The Fall and Rise of the American Left - Vivek Chibber

Vivek Chibber explains what led to the drastic decline of the American Left and what it will take to revive it.
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[@ronrice1931]

Vivek Chibber is such a breath of fresh air, he just seems to emanate no-bs energy and intolerance of childishness. His book "Postcolonial Theory" should be required reading. Thank you to Ms. Kasparian and Mr. Vila for having him on.

[@groovalotfunk4147]

I'm glad to have followed him for awhile. His writing is great. He first turned me off as dismissive and arrogant, tsk tsking others. Maybe it was an off interview because he has been great since then.

[@Magicwillnz]

Thank you Vivek. You are so correct.

[@1984levani]

Bring this man to speak every day! Along with Chomsky, I think, Vivek is the most intelligent, clear, and necessary person today.

[@georgeleddy483]

Best commentary I have heard in decades. Vivek is clear and has excellent assessments of all the currents of leftwing politics.

[@locomangenius]

3 cheers for Chibbs!!! Viva Vivek!

[@falsificationism]

At what point do we start to hold union leaders accountable (by replacing them?)? Do we really believe they're doing EVERYTHING they can to fight capital and push for worker rights and for laws helping workers like Medicare for All?

[@groovalotfunk4147]

I struggle with this in light of police unions that make it harder to fire abusive cops, as well as teacher's unions keeping abusive teachers in pay (my son was abused in school so this is not some weird right-wing hypothetical).

[@falsificationism]

@@groovalotfunk4147 I’m so sorry to hear about your situation with the school. I struggle with how to think about police unions too. If police forces are designed (historically and culturally) to reinforce and protect the status quo, it’s sometimes hard to reconcile that with being pro-worker. And arguably, police unions are more effective at protecting their workers than any other kind of union. I don’t think that’s an accident.

[@BartAnderson_writer]

Been on the left for 50 years and agree with Vivek completely. I might be a little kinder to those prophets crying in the wilderness during the 80s and 90s.

[@TiberiusGracchus123]

Wait. Did he just jump from the 1930s to the 1960s, bypassing Taft-Hartley, the purging of both labor unions and civil rights organizations of genuine Lefty leadership, and the systematic shaming & terrorizing of the working class away from Leftism, to the point that generations emerged- ongoing generations, without a clue as to their own class history & what very basic Left concepts (“Marxism,” etc) mean? The McCarthy campaigns not only drove the permanent war economy & imperialism, they advanced the purging and silencing of socialists and communists within American unions. Unions lost the most skilled organizers & intellectuals, those who were the most committed to liberation & transformation beyond the workplace. Unions might have remained a force within the Democratic Party for a few more decades but NOT as a true Leftist force. Had unions remained Left in the US, they would have outlived betrayal and abandonment by the Democratic Party. The offshoring neoliberal turn would not have been accomplished by the ruling class so easily. Had true Leftism not been purged and silenced, the diminishing of class struggle and class analysis in favor of gender and race (as he complains about) could not have occurred. There is no Leftism without a center in class analysis and class struggle.

[@jacobedward2401]

An older coworker was telling me the whole "anyone who isn't liberal when they are young has no heart, anyone who isn't conservative when they are older has no brain" I'm thinking "Ok, well I've gone from being a college liberal to a fully employed socialist sooo"

[@JoaoMoriera2]

The whole premise of that schtick is essentially to trick people into thinking "liberal=activism and conservative=saving for retirement," it's pretty obvious but it's funny how pervasive it is. Doesn't really need to be said for most Jacobin viewers but we don't have conservative or liberals politically in this country, it's a made up dichotomy. You have one behemoth political power swapping shirts for 50 years and voters arranging themselves along those lines based off their choices in a consumer based society (essentially just red vs. blue shopping choices and interests). Everything else is class based, you have the vast amount of Americans who are alienated from the political process and their labor (workers), a vastly overrepresented bourgeoise (cultural liberals, both republican and conservative divided based on culture) and the owner class of big bosses and CEO's. Sprinkle in a few security state neocons and strong men, some conspiracy theorist reactionaries, usually lower middle class americans experiencing downward mobility, and viola, that's American political society.

[@piggyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

I like the painting Vivek has on his wall.

[@jeff__w]

_Melody of the Night_ by Leonid Afremov

[@Jeevanm71]

This is real political education

[@tylerhackner9731]

Labor must rise again! ✊🏼

[@piggyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

✊🏿✊🏾✊🏽✊🏼✊🏻✊

[@karlhoweth9365]

The labor upsurge in the 60s and 70s was complemented and supported by a community upsurge. Welfare demands and wage demands. Capital decided that was too much and completely destroyed that power. But it took decades to accomplish.

[@RobinHerzig]

There was the *Great Recession* in the 70s + the oil crisis + hostages in Iraq don't forget… Then in walks Reagan

[@uninstaller2860]

Unlearning Economics is a great leftis youtuber on the subject, you guessed it, economics.

[@araucaria5173]

Very wise words, that the left has to speak to the ordinary person so as to be heard.

[@RobinHerzig]

The way Vivek describes the 90s - early 2000s is pretty much how I remember it

[@demsocialism]

Re: the new Left splitting from labor, Vietnam is also a huge factor. Labor officialdom thought that the communists were a threat to trade unionism, so they were in favor of the cold war and the anti-war sentiments of the new left helped create a big split. Unfortunately you can see an analogy over climate change/pipefitters etc.

[@tylerscherer57]

How do you build labor power in a post-industrial society?

[@theodore8178]

This needs more upvotes.

[@WalkWalkWalk-c2y]

14:50 - still a big problem lol

[@genxlife]

I say the real dark ages were from 1981 to 1989. Guess who was president back then.

[@jk7140]

I'm starting to think we'll never recover from the damage that musty old prick did. It wasn't anything to brag about before him but what a sick joke this place is ever since!

[@somnitek]

I joined IWW and DSA and I love that I did. I just got my IWW Red Card and if you are not familiar with the IWW, go read about them. Honestly, Revolutionary Syndicalism had some real promise as a means to differentiate from other ideologies which were problematic. I doubt that'll happen again. INDUSTRIAL UNIONISM FOR THE WIN 8)

[@absolutelycitron1580]

Ngl I do not understand the guy's comment on "emotionally crippled wierdos". like aren't those just coworkers and fellow citizens in a democracy even if they ain't got a job? Wtf is a normal person? I get some people can be a bit extra and but messaging matters & there's a lot of people who would be helpful to the labour movement who are also mentally ill and/or social cultural deviants

[@WalkWalkWalk-c2y]

Perhaps they could be helpful, but, depending on the role they play, they can also be hindrance. Being a social/cultural deviant is fine in your personal life, but if their identity becomes the cornerstone of your political movement, then you will have a very difficult time achieving anything because you will be unable to reach the broader working class. Look at the DSA conference from a few years ago with the howling over “gendered language” and people doing the jazz hands and whining about the most trivial of things - is there any chance that this style of “politics” could attract anyone outside of hipster enclaves? Think of it as this way - if you absolutely needed to win over a particular community to side with you politically then wouldn’t you do everything in your power to not turn this community off before they even heard the message? If I’m trying to win over Orthodox Jews then you can be sure that I’m not going to go into their community wearing a tube top and a short skirt - even if wearing such things felt tied to my identity - because that would hurt the cause.

[@jacobedward2401]

@@WalkWalkWalk-c2y I think being an activist makes you a weirdo. I left my highschool friend group because they were boring, they just wanted to play Call of Duty. For me it's "be weird or die", being normal means drinking and pretending everything is fine. In fact, I thought the DSA was too straight laced. It's fine if other people want to do that, but I'll stick with the hippies and punks who will always be here in the background.

[@WalkWalkWalk-c2y]

@@jacobedward2401 yes, in some sense, it definitely does make you a weirdo. Right now, being an engaged citizen in the US makes you weird. So, yes, I agree with you there. However, if your goal is to create change then you must be able to go into the broader society and interact with people on their terms, while still remaining true to your values. So, that might mean ditching the purple hair for a few days or wearing clothing that doesn’t lead people to writing you off the second they see you. If I’m going into a community that holds the police in high regard then I don’t wear the “f*ck pigs” shirt. Politics is not about personal expression, it’s about creating the conditions to enact change.

[@jacobedward2401]

@@WalkWalkWalk-c2y go for it, sounds like you're ready to run for office haha If I was going door to door, I would comb my hair and wear a campaign t shirt, but I only cut my hair when I'm trying to trick someone into hiring me lol. Which, I guess you can compare an election to a very big interview.

[@jonathanrosa7440]

Having been active in left spaces, although I find his wording offensive, he has a point. The American left until very recently has become a subculture unhelpfully dominated by loud cliques of petty people utilizing a thin, hollow veneer of social justice language to project their own personal neuroses onto politics, and then using that as a petty rhetorical bludgeon. Its alienating and ineffectual and does nothing To put it another way, one striking worker is more meaningfully left wing than a thousand booktokers screaming on tumblr that sex scenes in fiction are evil

[@theodore8178]

The 1960s?

[@wora2965]

Nerds!

[@ianszabo2079]

This thumbnail is absolutely horrific

[@biometronome7010]

I don't fully agree with Vivek Chibber's dismissal of the power of ideology. We can analyze what happened with prop22, so many workers were mislead with 'freedom' rhetoric into thinking it's good for them. We can look at how many Amazon workers voted against unionization. Workers are for the most part focused on the wrong things like competing against other workers, and it's not their fault. They're aware of their oppressed situation, but their hopes and dreams are directed towards wanting to be the boss themselves - part of the problem. Workers also suffer from identity crises; my cousin is an engineer who was making +$200k until he was "laid off" because of the pandemic. Highly educated workers like him consider themselves separate from the working class, they actually embrace capitalism, they're mostly blind to the problematic system. And don't get me started on how many academics consider reading Obama's books as a sign of their solid awareness of politics.. Vivek talks about how important it is for workers to have good wages and benefits so that they'll have less stress and get the time to think about the higher mechanisms of the system, and I agree with that, but ideology can't be dismissed there either. So many workers living relatively comfortable lives are bombarded with commercialism and told about what's supposed to make them happy, they spend their free time chasing vapid subjects, and they're convinced that it's somehow scientifically proven that the best way for the human being to behave is individualistically.

[@ryanehnat7458]

Aren’t intersectional dialogue & prioritizing labor not mutually exclusive? I don’t see how dismissing identity-based injustice as basely hysterical is supposed to boost solidarity.

[@totocaca7035]

Because it's not really real.

[@mjsebast]

He didn't say to dismiss identity based injustice at all.

[@thetopface]

Not at all what he said. He is arguing that specific actors on the left have, for decades, deliberately used identity to completely erase any discussion of labor for the benefit of said actors, while labor is predominantly what we need to regain the political power of the early 20th century American left.

[@ryanehnat7458]

@@thetopface Again then, that’s a bad-faith argument. Chibber seems to be scapegoating some broad coalition of “social justice warriors”, when in reality those seeking identity-based justice are not the problem *at all*; rather, the problem is purely that not enough attention is given to labor as the primary priority within the context of modern socialist leadership & organization. The “emotional cripples & weirdos” are not *at all* the problem, unless they can conspiratorially be accused to be complicitly, consciously undermining the success of the labor movement. If these groups are truly as fragile as Chibber claims, wouldn’t these snowflakes be the least empowered subgroup of socialists in terms of being able to get anything done, on account of their fragility? Wouldn’t the blame be more suitably cast on socialists like Chibber himself, who apparently remained stable and enlightened yet failed to get any meaningful socialist organization off the ground? I wouldn’t say outspoken minorities or marginalized identities undermine the labor movement *at all* for being eccentric & assertive; rather, I think Chibber is projecting his own ideational insecurity & failure onto more fragile, easily scapegoated members of his own political movement.

[@thetopface]

@@ryanehnat7458 He's not blaming those simply seeking identity-based justice or (despite the horrible choice of language) the "emotional c******s or weirdos." He specifically accuses the young professionals and PMC in the left at 10:29. I understood him to then be describing the aftermath of this and his idea of how to fix it.

[@albertocasashermida5218]

I totally agree that economics is the core to solve most urgent social issues. Appeal to middle class and the vast majority is crucial. Tough and necessary job, as Jane Mcalevey wisely put it, not for everyone. Blaming “weird” people to be attracted to the left, because they we not good enough somehow and scare the middle class is so wrong. So they should do theater and look more normal or get out? Communication is hard but something in that statement is so wrong. Not everyone has to be a poster-girl for the left, if anyone. That’s Jordan Peterson style: “emotional cripples and social rejects stop playing politics and get yourself together before you try". Also, I prefer emotional cripples and social rejects feeling about themselves in a leftist wanna-be social club than storming the Capitol and writing Q-anon fiction that is taken as reality.

[@Aurelian603]

Can someone explain the “emotional cripples, weirdos and social outcasts part?”

[@eemoogee160]

People who call themselves leftists but mainly are seeking a social group and affirming identity and don't really do "the work".

[@7eventh7ense]

still can't get over Ana smearing a journalist for telling the truth. I don't want to cancel people, like you gotta make alliances with ppl u don't like etc, but fk im finding hard to listen to Ana Kasparian after that smear.

[@alonsofrancescutti4956]

Ana barley spoke during the whole video. Are you okay? Do you need help or a friend? Why do you come here to spread hate and sectarian attitudes?

[@voxomnes9537]

@@alonsofrancescutti4956 Dore sent him.

[@bbqnice1]

nando and ana aren't just normal, they're super hot

[@ronrice1931]

One can only agree! :)

[@nicollaney]

Watch your language the C word is inappropriate especially because it is offensive to people with disabilities.

[@brianlav1]

As someone with ADHD I found his comment very offensive.

[@kevinmayer8055]

A middle-class left, a left without class conflict, is not a left at all. How could we have forgotten this?

[@corneliuscapitalinus845]

People like Anna lol

[@tweaktastic]

The current American left is dominated by people who never wanted to understand it.

[@1monki]

The focus of labor is correct, but I think it's short-sighted to set unionization as the end goal. A union fighting the owners requires there to be a division of labor and owners. And it tacitly agrees that the owners are the rightful heir of production, and the union is interfering in the right. We need an equal focus on worker-directed-co-ops. True democracy begins where most people spend most of their time: at work.

[@Roger-r7s]

Power for powers sake as an end in itself should never be the goal of the left, either seeking, or holding on and keeping it, and that should distinguish its politics from the right. And from the ultra left extremes as well.

[@russellgallman7566]

This was a great interview!

[@crustydread]

Vivek, Analexia, Nando Sil

[@selalewis9189]

I appreciate that he's clarifying that the tendency to misunderstand the importance of labor unions and labor movements comes from the _student_ Left. When you're a full-time student, other than having work study, you're not fully exposed to all the complexities and monstrosities of actually working for a living. But even now, this is a missed opportunity on Vivek's part. There are millions of homeless and hungry college students or older college students who are working full time and raising families that go untapped when it comes to student activism. So even there, the tent needs to get bigger. A​nd on another note, I tend to notice that academics on this channel are frequently asked about their views on race v. class politics. And I often find their answers to be really muddled, convoluted, and confusing. A couple years ago, I took a class on power mapping and power analysis. It’s not something you can just read about or discuss. You have to practice it. I find that conducting a power analysis in coalition with your comrades properly and effectively synthesizes how race, gender, class, etc. manifest themselves in power dynamics.

[@realdanrusso]

Jesus, vivek..... "normal people" ?