Why Doesn't Capitalism Collapse? - Vivek Chibber

[@meekaaeelmccullen3360]

He’s exactly right it’s the material cost not some cultural deficiency.

[@bbqnice1]

yes hopefully full employment will soften some of the risks by making workers more confident that they can obtain other jobs

[@stephenwallace8782]

Vivek Chibber is so crucial, holy hell. Bless this guy, seriously. Straight-talk from an honest man.

[@jerryballstein]

What a fantastic video

[@mojosodope316]

I had not heard of him and this is the first video I've seen with him, but I thought the same thing. This guy knows what he's talking about. I will be looking for more from him.

[@callicles8761]

Please bring Vivek back as much as possible.

[@macgon6551]

Hi, from the Netherlands, this reminds me of a quote my socialist mother used to tell us, in this case about the church, but you can fill in cooperate media, 'the factory owner visits the catholic priest of the village and tells him: if you keep them stupid, I keep them poor'.

[@geoffreynhill2833]

Vivek Chibber is an eloquent, well-informed, perceptive and inspiring speaker. No rhetoric, just facts. (from Green Fire, UK) 🌈🦉

[@Popeslash]

This needs more likes. Also, props to Ana for asking everyone to read Marx and calling out Capitalism on TYT.

[@wvu05]

So true about blaming the wrong people. I remember a few years ago that my brother told me that the real reason why he didn't want to increase the minimum wage because "I like the idea of making twice as much as someone else." The real enemy is not the person making a little bit less than you. It is the person getting more in a day than you do in a year. LBJ was right about giving someone to look down on and picking pockets.

[@seppo532]

I had a therapist state she was against it because that's what she made out of college. She wasn't exactly young.

[@thrashmetaldad]

I had 2 or 3 "holy shit" moments in this short conversation

[@allyson87]

Thank you!! I’ve been saying this for a long time. But what do we do now? The workforce, and population generally, is so isolated and communicate through corporate owned media. How do we safely build relationships?

[@justanotherguy1794]

Debs said to make a friend.

[@allyson87]

@@justanotherguy1794 yeah, I’m wondering how do we do that today. Prior to 2020, it was hard to make and keep friends as adults for many logistical/financial reasons. Now we also have health concerns as well as a general attitude of defensiveness and distrust of others. I’m curious if/how we put more of our resources toward changing this

[@globalhumanism]

​@@allyson87 If you figure it out, please let me know. It's almost the same everywhere I've been in the world. And now it's not just the virus, but popular media seems to be filled with things designed to make us distrust people we don't already know, and even some we do. So many stories about con artists, criminals, psychopaths, etc. I've asked some of my widely scattered friends if they see this too; some do and some don't. Its almost like these antisocial movies/ streaming etc. are another divide & control tactic.

[@globalhumanism]

@@allyson87 Really, in all seriousness, I'd love to brainstorm about this. Please feel free to reply if you have more thoughts. Take care.

[@justanotherguy1794]

@@allyson87 It's always been hard: imagine what the Populists faced when they started the People's Party in the 1890's. It's hard to believe that their successes haven't been matched. To your other point, politically-minded people like us should make friends outside our "peer groups," not to teach politics or to organize strangers, but to (among other things) 're'-learn our politics from other people who've also lived the things we want to change. I find listening and not condescending helps make people receptive and I've never found credentials or "ideas" to be the ground from which you can eventually get to discuss politics - we need personal bonds with the people with whom we need to build and share a better world. No matter how different or 'defensive' the others seem to be, you seem the same to them. Politics is like sex: you can't do it on the first date and expect to see them again. Do like Debs and make a friend.

[@marshallsweatherhiking1820]

It's actually both. Modern capitalism has leaned way more heavily on ideology, but individual fear and self-preservation instinct also comes into it.

[@Anarchist_syndicalist]

Strike fund...lm on it👍

[@marshallsweatherhiking1820]

Another problem in the US is most people are not employed by factories. This means seeing who is "screwing you over" is not always obvious. You can point to the trends clearly showing the already wealthy getting wealthier while the poor get poorer, but explaining the "why" in a way that is both honest and simple enough for the average person to absorb is not so easy.

[@SandhillCrane42]

The service sector enables us to all play domestic servant to one another for our tenuous livelihood.

[@estitt1973]

Regarding Amazon and the unionization effort, WHY don’t these union organizers go to more states and rally other Amazon warehouse workers in other states to take up unionization efforts? It never made much sense that they would only do this is Besemer, AL.

[@TheLeadStriker]

Well the answer is simple, these people are lazy as shit. Look at all these leftist shows for example, they just read out loud articles they find on news websites, then they rotate around and interview each other for their own shows. You think the brain dead union RWDSU gonna take initiative to do anything? These people are just waiting for other people to do the work so they can grift off of it. But no worries though, i think there are other people who get lots done.

[@bbqnice1]

yeah it's surprising to me that the efforts wouldn't take place in more union-friendly places

[@oldstatueface6317]

The only thing worse than being exploited by capitalism is not being exploited by capitalism. - Joan Robinson

[@MCJSA]

The UFW organized in hostile settings in the 70s, but it's true that the unions have been culturally sidelined for generations.

[@jerrynelson5289]

Antonio Gramsci explain it all in "Cultural Hegemony" why capitalism have not collapse yet.

[@charleskummerer]

Funny how Ana doesn't realize Chib is critiquing her entire career with this dialogue. Good stuff Vivek

[@demsocialism]

"The death star in star trek" noooooo

[@coolbanana165]

Isn't it a bit of both? The difficulty of rising up, but also ideology? Personally, I wasn't a socialist until I heard about the libertarian socialist alternative to either capitalism or 'state communism'. Until then it seemed like there was no real alternative to capitalism, since the Soviet Union was authoritarian and seemed to fail. I don't think most normal people know there is a socialist alternative which doesn't lead to 'authoritarian communism'. So you need to empower people to be able to rise up, but also provide a legitimate alternative as well as a criticism of capitalism, no?

[@justanotherguy1794]

Yes, it seems to be a bit of both: Marx's "Communist Manifesto" was a direct appeal to the factory workers and was addressing the ideological aspect Chibber described and the false consciousness that we all recognize today. But, it was also a rational appeal to them to consider his prescription for taking action to improve the material condition of their lives. So, it's ALWAYS been both. As for a fully formulated alternative to capitalism, Marx thought that free adults would attain to the kind of rational politics that would lead them inevitably to "communist society;" but his Enlightenment faith in human nature/goodness (at least initially) left it up to them/us to determine for them-/ourselves what it would look like. Rest assured, however, that we won't even achieve anything like the (imperialist, but still) social democratic society of the Johnson administration in our lifetimes, so don't worry so much about what you call it. NB: While listening to Chibber today, I kept thinking of Debs' instruction to make a friend: the oppressor has already spoken to the people whose help we need to build a better world; we have to meet them where they are - even if it's the abyss - and learn with them what our future will look like, together, no matter how hard it is. As socialists, that's where our politics begins.

[@caballosinnombre3981]

we got to stay human and not act like computers/ that is a collective and personal effort, for everyone, dont you want somebody to love? that is the path of the real revolutionary the field of her horizon if destiny.

[@FirstmaninRome]

Hell yeah! Amen, Workers of the world Unite.

[@FirstmaninRome]

I feel only marxism or class consciousness cuts through the Wokism, tribal partisonship, feminism, racism, idpol all of it.

[@phis7230]

very interesting!

[@fredericchen8132]

Basic fact of capitalism: Its self destruction (causing proletarian revolution overthrowing current economical-political social order) is not "inevitable" in the historical sense -- it is only a potentiality which is inscripted in the structure of capitalism.

[@CLoveR52806]

Are we supposed to ignore Ana's connection with union busting TYT?

[@danyalghaznavi6818]

Yep, she's problematic in more than one way, all that liberal "have your cake and eat it" problem. She has no grounding in the left, bt things change quick.

[@ianperfitt]

its material and a consiousness issue. we have to have a spectrum of bottom up solutions. Unions, radical municipalism, dual power, maybe start a party rooted in metworks of worker coops and democratic institutions, book clubs, mutual aid etc....

[@piggyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

It’s an unfortunate fact that using words like “organise” wouldn’t be allowed to be a trend by corporate social media.

[@locomangenius]

if we were right-wingers, organizing around hate and stupidity would be all the coverage...oh right-

[@kirkbaker5073]

Shouldn’t we seek to make working peoples solidarity ubiquitous throughout the entire economy where solidarity is expected and even demanded across industries. I mean if the whole country would be as disgusted with Amazon or Frito Lay over the mistreatment of their workers as the whole country was with cops over the treatment of George Floyd then big business and corporations would be begging for mercy. But for some reason economic justice just doesn’t motivate people as does racial justice although solving issues of economic justice might make it easier to address the racial justice issues.

[@wvu05]

@WTFViewer Indeed. I didn't hear about the strike until it was almost over and didn't find out it was resolved until last week.

[@jeff__w]

The painting behind Vivek Chibber is _Melody of the Night_ by Leonid Afremov. (There was a favorable comment about it in the previous video.)

[@pequodexpress]

This leads us to some of the reasons why there is a hierarchy of professional athletes and entertainers who receive high incomes. In addition to providing the circus part of "bread and circuses" for overworked masses, they maintain mechanisms for a perceived meritocracy that implies people will be financially rewarded for working harder and developing their skill set.

[@LongDefiant]

The "Aristocracy" of Labor class... If I can do it anyone can!!

[@FreakyBr0]

spot on

[@Bjorn2055]

Vivek is totally right. The formula is more like War on Communism became the War on Labor. Ideology + money system exploiting the weak role of non-unionized employees. If you consider the 7x credit creation since 1970 over (labor) values added GDP, 85% in financial assets (capital), while wages grew 127% less, taxes increased more, prices for Housing, Healthcare & college outgrew net income of bottom 50% 5-6 times, you end up with US Capitalism = Divide & Rule 🇺🇲 😱😆🤣 Fear is a strong political force, cleverly incited.

[@stevenbones9906]

it collapsedd years ago i cant say the exact date probebly 2008 what we have now is oprate fuedlism

[@jefersonlemos4135]

something I learned that also did happen is inside the companies, critical race theory used in a way you have on a dynamic, some people of a minority telling some other considered upper in an hierarchy how they should know their privilege in relation to them. Seems like divide and conquer

[@SP35640SNAKE]

A lot of times once some minorities make it out the hood and move into the suburbs they often do little to advocate and contribute to a system that would be beneficial for those who weren't so lucky

[@professionalhater5229]

very true

[@christopherdean759]

vivek may have just won me over.

[@Disentropic1]

Couldn't have; your philosophy is only a matter of material conditions, not consciousness-raising.

[@caspar_gomez]

sensible guy

[@jollyholly2851]

Nothing new; Marx wrote about this.

[@MCJSA]

Yes. Respect the dignity of labor. Stop saying "Trumptard", "Neanderthal", "Magat"... That's not going to change anything.

[@idicula1979]

The capitalist system and just having a butt load of money presents this perfect illusion that we ALL have or are capable of falling under, where it can cancel out every other aspect to life and just day dream of how just living on a King Ransom or if we the Midas Touch all other aspect of me life would just be perfection. But what makes an illusion so enchanting that one can never see beyond the illusion, to see how Midas's touch perverts and lessens his humanity till one day he turns even his own flesh and blood daughter to common currency.

[@eliyahubenysrael6272]

Well said.

[@kashafahsan4693]

Got notification on perfect time ✨

[@arshbad1]

Ana kasparian and the younger turks have been doing this shit for a decade…. How didn’t she instantaneously apologise is beyond me.

[@tomtesoro5465]

Divide & conquer

[@tylerhackner9731]

It should

[@yumeriagirl1231]

Excellent!!!🎯 Spread this message

[@eliyahubenysrael6272]

Professor Chibber is great, but gotta disagree. Working people largely want to first survive with basic amenities and second, actually be the head ***** in charge themselves; become the capitalist. There's little organizing not just because people know its hard and don't know how to get there, but also because they don't want to get there. Seriously, most aren't checking for anti-capitalist socialism and are more or less content with their familiar misery; which is better to them than the unknown they've heard can be a lot worse. Its hard for us who have or are building a clearer understanding of capitalism, socialism and change in society, to relate to people looking at it so differently than we do. But most are not revolutionaries, let alone Democratic socialists, by a long shot. The professor is letting a lot of these rightwing people off the hook, wrongly. The left's approach may be ineffective on conservatives, but there's truth to it; you gotta understand, you wont get everyone to agree and unite; some portion will remain against it no matter what-because that's their religion.

[@Disentropic1]

What he said needed saying, though. Whether he's exaggerating the importance of strategic considerations or not, it's one often-overlooked axis on which the tide could potentially turn.

[@eliyahubenysrael6272]

@@Disentropic1 Good point; I really like professor Chibber and I'm glad to hear his analysis; and while I think it misses on capitalist programming in the culture, I dont consider that some kind of deal breaker, just a consideration to take up in the struggle he's describing.

[@addammadd]

Thing is, Chibber is so stuck in his own ideological bubble he can’t see that he’s on the inside looking out as opposed to the other way around.

[@rileychu4489]

noam chomsky's explanation around this subject go much more in depth but good video

[@stephenwallace8782]

Hang on there! I have to say, as a great fan of Noam, he himself has said this in personal correspondence about Chibber: " It’s always been hard to keep the left on course. Chibber does an excellent job." I was mentioning to him how Chibber has taken on all of the ID politics focus and the stripping of the left of its anti-capitalist core as a result....Jacobin Mag's been so on point and I ended up sending an excerpt of Chibber's to Chomsky in elation. He also says of Chibber's book on Post-Colonial Discourse, it's "first-rate." So I don't know if they're friends, but they are men of the same cloth. There are reasons to be optimistic - for me, Chibber's presence is one of them.

[@allyson87]

I’m sure Chibber has more in-depth analysis. This is just one interview, not the entirety of his work

[@tusharsingh4543]

Only serious person on here is Vivek. Everyone else is either are PMCs or petty bourgeois let’s be real 😂

[@globalhumanism]

Vivek ... I really appreciate your thoughts. But twenty years ago, it wasn't just talk of intersectionality ect., even in grad schools (and why would talking about this be a bad thing, in its own right?). Not where I was. Grad students tried to organize through the UAW because they were willing to come in and help us. No one had time for "virtue signalling." We were overworked and trying hard to organize and collectively bargain in the face of the obstacles you mention, and more. Why not try to organize the academics you're living among into one industrial union?

[@karlhoweth9365]

Now go donate to a strike fund.

[@Ocinneade345]

All wobs need to understand this

[@ryanehnat7458]

I'm seeing a trend here, of Chibber blaming riled-up marginalized peoples for the disorganization of the labor movement. & I think that's bullshit. Chibber conflates "racial rage" & anti-poor sentiments, in the above clip, as corresponding prejudices together derailing the labor movement. Mind you, these two concepts are diametrically opposed- "racial rage" is founded on real-world relative structural injustice, whereas anti-poor sentiments are a result of the echo-chambers of the self-righteous elite. It follows that people of color are more-than-justified to rage against the machine (rioting is the floor as far as I'm concerned), a race-based machine at that that actively chokes their lifeforce & stifles their potential. On the other hand, elites who pass poor people on the street and later recount "Ew, poor people." are grievously less justified in their assessment. Instead of telling marginalized groups to simmer down to join us, I believe it would be more apt for us to boil up to join them. Organizing a fiery, impassioned solidarity is much easier & long-lasting than organizing a blank-slate labor force in which all intersectionally marginalized unionizers must leave their personal injustices at the door. Let's organize under the consensus that white people have been collectively off to an unfair start. Let's organize under the consensus that everyone deserves the dignity to voice themselves with nuance in any movement, especially labor. Let's organize under the understanding that we are more than the roles our employers impose on us. Subtle solidarity is worth it.

[@troywalkertheprogressivean8433]

@WTFViewer occupy had a message. we leftists have clear manifestos. the rich know exactly what we want, exactly whats going on. nobody gets to pretend that the message is confused.

[@troywalkertheprogressivean8433]

@WTFViewer the same message its been for thousands of years: kzbin.info/aero/PLXwwoN4Y_asaJWt669mhUiv4_NZQ2Ce2Q

[@ryanehnat7458]

@WTFViewer I do agree that we need clear demands, in proportion to how much power our unions can levy. What I'm saying is that racial justice & other identity-based justices need not be substracted from that messaging. Lots of people found it sort of corny, but I loved when Bernie Sanders would list off all of the marginalized folks his movement was aligned with during his rallies: "the blacks, the Native Americans, the queer folks, women...", because it demonstrated that he incorporated identity-based justice into his socialist vision. I believe that is one of the reasons his campaign got so far. I believe leftist organizers can learn a lot from Sanders' approach there. :~)

[@rousseau049]

Are you guys really serious about Socialism....? The problem with the Socialists and the Left is they never understood the Epistemic/Knowledge politics of Neoliberalism. Sticking to 18th century jargons like class consciousness, labour and historical materialism.... is not gonna help you address 21st century Neoliberal politics. What is the definition of workers and labour in the post pandemic Digital Capitalism? Prof. Chibber should answer it first. I think he is addressing 20th century factory council problem....

[@bbqnice1]

restaurants, factories, warehouses, ports, mines, schools, police departments, fire departments, construction sites are all still present, big, important

[@molibergayson5346]

why does hairline collapse?

[@christopherdeangelis2954]

Listening to this it occurs to me that were unions to extend strike funds to workers attempting to organize it would change the cost/benefit analysis workers make. Another way to think about it is that, given the hostile legal environment for. Organizing a workplace, unions are delegating the decision of who is a member of a union to the corporations trying and succeeding at keeping them out of the workplace

[@glm4054]

⚡🌹🗡️👺🌠🌠🌠

[@EvanWells1]

Nothing is going to change until Gen Z is as old as millennials are now. We will support them where Boomers would not support us.

[@dinobotpwnz]

It depends on the issue. Most people at the Free Assange protests I went to were boomers. Plus millennials need to learn that helping Gen Z means voting in primaries more.

[@agabrielrose]

Occupy made me feel like there was less risk in turning my back on the system

[@YoY664]

Vivek Chibber is the last guy capable of answering this. If anybody can engage in selective misreading of history its this guy.

[@grayskyephoto4918]

I find Vivek's analysis of there being one or another perspective lack luster, especially if he is claiming a "materialist" (read marxist) perspective. It's just as much a folly to say it's a cultural issue as it is a materialist issue. The answer should be no a duality, rather, dialectical. The material realities influence the cultural understanding of that workers have about themselves and their conditions. This is obvious as Vivek makes the argument immediately after that class consciousness requires an understanding of who the enemy is: not racial ethnic, etc. Rather: elite, property owning, etc. This is clearly showing that the material conditions *require* a simultaneous cultural/ideological understanding.

[@CaleBrooks]

Yes, but Jesse what you’ve stated is a truism. Of course material conditions will have a cultural specificity or flavor. But saying that doesn’t explain anything. What Vivek is doing is looking for a causal mechanism that explains the outcome. Why workers don’t revolt has much less to do with any specific cultural practice or idea and way more with the structure of power and ownership within Capitalism. Because if the answer is just bad cultural attitudes or bad ideas, then all we have to do is provide better ideas! And we’ve been doing that for decades while conditions keep getting worse.

@@CaleBrooks In addition to that, it is naive to think that Vivek would not know what dialectic, which is what Kapital tries to build on from the get go, is.

[@ENoob]

In this job market it's much easier to just change jobs.

[@Jeevanm71]

Vivek has a weird classification for what constitutes “the left”. It seems as if sometimes he classifies the Democratic Party as the left vs a small group of progressives who just arrived in the past 5 years.

[@allyson87]

Yeah because it’s a context specific term

[@LongDefiant]

Neither of those are the left

[@Baman21]

The moral of the story is: A sh*tty job is better than no job at all.

[@danielh5159]

this guy is making as many sweeping generalizations as the people he's condemning

[@eddiepanta4866]

Today, the power in the worker is in recognizing their power as a consumer.

[@nigelcox-hagan6820]

The power of workers as consumers is extremely limited compared to their power as organized labor or voters. For many workers, what they purchase as consumers are things they need to live and have to buy and that’s just one example of the limits and issues with consumer power.

[@eddiepanta4866]

@@nigelcox-hagan6820 That isn't true today, and especially not since the covid shutdown. Economic recovery depends on the consumer being ravenous, and they have been. I just don't believe we can continue to separate these modes of citizenry Worker/ Consumer / Resident. Ben & Jerry's and other Corps conduct boycotts to promote social change. We live in a consumer society.

[@eddiepanta4866]

But I'm not saying it's the best way or even the right way to gain power. I'm saying we're in the upside down now, things are different.

[@stud6414]

What happens when there is no more rich people then who becomes the enemy?

[@CaleBrooks]

Would love to find out!

[@seta-san2149]

Every time a liberal lectures me on what is in my best interest I vote republican. Because of this I’ve never voted Democrat

[@wvu05]

Great strategy! How has that worked out for you?

[@seta-san2149]

@@wvu05 fine

[@esmith6656]

and u watch videos like this for a belly laugh ? shouldn’t u watch matt walsh or ben shapiro

[@figgettit]

kasparian is such a joke. she just repeats back to chibber what he has just said. i genuinely hope she gets cancelled just so that she stops wasting space and time.

[@ruyuchen2378]

Your dream!

[@libanali2088]

If you wanna shit on capitalism please produce something better, because people who live under other forms of governments/economic system are fleeing.

[@leeporwoll2380]

Um yeah, they're fleeing because 'Murica keeps bombing them. Do some research!