THE EXPANSION OF ULTRAMAR! IS GUILLIMAN RIGHT OR WRONG TO SEIZE CONTROL?

Hi all Rho here! Today we talk Guillimans expansion of Ultramar, and his placing Astartes in positions of power. Is he right or wrong to do so?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
Games Workshop does not endorse or support this video. All views and opinions expressed in this video belong to Wolf Lord Rho and in no way reflect the views or opinions of Games Workshop Ltd.
All art used in this video belongs to the artists.
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Music belongs to Wolf Lord Rho.

[@thecommentguy9380]

Whether Lion approves or not, Guilliman is the only primarch who knows best how the wheel of politic works. Remember that Guilliman ran his worlds so well that the Emperor did not make any adjustment when he came to Ultramar.

[@daniels7907]

Exactly. Ultramar was such a near-match for what the Emperor himself was going for that he allowed the empire-within-the-Imperium to exist unmolested even as Guilliman expanded it.

[@saltedllama2759]

And other Primarchs ran their successful conquests, conversions, compliance campaigns, etc., of a system by Guilliman for approval. In Ferrus Manus, Ferrus knew his task in that system wasn't complete until Guilliman came by and approved it. In other texts, Horus always felt nervous that he wouldn't be as "perfect" a world-builder or politician as Guilliman.

[@daniels7907]

@@saltedllama2759 - The Emperor's plan for Mankind was nothing like what ended up happening after the Heresy. While every Primarch has superhuman ability in many areas, each of them tends to favor a particular one. The Emperor approved of Guilliman's organizational skills and the way that he encouraged meritocracy in the governments that he designed. Once the ass-kicking is done, it is necessary to rebuild societies into functional and stable systems that do not require constant military rule. Guilliman was the master of doing this and the Emperor was pleased because it advanced the Imperium.

[@carlstanford7607]

Guilliman coming back as ‘sad guilliman’ is one the bravest plot choices GW has made. It’s great. He’s genuinely stunned by how messed up everything thing is and pretending it’s ok to rally people and keep things together. Poor guy

[@RichardStrong86]

I don't think he's fully pretending everything is okay. He did make big sweeping changes, so much so that the corrupt rulers of the imperium publicly rebelled. An act Guilliman predicted with such accuracy that he made sure they were all executed by assassins the moment they made their move while he was off-planet.

[@bobbyrabii2402]

Ultramar is a stable, safe as possibly can be in 40k and its people are happy hard workers, expanding that is great for the Imperium.

[@childrenofthesun471]

Don't think people are happy slaving away 😅

[@TinTin77x]

@@childrenofthesun471 still better than the rest of the imperium

[@childrenofthesun471]

@@TinTin77x i dont actuall know the environment of ultramar so I take your word for it

[@GrumbleGrimbus]

@@childrenofthesun471 I don’t remember where I heard it, but the Ultramar system is a meritocracy, so everyone there pitches in one way or another

[@bright3975]

@@GrumbleGrimbus Still has a secret police, tho

[@kccustodes2618]

Didnt Guilleman tell Dante to improve the condition of the people, to make living worth it, to make living in the imperium a good thing? Seems to me Guilleman has a better vision of a great life for humanity than humanity itself does. Ands also to all the critics of Guilleman, STFU as long as Custodes are following him around. To criticize Guilleman is to commit heresy. The support of Custodoes IS the support of the Emperor.

[@NineSeptims]

Doesn't matter if space marines are running the show they are still human much more so than the primarchs.

[@fozzilla123]

@@NineSeptims Erebus is more "human" than Vulkan?

[@NineSeptims]

@@fozzilla123 those are two extreme comparisons but I mean SM have memories of being human while primarchs have no such connection to humanity. Vulkan is an exception while erebus is... well erebus.

[@daniels7907]

Guilliman understands the value of civilians to the military. Unlike some of the more shortsighted warrior elites, he knows where new recruits come from, who builds equipment, and who provides the resources to support the troops. This is why Ultramar was excused from the Tithe. Because Guilliman was pouring those resources into the Ultramarines. The Emperor himself approved of this system, which is why He not only left it as Guilliman had designed it, but allowed it to expand. Ultramar was very much in line with the Emperor's overall plans for Mankind.

[@thecommentguy9380]

@@NineSeptims i think that's the other way around. The primarch were born a tool but raised a human, while the astartes were born human but raised a tool. Except of course the Salamanders and Blood Angels whose primarchs taught them to keep their humanity.

[@remusventanus5341]

I'm just going to say it. Guilliman is doing his best and has my full support. The Imperium needs a swift kick in the ass from the inside to get its shit together. If anything, i think he's being too lenient with them by playing their games. I stand with the Avenging Son.

[@alanaspinall7147]

Same here 😊❤

[@jasonparrish8670]

Two additional facets of Guilliman's strategy are to create a significant enough core of Imperial worlds to ensure the Imperium will continue if another Hive Fleet/Waaaaagh!/Black Crusade, etc, etc, actually reaches Terra, e.g. Imperium Secundus Secundus; and to ensure broad focus on war-making capacity across the entire region, not just a planet-by-planet decision.

[@themajor2190]

Sounds about like Guilliman to do that

[@daniels7907]

This is how the Ultramarines got to be such a huge chapter back before the Heresy. Guilliman designed Ultramar so that he could take full advantage of all the worlds to support his Astartes, rather than focusing on the one world he landed on like many of his brothers did. He knows that he needs a solid power base to support his legions and any one planet, even Terra itself, is not secure enough. The Emperor allowed Ultramar to exist because He felt that it fit neatly into His vision for Mankind. Still does.

[@RadarLeon]

So imperium tertius

[@daniels7907]

@@RadarLeon - Maybe not this time. Remember that Emperor worship wasn't the thing yet back in the old days. Guilliman, being a super-genius, might conclude that one solution to many of his problems would be to allow the Eccleisiarchy to continue treating Terra as the religious center of the Imperium (as the Emperor is enthroned there and it is Mankind's homeworld), while only moving secular political and military government to Macragge.

[@prst99]

Kind of like how the eastern Roman Empire endured after the western one collapsed.

[@daniels7907]

The Emperor himself was too detached from normal people to understand how disorganized such a large polity would naturally become without a central unifying figure simply because He himself was that figure for so long. But had He healed and gotten up off of the throne He would have faced this exact same problem. Guilliman needs to stabilize the Imperium. In fairness to him, even the Emperor was not particularly merciful when it came to worlds that tried to reject His efforts to integrate them into the Imperium during the Crusade. Guilliman needs a solid power base to start rebuilding from. Ultramar makes more sense than Terra because at least before the Heresy the Emperor saw the realm as an excellent example of the direction that the Imperium as a whole should be headed towards. Terra has now become everything the Emperor *didn't* want for Mankind, as demonstrated by the vast power of the Eccleisiarchy and the corruption among the High Lords. He was never infallible, regardless of what the clergy say.

[@banneduser5187]

This is a complete and utter lie! The Emperor was nothing but kind to planets that rejected compliance, he even sent his own son the kind and gentle Konrad Curze and his chosen diplomats from the 8th legion Night Lords to negotiate such matters. They were so good at it in fact that some worlds joined the Imperium in half the time Guilliman predicted. Those barbarians on Ultramar levy high taxes on toilet paper and force education on innocent civillians. Vote Nurgle for Emperor

[@essex3777]

Guilliman was absolutely right to take control of everything when corruption and incompetence rule a stern hand is needed.

[@daniels7907]

@WhiteTowerGuard - Not going to argue the need for one of the more effectively military Primarchs to join RG. Ideally, more loyalist Primarchs will return as well. But at this point Terra is a planet-sized Vatican City and it is doubtful that most of humanity would even notice if RG moved the secular aspects of government and military to Macragge so long as Terra retained the status of "official" capital of the Imperium. In fact, it could be spin doctored as a show of respect for the Emperor - not allowing his "holy" homeworld to be sullied by secular politics any longer.

[@Stylenwavin]

Don't you think Gulliman is falling down the same path? To many he is seen as a God reborn. He doesn't understand the current citizens whatsoever and seeks to dismantle their dogmatic religion and seek near heretic actions by re-engineering the space marines like the Emperor once did. Will he modify them further to the point they are more superior than the dying space marine gene seeds? Eventually the people or a large faction will say enough and call him a false primarch imo.

[@daniels7907]

@@Stylenwavin - I think that at this point, with the Emperor having been parked on the Golden Throne for 10,000 years, the masses will accept any messiah that they can get. Guilliman has more credibility than the Eccleisiarchy when it comes to personal connection to the Emperor. But, at the same time, he has heeded Celestine's and Greyfax's warnings about the power of the Church. I don't expect that Guilliman will try to dismantle the religion overnight. Not when he has so many more pressing problems and he himself has become uncertain about the Emperor's divinity. Guilliman has already proved, in dealing with the High Lords, that he is not oblivious to the new politics of the Imperium. But he could possibly overcome some of them by moving the more secular functions of military and government to Macragge, and justifying it by playing up the "Holy" in Terra and claiming that he's doing it to preserve the sanctity of Emperor's home. Remember, most of mankind has only the vaguest notion about history.

[@feature8]

What if the emperor was wrong, he had Malcador to work with and in the span of 10,000 years there hasn't been another like him. It seems like Guilliman understands the fragility of this current imperium in greater detail than others. Guilliman has been put in this situation where he is fighting on two fronts but doesn't currently have the means to do it right. He lacks the time to be patient and compromise, he needs the strength of the legions during the great crusade.

[@davidthomas2870]

2 fronts? He wishes it was just 2.

[@sthenebehig1039]

@@davidthomas2870 absolutly, Roboute has to deal with the return of Magnus to the material plane, the return of the silent king, the Octarius mess, ghazghkull waaagh, the tyrarnids, the chaos invasion and raids, imperium nihilus and the Ecclesiarchy. 2 fronts, he would very wish

[@feature8]

I was more referencing the great rift and the split imperium's, when I say 2 fronts.

[@davidthomas2870]

@@feature8 the great rift is a huge problem, but it isnt the only one. Remeber all those maps of Ork controlled space? Those didnt magically disappear. Also the tyranids were already waging a war across dozens of fronts simultaneously, the necrons are slowly picking up momentum as they awaken and the Tau slowly gnaw at the imperium heel, the dark eldar are even more of a problem now because there are less resources to available to stop them and what they steal is more desperately needed than ever and the craftwrolders and corsairs have their own agendas including future visions that may or may not see them opposing Guillimans plans. All of these are fronts. The term you are thinking of is Theatre of War, and yes there are now 2 of those where the imperial heartlands were once more like 1, in addition to the 4 sort of boarder Theatres where the astronomican couldnt reach even before the rift

[@LordCommander-ui2fw]

I would argue that Guilliman has a far better grasp on ordinary humans and their thoughts and emotions than most of his brothers because he was basically the only one to be raised in what might call a traditional human family. As a result, he is far more willing to listen to and at least try to understand the average human being than the Lion or Ferrus Manus. His trust can be hard to earn, but once it is given, you have it, and he will speak to you on equal ground, as he has with many human advisors he has gathered in the years since his resurrection. So saying that he is incapable of comprehending ordinary humans and what it means to govern them is grossly inaccurate; I mean, he was already doing so when the Emperor found him.

[@scottdodge6979]

Gulliman is the only one who understands the measure of the common man. I really enjoy how he treats those who have earned it as equals. The man has a supercomputer for a brain but he still is willing to hear out a man or woman who has only lived for decades as opposed to him being 10,000 years old.

[@LordCommander-ui2fw]

@@scottdodge6979 I feel like Vulkan and Sanginius understood it as well, but the point remains valid.

[@ahmadrahman456]

@@LordCommander-ui2fw The sad thing is Sangunius is dead and Valcan wants to protect everyone which is impossible.

[@WarThunder-zt4xw]

All these misgivings aside you have to consider the situation he’s found himself in. Waking up after 10k years only to find the Imperium is a hot mess! He is a Primarch and a General. Any Officer worth his/her salt knows that in a vacuum assess the situation, take charge and seize the day. He has a duty to protect mankind. Well that is hard enough against ruinous powers, hordes of Xenos etc. Add to that mankind itself. It’s degenerated and vulnerable. He’s doing his level best to save mankind from without…and within.

[@goodtimesgamingtm1316]

Dorn from an alternate universe where He was the first one to come back, eye twitching face reddening and trying very hard to not commit mass genocide: “The entirety of the Imperium worships who as a god?”

[@daniels7907]

Imagine that the POTUS were to die and, instead of an orderly succession, an oligarchy of secular and religious elites seized control of America. That is basically what happened to the Imperium. With the Emperor parked on the Golden Throne and the Primarchs gone, the worst case scenario in the Emperor's vision for human self-rule came true. Guilliman is basically imposing martial law because the corruption and nepotism are so bad that the Imperium can no longer perform its basic function of protecting humanity. Eternal warfare was *never* the Emperor's plan, nor was clergy writing their doctrines to give themselves authority over all of Mankind.

[@Zappbrannigan83]

This question would be more pertinent if the Orcs, Tyrandis, Necron, and Choas weren't causing such destruction and if human leadership wasn't so abysmal the last 10 k years. Guiliman wouldn't but if another Primarch came back and just wiped out the human high lords of Terra I wouldn't be totally against it. That's the problem for me when things get so grim-dark that I stop carrying; why am I rooting for the heroes of the Imperium, to allow the majority of humans to continue on in a miserable, pathetic existence compared to what we have been? But oh... Space Marine 2! Sweet!

[@hurricanev6]

True. To my mind, the trouble Guilliman has had whipping humanity into some kind of defenceable shape begs the question: should he even bother? There is little unity, let alone humanity, to fight for anymore.

[@kccustodes2618]

Well said, the grimdark is so complete at times I feel like the Orks are the "good" guys.

[@famforever9278]

@@hurricanev6 lore wise.. 5 good primarchs are lurking. Papa Smurf is meant for the diplomatic stuff. Would be a shame if he is living a deja vu.. (trying to make a name for himself.

[@famforever9278]

@@kccustodes2618 lol funny you say that. My buddy plays orks and we realized orks have worked with humans eldar for metal stuff. Necrons made a deal with B.A. prim. It's now a lore driven game. With hype, no action upon. means downfall for $. Heads up if there is ever a mordtirian nurgle invasion it's cuz Russ got Isha and expect Russ or Khan to save the day for gulli.

[@daniels7907]

@@hurricanev6 - Guilliman asked himself this very question. His best conclusion was that so many people alive in these dark times had been born into this sorry state of affairs - yet still they struggled to survive. I suspect that this is why he wants so badly to restore Ultramar. The Emperor himself considered it an on-the-mark example of what the Imperium should become. Terra is too much of a mess between the Eccleisiarchy, the High Lords and the endless entrenched competing interests. Macragge is stronger ground to stand on right now. The reason that the Ultramarines of old got so large and powerful was because Guilliman implemented efficient processes for fulfilling recruitment and equipment from many worlds during the hey day of Ultramar.

[@viewernewest]

The Imperium was too grand of an endeavor for normal humans. That was the emperor's first and greatest mistake. He thought humanity would rise to the task and rule for the benefit of humanity as a whole. Sadly, in science fiction and reality, we are far too selfish to do that.

[@NineSeptims]

I mean the imperium was doing an ok job with what a shit hand they had up until now.

[@cryamistellimek9184]

It’s not just that we are selfish, but the Imperium is such a massive beast that normal humans simply cannot manage something like that with any manner of efficiency.

[@EduardoFlores-bt4fo]

Completely wrong view, what are you talking about? before the Imperium there was already some kind of human federation and they were doing pretty well. So get out of here with your weird ass interpretation of human nature.

[@kasimmorathi]

Right. Much of Plague War novel where Robute decides to implement the Tetrarchs deals with him grappling over his anger with the Emperor, of the lies he told and the damage those lies created. In many ways, Robute is sort of staging his own mini-Heresy whereby his dissatisfaction with the lies of the Emperor have led him to forging his own path rather than merely being acquiescent. Whereas Horus did so for self-serving aggrandizement, Robute is doing it for mankind - in theory.

[@davidthomas2870]

He THINKS he does so for mankind. Let us not forget that Horrus thought he was doing what was best for mankind too, genuinely believing things would be better under astartes control with the aid of chaos, as did the emporer with his great crusade. Does that excuse the atrocities they committed along the way? Probably not, but like father like son

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

@@davidthomas2870 like father like son but this time the son is actually human the emperor is a detached moronic monkey so blinded by ego that well this happened

[@davidthomas2870]

@@augustuslunasol10thapostle so we see with the benefit of knowing how it ends. What if Guilliman is just as mad as his father and we just dont know it yet?

[@gleenogiets5321]

The Emperor meant for humanity to rule itself but this was during a time of human growth and expansion. After 10000 years of continuous war it might be wise to let those weapons decide on how to fight said war. The Emperor also meant for humanity to become atheist and rely on technology and The Imperium right now is the total opposite.

[@MWH12085]

He's a Primarch. Right or wrong is irrelevant according to The Imperium (apparently) I guess we're just questioning The God Emperor now...

[@henryviiifake8244]

People could have said the exact same words in the exact same order about Lorgar... but here we are. 🤷‍♂️ Give the Inquisition an inch, they'll take a whole planet. The moment they find enough excuses, they'll gladly try to kill him.

[@Subject_Keter]

The great crusade was a great push to add worlds to the Imperium and "Acquire" allies and benefactors after they surrendered NOT to spread religion especially with what emps was saying. The Word Bearers werent even found out cuz of religion cuz they were so SLOW even the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fist were moving faster, I know for sure Rogal built the planets he ran into up into defense compounds. Even Rogal Dorn was faster then friggin Lorgar

[@MWH12085]

@@henryviiifake8244 and yet they unknowingly follow what Lorgar was trying to spread. Ironic. To put it simply. Gulliman was handed 20 pounds of shit in a 10 pound bag to sort through and I think he's doing the best he can. Plus, I don't think the Inquisition is THAT stupid. Imagine if they were successful and another Primarch returns like....Johnson....and he found out they merc'd his brother....bad time for the Inquisition. Besides, Gulliman has already put down a bunch of clowns thinking they're smarter than him.

[@MWH12085]

@@Subject_Keter well it was also to retake the human worlds that were apart of The Federation (I think that was it's name) before the Galaxy went to shit.

[@markrtoffeeman]

One also needs to consider the General's thoughts. Ultramar lacks 'strategic depth'. The 500 worlds had 'strategic depth' in the face of attack. This means this strategy is both a military necessity and The Emperor's will.

[@Falpastymonster]

The big qestion is..."Does the Codex Astartes support this action?" And praise the Emperor for Space Marine 2! Ten years later, Titus has returned!

[@WR288]

Astartes have de facto ruled planets and entire subsectors for a long time, Guilliman just made it official. Let's not forget that Lufgt Huron's regime in the Maelstrom zone was sanctioned by the High Lords before he stopped paying the Tithe and the Blood Ravens pretty much call the shots in Sub-sector Aurelia, to name but a few examples.

[@Kainlarsen]

I can see why he's doing it; He needs to ramp up efficiency in every aspect of the Imperium he can, and the best way to do this is to assign Astartes to command positions. There is a HUGE threat to the stability of the Imperium, and baseline humans are simply too slow to act in a unified fashion. It might go some way to mitigating any tension however, by having human advisors work with Guilliman's men in a manner that would not make them feel sidelined or resentful. He is having to walk the finest of lines with this, but there is little to no other choice in his mind. If he hesitates, the people of the Imperium will suffer more.

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

As always Rho, great video! That being said I think you ran a bit far afield on this one. Guilliman was raised and kept close council with baseline humans man than nearly any other Primarch by an order of magnitude. Only the Khan, Sanguinius, and Alpharius come close, and he is still ahead by a land slide. I believe there is also the recon dilation effect going on here because since his return they have truncated the time of his activity by a significant amount so with the case of Guilliman making changes and establishing a mandate to rebuild Ultramar at this point he is rebuilding infrastructure so that he can actually get a grip on the situation and build from there. Also another thing to keep in mind is that like the Emperor, all of the primarchs are designed and perfected warlords, meaning that in a time of war, which the Imperium has been experiencing for millennia, they are cold, ruthless, and will do whatever is necessary to get the job done. In what way, knowing that baseline humans will live and die in the time it takes him to span the galaxy does it help him to have them running key pieces of the war machine? Also Astartes have no designs on the accumulation of wealth or power for the most part, so putting them in a position to be arbiters and governors is actually helpful as it allows the mechanics of the system to function, less impeded by the machinations of greedy spoiled elites. I think if you look at the situation that Roboute is currently placed in, he is uniquely coming to understand the position his father was in. He isolated like never before and had to now make decisions that only he can understand the far reaching ramifications of, and I also think he is starting to understand truly why the Custodes were created as a result

[@iamcaesar6741]

Wolf Lord Rho, you forgot one thing in your analysis. The Emperor is using Guilliman as a conduit. Guilliman is a puppet of the Emperor, In the novels we read Guiliman’s thoughts however how about a Grim Dark twist, like in a Sci-Fi horror twist Guilliman doesn’t realize that another concioussness is acting while he is asleep or resting and gives instruction to the Custodian Guard and other secret factions in the Imperium using ciphers and codes only the Emperor knows. Maybe this is a big secret in the novels so far?

[@HTWW]

A right thing to do, yes. Will it specifically cause some bad things to happen? Definitely yes!

[@nixonsprguy3629]

Your nick 😂 Dude, you not only made my day, you made my entire year 💪

[@HTWW]

@@nixonsprguy3629 or what's left of it. ;-) Appreciate it, man! It's a hard, largely thankless job. But someone has to do it, so that NASA doesn't have to.

[@sebdaniel4029]

Space Marine 2 has been announced !!! Ultramarines and ... Titus are back !!! Glory for the XIIIth Legion !!!

[@silversurfer8818]

Anything Lord Guilliman does, is the best path for humanity!

[@madginger3634]

But werent the Ultramarines made to lead and administrate after war was over?

[@brockwilkie6022]

I think he is doing the same thing his father did, again. Things are a mess and basically he is using marshall law on a large scale. Ultramar was mighty and needs to be a strong force to defend the fareast because Guilliman needs to be everywhere else. Like his father who created to Primarchs and space marines as a temporary force to defeat the galaxy so that humanity could then live on in peace, Guilliman has to get a handle on things on all of the fronts before thinking about giving things back to humanity to rule. The Ultramarines in particular were noted to be good administrators to create the best society around them. It makes sense for them to assist at all levels to right the ship that is the Imperium. Guilliman has shown a willingness to give up power when the time its use has passed so temp extreme measures make sense.

[@lead.farmer]

I remember when this channel only had around 800 subscribers. Now you've almost reached 100k. Very happy for you Rho!

[@QixTheDS]

Ultramar is what the Imperium should’ve been.

[@darkscholar625]

I just hope Gulliman meets Titus.

[@mattrodriguez6130]

Rho... You can't say all Astartes lack compassion. Not after how much you've lauded the actions of men such as Pedro Kantor.

[@brownehawk7744]

With him being the only known loyal son alive in real space, he is the only one worthy enough to do such changes. Far as right to rule goes, he has it.

[@Tasomo]

The last time the sons of Rowboat were given large scale governorship we got a Blackheart.

[@MrJara1018]

Guilliman is the King of Ultramar…… as Lord Regent it’s his duty to put Ultramar in best position so it can be an example and give hope to rest of Imperium. It is totally justified 100% . How can Guilliman save Imperium if he cant protect his own home.

[@themagnificentshithawks1400]

When the second primarch arrives, prolly either the Lion or the Wolf, guaranteed, both will see astartes governorship over humanity as a form of heresy. Not just cause they both knew their father longer and believe in the emperor's truth maybe a bit deeper but, also, they both understood WHY they were created. Remember, the Lion and the Wolf both left governorship of their respective worlds, for the most part, to the Humans that were native to those planets... That being said: WHAT IF LIONEL JOHNSON AND LEMAN RUSS RETURNED SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!??

[@lobogonzalo4745]

Maybe I am too biased for been a son of Russ but still ... People is better off asking for love and compassion to the Great Wolf Logan Grimnar than any human of the inquisition

[@EdcelJannMCorre]

You forgot to mention that even the Emperor now is disgusted at what happened to his Imperium.

[@kingofsauce1319]

This is where other loyalists returning could get very spicy. I highly doubt someone like Russ would take the ecclisarchys shit. And that could make for some very interesting scenarios, perhaps full blown civil war even.

[@fedupN]

Completely correct in doing so...as long as it is short term with a plan to transfer leadership. Because Guilliman is an excellent judge of a situation, but someone needs to make sure he remembers the Heresy and someone should remind him of the Astral Claws. On its face, several worlds have Astartes as their overlords, so it's not totally without precedent. I mean, there is Ultramar as well. It depends on how it's set up.

[@Machiroable]

Pretty much. The Astral Claw- Red Corsairs were once one of the most respectable chapters in the imperium, but after being victim of the imperium's red tape and bureaucracy, they pretty much started legion building at their first chance, not mention making their own astra militarum regiment even before that by the name of tyrant's legion. Astral Claws/Red Corsairs are one of the exemples of why Astartes should not rule.

[@joechurchill6945]

I hate to do this but I have to disagree with your statement about the Astartes the end of the deviation of baal Dante cried not because he was in guillimans pressnce but because he thought he failed his people and brothers begging forgiveness despite his victory and Kantor carrying a mother to safety not out of duty but because he cares

[@treasurecave431]

Ultramar is probably the best place to be in all of 40k.guilliman intends to safeguard that just in case terra turns against him

[@davidthomas2870]

I always figured this was more adding a new administrative tier for these worlds. He likely intends for his tetrarchs to leave compliant worlds be and live and let live, and replace the troublesome ones with compliant lap dogs. This is cold, but if any of the tetrarchs have a dispute with Guilliman or each other they could cause an awful lot of damage. The irl tetrarch system in Rome just about tore Rome apart in their time. I expect that his best laid plans will fail when one or more of these tetrarchs falls to chaos or xeno influence or goes renegade on their own, fracturing the imperium.

[@Spygon]

Gulliman is trying to move the powerbase from Terra. He is trying to become the defactor leader of the imperium completely opposite from the Emperor ideals for humanity. Humanity is supposed to govern itself at this rate Guilliman needs a slap to the face and someone to tell him to know his role.

[@JRBDWD]

It wouldnt be the first time the Emperor make a mistake

[@garypipe1770]

There are so many potential stories that could genuinely be awesome for the 40K story. 1. Vashtor and his army attacks The Rock to try and claim a relic needed to create The Key. Vashtor gets the relic but before his forces can completely destroy The Dark Angels for good The Fallen return and Luthur sends Vashtor back to the warp. After the warp beasts disappear the Dark Angels begin to attack The Fallen as that is their sworn duty until The Watchers release The Lion who unites both factions as one.

[@garypipe1770]

2. Trayzn's museum gets attacked by a Tyranid fleet who want to save the Tyrant Trayzn has in his collection. Trayzn's forces are massively outnumbered so he begins to release some of his creatures. Originally only museum pieces he has multiples of but as they begin to fall he realises he needs to release the more powerful forces. He releases all the Space Marine chapters he has and Clone Fulgrim to lead them. Under Fulgrims tactical genius they destroy the Tyranid fleet but when Trayzn tries to reclaim his museum pieces Fulgrim stops him and escapes the museum with his massive Legion size mis-match of Astartes. As Trayzn recovers he realises several other prize posessions are missing including his Krork and The Ancient Eldar Champion he had.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

Even inside Ultramar where Gman can fire and promote people as he wishes, Gulliman still occasionally meets resistance from local governors. Imagine the shit he gonna have to deal with if he try to start a reform in Terra. Ultramar is simply the only base of operation available to Gulliman. Any other primarch if returned will find themselves in constant resistance from imperial bureaucracy and the only option they have is returning to their homeworlds and expanding from there. At least in Ultramar, a change of management can be carried out by a demotion instead of a decapitation.

[@reasonablefacsimileofahuma6788]

Not just Malcador for Guilliman himself the voice missed most is Tarasha Euten his mother on macragge, the woman who called primarchs "boy" who stared down the night haunter after he slaughtered her bodyguard of marines and with tears in her eyes spat at him one of very few humans who had a spine too make marines and primarchs think twice.

[@yesiamarussianbot3076]

Most other primarch wouldn't be as diplomatic or forgiving as Guilliman is, so they are lucky it's him they are dealing with.

[@thechriscrowing]

I think this is especially interesting in the context that the Emperor probably didn't see the Astartes as a long term solution past the completion of the Great Crusade (as Valdor thought, surely there was to be an Ararat for the Astartes as much as there was for the Thunder Warriors) and if he did see the Primarchs as a long term part of his plans it was in very specific roles (Magnus on the Throne for example.) As such, I think its likely that the Emperor planned for a rebellion, just not as soon or as Chaos-powered as the one that came and that threw everything out, even assuming that his plan was goodly in the first place, which is debatable.

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

We need to keep in mind that soulless asshole emperor is a much newer face to the emperor then loving dad

[@monkeeseemonkeedoo3745]

When the Emperor decided to give control to humanity, it was during a time of greater stability. Would he have done in the current times? Maybe the emperor would approve of Guilliman's decisions given the current state of the imperium

[@GnosisZX]

He is right guilliman is master statesman and his world is the most stable of the imperium which serves as an example of what an imperial world should be

[@dadaleous9693]

Yes he needs to for the same reason you make sure the feet of a ladder are firmly planted and on level ground before you climb it.

[@mouseketeery]

Bob's right. The Emperor intended Humanity to rule itself, but only AFTER the threat of Xenos was quashed. Then, of course, there was the Horus Heresy and the strengthening of the Ruinous Powers and access to the Materium through the traitors, and there have since been new Xenos threats - Tau, Necrons, Tyranids. Basically, the conditions under which Humanity was supposed to take over fully, haven't yet been met.

[@markrtoffeeman]

The Lord Commander serves The Emperor. Therefore he is always going to be right. Additionally these worlds were given to Ultramar by The Emperor's writ. To govern in His name. This is ancient. Sanctosanct and The Emperor's will.

[@johnnieschatz693]

More Primarchs need to return!!

[@GENdandyboy]

He should definitely place his sons as governeurs of current and future Ultramar worlds. But what of the other space marine chapters in their respective sectors of the galaxy? I can see many chapters doing a good job as planetary leadership but some are just not made for it. And this could possibly create an open rebellion among many worlds due to greed or just down right distrust, a breeding ground for chaos corruption since the rebellious worlds would out of necessity have to turn to some power to protect them from the imperium. What if many worlds strike deals with xeno races? What if other SM chapters want to govern but are denied to do so? What if other space marines want to form a legion? The possibilities for a galaxy wide disaster are immense.

[@AmariFukui]

Gulliman really starting to step into the Emperors shoes from the sound of it

[@metachronicler]

It is the obvious course of action to get rid of gross inefficiencies in governance during a time of war. He is right to place effective leaders in positions of authority to effect proper mobilization.

[@JRBDWD]

"He is Primarch,you are not."

[@dww6]

Imagine your family was given power 10k years ago by some bloke (UK Royal family is on 1K) . He comes back and he's like "I dun goofed ctrl+z" . It's weird he didn't get an immediate response but I guess fear of space marines wins out. Wonder who else used fear of space marines to conquer the galaxy. Maybe one of those people have possessed the other. Maybe they will do it again.

[@RMRondo93]

Not to sound to much like an Ultramarine but I think this is a theoretical and a practical. Theoretically it's best for humanity to run itself, Practically though that goal can't be achieved unless it's enemies are repelled so a stop gap is needed. The Emperor made the Primarchs to Sheppard humanity towards it's full potential. When the flock is safe the Sheppard is happy to let it roam free and unhindered, when the wolves begin to circle the Sheppard must take control and use his sheep dogs to herd and guide the flock to keep them safe whilst he deals with the wolves. That way the flock will live on and not be scattered and destroyed.

[@TroyWajda]

Personally, I believe that Roboute Guilliman is making the best choice for what has become of the Imperium. The argument that the Emperor did not intend for his "sons" to rule is null as the Emperor also intended to still be up and running about in the 41st millennium, also the Emperor intended on having his webway project succeed to further the Imperium's reach and growth, and the Emperor intended...so much more. Instead he is now stuck upon the throne, his lords of Terra are all corrupt and so compartmentalized that no one has the whole image of anything occurring within the Imperium, and religion once again rules with fear and violence. Now take these concerns from the Imperium as a whole, and shrink it down to just Ultramar. Guilliman is smart enough to realize that there will be political fall out for his choices, so instead of enforcing his decisions upon the Imperium as a whole, he is testing his hypothesis in Ultramar. Should his tests turn out positive, I believe that you will see it enforced upon the Imperium as a whole, which in turn will create another civil war. I believe GW/Black Library is setting up another Civil War story arch with the possible return of other Primarchs, and they're possible railing against the changes Guilliman is/will be attempting to make. Horus Heresy way 11k years ago, and the threat of Chaos while looming is getting repetitive, and so now the best thing they can do lore wise is make loyal brothers fight each other for different visions of how the "Imperium should be". That sort of story arch will then allow new avenues of the the threat of Chaos and xenos influence, while allowing the threat of Ork and Tyrannid incursions all the more threatening.

[@cottermcg123]

Current 40k lore really is turning me off the setting, I’m really tired of everything being about guilliman and the primaris

[@kollakolla]

Agreed, boring af.

[@famforever9278]

Guilliman to me is book 🤓 🗃️📈🗂️📝not 🎖️ smart. He should know better. Even though we will see if he is still the same guilliman or not will come to who/what disturbs the gathering of what's left of the imperium strength.

[@isaacmunoz272]

He’s just a new coach getting a team on the same page…….by force!

[@charlesman8722]

The Lion, Dorn, Russ, Volkan and the Khan shows back up: The f*ck you say.

[@DarkApostleNoek]

Yes....ish. Yes expanding borders of a realm, and creating new realms like this would be a good in case of emergency situation. He does have the right to do this as well since he has the power. Maybe test some leaders and if proven worthy let them a bit more self governing.

[@sheikmuhammad3894]

True, the Imperium has survived ten thousand years without the Primarchs and/or the Emperor leading it. But times change. And with the 42nd Millennium upon us, the ante has been raised sky-high that even the great powers of the galaxy have thrown in their hats.

[@masterofshadowsxix]

The Emperor denies worship 10k years ago, but began embracing it now. What's to say he didn't changed his mind on 'humanity should lead' too? He is a man after all, a rational one at that. Possibility of him hanging his mind shouldn't be ignored completely.

[@Niteshiftmonkey]

While many people may be weary of Bobby G’s taking command of these worlds… showing those governors the ruination that the Death Guard ushers in, they’d be clamoring for more Astartes detachments.

[@robertross9019]

Guilliman has basically declared martial law a tithe Five Hundred Worlds. With this base of support he can, I believe in time show the High Lords how to effectively and efficiently govern. If he’s lucky enough to have the time this, in theory should trickle down to Segmentum governors, sector governors, sub-sector and even system:planetary lords. I’ve little doubt he’s hoping that Astartes rule in Ultimar will weaken Ecclesiasarchy influence in that area and eventually across the Imperium; this is an aspect in which the return of either Dorn or the Lion would be of great assistance as both were, like Guilliman ardent believers in the Imperial Truth. Russ, for all I love the Rout, allowed and even encouraged his sons to refer to the Emperor as the All-Father, an ancient religious idea.

[@willsword8100]

The Imperium needs a hero... it's lacked one since the Hersey...

[@Fstwist3393]

I believe Gulliman is right, he usally is and if he can replicate how the people of Mccrage live then I'd be all for it. I also absolutely love Decimus Felix after finishing "the great work" in which he's just the exemplification of the Tired Ben Afflek meme

[@____________838]

If we look at the HH novels, we’re shown that not only are Primarchs post-humans, and above any human in every way, but their sons, the Astartes themselves, are also post-human. Their bodies and brains are both more powerful than nigh-on any standard human. While their minds are indeed angled towards their own style of war, they are more acute than 99.999% of humanity.

[@TheKlink]

Might makes right. Any chance on what Guilliman thinks of the Kreig? 1:27 Keep seeing this picture. Is he holding a holy lottery ticket?

[@BloodyArchangelus]

Now Emperor can posses Guiliman at any moment and just kill him from the inside... I guess Emperor approves everything that papasmurf doing.

[@johnshepard7630]

He can relate in a way few Primarchs can. He was raised by a loving family. That trait alone makes him worth following.

[@RobouteGuilliman-M41]

Oh, look. Another hit piece on Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

[@epsilon-1138]

It's all in accordance to the emperor grand plan to be sure.. We didn't know what transpire during the meeting of guilliman and the emperor in the throne room maybe the revitalization of the former imperium is one of those and abolishing the imperial cult.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

Guilliman is just like my best friend. Both of them and noble and well intended, both are tireless grinders, both are good salesmen. Unfortunately, both suffer from myopic focus. They lack perspective, don't want to hear anything that might lead them from their course, and really DO need a nay-sayer that they trust, someone more sneaky, sensitive, and subtle then them.

[@jakethompson9814]

Right. they are in a time of crisis where the galaxy has been torn in half by a giant warp tear in reality much like the eye of terror, every signal enemy seems to have been stirred by it and thus are lashing out and humanity is feeling the pressure like never before and they feel it on all fronts.

[@ricardoalonso8376]

Boiyo is gettin real close to a civil war. I just hope some one like Rogal Dorne wakes up and supports him, otherwise I fear humanity may cripple itself from the infighting.

[@neoluna1172]

the thing is, space marines being a little detached is kinda what the imperium needs right now in some ways, most astertes dont treat the emporer as a god, a belief which has corrupted every mortal human mind in the 42nd mellimum, and blinds them to what needs to be to be done in order to save humanity.

[@rindenking1387]

The Problem with this is Humanity had the chance to be better. The question is would you choose the old leaders that instead of striving to be better when the emperor and the primarchs fell turned into the corrupted sespool they are, or to the one historically made humanities life better? You can argue about how humanity should lead but that is already a card been used and failed. The Emperor not being able to heal himself is a testament on this. If Humanity was still properly united and not actually trying to commit genocide not only out of xenos but their own kind because of "Heresy" then even if the Emperor doesn't sit on that Golden Throne then Humanity can actually push back. But no, humanity when left unchecked devolved back to the dark ages much like how witches where hunted. So Guilliman is not in the wrong here. Humanity in 40k needs a spanking and a wake-up call. Guilliman is the bitter medicine that humanity needs in 40k.

[@kb9oak749]

Until Warp version of Big E manifests itself more broadly, Ultramar and Gulliman are the best way forward and really only feasible way forward.

[@mattmonster8402]

If you understand the art of war it effects all aspects of life. He is correct in his actions there are bigger fish to fry and need not deal with the small problems.

[@marrier9999]

G-man did this right thing. Implementing a singular, standardized, galaxy wide network of control and administration is likely what is best. Especially when the current system was so bloated, bureaucratical, dysfunctional, and corrupt in many places that it barely functioned.

[@morgs456]

The imperium is lucky in which primarch came back first

[@combomaster666]

The Emperor intended for humanity to rule itself while save from chaos and xenos in webway. In it's current state the imperium definitely needs to be rules by a chain of command instead of endless slow grind of bureaucracy.

[@mecasheepawesome1469]

Space Marine 2 is on the menu boys :)

[@inthefade]

Guilliman should make a bunch of clone sons of himself and give them armies of clone sons of themselves or something like that.

[@benjaminrobertson2990]

Honestly, it's not so different from what Guilliman was talking about before the Heresy even began. Faced by the same dilemma as Horus ("What happens to me and my warriors when the Great Crusade ends?"), he was already preparing his legionnaires to transition to a peacetime footing, to act as governors and administrators within the Imperium. What's happening now is a rather grimmer form of the plan, with Astartes taking control as military governors without the sort of civilian oversight I expect Guilliman intended in the way back when. In terms of whether it's a good or bad move, it rather depends on how well Guilliman and his tetrarchs can manage the natural reaction. The mass of common imperial citizens will probably not even notice the change, unless it leads to meaningful material differences in their day to day lives--and given how extraordinarily corrupt so much of imperial governance is by M.42 replacing the baseline humans at the top of the social pyramid with ascetic post-human governor generals may actually lead to positive change for the human masses. It can hardly get worse, for most of them. The aggrieved parties will be the baseline human elites suddenly displaced or effectively demoted to make room for the new astartes overlords. It will take a delicate combination of persuasion and outright force to make the existing power structures of the Imperium bend around these new developments without shattering into division; a towering project of statesmanship, which could easily sink into ruin. Guilliman was always the greatest statesman among his brothers, but it remains to be seen whether he and his sons are up to a challenge so far outside the scope of their original purpose.

[@Butter_Warrior99]

Space Marine II is coming baby!

[@GreatChickenGod]

i think the worlds of the imperium should still be controlled by humans, but, if need be, he could establish something akin to Martial Law if the world is about to fall or become a huge battleground.

[@Gunnberg85]

Question: Is Gulliman capable of becoming the next Horus from the pressures imposed upon him? The imperium isn't the way he left it. The Imperial truth is dead. The Emperor is worshipped as a god, while he is alone. The Emperor cannot lead in his stead. The Imperium was at its height (from Gulliman's perspective) during the great crusade. It's absolutely incapable of achieving that level of power and direction now.

[@nerkvititate]

Unlikely he would do his best to not be to glorified on purpose he understood that faith is the only thing keeping it together like duct tape The I question and the Church are the biggest threat and glue so a double edge sword

[@greyknighthyuga4946]

More than anything I doubt he would give Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus and the rest the satisfaction of it happening.

[@nerkvititate]

He may have some words to say to Gold daddy E but he would rather lose his hair and look like Horus than give them any line of I told you so

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

No spite will fuel him to make sure of his loyalty is stil their

[@timenavigator9643]

Yes to answer your question. At least for the near future’s time being imo...

[@sandforthesoul5686]

You made some good points here I hadn’t considered. Thanks Rho.

[@JoacinoDaGona]

4 Tetrarchs, 4 Chaos Gods. Nah, I am paranoid, that won't happen...

[@Tirze]

The imperium can not afford the luxury or "development of humanity" if it is in so dire survival fight.

[@NoNo-ce8xb]

I don't know how to "Fink" But i "THiNK" shits about to get real

[@IronBrotherV]

“Me See’s space marine 2 trailer” - Hey wolf lord Rho wanna play a game…