I was not sniping.I think John is great,given this is a replay of his recording I was observing what was going on.I have been through a church disciplinary council,frankly I do feel they are really archaic.Rather like the Spanish Inquisition.They should be done away with, Period.Its a male control thing.Definately. Not what Godwould do.Lets face it ,these men have no authority at all.

[@dxcomic]

Elaine Beard - I tried to look back to see how I may have misinterpreted your comment, but it’s gone. I vaguely recall “if you’re not happy, you should leave.”- So sorry for misinterpreting your comment. And sorry for the pain you went through in the church court. Do you have any relative named “Chalice?” - a wonderful person I knew growing up in PA.

[@harrisonlapahie3483]

What I heard is that you still love the LDS Church but don't believe that it is the "true" church. And you spoke the truth. Yet, this Bishop still kept you. I have said things during Sunday School, and I was verbally put down for my thoughts by some LDS members. But after the Sunday School meeting, some came up to me and appreciated my thoughts, actually shaking my hand. And when I spoke up during Elder's Quorum Meeting, I was told by the 1st Counselor "what's wrong with you". He is now the Bishop. Since the COVID-19 pandemic, I have not returned back to this LDS Ward, and have discontinued with the LDS Church. My wife and daughter also have doubts concerning the LDS Church. The LDS Church has good people, but I don't believe in everything coming from past LDS historic hierarchical leaders and the current ones. To me, the LDS Church is not the "true" Church.

[@EleanorMclean-ns1yl]

Thank you for sharing your personal journey with us, this must of been a difficult process for you, not easy at all! Bless you John Dehlin. I appreciate you all.

[@cindyg8638]

Anyone else uncomfortable when he says he hasn't seen him in a while and then tells him he is worried about his commitment to the church because it has been a month? Church is only once a week and it was stated that he had been traveling a lot. Seems really controlling.

[@cindyg8638]

@M. Alexander von Keßler and it's not just like a passing "oh it's been a while" it's a "I called you to a meeting to correct your unacceptable behavior"

[@annimalasenko7326]

I am thankfull for your bravery and the fact that you recorded this. I hope it can help you and others heal since I believe you to be very intelligent+well read in psychology and yet able to be blinded by a high demanding religion, wich you stood up against. The way this bishop treated you in this recording is so unempathatic and condescending while you come across as someone who truely wants to have an honest human conversation. That took a look of courrage! Happy to see older episodes too🎉

[@lynnj9721]

"Utah is a one party consent state.." Me: Oh crippity crap, this gonna be good .

[@lynnj9721]

Aww. I'm sorry John. That was two people trying to find common ground.

[@emilywinkel8669]

Super excited about this! Thank you for sharing ☺️

[@adamgonzalez8668]

I Like you most because , your honest and I can take you at your word that your convictions are your true beliefs, I respect that , I’m 100% active but I know that I can find truth on your channel.

[@andreadiamond7115]

I respect you so much John! Best wishes to you, Margie, guests and team! You all make a difference! - Former Methodist, now agnostic atheist thanks to you and many others.

[@Redbirds1100]

I should tell you my story that happened in 2013, I had to get a lawyer and they had told the Mormon church to quit coming to my house calling me on the phone and following me and contacting me on face book. I am directly related to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. It took many years all the way until 2022 that they finally left me alone.

[@martagivens4820]

Hi John I'm long away from the church and its still not easy after all these years. I wanted you to know that I knew Kirk Farmer from college and yes he is a wonderful human being.

[@debbsc5176]

This is super cringe. Thanks for sharing this. I'm so glad I left the church a long time ago without this kind of grilling. Thanks for all you do, John!

[@sedonarose7563]

The bishop sounds like a kind soul. Like you say in this interview, John, the church has so many good things about it. It taught me the value of family, being kind, generous, hard working, striving for a good career, loving others, being honest. After I left the church I didn’t want to leave the church. I still considered myself a cultural Mormon. It wasn’t until I started learning of the really egregious ways in which the church hurts families and had hurt me that I realized the dark side. I wish the church could remain intact without all the horrible shit. Like why can’t the church accept queer people and queer marriages? Why can’t women hold leadership? Why is sexuality our ultimate goal in life? Idk, just is so confusing.

[@wt460]

The Church is unethical, continuing lies to their members, and authoritarian in their manner. You owe them nor us any apology, or even an explanation to them. I’m so thankful that your are there doing your work, and that is why I contribute to you every month.

[@AllisonJames810]

John… 🙏🏽🙏🏽 thank you! thank you! thank you!! What you’re doing with these podcasts is important work! If there is a god, this IS his work! 💖

[@sarahsherman226]

I'm so happy I found "your story " I love this podcast

[@kylecalderwood6093]

Thanks so much for everything you do John! Can’t wait to listen to this!!

[@cassandrab4080]

This is fascinating stuff. The bishop has certain expectations of how "Good Mormons" behave. John spends the interview defending or excusing his behavior when his actions seem to deviate from the bishop's expectations. The bishop is "Good" and John is "Bad". John needs to "fix" or "redeem" himself. Don't come back until you've purged your rebelliousness. Near the end of the interview the question arises whether the bishop's expectations are valid, consistent, ethical and Christ-like. Filled with kindness and empathy, the bishop is willing to allow members to question, as long as they keep quiet about it. It goes without saying that anyone who questions the bishop's behavioral code must be a spiritual cripple, unworthy of full participation in Zion. Full social acceptance and interaction is an important restriction imposed on those spiritual deplorables, since "Questioning" is a contagious sin. Definitely no teaching or leadership positions in the Ward. Despite a valid priesthood ordination, spiritual cripples can't exercise their priesthood.

[@justinmasterson4611]

I am a pretty active going member of the church I enjoy Mormon stories I found out about the changes of this so-called handbook throughMormon stories how come members have not been notified of any changes of any handbook that's pretty ridiculous that I have to find out changes through Mormon stories no notifications of any changes through sacrament meetings or steak conferences at least so far Mormons are really good at keeping things in the Mormon bubble

[@bobtiger3558]

It's Stake conference, we all wish it was steak conference though

[@carolynaitken7632]

bob tiger lol 😂

[@carolynaitken7632]

Jay Paul lucky you I didn’t maybe I should ask for one after all I suppose don’t ask don’t get.

[@karenvanessan.2000]

@@bobtiger3558 love it 😂

[@sadieesther9721]

“I work really hard at my religion” that’s the rub right there

[@hyrumfarnsworth15]

This is painful to listen to. It reminds me of interviews I’ve had in the church where I felt awful for not doing what my leaders wanted because I disagreed with them. Many of my leaders have been good people, but they’re so caught up in the church that they don’t think for themselves.

[@michellesanchez741]

I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THIS VIDEO!!!! I WATCHED THE EPISODES WITH YOUR BEAUTIFUL WIFE MARGI AND MY HEART WAS BREAKING FOR HER..

[@sedonarose7563]

The church takes advantage of Bishops. It breaks my heart this bishop is here on his own time getting no compensation and has had no proper training.

[@morgainedeeh7921]

I know, this is going to sound unkind an harsh, and it is the first time, I actually see a bishop meeting with a fellow mormon, but - I am actually a bit scared typing this - it makes my tummy feel awkward and to me it is like a police interrogation or worse an FBI interrogation with a man, that is under suspicion of a very very serious crime. I was raised catholic and when I had to meet our priest for childrens confession meetings before our so called first communion. It was exactly the darn same. My heart breaks I come from the biggest sect on christianity and to me the catholic church is the biggest sect, and I just wanna scream out loud, that this is one of the reasons I left and what actually got me leaving was the fact, that we had so many ped. priests and it was covered up. That is not what our Lord wanted and it is something that NEVER ever should be swapped beneath the carpet, what we call it over here in Germany, when a crime is not mentioned to law enforcements. I am so very sorry, that you Dr. Dehlin had to undergo such a weird thing and I am sorry that you´ve got excommunicated - it is like Martin Luther, when he nearly got burned on a pile of wood, which happend very often in the middle ages. And I love your channel, cause it let us non-members take a deep dive into this part of christianity. Thank you for letting us share with you and bless you and your family and to all of you - stay safe and healthy and happy. Warm Greetings.

[@roxierivers3890]

I wish i had recorded all my meetings with my bishop and the state president. John you need to hear my story.

[@anthonydurling4093]

So much pain could have been avoided.

[@kaysharogers32]

I'm a Never-Mo and I find all this fascinating 😮

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

Actual recording starts at 25:00

[@jakobfisher76]

As a previous Bishop who is now on his own faith journey, I really appreciate this perspective. In my opinion, a church leader's only response to someone on their own faith journey is to express love, support, and welcome them no matter what. Come to church, don't come to church, that's your decision, a Bishop's role is to love, support, and welcome everyone no matter where they are. You don't discipline someone based on their testimony. John, your content has been helpful to me on my journey, thank you!

[@sonyalazanya7]

The tithing statement was that interesting because this was even before the ensign peak release

[@rtrgirl417]

I'm an atheist who was raised as a Baptist in the South. So I find high-demand religions and cults fascinating because I have been observing often problematic beliefs as an outsider since I was 13. Fell into this channel recently. And it's been great. I just... in what world is saying "they're nice" in that tone not judgemental? I'm all for believing in whatever brings you comfort as long as doing so doesn't harm yourself or others. So the idea of basically telling someone that their beliefs are quaint (which was the implication) really bothers me.

[@lvega5606]

Take a shot every time the bishop says I was just concerned and wanted to see where you were at.

[@KathyStrickland-nh9vx]

I feel faith is very personal and being called on the carpet for how someone else thinks it should go is like being treated like a child called to the principal's office. The lds rules and regulations are way out of line.

[@marleymae6746]

Yep, there was no restoration, and this church is a waste of time. Bishop nailed it.

[@livin4thelionofjudah]

Yikes, "We have the truth and more," "We can progress beyond just returning to Heavenly Father." Heresy. Pure Heresy. Also there is ONE mediator between God and man- the Lord Jesus Christ. Not the Bishop. And Joseph Smith was NOT amazing.

[@lilmishell1977]

Yikes, sounds like a creepy cultish interview! Lol. I have never been so happy after I left ♥️. I am more spiritual now than I have ever been (than when I was a member). Thank you for this John! Namaste!

[@lindaconley5366]

AaX,l

[@ScottBub]

At 29:00 there is a discussion about good values. Faith and obedience were two of them. Someday I hope there is a discussion around these two things and see what John’s current view on these are. I think faith as a virtue is awful. It’s like telling people to walk around blissfully in ignorance or saying just believe things for no good reason. For obedience, I don’t think that’s a good value either. I don’t want my daughter to be obedient to me. I want her to explore herself and her mind and assess what is healthy for her. I want to come to agreements and hope to pursuance her to feel the same way logically, not because some authority said something. Conversation anyone? I’m sure a year or two from now I’ll still feel about the same as I have really explored these topics.

[@mormonstories]

Brilliant points Scott!!!

[@ScottBub]

@@mormonstories thanks! Hopefully others might feel the same! If not, I’m willing to come back and try to persuade others or change my mind if there’s value in them.

[@Hallahanify]

Have johns beliefs changed alot since then? I cant imagine the john delihn from today would want his son to be baptised

[@timnewman1172]

If only these things all went like this. It would be nice to thing that your clergy was as open and listening to doubts and concerns...

[@reasonforbelieving8388]

Thanks for sharing this John. I really appreciate where you were in your process and your desire to baptize your kiddo. It’s a shame that an untrained lay person is in a position to interrogate someone’s deeply personal beliefs. I don’t know if I’ll bother resigning. I’ll probably be in the chapel to support my family on Sundays. But I will never subject myself to an “interview” ever again.

[@sedonarose7563]

I call it “divorce” haha. I finally took the time to divorce the church with their cruelty toward queer community.

[@typing_social_catalyst]

#ProtectEveryChild #MormonNoMore

[@JosephTravelHiking]

I like this bishop and also I believe he understood you

[@christopher6082]

This cult stole my daughter and acts like they’re doing her a favor.

[@elderbroomhead2671]

You should tell your story, preferably on Exmormon Reddit. Be careful, I know of one young Mormon wife and mother who committed suicide last summer.

[@utah133]

The spying stuff is very cult-like. There's really no other way to frame it. What's that calling named? "Spiritual investigator?" "Divine Detective?"

[@HPRWorkingDogs]

Thanks for sharing

[@Snowball9208]

Holy commitment pattern Batman!

[@JohnReynolds-t3y]

Odd no prayer was offered at the beginning or end of the meeting. Usually they always want to start with a prayer to set the tone of the meeting.

[@Richard.Atkinson]

As an atheist, I find myself completely agreeing with the Bishop's point at 37:54. If you believe in the Mormon priesthood, then you should believe their doctrine that women shouldn't get it. If you (like I do) find that repugnant, a rational person would realize that the priesthood is a ridiculous concept invented by a conman, and wouldn't want women to have it. Similarly, I disagree with Jewish people who are offended that Mormons baptized holocaust victims. If you don't believe in the Mormon temple mumbo-jumbo, then why do you think it even matters? Lots of effort and emotions are wasted on this kind of pointless bickering over totally nonsensical myths and magic spells.

[@lottiefaith6935]

This is so hard for me to understand, and I am trying. It didn't seem like you were talking about the same thing although you were both trying. He seems to believe the Mormons are the only one true church.

[@ZeBeFruity]

They prob recorded it too, but were so obviously wrong that their disclosing it would only play against them.

[@jumpropestairs6129]

Runnels was a fun one...What kind of church thinks parishioners are perfect; church concel?

[@ehhhh765]

the parameters for figuring out an ipad 😂 "lighter than a laptop?...so like a big kindle?"

[@utah133]

"Leadership roulette." I'm a very clear apostate, not only refuting Mormonism, but refuting Christianity and even the existence of Jesus as anything but another myth. But still a member of record with no particular restrictions. Being a rather old man is an advantage. They care more about younger people who are deviating from orthodoxy. More tithing to lose, more kids to lose as to tithe payers! I'm not on the radar, apparently. Until I start a blog or YT channel.

[@harlanurwiler7146]

Very entertaining indeed! As a Catholic Christian, I want to announce that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, that there was NO Restoration of the Gospel, and that the true Church that Jesus founded is still with us today: Matthew 16: 18-19, 28: 19-20. Ave Maria. 😊😊😊 FACT: Mormons will never become their own "gods." That is a fiction created by the false prophet Joseph Smith in the 19th century. This view has nothing to do with "orthodox Christianity."

[@namastachi9030]

Who's here after watching the bravery of Heather Gay in RHOSLC! John I'm sorry you went through this. You were grown man being traumatized by another fully grown man. I cannot process this. This goes for alllll religions = if you have your child involved in anything like this : IT IS CHILD ABUSE

[@ashleymccready978]

Can you explain how it is child abuse? Genuinely curious, I've had a few adult lds friends complain about abuse but haven't heard of child abuse. I haven't watched the entire video as I am writing this comment so please be kind

[@metacomputer]

I wonder with the new Handbook that no longer has excommunication councils, if past excommunications will be changed to a different status?

[@gracebe235]

Robert Brown.....You mean retroactive? Naw. It will be business as usual. The church has a history of ‘ignoring’ their history....and hoping that its members have short memories. They will just do as they have always done when changes are made, and continue on as if it’s always been that way.....and discipline or excommunicate anyone that questions this too much. Just like the church never apologizes for any past historical boo-boo’s, because to do so would be to admit error and/or call more attention to something that they just want to go away.....like the fact that they are constantly changing a ‘restored’ church. And now their recent excuse for constantly changing an already ‘restored’ church is that the church is still in the process of its restoration. Yeeeeah, riiiiight.

[@moniquedelaney7958]

Good on you John for doing this .

[@moniquedelaney7958]

What is a temple recommend ? What is a testimony ? Serious questions from a free thinker who never belong to any religious group

[@gfullmer]

They let you record it?

[@christie8493]

I honestly don’t know how I haven’t been ex’d yet. I am an actress in the sin next to murd3r field. It doesn’t make sense. I thought this would guarantee my excommunication. On a serious note I really thought I would be ex’d and don’t know how I’m not.

[@suigeneris2663]

Heartbreaking. But let’s face it: an hour with Ned Flanders truly teeters on the edge of that Ninth Circle. You even went for the substantive convo. A valiant effort, but he was not the droid you should have tried to connect with, just sayin.

[@Monica-gene1]

I could never be part of a church where I felt I was talking to me judge mental boss! Ick!! Or to pay! Also, why do these Bishops, etc all sound like Mr. Rogers?

[@downy1202]

This is just so gross to interrogate a member of the church, especially when LDS believe what they do (celestial kingdom with their entire family) and it hinges on you not speaking on doubts or questioning faith that so many do. I think any church that goes to lengths to question or to search people on their social media is just AND to use that against them when it comes to their church and their eternity. I feel sorry for each LDS member that struggles with doubt or anything that goes against their manmade rules. I find it really hypocritical when churches lie to their members about things like church finances, history which is against God. It’s all just so weird. I didn’t hear any empathy for you TBH John. I am so sorry.

[@scottkandee3517]

To suggest you are "just a member who had doubts" feels disingenuous. I had an LDS independent bookstore and remember well in 2005 when your podcast started. I listened often over the early years of your "faith crisis". From my experience, you went years unfiltered slowly shifting toward attacking the Church. I have NEVER supported the LDS Churches position on same sex marriage and other positions you've mention with no risk of loosing my membership. Your victim position for me leaks a lack of integrity and possibly with the intent to manipulate donations. My last observation is you are talking on these interviews as one who knows it is being recorded therefore I see you as an actor calculating your comments to look or sound good for your intended audience. These men are busy people who have jobs, families, oversee the daily needs of running a congregation and you intentionally try to "catch" them saying something you can use against "the church" while you carefully craft your side of the conversation for public consumption later? Trickery isn't sincere doubting.

[@robertleftwich1122]

If one changes their beliefs on religion, isn’t it best to disenfranchise first before you get expelled , then it’s not such a big deal ?

[@DuchessChau]

my thoughts exactly. But some people try to just hold on as much as possible. Changing your religion requires you to rewire your brain, and some of us are slower at it than others.

[@lcutie36]

Sucky part about this is that it should be the quorum of the 12 that we need to stand before of, not these local leaders who does the dirty work for Salt Lake.

[@gregorypalmer6271]

Hea... man... u should have Dr. Mary Neal on your show... that would be a trip... she talks about the after life... being saved by Grace... etc... it would be great!

[@lisapurplehayes]

18:45 wow invasive. Idk how these self righteous persons go on about honesty and morality yet they will look you right in the eye and say a boy got a good book from an angel.

[@MisterTipp]

I don’t understand, I’m reading the saints books that the church publishes on their own and they are pretty open about the polygamy and Joseph smith issues. Why was this a problem in your interview?

[@DuchessChau]

they are open now because they weren't before and people were leaving because of it. And even now what they say is the vanilla , make you feel good about it, kinda of story.

[@justanobody0]

not a mormon, I don't believe there is an angel moroni (I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ) I'm glad things worked out for you

[@silverlightsinaugust2756]

This guy, at least, didn’t do anything bad that I could hear, except repeating the old “be here, or be square.”