The fall of Rome and Oerth's Twin Cataclysms

[@williammeek7218]

Hello Grognard, Greyhawk is the best setting. Mystara is where I played mostly . Last in Wendar ended up with a Barony . Split groups up sent one to the underdark of Mengol Mountains, the other one to the spaceship crash. I stuck it in the northern Mengols. That’s where they’ve been for 40 years . I kept all my books and minis have every 1st edition manual included and numerous modules.

[@AAron-gr3jk]

It's such a vague event. There's a real veil of history over "the before times"

[@mightyeroc7284]

Merry Christmas Grognard! I like the comparison to the fall of Rome. I think the about 1,000 years is a great benchmark.

[@freddaniel5099]

Always enjoy the information on Greyhawk that you provide on this channel. I personally think in Gary's day it was common for us gamers to draw heavily on history for inspiration and to incorporate that into our fantasy worlds - at least that's how remember things being. Many of us held a great love for history and were understandably inclined to create our homage. Greyhawk seems to do this in a less heavy handed way than many other fantasy worlds did that were developed and published in those days (Mystara/Hollow World). The entire trend of drawing upon history seems somewhat less common today - although it is still somewhat present (Game of Thrones). Original thought or more heavily disguised "history" seems more to my liking as simply changing a few names while retelling the same old tale can grow thin after decades of rinse and repeat.

[@mmelmon]

The Fall of Rome was a big deal for western Europe, but the rest of the world continued with business as usual, allowing Eurobumpkins occasional contact with civilizations that still took baths. The Bronze Age Collapse might be a closer analogy, insofar as it destroyed Civilization As It Was Known in both Europe and the Middle East, and gave Egypt one heckuva smack (though they did manage to hold on). A few hundred years before the Bronze Age Collapse, the Minoans appear to have been at what we would consider the "classical Greece" level of development - but over a thousand years earlier. The Minoans were destroyed when a volcanic island exploded, which is very Invoked Devastation-ish. That allowed naked Greek bumpkins to run down from the hills, conquer Crete, learn about Minotaurs, and have great parties - until the aforementioned Bronze Age Collapse sent everyone screaming naked back up into the hills.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Given that the Flanaess is still a very close European analogue, I think the comparison still makes sense. Although it would be neat to go back further and see if there's something in the timeline that corresponds to the Bronze Age Collapse...

[@mmelmon]

@@GreyhawkGrognard I don't know enough about Greyhawk history lol. My impression had been that after the Twin Devastations, everyone in the Flanaess was pretty much cut off from "civilization as it was" until the Aerdi pulled their kingdom together, which is why I thought of the BAC. But on further reflection, I guess the demi-humans at the very least were still there and doing fine. On further, further reflection, I suppose the episode with Original Vecna could be compared to the BAC.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Bathing didn't fall out of favor in Europe till the Black Death and the pore-infection theory.

[@tr349]

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Grognard! Nice Comparison. Personally I have thought of the Great Kingdom as Rome in the rise to a kingdom, then to a Republic and finally to an empire when it finally fell.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

And a Happy Christmas to you and yours.

[@deadlyDM]

Your channel is a treasure chest full of great ideas. Merry Christmas sir 🎄

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Thanks so much!

[@hunding1978]

In my campaign I've reference the twin cataclysms to my player has the focus point where magic first appear, first given to the Suel Empire, then assimilate by the Baklunish Empire. With this new found power both Empire jump start their civilization to new height and faster than they could control. Since both kingdom had access to this new kind of power (think nukes in modern time) it wasn't long until they try to use it against their neighbouring enemy with a single purpose to kill them before getting killed. Obviously such power used that way culminate in the rain of colorless fire in retribution to the Invoked devastation. Leading the Suel to start the great migration and the Baklunish to retreat to their few remaining holds in Ket. I've decided to change Ket into a Caliphate rather than a Feudal monarchy to immulate their Arabic influence. Then the Baklunish became more concern that those power can once again used against them and shunt the research and the development on magic for commoners but still prosper out of it. Then during the great migration, the Suel spread the use of magic in various kingdom by inadvertence leading to the spread of magic to be more readly available thoughtout the world. But thats just how I like to make it lined up the story for the Twin cataclysms.

[@TheTimeshadows]

The d20 version of The Iron Kingdoms setting was definitively* based upon Gamma World, but leading towards Greyhawk, meaning that the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colourless Fire (or the Apocalypse War of Gamma World) are the 1000 Year Ago event(s), and the Artefacts and Relics of the prior world were the fabulous inventions of 22nd/23rd century Earth. The clockwork contraptions of Kwalish, etc. are the latter, lower tech (survivor) creations which are still marvelous by Greyhawkian standards, and represented in the Iron Kingdoms setting by Steam Jacks (their construction is directly taken from the Gamma Knights boxed set). Moreover from a in-world chronology, many of the monsters of Oerth are surviving mutants (again GWs snd sharks, become IK creatures, which become bullettes ) -- yes, IK was published afterwards, yes, GW came afterwards, but in the 'fiction' of the setting, Dawn Patrol/Tractics/MetAlpha/(Star Frontiers)/Gamma World/(IK)/Greyhawk. Speaking with Dennis Sustare back in NTRPGCon 2010 or 11, he made it clear that Druids of A/D&D were there to curb the loss of human-friendly environment by monsters, and that Rangers were their tool for targeting those creatures. * Definitively: In a rolling conversation with then lead story/world guy, Douglas Seacat, he acknowledged that I got 99.99% of the references correct, but didn't seem to think that Marrow was the same Morrow who founded The Morrow Project -- but I still maintain that he is the time-travelling mind-mage.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Honestly don't know much about it. I will have to check it out.

[@TheTimeshadows]

@@GreyhawkGrognard Cool, Enjoy. I'll go further and suggest that there was a second Wild West era after the collapse, and that the quasi-deity Merlund/Merlynd is from that period, rather than from historical USA. This is reflected again in IK by their 'arcane duelist' class.

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@TheTimeshadows I really only read up the Iron Kingdoms setting in its Warmahordes 2e and IKRPG2e era and I quite liked it, but then the timeline advanced and I lost interest. A nice mostly-cold-war is the most fun,

[@johnedgar7956]

This is actually a really good point! Thank you Grognard; this had never occurred to me before and I've been a "Gold Box fan" since the 80s. 🙂

[@benstormrider7173]

I never thought to compare Rome to any of the two Empire of the West. The Aerdy great Kingdom seemed for me to rather be compared to that. For the twin cataclysms I always saw them as an analogue for the atomic bombs and the fears of the cold war, kapitalists and communists could wipe each other out if hostilities ever heatened up. It fits for the 1970s and 1980s too, when the game and Greyhawk were created.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

There's certainly a bit of the Cold War "mutual annihilation" thing involved in the imagery of the Twin Cataclysms (but as usual, Gygax puts a uniquely asymmetrical spin on it). But I think in terms of historical impact, the Rome analogy still applies.

[@Satori2046]

Pretty nice and inspiring point of view ! Merry Xmas Grognard !

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Merry Christmas to you too!

[@davidleonard8547]

Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year to you and yours if we don't see you until after the holidays.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you!

[@GRWelsh7]

I think some of the Suloise people who still strongly identify as Suloise like the Scarlet Brotherhood might see it this way, but for the Oeridians it was the beginning of their dominance. I suppose this analogy works if you see the Grand Suel Imperium as Rome and the Oeridians as the Goths and the Great Kingdom as the Holy Roman Empire.

[@anthonyhargis6855]

Happy Frigga's Day to you. Like the analogy.

[@dangarthemighty0980]

Merry Christmas Grognard

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

And to you and yours!

[@Amesang]

I hadn't quite thought to compare the fall of the Suel Imperium and Baklunish Empire to the fall of the Roman Empire; I suppose due to their near-mythological status, my first thought would be the fall of Atlantis, especially due to the whole "fall as a result of sudden destruction" aspect. Then again, did the people of the 1500s ᴀᴅ look back at the 500s ᴀᴅ with more of an eye for "historical accuracy" than the people of the 500s ᴀᴅ looking back at the world of the 500s ʙᴄ? I'd imagine the advent of the printing press and the growing availability of books made recordkeeping that much easier. (Also, that reminds me that WotC released .PDFs of "The Greyhawk Grumbler" broadsheets back in the way. _"It's only slander if it isn't true."_ ) On a personal note, my favorite 3e character, Quintessa, certainly "pines for the Suel Imperium" (being an evil sorcerer with the Pureblooded Suel regional feat), even allying with the Scarlet Brotherhood… but for mainly the same reasons as Walter Donavan in _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_ - she doesn't actually care about their ideals, she just wants access to their lore and artifacts to further her own ambitions: becoming the next "Mage of Power." One of these days I need to reorder all of my notes regarding the Suloise into a properly edited, "diary-like" document. (On a similar note, it always bothered me that the Baklunish Empire's equivalent spellcasters never seemed to have an appropriate title, being referred to as "wizard-clerics" or "sorcerer-priests." In that vein, I like "Holy Magi," or, perhaps, "Mystic Theurge" in reference to the 3e prestige class.) Also, neat to see I'm not the only one to give a "Germanic flavor" to the Oeridians (well, Germano-Mediterranean considering their typically olive complexion). I even went so far as to learn enough of the German language to make a Saltmarsh native sound "authentic" (due to comparing Keolandish's ancestor tongue, "Old High Oeridian," with "Old High German" …and because Korinthe Brauerin is a cleric of Wenta =3).

[@1979fsa]

Merry christmas!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

And to you!

[@sststr]

Ah, there's the pronunciation of 'Nyr Dyv' that I use. I noticed in a different video you used another pronunciation. This is a complaint I have across the whole of fiction - the use of names with unobvious pronunciations and the author gives us no hint as to what they have in mind. For Lovecraft at least, he said it didn't matter because the names were not meant for human tongues, so you can't truly get it right no matter what pronunciation you use for the various names. Few other authors have such an excuse. If you are writing fiction and want to use weird names, put in a footnote or an endnote or an appendix or something that gives us the pronunciations you have in mind for such names. Narrators everywhere will thank you for it.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

According to someone on TickTock, the biggest similarity is that they are both fictional. 🤣

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Yeah I've seen responses to that. In the words of Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon!"