The Fall Of The Eleventh Legion - 40K Theories

For as long as anyone can remember, the second and eleventh legions of the Legiones Astartes have remained something of a mystery to scholars, due to all information pertaining to them being erased from Imperial records. But has information regarding as to what became of both the eleventh legion and its mysterious Primarch finally come to light?
Featuring Haven Kendrick as Hastius Vychellan
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Yohan Gasmask as Colquan
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SuperAnchors as Rogal Dorn
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Intro theme by Stringstorm
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Additional audio editing by Officio Audiorum
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Additional artwork by Genzoman, Disarmonia and L.J.Koh
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[@dondavenport7077]

What REALLY happened: Russ: At long last, Malcador, I return to Terra after finishing my charge. Every member of the 11th legion has been eradicated. Malcador: Um. You mean the 2nd, right? Russ: No. The 11th. The [REDACTED]. Malcador: I sent you to exterminate the 2nd legion! Why did you destroy the 11th? Russ: I have your orders right here! Look! Eliminate Legion 11! Malcador: That's not an eleven. That's II. Two! Russ: Oh... My bad. Do I still need to destroy the 2nd? Malcador: Yes! Russ: (Sigh). Ok. I'll be back. Malcador: (Under his breath) I should have sent the Lion... Russ: What was that? Malcador: Nothing.

[@Sorain1]

This is exactly the kind of black humor that TTS would have as their explanation. I love it.

[@guyver441]

ROFL! That's ONE mystery solved...

[@skunk9939]

this had me laughing so hard nice 1

[@daverage4729]

Cue 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' theme music as Russ realises his boo boo. 😄😄

[@sircdrom]

Classic Russ. You could easily follow this up with Russ coming back after having taken care of the second legion too. Russ: Finally I'm back and have now exterminated the 2nd legion. All is well in the end. Malcador: Good! Now I need you to go bring Magnus and his Thousand Sons to Terrra for cencure. Russ: What if they resist? Malcador: Just take care of it, Leman. Russ: Take care of it. Gotcha ;)

[@ZIktheAlmighty]

In my head cannon , the 11th was too chummy with xenos , having landed on a world that had a thriving civ that was based on coexistence between humans and some other species . After reuniting with big E , he was promised his world and people would become part of the empire , and he went off to fight like a good boy. At some point coming back home to find it wiped out by one or more of the other legions , at the order of the Emperor. He didn't rebel or fall to chaos he just left , took his ship and what ever was left of his people and left the empire all together. Malcador and the Emperor simply couldn't let the others know that leaving was an option so, wipe their memories and pretend he did something so bad as to need to be erased for history.

[@masc6287]

I like that idea along with them forming their own splinter group and returning at the end times to pull a Gandalf "Forth Eorlingas" scene to try and save his estranged family kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3LTdH-YnKZ4a6c

[@CrusaderSports250]

@@masc6287 yes, being told we don't need you and leaving would have massive ramifications for the others and so what thay did could never be allowed to be known, rather like the idea. I have my own legion the Chrome Warriors, the entire legion being sent away by the emperor just before the Horus Herasy, but on returning the warp held them back without them knowing, on returning to Terra they belive they have been away for a few months when in reality its millennia, some legions they called brothers are now dishonoured traitors and legions that have loyal and glorious battle honours didn't exist when they left, this has created a degree of mistrust and confusion between the parties and so the Chrome Warriors have taken themselves out beyond Pluto while diplomatic talks take place, they are relitivly safe from Terran aggression as they are a pre Herasy old style legion and are therefore significantly larger and more capable than a downsized post Herasy legion, because they had effectively disappeared they had been written out and forgotten they are now something no one knows how to deal with, sending them off to fight anyone except chaos would probably be a good thing.

[@ASNS117Zero]

I actually like this a lot.

[@richardtrue2758]

Thats great head canon if I do say so myself...

[@l.r.j.r.6356]

​@@CrusaderSports250 pretty cool

[@maxy1172]

It's good to hear some of the TTS Voice actors voicing 40k characters again in all honesty

[@supremeghost7950]

That was a true ASMR moment for me.

[@josephskiles]

That will always be the voice of Rogal as far as I'm concerned

[@charlesdunn6694]

It’s a bit confusing hearing these particular Custodes NOT talking about their “oiled, quivering abs” though.

[@Toasty_Britches]

It has made me overwhelmingly happy.

[@totallynotalpharius]

@@charlesdunn6694 agreed

[@guywholikesmemes4993]

Honestly I really like the idea lorgar was buds with the 11th primarch but after the "incident" he became absolutely shattered by it and it really fucked him up mentally, made even worse when big E inevitably went after him too for the whole worship thing.

[@jesseberg3271]

That was what I took from that exchange as well.

[@guywholikesmemes4993]

@@jesseberg3271 something you gotta remember was lorgar was a pretty lonely primarch with very few brothers who liked him. If the 11th was one of them, it makes all the more sense it would hit him hard.

[@supremeghost7950]

@@guywholikesmemes4993 I like your way of thinking.

[@anshumanbose5132]

Good theory but the timelines don't add up.

[@guywholikesmemes4993]

@@anshumanbose5132 admittedly the time of when the 11th goes off the map is a bit shady and quite iffy. Besides even if we take out the idea lorgar didn't have the tragedy of monarchia shortly after being sad, he was still sad non the less if the vorbak's statement is any indication.

[@jadedkratos5528]

I miss these theory videos, I hope there are more theory videos like this coming in the near future. Would be really sweet if 40K Theories could clear up the inconsistencies there are in regards to Saul Tarvitz in the Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein and Fulgrim novels. The inconsistencies are in regards to his Captaincy.

[@TravellingCultivator]

Well said. While we have received a great number of ideas from Remleiz, the pursuit of Truth and hidden knowledge - must remain! There are still so many questions I would love to ponder with 40k Theories.

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

I think at that point it’s just bad writing

[@trajanfidelis1532]

Inconsistencies are part of the lore. That's the whole point of "the grim darkness of the far future".

[@jadedkratos5528]

@@Prophetofthe8thLegion It would be nice for it to get cleared up so when / if I want to make a loyalist Emperor's Children Chapter I'd have the correct information to base the Chapter on. However I would prefer to work on a loyalist Thousand Son's Chapter first (and figure how to incorporate the flesh change into it).

[@l33t9r0u93]

@@jadedkratos5528 blood magpies ?

[@rexlumontad5644]

10:46 Magnus The Red: "I PUNCHED OUT ONE OF LEMAN RUSS' HEARTS! WHY DOES NO ONE REMEMBER THAT?!"

[@majordakka5743]

That's like stealing candy from a baby in terms of primarch feats.

[@guywholikesmemes4993]

@@majordakka5743 angron lifting a titan be like:

[@NetMoverSitan]

Spiky tits has done more than that, he took down two Aeldari titan equivalents.

[@thatotherguy8138]

I like the idea that the 11th legion fell to mutation, that their gene-seed was unstable and eventually reached the point where the legion had to be purged - which is what caused Sanguinius to be afraid when Horus discovered him putting down one of his own mutated Astartes. And that other than that, the 11th was an all-around decent dude, which is why he's remembered fondly by his brothers. (with the notable exception of Dorn AFTER Malcador "unlocks" his memories... every other comment by the Primarchs is positive, Horus is willing to attack Malcador over destroying his statue, Robute leaves room for them at his table... yeah, I'm gonna trust Malcador is just "unlocking" Dorn's memories here... right...) As for them being erased from history, my headcannon is that the Randgan were NOT Xenos, but were actually a potent group of Humans (who may or may not have been Mutants, but at the very least modified themselves in radical ways) who were able to rival the naecent Imperium. I think of them like the Ousters from the Dan Simmons Hyperion series, and I have the 2nd deciding that they were a better choice for Mankind than the Emperor - so he left the Imperium to join the Rangdan. Him alone, not his Legion or his Astartes. (some may or may not have decided to join him of their own free will) The 11th joined him to try to find a cure for himself and his Astartes, as the Randgan had far more experience with this kind of issue than the Emperor seemed to have. This, of course, is completely unacceptable for the Emperor so he ordered the Rangdan utterly destroyed. Because neither then 2nd nor 11th actually TURNED on the Emperor, and both had good reasons for what they did (let's fact it, Emp's is a pretty nasty figure all told, and a lot of Primarchs were uncomfortable with massacring Humans who simply believed different things than what the Emperor believed), the other Primarchs held them in fairly high regard. But what they did was such a threat to the Emperor and Imperium that they had to be entirely written out. It's one thing to have an Enemy to Conquer, but it's entirely another thing to have a Peaceful Human Rival who might actually have a better idea than you. The first you can Defeat and gloat about, the second you have to entirely remove so no one gets the idea to recreate the Rival. That's why the "overreaction", and part of why the Traitors haven't been given the same treatment. (also, without the Emperor to actually to the Psychic manipulation, it's hard to do the same thing.)

[@EarlofAthol]

HERESY!

[@RaimoKangasniemi]

When the Emperor hasn't apparently even given up on Mortarion, and almost couldn't kill Horus, it would seem that the Emperor would have tried everything else before having the missing primarchs killed. So my uneducated bet would be for the primarch being imprisoned as proposed after 11:35. I also doubt that the Emperor would have allowed Malcador to have the primarchs' skulls as effectively trophies - that wouldn't be in character for either the Emperor or Malcador.

[@Hegataro]

Also not to mention that Malcador is human sized as far as we know, and those skulls feel like they're way too small to belong to a 12 foot tall demigod

[@riptors9777]

Well heres a scenario i propose: What if one of the 2 was a mercy killing? There are the in canon rumors that atleast one of the 2 lost legions was absorbed into the ultramarines since their ranks seemed to swell tremendously after one of the 2 legions disapeared. So whatever happened, its very likely that the second and eleventh legions where not fully involved with the incidents that lead to their deletion from history. So the issue must have been localized to the primarchs and perhaps their close confidants. Whatever it was the 2 primarchs did, the emperor decided that the space marines that formed the legions where not at fault and salvagable.

[@Blackeye808]

agree. what if they are heraldry? could the Ad Mech be the remains of the the two? did the eleventh meld with a katarn shard on mars?

[@restoreleader]

@@riptors9777 Mercy killing is truly interesting idea, now i will have to think about this for the rest of my workday :D

[@riptors9777]

@@restoreleader It could explain the deletion from history: a) It was painfull for the emperor b) the empire at large could not be let to know that one of the primarchs fell c) an explanation as to why the marines of the legion werent exterminated like the thunder warriors. So they where still perfectly fine soldiers in the eye of the emperor. And if their primarch had betrayed the emperor or had been corrupted by chaos the emperor would definatly have purged the entire legion. Though their absorbtion into the ranks of the ultramarines was "just" an in universe rumor, but a rumor based on numerical facts aparantly since the Ultramarines grew in number atleast one time one of the two primarchs was baleeted from history.

[@nonimport-ante]

remember just how powerful a psyker the emperor is. just because russ doesn't remember seeing a primarch die dosn't mean he hasn't. i can't remember exactly where it is but there is a moment where Russ remembers astartes killing each other before but can't recall where or when.

[@chrisbennett6236]

The problem with your theory is that Russ is 1 of 2 Primarchs that still has their memories of the 2nd and 11th Primarchs. Johnson of course being the other.

[@nonimport-ante]

does he or does he just think he does?

[@guywholikesmemes4993]

@@nonimport-ante you got a point, bear in mind big E used mind hacks on fulgrim post Moloch invasion making it so even he couldn't properly remember it and he is literally a fucking minor warp god.

[@lolifico_banzago]

I think he kinda remember doing that before going to get Magnus?

[@Fatjimable]

it's also possible that not everything was wiped, leaving selective memories too.

[@SirSpoon]

I think when the time is right, when all hopes seem lost, when things seem dire and at their worst, when GW really wants to try and make some fast cash they'll reveal the primarchs, their lore, and all the goodies they can sell with them.

[@vontheunknown7982]

I mostly think the 11th Primarch is on Terra being held in the emperor palace deep away from anyone.

[@khaimk4r4su]

Could be in the one of those deep dark dungeons... and we know how dangerous they are, or at least are arguably very powerful. A perfect description for a disgraced primarch held captive

[@antilivvy7373]

@@khaimk4r4su or hear me out, the dude was a pacifist and was stripped from there brothers memory's so they never had to fight

[@guywholikesmemes4993]

@@antilivvy7373 that and the big E has shown mercy to morty post daemonhood and even against horus while he was fucking killing him. Chances are he does like his kids, he just sucks DICK at actually saying it.

[@khaimk4r4su]

@@antilivvy7373 i think i no longer need to sleep or work... i need answers!!!

[@antilivvy7373]

@@khaimk4r4su it's ovbs, one grew up with aliens and rebeled cuz of xenocide othere just would not fight. How else could they be failures and traitors with out the mutations of the warp. That or one was a lady and the emp couldn't take it There way the big E's precious soft kid is chilling with some custodies and maybe there mum... Yer the primarchs have one, under the palace of terra at some lake house Swiss style cabins chilling and having the golden boys bringing them food

[@Lumen_Obscurum]

I suspect the two chambers may indeed house the Lost Primarchs, but I wonder if one of them is in fact a Perpetual that is more powerful in that fashion than any of the other Primarchs. It would explain why Leman Russ thought Primarchs were unkillable, because he executed the 11th Primarch only for him to immediately return to life. It is also entirely possible that one of the crimes committed was accidentally revealing the existence of Perpetuals as that in itself would have upset the Emperor's plans. Furthermore, that would explain Rogal Dorn's statement that if the Lost Primarchs were still present during the Heresy that all would be lost. A legion of Space Marines that are commanded by Perpetuals who were themselves betrayed by the Emperor would have completely thrown off the balance of the war. As for the Second Legion, I believe their Primarch could have been a different kind of failure. It is entirely possible that the Second was in fact a Blank. If the Second was a Blank, the Second Legion could have been a failure purely because they didn't exhibit any traits which made them unique, as their anti-psyker presence was below even the weakest natural born Blank. This would also lead to them not developing camaraderie like other Legions, instead working together apart from other aspects of the Imperium. Furthermore, I suspect that the Blank Primarch would be a failure in the Emperor's eyes because without a powerful soul to drive the development of the Primarch's body it's entirely possible that they looked more akin to a standard human. Possibly they even resembled the Emperor more than any of the others, reminding him of the humanity he has shed while never able to experience it themselves. Given what we know of the Pariah Gene, it's entirely possible that the Emperor saw that even a touch of it was enough to weaken an entire Legion while also making it too dangerous for others to try to understand. I posit that the Second Primarch is also a Perpetual, but as their body is not relying on a Primarch soul to drive it to its full height and power it's more of a biological Perpetuality than the metaphysical Perpetuality exhibited by beings such as Vulkan. It is entirely possible then, that each room contains the body of a Primarch that cannot die. One whose spirit cannot depart and another whose body is always alive.

[@masc6287]

Always found the idea of a legion of blanks with a Pariah Primarch who is the most human out of all of them and relied more on his intellect than his weaker body to win battles would be a cool idea. The idea behind their personality would be a good-intentioned and charismatic figure who is a lonely person that wants to be more human so he can get closer to others but is shunned due to their nature as an Omega-Minus Pariah as well as a Primarch. The basis of their strength in a fight would be that they are a Perpetual glass cannon whose focus is on evasion and keeping distance whose intellect focuses on technology, r&d and strategy. Since Pariah's are not well-understood they could use the character to flash out their abilities a bit and delve into the true nature and origin of Pariahs. The downside of a Pariah Primarchis is that the emperor might be forced to keep them at arm's length due to their nature leading, leading to oversight and thus the tragedy that befell them.

[@ianharrison5758]

@@masc6287 I have a homebrew lost primarch that I’m writing lore for, and he’s a blank. In my case it’s the 11th that’s a blank and not the 2nd, and his blankness isn’t the weakest, it’s by far the strongest. It was never meant to be and that was his “gene seed mutation” that sanginius was worried about. His legion weren’t blanks, and were actually not even technically his sons. He didn’t have a normal primarch aura, instead being able to control the negative emotional strength within that field. So if you got close to him he could make you feel crushing anxiety and fear. A consequence of him being a blank is that his warp essence is incredibly unstable and can’t create stable geneseed so his sons are a chimeric mix of the Fists and ultramarines. They had some editing to make them unique but the 11th never had a unique Geneseed of his own that could be used to make space marines. He was erased from history after the emperor realized his blank aura would never stop increasing. It could be contained with forbidden tech but never stopped or reversed. He would eventually be so powerful he’d be able to snuff the emperor out like a sister of silence does to your average psyker. To avoid having such a rival, the 11th was placed in the dark cells and is known as subject 11. A twist is that he isn’t necessarily imprisoned out of jealousy. Blanks can be influenced by chaos, as seen with the black pariah. The 11th was hyper loyal, so the emperor explained the dangers of the warp to him and he agreed to go into stasis and be erased from his brothers minds so chaos can never learn of what he truly is. I also added in a contingency plan, known as the final darkness. It’s too evacuate as many important people and tech from terra as possible and then release the 11th. His aura has been contained, but growing for 10k years. His release would be like a anti psychic supernova

[@empireempire3545]

Beware the Alien, the Mutant, the Heretic: The Primarch of the IInd was a diplomat, gentle and pensive as we know from quotes, a friend to Xenos. He worked to reconcile the Imperium with the Alien races. He failed, but in doing so nearly tore the Imperium apart. The Primarch of the XIth was a mutant, a friend to the downtrodden genetic misfits in the Imperium. He championed their cause. He failed, but in doing so nearly tore the imperium apart. Then there was Horus. The Heretic. He saw the emperor for what he was - a notorious, untrustworthy traitor. He worked to save all whom the Emperor would betray. He failed, but in doing so nearly tore the imperium apart.

[@Gabriell1126]

Underrated comment right here.

[@RSBurgener]

So many players are just knee-jerk followers of the Emperor and so certain that he's the good guy in the story. He most certainly is not. He's a brutal warlord who killed anyone who ever disagreed with him, across the entire galaxy. He might be the most righteous game in town, but that's only because everyone else is dead.

[@mr.raider7865]

Isn't that the point of Warhammer in general though? Nobody is actually a good guy and we are all just like the Khan, we see the bad but we reason that we do not have a choice as such. However after reading outcast undead, I do have a better admiration for the emperor.

[@johanstinson]

Damn my son, this feels.......Right.

[@UGNAvalon]

“A friend to the downtrodden misfits of the Imperium.” -Me after watching Oculus Imperia’s Legiones Astartes videos: “What about the Blood Angels?”

[@wos1223]

Since Horus holds the title of being the first (or at least main) Primarch to fall to chaos I've always figured that the 2nd and 11th Primarchs comitted the other two main sins of the Empire, xenoheresy and technoheresy. It makes sense to me that they ended up on worlds that didn't conform to the Emperor's vision for humanity. One Primarch possibly landed on a world that was home to more than just humans and ended up rulling over a multi-species kingdom/empire while the other landed on a technologically advanced world where AI is the norm. The Emperor would have tried to convince them to forsake their heretical homelands and, upon failing to do so, ordered all memory of them and their worlds destroyed and the Primarchs themselves imprisioned so these heretical views wouldn't spread. This would also explain why the skulls on Malcador's throne bear their numbers... Malcador basically founded the inquisition which is an organization dedicated to rooting out disenting worldviews within the Imperium and the 2nd and 11th are the perfect example of that mission, possibly even being the inspiration for Malcador to create the Inquisition in the first place.

[@marclytle644]

Nah, they put pineapples on pizza. That is heresy.

[@chrisbennett6236]

Techno heresy is a thing that started after the rise of the Church of the Emperor. Don't forget the Imperial Truth is about science, technology and independent thought. Plus of course abolishment of religion. I can't say for the 2nd, the only thing we really know is that he was respected by most of his brothers and that Russ and Dorn are disgusted by what he did. The 11th has had very little lore before now. Multiple sources have referenced the 11th being sealed in a stasis chamber in the catacombs beneath the Golden Throne. The revelation that he was manipulated into treason is huge but still vague. But it does seem like he was loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium and simply made a terrible decision based on information that was false but seemed like the truth. I do know none of the Primarchs speak ill of the 11th specifically and Sanguinis, Fulgrim and Vulkan apparently took his loss pretty badly. I think that further shows he wasn't a traitor.

[@ZeroNumerous]

@@chrisbennett6236 AI has always been mega ultra banned even within the Imperial Truth, so technoheresy is a foundational aspect of the Imperium. It wasn't called technoheresy then, but it's the only suitable term for the absolute pogrom on AI and AI-adjacent research.

[@Farseer1995]

Heeeey, that is a really good one! It would make a lot of sense, actually, and I would be surprised if this doesn't become canon. We know that the Emperor was deeply troubled by some of his sons landing on... problematic worlds. He knew of chaos and he, I am sure, could recognise its presence in the case of Barbarus, for example. It makes perfect sense that at least one primarch landed on a xenos infested world and could not understand the Emperor's need to cleanse the galaxy of xenos presence. And the Emperor had no choice. Although, this doesn't explain why Dorn said the war would be lost. None of the traitor legions, either, liked xenos.

[@xBeasTBeaR]

really good thought process my guy!

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

13:27 "Dorn was simply waxing poetic" *_Impossible_*

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

"One does not wax poetry. One waxes floor or car." - Dorn, probably -

[@cthulhupthagn5771]

Also, regarding to those rooms that Dorn finds, I always took that to mean that he had just come across essentially dorm rooms. Earlier books in the heresy had established that the emperor had created places for his people his soldiers his sons to stay after the war was over. It's reasonable to assume that the 11th and 12th Legions would have likewise had such rooms. And it's equally likely that these rooms unable to be repurposed would have been sealed up by the emperor

[@alextorres5584]

The 11th could have been a sort of counterpoint to Lorgar, in a similar - but friendlier - way that Perturabo was to Dorn. It also leads me to wonder if the 2nd was a counterpoint to Magnus, since I'm not sure either Mort or Russ would count.

[@rexlumontad5644]

The Eleventh Legion is probably absorbed by the Ultramarines which explained the massive swelling of numbers of new Astartes.

[@oliverp3545]

This has already been confirmed to be the case

[@SuperSteelyGlint]

ADB has stated several times that this theroy is 'in-universe' speculation/rumor-mongering on the part of characters in 'The First Heretic', and not 'Author Knowledge'.

[@thewheezychieftain5488]

@@SuperSteelyGlint Important distinction.

[@Alpharius-Omegon]

Hmm interesting theory there, though others could have also taken such discarded Astartes for a more discrete role

[@40KTheories]

@Rex Lumontad I mention this possibility in the video itself ;)

[@khaimk4r4su]

A resounding hurrah to you Remleiz!!! Good to see you dishing out lore!

[@UltimateDeliciousPie]

One of my old theories about one of the lost Legions was this; each Primarch was given a specific purpose. What if one Primarch was to engage and fight the Gods of Chaos in the warp itself? Such was his devotion to the Emperor that he ascended into a warp being but was rejected by the Emperor, his name being Malal becoming Malice. I did also want to tie this into the Legion of the Lost and Damned, but given the info we know, probably isn't true.

[@legregio2]

My guess: one of them was the "philosopher/historian" among the twenty; he analized the Imperial Truth and find it was a totalitarian ideology, destined to fail in the end, and tried to find a compromise solution, bringing the wrath of the Emperor who didn't tolerate deviations. The other landed in a space hulk and become part of a civilization that mixed humans and xenos. When the Emperor rebuked him for such allegiancies and tried to bring him back into the ranks, the primarch revealed he had access to an ancient alien device (maybe belonging to Necron or Old Ones) capable of predictring the future, and that showed him three possible futures: one where half of the primarchs rebelled to the Emperor and defeated him and the loyalists, one where the Emperor vanquishes the rebels at a high price, and a third where the rebellion is nipped in the bud and the Emperor succedes in his plans, and "...it was like watching three different versions of Hell, neither one better or worse than the others, only different". So the two Primarchs vanish from imperial history, one of them dead or prisoner, buried in the depth of Terra, the other escaping from the war and the madness, Far from the Imperium and the Eye of Terror, in a fleet of generational ships, in search for greener pastures.

[@unfortunateson1938]

8:20 I personally think that Dorn was referring to a possible relationship of the 2nd and 11th to Horus, Lorgar, or the other traitor legions as he never outright states that they did anything wrong. Personally, my take on the matter is that the 2nd rejected the Emperor but didn’t turn to Chaos. Choosing instead to flee the galaxy entirely, attempting to take his legion with him to try and make it to Andromeda (unironically the vector that the Tyranids are coming from). Leeman Russ could have possibly tried and succeeded in intercepting them, slaying “The Lost” Could “The Damned” refer to the “Legion of the Damned? Perhaps they did a mass ritual and somehow erased the legion from real space.

[@davetycho8330]

When I first saw that Malcador illustration years ago, I also thought that the skulls on Malcador’s throne might be connected to the II and XI primarchs. However on closer inspection, I realised that the skulls were too small to be literal primarch skulls, so most likely the skulls are more likely to be a symbolic representation of the lost primarchs rather than a literal representation.

[@johanstinson]

Or meant to symbolize the first victims of the nascent Inquisition.

[@guyver441]

Universes II and XI are mirror reflections of each other in Dragonball Super. Malcador could see into multiple realities through the warp.... Coincidence? Probably.

[@oldeskul]

I always thought that at least one of the lost legions and their primarch got corrupted during the Rangdan Xenocides which prompted many of their numbers being purged.

[@Cthulhuforabettertomorrow]

It’s my head cannon that what was left of the 11th legion after the Rangdan Xenocides, where still loyal but tainted by the Xenos. They were not purged but forced into exile to stand vanguard at the limits of our galaxy and they became the Carcharodons. No one knows anything about them, their lineage is suspect and unknown. Their armour, weapons and ships all hail from the time of the Great Crusade, they even speak an ancient form of gothic. I want to even say that Shade Lord Tyberos is the fallen primarch. His size alone makes him a contender for this as if the scaling is correct larger than both Alpharius and Omegon. But like I said head cannon.

[@majordakka5743]

No, it was just mentioned that they participated in the Xenocides in Uplifting Infantryman's Primer. Nothing about them being corrupted AFAIK. My personal head canon is that one of the lost legions was subverted by the Rangdan, which is the reason the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were deployed for the campaign in the first place

[@hel2454]

@@Cthulhuforabettertomorrow I don't know about xeno taint but I posted my reasoning for the same idea.

[@Knights_Oath]

There are some implications the 2nd Legion and their Primarch met some terrible fate at the hands of the Rangdan. Considering the huge losses the Dark Angels suffered. Not to mention it marked a noticeable change in how both The Lion and his Legion operated afterward. Like they had to make up for some failure on their part. It's possible the 2nd were wiped out or worse, the survivors including their Primarch. Were captured and turned into Rangdan versions of Dark Eldar Grotesques.

[@metal_black_x9828]

@@Knights_Oath damn that would be legit

[@changer_of_ways_suspense_smith]

If one of the two legions messed with AI, then I wonder if we'll finally get more information with the Leagues of Votann coming back into the game. Honestly, I'm really curious to see what new lore comes from a race that legit has full blown reliance on AI, something that we have not seen in such prominence for a long time. I'm personally conflicted about whether or not the mysteries of the second and eleventh should be revealed, but it could be an opportunity to only raise more questions than answered. While I like a good unknown, they can become stale or diminished. At this point, the unaltered state of the lore of the two has been "milked" dry and doesn't add much of anything being trapped in a mystery box for mystery box sake.

[@Ceiling_Gato]

My headcanon is that one of the lost Primarchs was raised by Xenos. He was hesitant to mindlessly genocide them, until he flat out refused to obey Emperor's command

[@hubbablahloo1843]

Say like maybe raised on a maiden world by eldar?

[@guyver441]

@@hubbablahloo1843 Oooooh, spicy! Who doesn't love some space elf hottie action?

[@temporarymfz9258]

My emotional cores allow me great joy at the sight of this theoretical. Your return was greatly missed Inquisitor. Hope we get to see more theories coming and some more insight on *Subject 11*

[@crystallkingh3048]

Each primarch has a part of the emperors power, some his endurance, others his tactical brilliance, others still his technial knowhow. We have yet to see a primarch with an intimate understanding of biomancy, and genetic engineering. So that is one niche one of the lost primachs could have filled (unless it was yet another blacksmith). There is a posibility that one of the lost primachs could have been tainted by chaos, or some other means, as one of the reasons Sanguinius feared the censor so much, due to his own wings. My guess is that the Randang were the creation of one of the lost. The product of a lot of heretical experimentation, which the 2nd or 11th would eventually imbue himself with, forsaking his humanity, something the Emperor would see as the ultimate treason.

[@BohdanKaiba]

Happy to hear you narrate again, missed you man!

[@tritojean7549]

if i recall in "The Master of Mankind" the emperor state that failure is in his eyes worse than batrayal. i heard that during the great crusade one big battle was expunged from history and the lost might have been participating in them, so maybe they lost it and to not tarnish the aura of invincibility of the sm was expunged.

[@outis7080]

In the Dark Imperium, Guilliman also says that they "failed", in contrast to the others who turned on the Emperor.

[@guyver441]

Yes, a good point! The failure may have been more metaphorical than loosing a battle, but either why they likely did not shape up to be what the Emperor wanted for his legions.

[@thecruzking]

My head cannon is that one of the lost ended up with the eldar "parents"most likely exodites but a minor craft world works to. He eventually returns to big e but he advocates for some xenos to be sanctioned/vassals. But when big e or one of his brothers genocide a planet with humans and xenos both just peaceful living. He turns away from big e and gets exiled/emprisoned/ killed for it.

[@Biodelic]

I was always convinced that one of the lost Primarchs, after he was "unified" with the Emperor and his brethren, went like: "You are all absolutely insane and completely bonkers. Under no circumstances do I want anything to do with you. I am out of here."

[@r.cdahuman7682]

Great video as always lore master! Lots of interesting stuff in this. The thing I personally latched onto in this video the most is that the custodes retain records of the fall, censure, or destruction of the the Eleventh, even up to the modern day imperuim. It makes sense that they alone would, but it wasn't something I ever considered. The fact that Lorgar experienced some sort of heartbreak due to the eleventh is also interesting to me, because it's so vague as to mean basically anything. It could mean he was forced to do battle with the eleventh legion and his brother, or that perhaps he was close to that specific brother, maybe even in a similar way to the bond between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus.

[@MishraArtificer]

Given the Custodes' long lifespans, it's entirely possible that there are some Custodes still in active service who were alive when the Legions were first purged...

[@r.cdahuman7682]

@@MishraArtificer absolutely possible. at the very least, some of the eyes of the emperor may have been. Though I'm 100% positive the custodes have the best record keeping in the entire imperuim, so they could know that way.

[@Dryzark]

Thank you so much for the upload!! I’ve always been fascinated by the lost Legions & their Primarchs.

[@eyeof3ndr364]

I mean, in one of the latest Warhammer Community posts, it was hinted that Eleven might have just up and left one day, cutting all ties and never being seen again, so there's a possibility that he's out there but doesn't really want anything to do with his trainwreck of a family or the Imperium. If he runs into Roboute again, it'll probably only be when Bobby Blue really needs a hand and Eleven can't watch from the sidelines anymore.

[@Michaeljack81sk]

I still like the idea that either 11 or 2 fell through a warp rift and became Sigmar

[@r.cdahuman7682]

Finally, the wait is over!

[@DRKrust492]

I picture either the 2nd or 11th primarch becoming a pacifist after leading his legion into many battles. He was then either imprisoned or killed and his legion re-seeded as Ultramarines.

[@antilivvy7373]

Why not living on the lake under the palace?

[@Gormathius]

I have a very similiar headcanon, that the 2nd had none of the traits the Emperor wanted from a Primarch or his space marines (i.e being a pacifist and other unwelcome traits in a caste of warriors) and so was exiled on grounds of being living proof of the Emperor's failure, then the 11th later got exiled because he wouldn't leave well enough alone and kept obsessively investigating the mystery of the then only missing Primarch. At least I'm reasonably sure they were "lost" one way or another in that order.

[@jesseberg3271]

@@Gormathius that's pretty much my explanation for the second. Raised on a world that managed to see off old night via pacifism (literally one in a million odds) and just couldn't get behind the Emperor's endeavor.

[@DRKrust492]

​@@GormathiusI've modified mine. The 2nd and his entire Legion were killed by the Rangdan. The 11th was the pacifist and is a prisoner in stasis under the palace in the vault named 11.

[@ArchArturo]

Glad to see you're still around :), and man, with the Votann coming, what a time to be around :D

[@richardmyhan3369]

Nice to hear the sultry sounds of your man. Hope to hear it again soon. Hope your health is getting better. My thoughts are, and have been with you.

[@legionaireb]

Fantastic to hear your voice again, Remleiz. I hope this means your health issues are under control and that we'll be hearing more from you..

I love the foresight the creators of the 40k universe had when they planted this information into the lore. Now thy have this HUGE thing to reveal during the lifetime of the franchise, they dont even have to come up with something new...it's been there all the time. You don't often see that kind of foresight from writers.

[@guyver441]

I like to think that about the writers as well... Or they needed the even number 20 for some weird reason and just ran out of ideas after creating a legion of "space marine werewolves" and "space marine vampires". And "the legion that's really good at building stuff", also the "OTHER legion that's even BETTER at building stuff"

[@chrispink9716]

Oh hey he got Dorn to do the quote. Neat.

[@TheMasterPandaBear]

A delight as always Rem, I still like to think one of the Primachs committed suicide after discovering or witnessing something maddening.

[@Bad-Roll]

I still love the whole Rangdan xenoside conspiracy. A whole cover up of the civil war before the horus heresy resulting in the death of a loyal primarch and their legion and the destruction of the traitor legion & capture of subject 11. The surviving loyalists being absorbed into the ultramarines.

[@izaakanderson7691]

I just wanna point out, its my understanding that Malcador has erased the memory of at least Rogal Dorn in regards to the missing primarchs so if its not directly stated, then its possible that this happened with the other primarchs too. If so, this could explain Russ having the title of Emperor's Executioner while questioning whether a primarch can truly die. He could merely think of it as a bombastic nickname or a reference to his strength that he 'could' kill a primarch without knowing if its possible

[@TheAnon03]

My own pet theory is that one Chapter where corrupted and lost in the Rangdan Xenocides and had to be scrubbed from memory due to Primarch based warp fu'ery. The other Chapter was lost but more in the "missing" sense, they used in the webway project and ended up getting lost. They've been "scrubbed" from the records because the Emperor REALLY wanted to keep the webway project on the down-low.

[@Ginric99]

Got to love the evolution of this lore. These 2 legions where originally stated as “lost” so players could make their own legions. This was before the whole successor chapters etc was defined in lore. Then over time, what is a throwaway line in the first rulebooks becomes a point of such debate in fiction that GW start to put on more and more details.

[@Warboss_Thrakka_Snazzfingas]

I love anything about the second or 11th Legion. Good to have you giving content again Rem!

[@Vandelberger]

Imagine if one of the lost Primarchs had become a demon like being and the other brother had simply defended him out of love. I could also imagine one Primarch joining an alien race as an ally for Federation.

[@Starman_Dx]

I feel it was them going traitor, not chaos traitor, just plain traitor. The respond from the Emperor was to completely sweep this under the rug most likely due to the scale of issue, it must of been small. The only reason why the Horus Heresy is even known is simply due to the scale of the heresy. It would be impossible to contain that, but for the two legions it must've been small of enough to cometely wipe them from history. Dunno, feel that's the most likely outcome. Hope I never know because that's the intrigue of the list primarchs.

[@squishymusic9723]

Nice My personal ideas for the Lost Primarch/Legions is that one of then had such corrupted and screwed geneseed that the Primarch turned into a abomination and had to be culled along with most of the Legion, after their extensive self experimentation made them into monsters. And for the other, the Primarch was raised as a evil despot before the Legion reached him, appalled they killed the Primarch. In both cases the Primarch/Legions were failures, self destructive, and a sign of weakness that couldnt be tolerated.

[@Sorain1]

Okay, I admit the idea of 'The legion killed their Primarch' hadn't occurred to me, but it's a great idea. It would definitely be something the Emperor would have removed from history (to maintain the idea of the Primarchs as unstoppable figures) and would make sense of the emperor's Executioners having fought space marines before. Because without their primarch, no legion could stand against the wolves and their primarch... yet we know a Primarch can die to a legion. Plus, it's a great tragedy that fits in 40k and especially the tone of 30k perfectly.

[@Typhoon-77]

He's back! These videos are fantastic, well done

[@mrw1783]

It's good to see you back posting videos.

[@supremeghost7950]

I missed the voice of Remleiz. That video was not only interesting (for I am a huge HH-Fan) but also entertaining hearing Remleiz' voice again.

[@drhapi5308]

Head canon: one legion fell to Chaos BEFORE Horus Heresy, maybe they had the gift of the Emperors foresight. And one was infested by Tyranid genestealers. 10/10 theories.

[@RSBurgener]

Unfortunately, I don't think we're ever gonna know. I think the implication is that these lost Legions were created so that players could invent their own backstories. But the authors can't resist writing hints that never really come to anything. Personally, I wish they'd just get it over with and give us the official histories. I feel like they already halfway exist out there.

[@jerre3059]

Love to hear your voice in one of those exquisite lore deep dives again Remleiz

[@armytortuga9122]

Discovering a brand new theory video has just made my entire day. Thank you!

[@bruni5289]

This video has given me some very good ideas for a Horus Heresy vidjya game plot line, thank you Rem!

[@thesagepilgrim4441]

So happy for this to pop up in my feed

[@davidmacon1138]

Great video! We missed having you around

[@alpacaofthemountain8760]

Great video!

[@walterlopez5054]

Good to see your pc and health issues have abated long enough for you to make videos again. May the Omnissiah continue to bless your flesh and circuits.

[@40KTheories]

Fun fact, this video took 2 days and multiple attempts to render xD But at least it got done, that's the main thing! :D

[@readingking1421]

Good video! I didn't know so many of the Lost Primarch lore tidbits were focused on the 11th. And I love the idea of a primarch's corpse being kept in the palace's basement. My own pet theory for the Lost Primarchs is that one of them was simply never found in the first place, or at least found after having already been killed, with their Legion falling apart either out of some form of grief or genetic flaw before being wiped out and/or absorbed into another Legion. The knowledge then being suppressed mainly out of propaganda concerns.

[@williamblack6912]

I wrote a short story back in the day about the primarchs of the second and eleventh fighting each other in a miniature heresy...ending with the death of the eleventh and the banishing of the second as background for my custom legion.

[@guyver441]

Always a fun option.

[@prinzdragoon9754]

Could it be possible that Trazyn has some artifacts or even Astartes from these missing legions? We've seen bunch of things in his museum and space marine from a dead legion seems like pristine collectors item.

[@pitchforksdragon1252]

Dope! I've missed these theory videos

[@halloweener3754]

11 is also a binary expression... I think the machine god chose the 11th to be his avatar and Emps had to lock him away to pull off his own Omnissiah ruse. The true Omnissiah is the Emperor's prisoner!

[@canis2020]

Ah the comfy warm hug of a 40k theory.

[@2nd_Reality]

Glad you are feeling better

[@HandsomeLongshanks]

I love how the homage to the 2 lost Roman legions/a way for homebrew chapters to make sense has stirred so many 40k theories

[@anoninunen]

iirc, 11 is the "sacred number" of Malal / Malice. Possibly tried to destroy Chaos using Chaos, but in gaining power became a renegade god

[@pulserifleman4538]

Giving rise to the possible existence of a 5th Chaos God!

[@l33t9r0u93]

Glad you'rre back you old dino you also the tts voices are enjoyable like fine wine.... evil wine

[@SergZpartan]

My guess is desertion, possibly with the goal of finding a new home beyond the reach of the warp, something the Emperor literally could not abide by for numerous reasons. In many ways turning traitor is easier to punish and prevent then someone simply leaving to find perhaps a more peaceful path. The emperor also seems to need the warp to simply exist, not to mention project his power. It explains being able to reintegrate many of the legionnaires into other legions as there was no taint simply reeducation needed.

[@Sorrowdusk]

Maybe they were controlled by The Enslavers 🦑 🧠🦑, or else the Sluagh ?

[@Darksmirk1]

My theory is 2 or 11 landed on a CraftWorld and used his Astartes to protect them. Maybe even fight against Logar with a combined force of human and xeno. Emperor finding out made him furious to use his imperium to protect a Xeno race. Other than that, can’t think of any other reason they should be forgotten.

[@daviewarnock718]

Since GW is finally moving the story forward, and to mention them recently then hopefully they have plans for them. 10k years locked up might have made them repentant. Also would be an interesting twist to bring them back into the fold, especially with The Emperor slowly waking up. Great video, love these.

[@octavius32a64]

i do love a theory's video! well done ramelez!

[@guardianofthetoasters2323]

8:04 I love how we unanimously agreed that this is the voice of lord adorable

[@Voltboy1449]

It is correct

[@barlotardy]

11 broke Lorgar's heart on account of he became a god first; Malal.

[@joeleriksson89]

Welcome back!

[@Matt-md5yt]

Glad you talked about the 11th Legion my fellow Inquisitior. Still think he was cursed with Malice thing since lucky number thing or just gotten screwed over some other way.

[@gafrers]

Absolutely Great

[@stephenmelvin115]

Thank you please keep it up.

[@PVTShadow8492]

I always wondered about the theories in regards to what happened to the missing brothers. The one theory I always liked and subscribed to was that By some horrible twist of fate one of them became Be’lakor.

[@Icspiders247]

Oh boy a Remleiz video and one about the eleventh legion no less. This'll be fun.!

[@gildedbear5355]

I have been pondering the idea that the 2nd and 11th Primarchs (or one of them) actively rejected the Emperor when he came to them during The Great Crusade.

[@gunky9822]

THE KING IS BACK

[@40KTheories]

King, you say? _Ah thank you very much, uh-huh!_

[@ovan2190]

Loved watching this video :) reminded me of when I started getting into the lore of 40k two years ago and was looking to learn all the cool stuff I could. I think it's interesting that only Subject 11 is mentioned, if both primarch are in the vaults and some how still alive only mentioning one while ominous seems to be strange rather than mentioning both or mention that a valut marked subject 2 was breached and its contents emptied. So I'm interested in if it really is the 11th primarch. When it comes the Russ's hand as the Emperor's Executioner and not being sure if a Primarch can die. What if his memory was altered as well? That he knows he had a hand in dealing with the 11th but the outcome (be it grief for killing a brother, or just the event itself) was better left altered in his mind? Great video :)

[@snakething87]

Glad to hear the TTS actors in 40k again. I hope that series comes back one day and we get another KZbin 40k golden age. Still no forgiveness to games workshop.

[@Sorrowdusk]

Ahhh, a classic mystery

[@WiseguyThreeOne]

The manipulation of loyalty could also refer to the Sixth being deceived by Horus into destroying the Fifteenth.

[@Tokumastu1]

I've always theorized that the 2 missing Primarchs may have gone against the Emperor because of the direction he was taking humanity in. It's been made clear that the Emperor will tolerate people like Conrad Curze so long as they serve his goal. This is what lead to my theory about the 2nd and 11th Primarch's possible motives. Also gotta give it to Russ for being responsible for not 1 but 2 of his siblings leaving the Imperium.

[@alphariusomegon3965]

You have peaked my interest. So I like to believe there is some ultramarine out there with geneseed from the 2nd &11th legion or cawl got some primaries marines of the 2nd&11th in the freezer.

[@jochannon]

Remember, Cawl has the artifact with Primarch gene material (I don't remember the name) so he could have primaris from every heretic legion and the two lost.

[@jduluoz3131]

My personal pet theory for the two lost legions is as follows: the II or XI primarch decided to subject their legion to Necron biotransference, via the Ygma Monolith, to ensure that they would live long enough to always stand against the enemies of the Imperium and/or see the Emperor’s vision completed. The other Primarch fell to Chaos in an attempt to save his brother. Thoughts?

[@yoloswaggins2161]

I've missed these vids.

[@pervyturtle2673]

I would say the skulls on Malcador's throne are symbolic as, unless these primarchs are even smaller than the primarchs of the Alpha Legion, the skulls are far too small

[@TravellingCultivator]

This is truly a blessed dsy. Praise the Arch-Magos Remleiz.

[@dualityomk9854]

Haha... You called him Arch

[@TravellingCultivator]

@@dualityomk9854 Sharp eye, fellow 40k Scholar. Glad I made You laugh.

[@simonoconnor7759]

Here's my take on the lost Legions is that one suffered from genetic flaws that got out of hand and led to their destruction by the Space Wolves, while the other had elements, including the Primarch himself, who sided with the Rangdan (psychically vulnerable? Too open minded?), and those elements where also destroyed by the Wolves and/or Dark Angels dreadwing, after which, the remaining loyalists of the Legion were rolled into the Ultramarines/Imperial Fists. Subsequently, successor chapters have been formed from both, likely the Black Dragons, as well as many chapters that are supposedly UM successors, but are in fact loyalist elements of any of the original 20 Legions.

[@pocketwhatifs]

Interesting but I pose something a little difference. I the one with genetic flaws was orders to purge the mutations but refused. But was defeated and thoughts that weren't mutated got absorbed into other legions.