The Fall of Total War Discussion Heats Up

[@LegendofTotalWar]

Just to add a bit of context. I asked both Pixelated Apollo and Volound to not hold anything back and to challenge me about why I like Warhammer 3. It was confronting but it was what I asked them to do. There was no bad blood between us during the whole conversation and we walked away virtually shaking hands.

[@glhf22]

Cool, we don't care, there are better people you can collab with that are TW players and have better conversations about pros/cons about the games and everything in between. Stop giving clowns the platform.

[@nikodevil2000]

@LegendofTotalWar You stood your ground and defended the game you like against the other guys, so hats off to you, Legend. I think the way you go about sending a message to CA about what they should fix is way better than the blind hate Apollo and especially Volound are spreading.

[@random_lich7604]

That was not really a issue, the real issue was that they confronted you about why they disliked WH3, and instead of offering your own perspective, you simply agreed with them. You never shared why you enjoyed the game, which is why they kept asking why you liked it. On streams and in videos, you’ve given plenty of reasons why you enjoy WH3, but in this podcast, the only thing you mentioned was that breaking the game is fun, which isn’t exactly a positive take.

[@nofearofwater]

@@LegendofTotalWar People are taking it a bit too I don’t know how to say it personally or seriously, like getting offended, I found it entertaining content with Volound playing the aggressor, Apollo playing the guy who’s on the sides chucking the ideas and you playing the balanced straight man who puts it in orderly fashion. Good content. It wouldn’t be entertaining if everyone played the safe balanced role or the aggressive role people need to take that into account before taking it to heart

[@lolthelol]

Sorry but this is a horrible take that makes you look like an insincere person that actually tacitly agrees with 2 people who constantly call Warhammer games shit. Your tier videos explained it much better.

[@TheGodlessGamer]

Props to you legend for being well spoken and super respectful. Good for you for sticking to your opinions.

[@muppet3901]

Listening to Legend over the years going from mouthy Aussie with an attitude, to a mouthy Aussie who is much kinder with an attitude, brings a smile to my face.

[@DoctorCurse]

It’s always a shock to my system when I go back to super old videos. Sometimes I forget how bad mouthed he used to be

[@slipperygypsy4598]

Isn't he south african? From the accent i assumed he was a saffy not an aussie

[@cr0mag732]

From some of his words and pronunciations id say hes from Queensland

[@wolfie54321]

@@cr0mag732 For some reason I thought he was from Adelaide, I can't remember if he said it on stream once or if I just assumed that.

[@giokun100]

@@wolfie54321 Pretty sure he's based in Brissie

[@Bitt3rSteel]

"Its your duty as a youtuber" Dude, piss off. You do whatever the hell you want on your own channel. The audience will decide.

[@thegrayfox881]

He voted for the SNP mate, enough said 😂

[@ManCheat2]

the "u have a platformmmmm u must do this" take is so fkin annoying and dumb.

[@loowick4074]

"just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good". This is what we call cope. A game that no one plays is worse than a game everybody plays sorry. Especially since both are equally accessible.

[@trajanthegreat2928]

@@loowick4074 Definitely not. You're confusing success with quality. Particularly with single player games where your game is not affected by other people. There can be objective problems with games (bugs, glitches, terrible balance) that make a game bad. You can enjoy a game whilst acknowledging that it is poor quality (which Legend does).

[@loowick4074]

​@@trajanthegreat2928 yeah but with PA the intent was more that total warhammer 3 is a bad game irrelevant of player count or retention

[@camipco]

This was a nice reminder of a big reason I watch Legend. It's rare to find people who excel at a game who is also welcoming to people who are not good at the game. Who understand that their viewers are more casual players than them.

[@scrollexdestiny]

strategy games have often that problem goddamn trying to get into i gonna call it "casual competitive" is in some games hard you gonna get stomped and hated on bc you suck but you gonna barely find info and people to get good in it

[@Serocia]

@@scrollexdestiny Finding a good and humble person beat you in a strategy game and then give you tips on stuff is the best feeling ever. Especially if you're on a loss streak or something and the help is genuinely helpful, just like a fundamental thing you hadn't picked up on or something, and you start winning because of it.

[@weeborder69]

@@scrollexdestiny they ban anyone who doesn't have 100k+ viewers as a streamer so must of us are just quitting gaming. looks at blizzard. friends dont let friends play blizzard games.

[@KA-jm2cz]

Shitty casual gamer = best customer

[@maxschrbrpsi-pok]

LoTW here, and today we have a very special saving your disaster situation. We are facing 4 full stacks of Pixalated Apollo´s Knights and there is also Volound in the mix there, who is pretty strong and we don´t wanna get close and personal with him. As per usual, we have a load of crap to defend ourselves, we were caught in force march, so we are going to have to cheese our way ouy of here. Anyway, let´s jump right into it and let´s see what we can do. Now for real, the first 2 parts were brilliant, and I´m sure this one will be too. Thank you all 3 for making this happen!

[@rakum95]

This was too good😭

[@Serocia]

This trilogy was not that brilliant, almost nothing of importance was really said other than "CA bad, go back to the old games cuz they were good, new games are bad," Legend not really defending himself on why he disagreed outside of "I like to cheese and there's a lot of it" (which is fair, but apparently neither Apollo or Volound wanted to concede the point out of ignorance or bias, take your pick), like half the time it was them trying to goad Legend into saying "so it's shit then, admit it," or just being entirely apathetic to outright pretentious in Apollo's case about people making a career out of newer TW games. And we all know CA's bad. That's not new.

[@rogerwaters3776]

I gained zero new insight from this outside of Legend apparently either being too kind to push back on certain arguments or not liking Warhammer TW as much as one would assume (what with him placing it on top of his best TW games list). The fact that many youtubers are rather sad college dropouts (on account of them not having pursued anything close to what a truly virtuous career would have been for them) with very rudimentary knowledge of humanities, which they hold nonetheless in very high regard, isn't new on the other hand.

[@frost.0707]

Lord of the Warhammers

[@frost.0707]

​@@Serocia Dont think thats what happened. He does think warhammer is trash. He however enjoys them because he loves exploits. He never thought warhammer was a well made game series.

[@TtotheCizzel]

Volound is a bit of a egomaniac. What hes doing is virtuous? A youtubers job is to make content, the audience will decide the rest

[@spiffygonzales5160]

He's got an ego sure... but he's also right about Total War.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@spiffygonzales5160 he is often right about Total War, yes, and some of his analysis is excellent. But his personality is horribly toxic. I can't listen to him, even when he's right, because he's so desperately insufferable.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

KZbin is a website on which anyone can upload videos, its their own business what they try to achieve with it. I highly doubt Volound is in it for the money and making "content". See any of his videos.

[@Kataramenos_69]

Yeah he sounds like raging virgin sometimes

[@blackkray8351]

@@BittermanAndy yeah its just not total war hes weird about, he goes on political rambles on twitter a lot, seems like all round hes just a miserable fuck

[@kaushalshetty522]

Man, i'm watching part 2 right now, and only one person came into this conversation with an open mind.

[@thewolfpack5290]

Got the same impression.

[@brandonspivey5282]

It's not that he has exactly a more open mind than the other two. It's just that he has his opinion and he's still sticking to it and articulating it much better than volo and Apollo are. Volo and Apollo are mostly coming at it from the wrong angle, whereas Apollo just clearly does not like Warhammer volo is just one of those guys so blinded by nostalgia. He doesn't know any other way. He's the guy that will insist super. Mario Brothers on the NES was the peak of gaming despite Mario 64 being better in every single way. Objectively you know?

[@m0nkEz]

I haven't been following the drama much, but Apollo's response video made it pretty clear he wasn't trying to change anyone's mind. He doesn't like the new games and he was trying to speak to like-minded players. There's no reason for him to come to the discussion with an open mind because you're not going to convince him he actually likes a game that he simply doesn't like. For my part, I agree with him. I have simply accepted that CA isn't going to make games like the TW games I enjoyed in the past, and I'm not going to keep throwing money at them in the hope that they prove me wrong. And as for volound... well he's just a prick.

[@darkranger116]

Well after 8+ years of lies, disappointment and gaslighting, people are going to keep wondering why other people keep going back to the "abuser" after literal years of evidence that they dont care and wont change, you know? I havnt bought a total war game since warhammer 2, and why should I? This company takes every single opportunity to make their products cheaper and with less mechanical depth. At some point you become really curious as to why other people keep going back to the "restaurant that has a literal history of lying about whats on its menu"

[@brandonspivey5282]

@darkranger116 I mean that's just every game company now mate. Or every company with everything ever. This is what capitalism breeds. It doesn't breed innovation. It doesn't breed quality. It's this. It is companies who used to make great quality products cheapening themselves by either making their product a shadow of what it used to be or laying off workers just so they can show their shareholders look. The little green bar go up and not down

[@samgregory5690]

not everyone likes to play games on the hardest difficulty. most people play games on normal difficulty and enjoy what the game has to offer. not get frustrated or things by playing it on the hardest difficulty.

[@scrollexdestiny]

tbh on some games the game is at its best at the harder difficulties and vise verca but i get what you mean some people want to relax

[@imma5761]

Casual gamers dont wanna spend 45 minutes in 1 battle and end up losing it in the end, so thes either play at lower difficulty or send save file to legend Personally, i dont wanna spend 6 hours and be on turn 10 or 15

[@H0kram]

It's Legend himself during a live who answered me and unlocked my stubborned attitude about frustrating campaigns 😂 I was looking for tips but he saw through it, that I was getting stressed out by the game. And basically told me why do you keep pushing on frustrating campaigns in the first place, instead of launching a new one. I had no answer to that, my focus was somewhat making a perfect campaign, slowly turning into an angry micromanager as challenges ( and bullshit AI ) were getting bigger. Ironically I play at a higher difficulty than I used to now, but I take my losses and it's well balanced between challenges and rewards. And when I'm done, I'm done.

[@H41030v3rki110ny0u]

i play exclusively on the highest difficulties, i think it's fun even during its frustrations, but... MOST people don't play on high difficulty. If you play on Very Hard/Legendary you are in the OVERWHELMING minority of players. And tbh many games respect your time so much more playing on normal difficulty. Many games, their "hard" modes simply take longer, they aren't really more "difficult" ... Bethesda style stat-buffing difficulty.

[@1who4me]

It’s not a difficulty though. It’s just cheats the AI gets because they can’t program the AI better. And the combat those cheats you have to use games strats that don’t make sense in a normal game

[@CM-iz5ny]

That opening statement by Volound is a wild thing to say. Its really not that deep dude. Get off your high horse.

[@thekey1175]

youre schizo.

[@stephens021]

Volound is so toxic that even when he makes a good point he will then undercut that point by being the most self important whining little snot.

[@therealikitclaw8124]

He really is bitter that a game he doesn't like is successful.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

But is he right?

[@BittermanAndy]

Yeah, he's actually quite smart, just also completely insufferable.

[@loowick4074]

​@@TheSuperappelflapon some things yeah, but it's at the point where if you disagree with one thing he just sees you as a mortal enemy. Like i don't mind much the hp system if the numbers are correct. Like what's the difference if I have 2 wounds and 1 attack versus having 20 hp and 10 attack. It's still a 2 shot in both situations

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@loowick4074 the difference is between most units having one hit point and a chance of dying to an attack Vs having a number of hitpoints and knowing how many hits they can tank. One is better suited for more realistic games and the other is more suited for fantasy games.

[@flightsimulatorlad6664]

Only Volound would try to argue that TW Warhammer is mental poison and to try to compare Elder Scrolls bugs to Total War

[@wufang]

Dude sorry but I had to stop watching this. Volund is so annoying and won't stop bitching. Like you keep trying to push the conversation, but volund just keeps butting in and being constantly negative. Never heard that guy before but 5 minutes in and I can't stand him

[@TheRealCalPerr]

Mocking legend for even mentioning the campaign sealed the deal for me.

[@Anonie324]

@@wufang It's far worse than it seems. He is on his best behavior here, as mind-boggling as that seems.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@TheRealCalPerr right? Campaign is, like, literally half the game - more, in terms of time spent. The entire POINT of Total War is that it's a mix of turn-based campaign and real-time battles. Why would anyone want to exclude half the game from the conversation?

[@HolyG.23]

Same bro, that guy is terrible

[@Slie1988]

@@BittermanAndy Because Volound wants a battle game - not a TW game.

[@kyleshuler2929]

Lmao Volound saying he is virtuous for playing on the highest difficulty in a video game. I'm convinced that dude is just an elaborate troll at this point

[@crucibleclips]

"virtue: a good or *useful* quality of a thing : a commendable quality or trait : merit : : a capacity to act :" ....are you familiar with word concept fallacies by chance?

[@kyleshuler2929]

​​​@@crucibleclips and here, in to defend the other troll, is a pretentious argumentative person doing the same thing volound does. Well done. Look at the context he said it in. He wasn't implying he had the capacity to play on legendary. He was saying it was his duty as if to imply there was a moral association with doing so.

[@crucibleclips]

@@kyleshuler2929 Duty does not carry moral obligation. It can be an obligatory task (absent morals) as well as conduct that must be shown to superiors (as in the audience).... Since you once again applied a word concept fallacy, I will now assert you were unaware of it. Please learn the language.

[@kyleshuler2929]

@crucibleclips look up the definition of moral and see how it lists virtuous in the definition. A virtue is something that is an inherently good trait or ability. There is NOTHING inherently good about playing a video game in any capacity. I'm done being trolled now, have a nice day. Thank you for illustrating the exact kind of pretentious condescending people volound and his fans are though. Hopefully it keeps people away from his garbage channel.

[@paper9362]

@@crucibleclips You criticize him for using a word concept fallacy, and yet your entire argument against it is built upon etymological fallacies, and passive aggressive ad hominem. Just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't make it any less valid. Are you familiar with the fallacy fallacy by chance? Please learn the language.

[@ArgulTemplar]

Volound is such a frustrating character, came across his videos years ago and was quite happy to see someone holding CA accountable for their lack of quality control etc… but man by the 3rd video or so it was getting difficult to not trip on his massive ego. It took me a day to realise he doesn’t attempt to be objective, he just voices his opinion and decides it’s the correct one.

[@amirsalehabadi7243]

Elich once said something very accurate regarding Volund, he said the Man is forever stuck in 2012 he cannot let go or move on

[@Fastwinstondoom]

Some people do seem incapable of change(for the better). Their ego will not let them...and if that ego is not placated they'll more often than not go on a downward trajectory.

[@jones877]

Total war peaked with med2 so i dont see the problem

[@gHGhej]

​@jones877 In your opinion and that is fine. As diehard DOW fan, Legend can be burnt by the Horned Rat for even thinking positively about DOW 3 😂

[@misterpinkandyellow74]

@@jones877 medieval 1 is the peak. lol

[@ashina2146]

@@gHGhej It's our opinion but here's the thing to consider why. In Medieval 2 Design unlocking new superior units in the Campaign also buff the inferior unit that preceedes the superior unit, basically Higher Replenishment of actual Soldiers than Empire's throwing coins to replenish soldiers in a middle of nowhere or Shogun 2 and up where you can replenish the Super Veteran Elite Palace Guards in Villages. Armored Sergeants is Superior than Sergeant Spearmen but when you unlock Armored Sergeants you aren't forced to replaced Sergeant Spearmen as you cannot just recruit 6 Armored Sergeants on the go due to the Medieval 2 Recruitment Stocks System. Medieval 2 is literally the only Total War Game that has Roster Bloat but it's not shoving all 10 different Spearmen Unit where you choose which you will only recruit, but it's "I only have 3 units of Armored Sergeants and if anything happened to them I will have to use Spear Militias since the place that produces Armored Sergeants are quite far from the frontline" This is mostly in the view of someone who doesn't really like being forced to make an army of Elite units just to not be on the back end in late game since if the enemy lose their entire army of Elites they can just recruit them back without any repecussions.

[@HolyG.23]

Genuinely felt bad for LoTW watching this. You can tell he is on a different level to these guys, especially the scottish fella.

[@Leokaiser]

Made me embarrassed to share a nationality with that clown. Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland.

[@kyleshuler2929]

"Id rather get 50% of what i want than push for 100% or nothing." Well said. You cant fix problems that were created over the course of years overnight. It takes time and compromise.

[@thekey1175]

the compromise with a price hike is still a price hike the compromise with a bad game is a mid game.

[@RTB3550]

You shouldn't have to compromise. This is the problem with modern gaming. Don't ask questions. Just consume.

[@kyleshuler2929]

@RTB3550 lmao, shut up. They put blood DLC in the series over a decade ago and I bet you own every one of them.

[@RTB3550]

@@kyleshuler2929 that doesn't dispute my point at all. DLC is only a small fraction of it. My overall point is people making excuses and lowering the standard for subpar games and low effort developers. If you guys keep buying this shit, they will keep doing it

[@kyleshuler2929]

@RTB3550 youre in the minority. A large portion of the community enjoys warhammer. Thats whi you have to compromise withm

[@luc.juan333]

Volound is the kind of person who, regardless of them being right or wrong, have to be an insufferable asshole to everyone.

[@mgs85]

Oh, Volound is always right... He's only there to brow beat you into submission. This hasn't changed in 15 years so why anyone invites him to a discussion is beyond bizarre. You know exactly where he stands, because he's made an opinionated piece on it already, and he's just there to brow beat you into submission. He is not open minded about anything he already has the slightest opinion on. But every few years someone invites this troglodyte out of his cave and everyone remembers why they can't stand him in anything beyond small doses.

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

"Waah, he's such a meanie-pants!" ...Is all your argument boils down to.

[@ashina2146]

tbh he's the main reason for the reduced IQ of those who hated Newer Total War. His Cock Suckers are not only Dicks but also don't have any idea what they're talking about as all of their opinion stems from Volound alone, no critical thinking skills can be found in Volound's Cock Suckers. From calling "ALL" Total War Content Creator Shills to literally think old Total War is better because there's no +Stats Formations only for it to be debunked.

[@ashina2146]

@@redsimonyt It's easy to be brave behind a imaginary wall of manliness. He's just riding on the Superior Reynold Sanity Critique, but minus the actual way to improve, it's just "40 ArMouR? ThaT's RetArdEd" on an unit that have 10 Body armor and 30 Shield Armor. There's a difference between the bitterness of Medicine and the Bitterness of Dust Clumps.

[@Theanimeisforme]

​@@redsimonytthe hard truth being the truth that everyone and their mother has said. Ironically he has taken opinions from indiepride, his arch nemesis.

[@mr.rufasi2729]

I love how the discussion is pretty much legend saying “yeah all these mechanics suck and you’re right about this, but I still have fun” and when it comes to video games that’s the most important aspect. If it’s fun and entertaining and you enjoy spending time on it, it’s a good video game. I can’t really explain how I have fun with WH3, because there are so many stupid issues with it, but I still find myself having a blast with it

[@trippinturtle9088]

Why is Volound even here, he's not there to debate. He is only there to talk sh*t about warhammer and to make fun of it. I appreciate Apollo atleast wanting to understand but Velound is just a spiteful dude huffing nostalgia.

[@thekey1175]

so you admit that the past was a better time

[@trippinturtle9088]

@thekey1175 what? No lol. Warhammer 3 has it's flaws but it's better than a lot of their other titles.

[@thekey1175]

@@trippinturtle9088 what do you think nostalgic means?

[@mgs85]

Legend will never learn that no one wants to listen to this stubborn prick. Near 20 years on YT with multiple different games and no one can stand to listen to him for very long. Vast majority of his audience hate watches with him. There are people who will challenge you, and do so earnestly from an honest perspective. Volound is just there to brow beat and it hasn't changed in nearly two decades.

[@Slie1988]

@@thekey1175 a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations. - this isn't an admitting of it was "better times" lol you may want to learn what nostalgic means before calling someone out. We remember the past fondly - doesn't mean it was better lol. EX: "I was overcome with acute nostalgia for my days in college"

[@josepharmstrong6502]

This makes me respect Legend a lot. Being able to maintain that level of calm in a conversation with Volound is commendable.

[@HolyG.23]

100%

[@jfraser1903]

It's because he respects his opinion

[@williamchristy9463]

​@@jfraser1903But the dude is the opposite of respectable.

[@ivanvasiliyvich9745]

​@@williamchristy9463 the guy sucks, but his opinions with respect to total war are like 80% correct. Cannot stress the with respect to total war part.

[@williamchristy9463]

@@ivanvasiliyvich9745 I don't even really agree with that. He's a Shogun-2 glazer, which is a mid-at-best total war game. His arguments are overwhelmingly awfully made, seem to rest mostly on denying the qualities which the Warhammer games can be said to have while glazing the past games, and often ignore issues which the old games suffer from. I can accept to some level this is because the fantasy genre doesn't appeal to him, but he outright denies the strategic depth which Warhammer fantasy adds through its fantasy elements, which alongside the limitations placed by faction rosters makes it-- in my opinion-- probably the best overall total war game since Medieval 2.

[@ezbo1883]

I love watching Okoii's videos for example, not because he is a cheese master or has amazing battle tactics, it's basically hilarious and fun content. If the person playing is having fun, they can cheese a siege battle for 2 hours and i'd enjoy watching it. I've 3k hours in this game and have very little left to learn or get good at so to me the content needs to be fun and fun only, no other criteria needed.

[@AB-uq8yh]

I'm right there with you. Love stuff like Okoii's video's, Legends. For the most part I don't care about "standard" battles. I've done them for 1.1k hours in WH3 and 2.4k in WH2. Why would I want to watch those? I do watch MIlkandCookies and Turin for replays. They can be fun, but that's not really the same since its multiplayer. I think these two can't accept times have changed and the audience isn't the same and/or the wants of the viewers aren't the same. Its like Let's Plays - they aren't as relevant anymore and you will see diminishing returns on that content. Legend found or created the cheese niche in TWW and its spawned a lot of other content creators too. A final point - I went back and played Atilla recently and I was bored. I don't find the battles entertaining like I used too. Warhammer and it's unit variety has ruined me. I also don't see the supposed "depth" of the tactics in it. I don't think WH3 is that tactically deep, but I think there are some rose-tinted glasses being worn when looking back at them. The main draw is the historical settings that we all nerd out over. A modern Medieval or Shogun would be great and make them feel closer to the quality of WH3. I'm also a big proponent of a fantasy setting in these games where you have basically mythological units and heros like WH3. Have both, don't skimp on either but I would love for some pagan vs Christian vs Islam magic forces

[@BittermanAndy]

Right from the very start, Volound going straight in with "MY way is the RIGHT way and there IS NO other way" when Legend ever-so-gently challenges him on whether teaching people to play well should be the ONLY goal for Total War KZbinrs. He doesn't get any less toxic, does he? Not listening to any more than that, the man is an absolute child.

[@DasInf13]

Ya he does seem pretty rigid in his belief. He thinks there's only 5 ways to play the game. Easy, medium, hard, very hard and legendary.

[@Dayz3O6]

The irony is by protesting to not listen anymore, you are acting like a child. Throw away the ego and bias and listen to the conversation. Even your username is a hypocrite lol.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@Dayz3O6 no, I just don't waste time doing things I don't enjoy, because that would be a waste. But keep sucking off a complete stranger in your parasocial relationship with someone who doesn't know you and doesn't care about you.

[@Sercotani]

@@Dayz3O6 well, Volound certainly isn't presenting himself very well.

[@Monochromatic_Spider]

@@Dayz3O6 It's not childish to refrain from looking for gems in a garbage heap. There might be some but then again, there might not.

[@JamesPHewitt]

I just started playing Age of Wonders after your shoutout mate - it's a good call. Definitely worth a look if you feel Total War is stagnating a bit.

[@chrishart4356]

age of wonder 3 is my alltime favorite game and for some reason even coming back to age of wonder 4 i cant enjoy it for more than a couple hours

[@erykaldo2l270]

Same! I bought the game after Legends made a video on it, and im having a blast! Its my first Age of wonders game, and I already enjoy the turn based combat much more compared to TW real time combat

[@Dr.AvenVon]

@@chrishart4356 that is werid, AOW 4 is better in basicaly every single way

[@chrishart4356]

@ i dont like the provence aspect of it. I liked ploping down my base anywhere i wanted. I also liked my units didnt have a xp cap so taking low tier units that survived into lategame was my dealbreaker.

[@yak577]

I don't watch Volund or his content, but ten minutes in this video, all I hear is an underclassmen desperately trying to impress an upperclassmen. Most of the time, Volund either trying or baiting Legend into more extremist takes; while Legend is mostly apathic or generalist. Volund clearly admires Legend, his reach, his content, and seniority. but his vitriol for CA blinds him so much, it turns the conversation slightly combative. To the point where Legend has to play referee and remind him that they are outliers and their experiences with Total War are not the de-facto opinion.

[@Anonie324]

You have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes on Volound's antisocial behavior. He behaves inexcusably to people who disagree with him, unless they're Legend, honestly, because he just wants Legend to parrot him for a broader audience. He's gone on record, many times, saying that people that like TWW are genuinely and literally stupid.

[@arturg3333]

@@Anonie324and he is… right You people have ruined the franchise by paying for these crap games, overpriced dlcs and giving CA (a terrible company) a pass on mediocrity

[@pootisspencer5492]

@@arturg3333”you people” lmfao

[@arturg3333]

@@pootisspencer5492enjoy that masterpiece where gunners don’t even have reload animations and don’t require a line of sight to fire 😂

[@jacksmith3148]

​@@arturg3333 the cope has turned into seethe

[@loowick4074]

I used to watch volound but he got rather toxic and he mauled me in the comment section of one of his videos, I don't remember which one. Very angry fellow. You had a civil discussion with him? Guess he has gotten better? Funny thing is I agree with like 70% of what he says, but the 30% i disagree with him I disagree with him very hard.

[@BittermanAndy]

Yeah, Volound is the most toxic KZbinr I've ever seen. Can't stand the guy.

[@burtreynolds8030]

Yeah he’s got a very “my way of the highway” attitude when it comes to opinions on total war

[@loowick4074]

Watching the vid he's actually pleasant to listen too when he isn't smashing CA or someone into the ground repeatedly in a rant.

[@TtotheCizzel]

clearly very angry, its like he thinks a good modern total war game is a human rights issue

[@Anonie324]

He has not gotten better. I was in the same position as you. He saves his civility *only* for people he admires of higher social standing in his malformed worldview.

[@CrèmeTropBrûlée]

The most pathetic thing about Volound is that he spend his life spitting on games, and people enjoying them; that he doesnt play anymore. He even flame random people's replies on reddit and YT by sharing them in his subreddit and discord. I don't see the point of having him in here, he's the avatar of toxicity in video gaming. Whenever he speaks it's just to display his elitism and vulgarity in this podcast

[@Tomezilla514]

Exactly, he's become that meme with the 2 people playing and enjoying a video game that the 3rd person doesn't like as he watches and screams "QUIT HAVING FUN!"

[@Anonie324]

Volound is seriously a remarkably awful personality. Dude is mean, bitter, dismissive, intrusive, and his beliefs get worse, the more you learn. I subbed to him back in like 2012, because of how damn good he is at Shogun 2. Eventually, I couldn't take it anymore.

[@omidtabrizi-e2z]

@@CrèmeTropBrûlée buddy is trying to get u guys better games with more mechanics. I wish warhammer had all the features of med 2 and I play warhammer 3 and it’s very boring unless I play with friends it’s missing so many features i need to try and mod in he’s correct u guys just don’t like criticism on ur favorite game but the criticism isn’t there just to say warhammer is shit. He’s been saying the games have been bad since Rome 2 which is true AI is stupid the original founders left the game design keeps getting more and more simplified and aimed at selling u dlc

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@omidtabrizi-e2z this is truly a reddit-level take, absolutely braindead

[@omidtabrizi-e2z]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 lol okay buddy whatever helps u sleep at night

[@spaghettioso2799]

Damn Volound really believes that his way of making content is objectively correct and everyone else is just wrong

[@ZESTdabest]

A very biased person

[@jarkkovahamaa7272]

Insufferable.

[@GamerAccounts-s7s]

​@@ZESTdabestYou were one letter away from having an objectively bad opinion. 😂

[@ManCheat2]

Volound is annoying communist vegan, so is that a surprise?

[@mikebutler9332]

Which is bold considering the subscriber counts of the guys he's talking to compared to his

[@ethanmorris7115]

i wish volound would just let people speak.

[@paddya3304]

Guy is in love with the sound of his own voice

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@paddya3304too bad it’s almost impossible to understand wtf he’s trying to say

[@paddya3304]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 I'm Scottish so it's easy for me to understand. Don't worry, he's mostly talking pish, you're not missing much. 'In love with the sound of your own voice' has nothing to do with accent.. it's basically someone who loves talking but doesn't listen to other people. A narcissist in other words.

[@MarkyMcOliver]

I wish he would move on with his life and stop insisting on trying to convince people not to like warhammer

[@ГрафСорочанский-и4я]

Dude, watch the other parts. He almost doesn't speak in part 2.

[@sentinel6059]

Volound is one the most obsessively toxic content creators on youtube, period. I see no reason to give someone with that attitude any time of day.

[@Anonie324]

Hands down my least favorite thing Legend has done with his channel in the last 8 years has been any time he platforms Volound.

[@sentinel6059]

@@Anonie324 glad I'm not the only one who sees it that way!

[@melo7038]

@@Anonie324 Nah fuck that, he needs to be platformed, especially by Legend. They guys been waging war on the series for years and shitstirring. Legend talking to him sets out where everyone stands and forces Legend to consider where he sits. Volound attacks basically every WH youtuber except him for some reason and acts wierdly sychophantic. But having them come to blows at least makes the waters less muddied. I hope after this, we won't have such a dumb passive tolerance of Volound's nonsense.

[@GamerAccounts-s7s]

​@melo7038 I didn't even know the guy existed, let alone have so much lore damn.

[@Anonie324]

@@melo7038 Hmm. Decent point. Destiny platforming JonTron showed us all that the accusations of racism were actually massive understatements lol. Still, I'd rather it not happen more than a couple times, otherwise it's functionally a megaphone.

[@sentinel6059]

It's beyond me how someone like Volound can be so devoid of empathy that he cannot understand that there are people playing games for escapism and immersion. So he derives his fun from challenge. Good for him! Other people who place less emphasis on challenge and more on immersion have the right to be here too. I don't see any reason why we should treat the selfish bastard with any more regard than he gives to those he disagrees with.

[@Anonie324]

I've been following the guy for over 12 years now. He is emotionally crippled.

[@donpizzaplays8529]

Exactly, it baffles me how much Volound and Apollo hate TW Warhammer and its fanbase.

[@chrisjackson1215]

@@Anonie324 I mean, why follow him then?

[@Anonie324]

@@chrisjackson1215 I subbed to him back in 2012 because he is genuinely a god tier mastermind at Shogun 2. When I was 19, his edgy humor spoke more to me. His critiques of Rome II, and its horrible launch, also hit home, and prevented me from preorder disappointment. But his negativity only got worse, starting in 2014, and I finally unsubbed about 2 years ago when I couldn't take it anymore, though I'd been avoiding his videos for longer than that. When I posted my comment to that effect on the video that broke my spirit, his response was cruel, childish, shallow, dismissive, and wrote me off as a shill/mental defective who was too stupid to recognize that Warhammer was a stupid game that only stupid people could like. The only times he's come back up since then are when Legend, to my irritation, platforms him.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

​@@Anonie324I had an almost identical experience when I started calling him out for spreading anti-democratic, Pro-Kremlin propaganda on his second channel after the liberation of Bucha and documentation of Russian War Crimes.

[@punishedbutler3013]

Volound may have some points about CA and TW gaming experience but he's also a foul and nasty person in his videos, posts, and politics. Platforming and engaging this guy is a mistake. He is delusional and unconvinceable of anything opposing his beliefs. I appreciate Legend is interested in genuine conversation and is a good advocate for the series and especially its fans but he's getting taken for a ride here and won't get anything like a genuine conversation with someone like Volound.

[@Anonie324]

I couldn't agree more. Giving him any time is a categorical mistake. His opinions are functionally impossible to separate from his profoundly antisocial conduct.

[@stevadr]

THIS !! For someone whose full time job is hating CA and praying for their games demise, it'd bode well for legend to distance himself from such ultra Toxic people..

[@jakubs.5966]

I really dislike him, I wouldn't say it's a complete mistake, at least it will make an interesting discussion. Doomer and hater vibes with horrible choice in politics - he would be out of my social club and certainly not my friend. One thing is for sure, he isn't selling a persona, he is like that.

[@kitoharveywill5766]

"don't platform" Oh so people with different opinions don't deserve to be heard? Tell me you're a redditor without telling me you're a redditor.

[@punishedbutler3013]

@@kitoharveywill5766 not every opinion is worth respecting or listening to even if presented well, earnestly, or kindly. I don't think the German Nazis of the 30s-40s had opinions worth listening to and they shouldn't have been given any legitimacy or platform to spread their opinions. I think volound has some points but he's clouded by arrogance and seething hatred in his analysis and most of his opinions are heavily based on these feelings which compromise their value. I'm sorry if you think we should listen to lunacy and vitriol just because. That is incredibly stupid

[@BillyLndn]

Volound is the angry karen of total war community 😂

[@donkey9113]

underrated comment

[@jaywerner8415]

He is, But at the same time "He's right ya know."

[@leowei771]

@@jaywerner8415 It's also undercut by his behavior, and not all of what he said is correct.

[@Foul-TemperedRodent]

Ha-Ha what's worse a Karen or an angry Glaswegian Karen

[@ccr2135]

Legend, please don’t let them talk you into being a whiner. Your positive realist attitude is way more fun.

[@thekey1175]

"noo dont break with the cult youre one of the last unpaid creators for my slop"

[@SnakePlissy]

Lmaoo bro what is wrong with you ? legend can’t give a single coherent argument as to why warhammer is even good 😂 .. Not one loool just waffles endlessly can’t even answer a basic question.

[@strawberrylion548]

*Claiming to be a "critical thinker" doesn't give you the right to dismiss other people's opinions-it shows you're not a critical thinker.* Volound often acts like a philosopher, treating video games he dislikes as evidence of societal decline. It's similar to outdated arguments about newspapers replacing books-ignoring that people's interests have shifted while meaningful content still exists. He frequently mocks games and opinions he disagrees with, sometimes implying that enjoying certain games reflects poorly on a person's intelligence. For example, PixelatedApollo1's comment, "People are too stupid," reflects the dismissive tone Volound often echoes. At one point, Volound even compared disliking a game to harmful behaviours, saying, "They're banning smoking here." Hypocrisy: His antagonistic and dismissive behaviour contrasts sharply with his self-presentation as a calm, fair critic. Projection: Equating video games he dislikes to broader societal decline mirrors outdated arguments (e.g., newspapers vs. books). Double Standards: He wouldn't tolerate others treating him the way he treats others, showing a lack of self-awareness or fairness. Tone vs. Substance: His inflammatory tone weakens his credibility, even when some of his points could hold merit. He spends an hour in this video with others laughing, interrupting, and ridiculing others, only to summarise it all by saying, "I was just criticising." Rather than offering constructive feedback, he tears into opinions he doesn't like. If someone like Legend of Total War mocked him every time he spoke, he'd likely react poorly. Volound's behaviour is less about genuine criticism and more about framing his antagonistic actions as reasonable when called out. *Nothing makes me shake my head more than people quoting philosophy to appear well-read or deep thinkers, yet they fail to grasp other people's critical thoughts. It's as if they aren't critical thinkers but emotional and passionate ones who mistake intense emotion for intellectual depth.*

[@mcsmash4905]

ive always left a comment under one of volounds fans saying that them behaving they way they do is why nobody takes them seriously even when they are right

[@sulphuric_glue4468]

Thing is I think pixelated apollo was being hyperbolic saying that people are too stupid. His tone of voice, to me at least, came off like he was making a joke out of it. Volound seems to genuinely believe that only stupid people can like TWW.

[@mcsmash4905]

@@sulphuric_glue4468 judging by volounds overall behaviour he might actually think that , in one of his videos on something about how the same units act differently (ergo one is broken) i pointed out to him that he was playing on legendary difficulty to which he said that people with brain will play on highest difficulty , ergo im stupid because i dont play on legendary and then proceed to complain about how fucked the difficulty is or some shit

[@jondoe-qi3vo]

All this whole conversation turned into was Volond and PA saying TWW is shit say the game is shit Legend. It's really Pathetic

[@hubris7434]

They literally started calling WH3 porn, fast food and poison.

[@willek1335]

See the pinned comment. He literally asked them to do just that. People are getting mad in the comments without understanding why LOTW wanted that. Tiktok generation.

[@mgs85]

@@willek1335 Well, it was totally and utterly pointless to listen to. Legend argued why he likes the game very poorly, if at all, and they don't aren't interested in why it COULD be popular/good. If you want to be tested on your opinions do it on paper or something and then come into a discussion. And don't invite Volound.

[@berserker4940]

@@mgs85 Yeah I was waiting for Legend to actually give one legitimate reason why he likes warhammer TW on its own merit.

[@frost.0707]

​@@mgs85 Watch the second part

[@redbeard5939]

"objectively bad" "objectively worse" ... Someone needs to take an intro philosophy course or something

[@BittermanAndy]

That would require enough self-awareness to realise he doesn't already know everything.

[@thekey1175]

they all agreed on that

[@redbeard5939]

@@thekey1175 firstly, legend didn't really agree on that. Secondly, three people aren't the arbiters of objectivity.

[@redbeard5939]

@@BittermanAndy the ad hominum attack is a bit more than necessary. I was mostly just pointing out a bit of bad logic that undercuts his argument.

[@thekey1175]

@@redbeard5939 they are the only people in a room making them the arbiters. Same logic applies to law as well. Legend said if he was still a sales man and forced to sell you the game he would try and get off the phone ASAP. Then an hour later he says that CA cant make another good game stating the last one was not WH3. About an hour later after that he again reiterates that WH1& 2 are early access games for WH3. Its not even a connect the dots situation.

[@rusael333]

This is a video of 2 people trying to convince a guy that the thing he likes is bad and he shouldn't like it

[@hubris7434]

Yeah. It felt like Legend came to talk and they came to win their argument.

[@badrhetoric5637]

It is a cognitive dissonance for them to comprehend an intelligent and talented person enjoys the game, to them, only idiots like it.

[@hubris7434]

@@badrhetoric5637 The part where they started equating WH3 to fast food, porn and even "poison" was insanely insulting.

[@OtterMusician]

If you've watched the previous two, he agrees that it's bad. They're trying to understand why he likes it despite that.

[@mr.rufasi2729]

⁠@@OtterMusicianidk I don’t think you can really call a game bad if it provides you with hundreds or even thousands of hours of fun. I have a million complaints about WH3 but it’s still fun to me

[@keilanl1784]

Guys look, this guy Volound thinks Warhammer 3 is a crap game! See? Nobody cares.

[@HolyG.23]

100%

[@thekey1175]

if that were true why is what is currently happening happening

[@FujimoraPantsu2]

Shhhhh Nedry! You're gonna blow Dobbsons cover!

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

You cared enough to reply.

[@sandrothenecromancer6810]

"Beastman or Khorne that can move every turn is not strategic! They should be empire building like every other faction" Do they know anything about how warhammer factions might be a little different than human factions?

[@Clyde92]

I imagine Volund sitting there with his arms crossed saying “I know you are but what am I?” Y’all spent half this pod talking past each other and not really listening to each other.

[@heinrichvonbaden8824]

Hey Legend, even though I'm personally not a fan of TW Warhammer (I enjoy 40k more) and don't like many of the newer titles as well but you were by far the only normal voice in this discussion, well done New Legend is best Legend

[@nazwus]

If Volound's ego took physical form, its mass and size would far exceed that of the entire Earth... I understand his dislike for CA, but he doesn't stop there and treats virtually the entire community of players of newer Total War games with hatred and contempt.

[@giokun100]

First, people who play a game are not a community. Second, r/totalwar is not a community. Third, newer Total War gamers are being extorted with lesser products and deserve better than toxic positivity. Fourth, if people were as critical to the government as they are with Volound, we'd be having flying cars by now.

[@DoubtkeyApartments]

Just had to pop in with my own reactions listening to him: First five minutes: Jesus man, let Legend talk... and why are you going on about righteousness so much? And do you know what subjective means?? Nearing the end, after I read a comment about Apollo and Vol's channels being dead: What do you MEAN he has a Google Doc like a fucking CV with all the stuff he's 'done'?

[@stormy6029]

​@@giokun100wrong on all accounts. I assume you're a fanboy of his, in which case these comments must really sting 😂

[@Ulfberht59]

Who are you to say what is and is not a community? Also I dont think that warhammer dlc are inferior product to older titles. Your last point is true tho haha

[@paper9362]

@@giokun100 Community is an incredibly broad term, you could define damn near any holders of a specific trait or interest as a community let alone a games playerbase, or a subreddit. Forums are one of the classic examples of an online community. Also baseless criticism doesn't push innovation, it usually does the opposite. Directed specific criticism is helpful, but if you think his form of criticism would lead us to flying cars then I'd like to point to the new US elect and cabinet which was largely created out of blunt unrefined criticism.

[@fico621]

I love how on one side you have LoTW trying to have a conversation about a Total War/CA and the other side just Volound and PixelatedApollo repeating over and over in 3 separate videos how his preferred TW game at the moment is bad.

[@Orendiz]

Becouse it is bad, he just likes it despite it being so.

[@SnakePlissy]

I love how legend gives zero reason as to why he likes it outside how easy it is to exploit & you can’t fathom their stance 😅

[@xthundernoobx]

I found it frustrating how it felt like almost a whole half of this discussion was these two trying to get you to say total Warhammer is utter rubbish. Wasn’t very interesting, and I actually really grew to dislike the attitudes of the other two speakers. That volound guy in particular comes off as insufferable, holier than thou, and not the kind of person I ever want representing the total war community.

[@johnlocke4715]

The entire thing was frustrating to me from all sides. Feel as though PA and V weren’t asking deep enough questions and LotW was failing to explain the appeal of the game beyond him wanting to break games.

[@superpandabee9177]

I've always found PA overly dramatic and annoying and the poking and prodding at the end of pt 2 just pushed it to 11

[@jamesgilhooly7488]

Or could it be that you felt personally attacked so you didn’t listen to the content and just heard the attitudes.

[@Waakala]

the crucial thing about warhammer is how you can just look at one faction and know what it's about, and get the desire to play it. They have have more personality and character(and characters) than any faction CA could develop. It's so much more approachable. They should accept that warhammer's hook its second to none, and stop being so defensive about it

[@jamesgilhooly7488]

@@Waakala yeah but it’s just eye candy like skins in fortnight, functionally it’s totally broken which is why everyone skips battles

[@JunaidKhan-pq8ji]

Total War hasn't fallen. Historical Total War is dead. Fantasy Total War is doing well.

[@AndrewCooper-oe3up]

A lot of the disagreement just seems to be because Legend is a much more open minded kind of person and is better at seeing things from other people's points of view

[@lelgazelle]

Why Volund? People like PixelatedApollo already exist. Volund does everything PixelatedApollo already does, only much worse. Volund is a professional Karen. Whining as a lifestyle. The kind to go on a tirade because his own balls are bothering him.

[@mitchellbrough1615]

What do you expect he's a Scot😂

[@Medik_0001]

😂😂😂

[@voyager9959]

​@@mitchellbrough1615 Basically subhuman

[@mitchellbrough1615]

@voyager9959 I know your just joking but don't know if I'd go that far. 😂 They just love to whine and complain.

[@MrSpartanspud]

At least we still have a country unlike Londonistan. B)

[@MrWiggles00706]

This video just made me hate Volound more and appreciate you more.

[@mgs85]

Every few years we gotta drag out Volound to remind everyone that you can't stand him...

[@unissay3530]

This volound guy, is he even a human person, his entire life is about hating a gaming company..... remove that from him, this guy is an empty shell deluded of reason. I can understand covering large amounts of drama but i dont understand how some popular figures can ever only use their visiblity and skill to create terrible content that just shows off how miserable they are

[@Slie1988]

One can't exist without the other - its pretty sad really. His existence and reason for content is mainly off the back of his moaning of CA's and TWs perceived failures. I've checked out his other "content" and its pretty shit.

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

You must be new to gaming as a whole.

[@unissay3530]

@BloodwyrmWildheart youre trying to say that what i described is normal?

[@DoctorCurse]

Volound has been in the salty stage of grief for 10+ years

[@Landonias93]

lol ever since Rome 2 hes been crying. We all hated Rome 2 bro. With mods now its actually decent. He is just incapable of accepting that the new games can be good at all. They clearly dont even try bc I have had hundreds of fun battles in Warhammer where traditional tactics matter. Its a good game.

[@shubhabrataray1313]

​@@Landonias93This. Right. Here. Among the mountains of shit that warhammer has, traditional tactics still matter. "bUt lEgEnD, wHy UsE tRaD tAcTiCs WhEn YoU cAn UsE mAgIc" Why make an entire army of knights in medieval 2 and conquer the entire map? The entire problem with the new vs old games comes down to this. Many people on the old side are not willing to give *any* leeway to the new games.

[@meowmeow9326]

volound has such a hate for the fantasy side of total war and is so jaded that he would never be able to admit that there is anything good about total warhammer. his biases make him kinda dumb on the topic. hes hated by a lot of the community for valid reasons. this doesnt make him entirely wrong, but his viewpoints are definitely skewed in the wrong directions

[@nikallew50]

But what realy is good about it? Dont get me wrong all Tw Games are flawed and some more then the other. I Love Warhammer since u played Shadow of the hornet Rat in ps1. One of my Most played mods Is call of warhammer for medieval 2. I bought tww 1+2 super cheap and barely forcef myself to get 50 hours in the clock It Looks good, so i would give you that Point, but everything else is ok at best. Dlc infested and overpriced as fuck. You dont even get full faction rosters for the Main Game factions without buying several dlcs. Siegebattles are such a letdown. A.i ist dumb and Cheats way too much in vh. The normal Battles are fast and dont feel meaty and impactful. Recruiting and town building are also underwhelming and super simple. Maybe i Just cant connect with the newer tw Games. Different devs and such . And as a wh Fan i can Understand why people Play tww, there ist realy much Out there. But i Stick with the medieval 2 mods. 30 factions without spending 300 bucks.

[@unfairlive2]

@@nikallew50 I think the funnest part of fantasy is creating wacky armies. Stick in some giants or trolls, what about a gryphon knight? Hey that mage lord is very cool to let's blast some spells. So the spectacle of the thing I guess, I play shogun 2 on the side too, but if I want to set up a cool spectacle fantasy has shogun beat and it's sadly not even close.

[@brianngo8172]

@@nikallew50 I like being able to play all these factions with lots of variety in roster and heroes and magic. I like that most LLs have unique campaign mechanics that mean I can have a different experience when I play them that isn't just a different starting position. I like that stuff looks really polished, and it feels very cool to me as a WHF fan to be able to go all over the map and then fight there. To me, I found late campaign town building extremely tedious in the older titles, when you managed to get an empire it felt like you micro-managed towns more than actually battling. I did a lot of this in Call of Warhammer/BOTET before TWW came out so I know what you mean there too. Also I bought most of the DLC on sale for cheap, and over a long period of time so the price hasn't bothered me since I've played WH2-3 more than any other game I have. Don't get me wrong, I played total war from Rome back in the day too. There are good and bad things in the old and new total war, but for TWW I find it hard to really whine about because I enjoy it a lot.

[@meowmeow9326]

@@nikallew50 firstly, youre not wrong about whats bad about it and dlc prices being nearly double the price that i would say is a good balance... but... this is a big game with a lot of attributes so i will state some things i find good about the game as you asked, tho i cant be bothered to try and list every little thing i find good about the game because that would be more time consuming than im willing to put into this comment the game has 24 factions and 100+ lords to choose from that can fundamentally change how you play that faction on the campaign. each faction has at least 20 different units with some having like 40 and thats not including warriors/daemons of chaos which is 4 different factions splattered into one who have like 80 units. its common to find units that are just straight upgrades to others, and many can be only that, and basically are reskins of other units, but i find that completely acceptable as its realistic and adds depth to the rpg side of the game (units being straight upgrades or is essentially the same unit but with different weapons to serve a slightly different function of your army). that is so much more diversity than any other game i can think of that its bordering on absurd, and theyre going to add even more. yes, of course, again, many units, most even, are reskins of other units between all rosters, BUT thats so much more the case of historical games and way more diversity than any of the others offer. why would i want to play a game where its human faction vs all other human factions, and the diversity is spear unit, sword unit, archer unit, and cav unit, chariot unit, and artillery, but all look like the same humans with different clothes and stats when i can play warhammer that also adds flying units, monstrous units, single entity monsters, a whole magic system with like 30 different lores of magic, and in addition to that diversifies the reskins of the roster that you have giant rat men with nukes and machine guns, aztecan lizardmen that ride dinosaurs, undead, elves, dwarfs, orcs and goblins, ogres, giants etc AND makes them look great and realistic (watch a historian rate the armor and weapons of this game compared to real life, they did a terrific job on that front). THEN they somehow take these 24 factions with like a thousand different units and 100+ lords, and somehow makes it more balanced in multiplayer than games with 2-4 factions and like 30 units total; its kind of an insane achievement. in addition to that, the warhammer fantasy lore is fantastic. this adds to the game specifically in terms of how factions and lords and units are balanced, and abilities they get, in addition to how the campaign looks feels and functions in some pretty clever ways. the cool factor is through the roof when all is said and done between unit, faction, and campaign map design and lore. the game somehow takes all of this in, and lets you have battles with thousands of units on said battlefield, yet somehow still doesnt have ps1 graphics, and terrible animations and instead does amazingly well on both fronts. some animations are good enough to pass in games where you control only one unit. its not perfect and you can easily find units butting heads with other units hitboxes in janky ways, but its better than i would expect to be possible had i not known this game existed. the game is physicalized so well also. its not perfect and even sometimes janky on this front again, but it routinely amazes me how organic some parts of the battles function like cavalry movement and charges, doubly so if you consider the scope of the battles. its something id expect from a game where you yourself have access to a single unit with like 30 units total in combat once again. usually in an rts game or grand campaign game, there will be factions i gravitate twards and stick to those, ill usually like 1-3 factions out of the 10 it has in a bigger game like this, (or 1 in the 3 or 4 in a smaller roster) but instead there is 2 factions i DONT like, and all the others i genuinely enjoy (with i think 3 factions i havent tried yet but eventually will), which is another feat i personally dont ever really see, tho some of the factions i like that do need some updating on specific things like lizardmens geomantic web, and the factions i dont like are just personal taste.

[@bofad6074]

@@nikallew50 Theres a lot good about warhammer actually, the pricing is lame but Its why theres so much content. Just buy the dlcs on sale or a key reseller

[@captaingerg8155]

Part of the reason I keep coming back to you Legend is your ability to take other perspectives, to at least try to see other sides of arguments, and to admit when you’re wrong. I don’t know either of these two, but trying to have a conversation with them seems exhausting. They seem to confuse rampant criticality with actual criticism in this video. Like undergrads who are just learning how to deconstruct ideas for the first time. “Whoa, guys, what if this thing we thought was good, actually wasn’t?”. There’s a fine line between “this thing is bad and you should hate it as much as me” and “I don’t like this thing”. You do a good job of walking that line and trying to find out what people other than yourself think. Keep doing that.

[@sinh7765]

Man arguing with volound sounds so exhausting. He will twist it and twist it and twist it until you finally agree with his opinion it seems like.

[@Biervampir92]

Volound is a hack, please don't feature him anymore, your viewers will thank you

[@Slie1988]

Fact.

[@AB-uq8yh]

I don’t really know the guy, but his performance here and these comments are brutal. Not doing his side of the community any favors.

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

You're just making the subreddit look even worse. Lol. So obsessive over one guy.

[@snowi9585]

Man volound likes interrupting people. Like I'm all for a civil debate but this guy is aggressively civil.

[@Anonie324]

@@snowi9585 It gets far worse. This, shockingly, is his best behavior.

[@Odysseus_27]

To me it's clear that the fantasy aspect, in particular the incredibly popular WARHAMMER side of the game, is enough to carry many aspects that were arguably done better in other Total War games. Yet the appeal of the fantasy was not mentioned at all in this discussion.

[@strangestecho5088]

Legend spoke briefly about the fantasy aspects making battles interesting for him, despite the weak infantry mechanics and other glaring issues, but they immediately dismiss it as being a gimmick. Trying to have a productive conversation with them is largely pointless, as they're absolutely married to their bias.

[@joeytoofly5139]

@@strangestecho5088 The weak infantry is only on higher battle difficulties i dont think the games are balanced around legendary. I like to do very hard campaigns and normal battle if im going for immersive armies. if i just want a challenge i go legendary and cheese

[@joeytoofly5139]

What about the amazing musical scores and the unit variations? Or the campaign mechanics and tech tries. Alot of factions have some unique campaign mechanics that are pretty interesting. Artistically and graphically the games are beautiful too. However some of the animations look weird and i definitely prefer a shogun 2 style duel animation than random swinging swords. The magic system is cool af the hero abilities are new to the warhammer games and really interesting way of spicing up the battlefields and playing differently. The games arent shit except maybe the first warhammer i know because i had to buy that for some factions in the 2nd. First game was too barebones however the 2nd ive clocked in 1.3k hours and is one of my favorites

[@strangestecho5088]

@@joeytoofly5139 I meant the "weak" battle mechanics. They don't like the battles because many human regiment tactics aren't nearly as effective in WH3 as they were in historical. They don't like units fighting to the death, etc.

[@brandonspivey5282]

And the fantasy is the main appeal of Warhammer. Sure, the battles and formations and tactical decision making are nowhere near the same because no fancy Pike wall is going to survive in a game where a wizard can summon a giant foot and stomp on you. Or where a phoenix can fly overhead and drop magical napalm on top of your pretty little lined up pikes.

[@maximal99334]

Not to be mean but this whole discussion felt kinda pointless to me. Both Volound and Pixelated Apollo had their mind made up with no willingness to actually engage in a genuine discussion about the pros and cons of Warhammer and Legend struggled to convey any of the many appeals of Warhammer to be honest.

[@1who4me]

That’s Zoomers for you

[@loowick4074]

​@@1who4methese guys are old men lmao

[@MrSpartanspud]

Which one if these three people are zoomers?

[@BACON-nf2rr]

I think Legend didnt mention anything specific about warhammer because he already knows what the reaction will be. Kinda pointless discussion w these 2 anyways.

[@MrSpartanspud]

I agree he seemed to not say anything, possibly for the reason you stated. So why waste the energy on it? Apollo barely sounds interested in the conversation and Volund won't let anyone else talk.

[@mz9514]

Volound is so hard to listen to without being angry at him. He seems way too egoistical and selfish, I have no idea how did he make it this long. And I am not even talking about things they said, I genuinely had hard time listening to him when his time came, and not to mention, he cuts people so often, I have no idea how people do not lose respect for someone like him instantly.

[@rupert1126]

The guys passionate about total war, and he’s angry about the simplification of it. I mean, are you passionate about anything? Or are you an empty husk? I have no respect for a lot of total war fans because they’ve let it fall into such disarray, a lot of you are just in the consume product, and then getting excited for next product.

[@willek1335]

You shouldn't let other people have the power to instantly change how you behave. If I get triggered by a type of people, that's literally a me-problem. It will affect me internally, not them. I should be able to treat other people with respect, regardless, because that engenders people around to do the same. Think about it. What would it take for you to become Volund? What path would you have to take, to end up seemingly egoistical and selfish? As you go down that path, would it be preferable to be inspired by LoTW's presence or someone who instantly treat you with disrespect?

[@user-ez9ng2rw9c]

​​@@rupert1126How is warhammer 3 simplified? I really don't understand how pure historical fans think warhammer 3 is simplified but think Shogun 2, Rome 2, Med 2, Attilla aren't. It has more convenient UI, yes. But what's the simplification lacking in the game from previous titles. The community has been great about keeping CA honest. They released shitty dlc which no one bought and led to serious internal problems, which led directly to a more open structure, better DLC and a significant improvement to both the current historical title and the warhammer title. Hardcore historical fans like you are ao upset with the very existence of warhammer and change as a whole you will not even enjoy stuff like Pharoah Dynasties, one of the best games they've ever made overall, with some of the most complex campaign mechanics and some very interesting ideas all around.

[@rupert1126]

@ Volound does a good job explaining it in his videos, but it’s not a tactics based game, it’s a units based game. In the older titles moral mattered, and you could win battles by only killing 10-20% of the enemy units by using hammer and anvil, flanking, and actual fighting maneuvers. Now it’s just line up, blast the crap out of each other, and the strongest troop types win. Rome 2 is when the shit really started. The DLC stuff was a great start, I’m just a little pissed it got to this point, and frankly CAs done the groveling and apologies before, and they always go back to their ways. I think the campaign stuff they’ve done since Rome 2 has been good(although I don’t like how they hard lock big cities/capitols, especially in Rome 2) however if I wanted to play just a campaign map, I’d download a paradox game. Battles is what makes TW different, and in that realm they’ve failed. Also I want to point out that, I think the stuff they do WH could stay in WH and it would be fine, because of the fantasy elements, and the op lords/magic/super units, but they keep trying to reskin it for a historical setting, and it just doesn’t work, because fantasy units don’t fight like a realistic or even semi realistic unit.

[@rinserofwinds]

@@rupert1126 morale still matters and you can still use hammer and anvil, flanking and acutal fighting maneuvers effectively. combat is fun, because you have that unit variety creating more different challenges. you just have much higher range in power levels of units. don't like that? don't use it. this is a sandbox game and in total war games you have always been able to cheese the crap out of them. just make your own challenge. I am sorry wh killed historic total war, but it does not make wh a bad game. there is also no comparable title letting you fight it out with huge fantasy armies. no arguing with scummy CA behavior, though.

[@shadowinversion]

'Warhammer is objectively bad' my god, only children use that. If something is objectively bad then *nobody* would play it. Anthem is a good example of something ObJecTiVeLy bad, but even that had some players.

[@nikimaster115]

You can like objectively bad things. My Summer Car for example. It looks worse than a ps1 game and is buggy and finicky. Many gameplay feature were deliberately designed and implemented to be as annoying, tedious and inconvenient as possible. And yet I and many others love it dearly.

[@lewishorsman2219]

Volound was constantly trying to manipulate Legend into being degrading to the overall playerbase. So toxic it’s unreal. He is the walking example of “your message may be correct but if you’re going to be shouting it at me, I don’t wanna know” These are games! Games ffs! Go outside!

[@pvinvictus]

Not a good watch. I kind of expected an actual discussion on the things that worked and what didn't and that isn't what was here. Take a shot every time 2 schoolgirls chuckle when something negative is said about CA, I'll see you in the ICU. Do this again, but with adults.

[@masakala4739]

Holy I just watched all three parts and don´t let those two gaslight you into not liking something you do. Also props for being well spoken and trying to show stuff in a different light. Overall my respect for you has risen drasticly.

[@CupcakeConjuror]

I don't know who Volund person is, but he was kinda making this video unwatchable for me.

[@Anonie324]

It gets so much worse than you saw here. Genuinely awful personality.

[@thekey1175]

@@Anonie324 hes a socialist scott. what do you expect?

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

Don't lie. You come from the subreddit.

[@CupcakeConjuror]

@@BloodwyrmWildheart I wasn't actually aware Legend had a subreddit X'D I am Just subscribed to him and saw he had a new video.

[@siluda9255]

@@Anonie324 nah you guys just hate him because reddit designated him as the current bad guy

[@tokatokatoka0880]

Volound often carries so many good points, but his arrogance takes so much away from them.

[@andrewbattleship2420]

Having watched three parts consecutively, this is such a bizarre experience! I lack the patience and moderation Legend displayed in this video, so I’ll express this in following way: the whole podcast felt like interrogation by two corrupt investigators trying to shift blame on some random person by finding slip ups in their testimony. The whole premise of “trying to understand why you like warhammer” appeared to be genuinely intellectually dishonest. All they did is voice some criticism, which Legend generally addressed and acknowledged and then tried to latch to every suitable word in order to twist it for the benefit of their narrative. I fail to see the point people bringing that Legend didn’t use enough vitriol in explaining his position. He stated right out of the gate that the opposite side is possessed with firm preconceived notions that he wouldn’t be able to dispel. Which proved to be correct by opponents’ sophistic approach. To be frank, I have no horse in this race, I would like the return of old style Total War, since shogun 2 is actually my favourite, but I also see the merit in Fantasy TW, even though it’s not my cup of tea.

[@Kendro23]

"Warhammer is a bad game, and if you don't see that, you're addicted!!!!!!!!!" *sigh*

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

Replace "Warhammer" with "McDonalds" or "cigarettes" and you'll begin to understand.

[@Kendro23]

@@BloodwyrmWildheart No. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make you an addict. Besides, who are Volound and PA to decide that a game is objectively bad. So bad, in fact, that anyone who plays it and doesn't recognize it is an addict.

[@stefan1360]

​@@BloodwyrmWildheartLowest IQ comparison you could make but I bet you felt really proud thinking you said something really deep. Liking a game is the same as a drug addiction, lol lmao even

[@guillemmoreno5522]

Volound: "What I'm doing is virtuous." Also Volound: "I don't care about attention or criticism." Bruh, your entire existence revolves around preaching to a nearly dead choir.

[@mcsmash4905]

virtuous???

[@crimsonmadness8735]

I have to say listening to this is painful, you're being civil and trying to discuss stuff while the other two are trying to interrogate you. And before anyone starts defending apollo and Volund, I used to watch both back in the day, and got simply bored. I used to play medieval 2 and Rome 1, those were my first games, yet I also enjoy TWW, and trying to throw mud at me because I like playing a game in a setting I like is not very nice.

[@Kholdaimon]

Legend, your interlocutors are not honest actors, they are never open to other people's opinions and just want you to say they are right... They aren't worth your time... They also know or understand nothing about the world in general, based on their opinions of what a gaming streamer needs to be or their opinion of "corn"...

[@harris4723]

I used to really like volund, this was before the warhammer era. But i think as alot of people have pointed out he just has nothing good to say about anything. You can only really stand to hear someone complain so much. Does he have a point? Yes but hes been saying them for nearly 10 years and hasnt advocated or enjoyed anything else. Hes just so negative in general

[@ilyashalygin]

Honestly this whole conversation feels like PA and Volound bullying Legend into saying that Warhammer is a bad game. Or maybe I'm just overthinking

[@GamerAccounts-s7s]

Feels that way ngl, which is a shame since I kinda found that a bit funny in part 1, but it got a bit old in part 2, and in part 3 it got a bit annoying. I played Warhammer and didn't like it mainly because of the battles (magic and flying units just don't appeal to me, at least the way its done in Warhammer), but its not really an objectively bad game. Its just that its currently the money maker of a really greedy company as of now.

[@KitchouaTembo]

You're not! It's clear that they don't care about his opinion and had no intention of considering it.

[@WardenGOW]

You are overthinking.

[@chasesiersema2466]

No, you're 100% right. Legend is actually trying to have a meaningful conversation and offering *constant* olive branches and they keep dragging the convo back to "Just say it's shit, legend".

[@ZheinPasRoux]

It's exactly that. They don't care shit about what he's saying, they just want to wank on Med 2 and him saying warhammer is bad. They kept repeating for 3+ hours "Total war is dead!!§§!! Nothing is as good as Shogun one ! blabla, paradox duh say warhammer is bad !". It's funny for the first half hour, not 4 full hours when you're trying to have a conversation.

[@RedaniaKnight-Elect]

I feel like getting Volund on was a detriment, since he done nothing but interrupt and try to force his opinion which could summarized as "TW is shit now". He can think whatever he wants, it is just not a stance worth 3 hours of discussion.

[@MidnightBlackandVictoria]

The next DLC will prove its FAR from fallen. I know of alot of people waiting anxiously for it. Just wondering, like me, wth they are taking so damned long...... And that Volaound guy.....Wow, man....He needs to come down out of those clouds and take a reality check on that ego of his....Self important people are so cringy to listen to.....

[@richardgaldos6901]

I have to admit, the other 2 people really started to piss me off as the time went on. There is nothing wrong with someone no liking something. But to say things like "the game is objectively bad" and try to get you admit it pissed me off because it is not "objectively" subjectively yes but objectively no. I know for a fact that Volound has said things like Warhammer is bad because it is missing 'x feature' and I think "fuck that, I hope that feature never returns, that would make the game so much worse" because I played with that feature in other Total War games and I hated it.

[@thekey1175]

all three agreed it was objectively bad

[@richardgaldos6901]

@@thekey1175 You dont know what objectively means. And no LoTW did not agree it was objectively bad. Subjectively he agreed. He agreed it wasnt great. At one point they literally started saying "say what it good about the game without mentioning the campaign." With that statement alone their entire argument falls about. They are not being objective they are being subjective. They are putting limits and saying "we only care about certain aspects and if those aspects arnt great the game is bad" Which is fine, nothing wrong with that. But that also means you arnt being objective, you are being subjective. At one point they were talking about playing on the hardest difficulty. This discussion falls about there because anyone who doesnt play on the hardest of even medium difficutly doesnt care about their points. Again objectively their points are not valid. Subjectively their points are.

[@joeytoofly5139]

You could definitely argue certain aspects of the newer titles are objectively bad compared to previous ones. Theres no dynamic weather in warhammer or destructible environments, theres no visual armor upgrades, they dumbed down population growth. Crossbows dont sound like crossbows. Infantry and cavalry are garbage in newer titles, BUT there are objectively good things about the game too like the tech trees and the campaign mechanics the art and soundtracks are fantastic. The narrative behind the games is far better. I find myself more vested in a single legendary lord rather than a whole faction of say france or england or rome. Hero mechanics and items are cool af in the newer titles. To say they are shit games is just a bold faced lie but they should be better. They are stripping important features away almost every game. naval battles and avatar conquest are gone, and they really dont care about the multiplayer aspect like they used too. I used to love going against people online but now you cant even type in the chat anymore i need to get on discord to talk to friends im versing and thats ridiculous

[@richardgaldos6901]

@@joeytoofly5139 Exactly, there are problems with the game, it is lesser than some of the other Total War games. But to straight up say "the game is objectively bad" is just false.

[@helenline1790]

​@@richardgaldos6901 agreed. It's completely false.

[@mister00z84]

"Legend of empty spine here and today we allow two youtubers with less views combine to walk over me and insult my audience"

[@johnlocke4715]

“Why do you like the game?” “Well I like breaking things.” “But WHY do you like it beyond that, why do you have 10000+ hours combined?” “Well in factorio, I made 2.4 billion copper plates” Like .. ugh.. they just treated him and his audience like actual idiots while he stroked his ego.

[@TheRingoism]

@@johnlocke4715 Tbf Warhammer fans are idiots

[@sohas111]

Pixalated Apollo and Volound just mad because their youtube channels are basically dead and they blaming warhammer, CA and "stupid" players who enjoin playing it its just pathetic behavior from fail content creator

[@GamerAccounts-s7s]

Saying Pixel's channel is dead is cap tho.

[@sohas111]

​@@GamerAccounts-s7s nah dude, I think his channel is cooked he has over 900k subscribers and he barely hit 20k views on videos often don't even get 10k and he use to get over 100k on every video

[@random_lich7604]

@@sohas111 such a shame, really liked his videos but this podcast is the reason I don't watch him anymore

[@thekey1175]

"Saar sarr u din du"

[@adamm2091]

This is a child's take.

[@CM-iz5ny]

12:30 he basically said without using half of the game tell me what they did better? What kind of nonsensical restriction is that?

[@FilipMoncrief]

have you watched all three videos? Your comment sounds incredibly stupid if so. Battles are the alpha omega of total war. If the battles suck, there is no reason to play TW over paradox. They all agreed on that. And if the battles not only don’t get better across your 3 full priced games, but even get worse (which I agree with after 2K hours across WH123), you have a big problem.

[@stefan1360]

No they aren't, don't expect much though from someone who comes in glazing 2 dolts

[@darafi]

- To legend: great conversation on your end but try to articulate, i get what you were TRYING to say but it didnt come off well, why you love the game more in the future and what makes it stand out, like you could break any total war yet you chose warhammer while imo there are a LOT of other games like anno, elder scrolls and most obsidian games that are much more breakable like you described To pixelated apollo: you asked great and critical questions with good points and i think that you often got derailed a bit wanting legend to admit the game is genuinely bad, he explained that the game is fun for him and many others because he doesnt play it the game is intended, that is still a form of pleasure and up to you to accept. As the conversation went on you got more and more on volunds bandwagon train. Volund: i really really really try to like you as a person but the way you raise those issues, this is not how you do it, trying to strawman a whole community by what they like and domineering the conversation including trying to make legend to admit Tw,Wh is bad doesnt add to the conversation at all, you raised valid issues about CA's work culture but be honest dude, everyone who disagree with you ends up on one of your slander video's If you brought your points with less hate towards the community (not including CA) and people who love a game, and most of all kept your opinion about people playing their offline game in the way they wanted to yourself, that would be great. All in all Personally i think you should replace volund for the great book of grudges, it would make the conversation more balanced and less railroaded by volund.

[@Slie1988]

100% agree with this GBoG would make such a better conversationalist and actually be objective into this! This may be unpopular, but I truly do enjoy Loremaster of Sotek as well even though he could be too hopeful at times at least its grounded from a good place.

[@themilkbaron8290]

Their argument against total war warhammer relies on being self-focused and disingenuous. A game’s quality (except for it functioning or not) is mostly subjective. To say warhammer is bad is to ignore its popularity (look at view counts, player counts, sales). All those fans enjoy playing it for a reason. Having an opinion on entertainment doesn’t make those people wrong. It’s for fun. If they’re having fun playing warhammer, the game is probably good to them - for any reason. Both historical and warhammer are for people’s enjoyment, and people enjoy different things. This isn’t math, there is no right answer. You like what you like and you buy and play it. Fun is all a game has to be - having an opinion on a game doesn’t make you correct, it doesn’t make it less fun (“good”) for those who enjoy it, and it especially doesn’t make you virtuous.

[@Ren99510]

That was brought up and the twos reaction was "oh that's just an appeal to popularity" I hate to break it to these guys but video games are a product that you have to sell. The fact is most of the TW fan base likes TWW, and these two are just coping when they say it's bad

[@themilkbaron8290]

@Ren99510 Thanks for pointing that out, and you’re right. PA bit the hand that fed him and his channel has never been as big. Sometimes I think the stress of that is funneled toward hating TWW. You can’t understand why people don’t watch you anymore turns into you can’t understand why people turn to TWW instead. But I don’t know these people personally, so that’s just presumptuous on my part. I can’t judge, either. It must be hard to not want to support CA and have your channel suffer.

[@mitchellbrough1615]

​@Ren99510 100% and in my opinion big part being only my opinion is many of those changes work for warhammer e.g. magic, legendary Lords etc but don't work for other settings the same way.

[@isaacpresley717]

Sorry to but in, but the popularity argument everyone makes is absolutely absurd to me. A game’s popularity equals its quality? Then tell me, where was that quality with Starfield? The game that everybody and their mother was hyped about, the game that won Steam’s most innovative game of the year award (steam awards are popularity contests), the game that fans immediately set to ignore or attack criticisms against it during launch. I ask again, where was the quality in the most barren, least developed, most apathetically curated game Bethesda has made to date? Apologies for the heat, my disdain for the game coated my argument. But another point is that to say popularity equals high quality also demeans unpopular games of high quality. Take the soulsborne series, for one instance. Elden Ring may be the most popular game of the series, one that even the mainstream gamers had to acknowledge. But, by your argument, such a thing was nigh impossible, because the base formula was horrendous. Demon’s Souls, the progenitor of all modern Souls games, was an objective market failure. The only profits the game made was after its launch, when Altus published the game in the West, making it a small cult classic in the gaming industry. Bottom line is, the game was unpopular. But was it *bad* ? If anything, the success of Elden Ring, a game that shares much of its base formula with Demon’s Souls, says otherwise. So… the popularity argument doesn’t really mean much?

[@skywalker6119]

@@isaacpresley717 Popularity and reception is not just popularity. Millions bought Starfield and went "meh." Millions bought Warhammer 2 and went "wow."

[@MrShoe321]

Even in the last video, Volound just cannot comprehend someone enjoying a game by playing it in their own way

[@Landonias93]

I actually like playing with balanced armies and fighting somewhat fairly. Engaging in an honest way. Volound is mostly about scamming the ai. I dont find that fun.

[@krazynavajo2591]

Legend is right its not objectively bad game, it has bad elements that could be addressed and fixed. The monetization of the game sucks to do failures in other areas of sega

[@Asrahn]

The monetization point really baffles me honestly. Do they really think that's Warhammer 3's fault as a game, something that is happening in the entire game's industry? Is the inclusion of wizards in Total War game to blame for DLC prices being ramped up? Genuinely a wild point to even bring up

[@thekey1175]

he literally said it was objectively bad

[@Slie1988]

@@Asrahn I agree - this is what baffles me too! Honestly if you can't afford the game when did it become "standard" to just say it was the companies fault for its price? I don't remember this much outrage when video games went from 49.99$ to 69.99$ - I mean hell - the average WH fan pays THOUSANDS to just play 1 army. Do people not have expensive hobbies or just really don't want to spend money on themselves? I mean you go to a movie and its basically the price of a DLC - and I bet my life that I'll get more value out of the DLC than going to a movie.

[@mgs85]

@@thekey1175 Who? Legend did not. Re-listen.

[@thekey1175]

@mgs85 Legend said if he was still a sales man and forced to sell you the game he would try and get off the phone ASAP. Then an hour later he says that CA cant make another good game stating the last one was not WH3. About an hour later after that he again reiterates that WH1& 2 are early access games for WH3. I don't blame you you are a result of public education

[@iInTerPreTeR]

Anyone coming across this now do yourself a favour and watch the first part of this and then skip the next 2. Painful to watch 2 grown adults who can't wrap their head around the idea of someone liking something they dont, christ

[@ThomasL12.]

god voulound is insufferable

[@bloodmagiclord8253]

you can't even spell

[@ooferdoofer7091]

I still remember one of Volound’s videos complaining about the SFX of TWWH artillery saying that it was too quiet meanwhile he had the volume of the game at like 5 lmao.

[@mcsmash4905]

my fav part wass him complaining about some units in shogun 2 being overpowered or some shit while ironicaly turning up the game difficulty on legendary

[@jamiecooper14]

I feel like the first video and half of the second video or so was a productive conversation and the latter half was merely Volound trying to put you in a corner to admit Warhammer is bad. It felt like a lot of bad faith arguments to me.

[@benfromthesewers1688]

Main problem with TW is.. People often incorrectly think it's fantasy vs historcial but often it's rather Modern TW game engine vs Old engine. Just play warhammer beggining of end times mod for medieval total war 2. Mod that Legend really loves. Try to fight there same way as you fight in modern TW, youd most likely lose as it plays completely differently. Legend also likes how different TW warhammer is from other titles, despite the maaany flaws, but he wouldnt want new TW to be like that too and weve seen how badly it ended when they tried to mash hero system into TW title where it does not belong to. in end it boils to Warhammer BOTET med2: Historical combat based on formations, morale, terrain with masive armies and strong fantasy elements. modern warhammer: Hero based, fast paced, squad like combat with smaller scale.

[@shorewall]

I agree that the real issue is the engine. The things that people complain about were there before Warhammer. And they persist in games since Warhammer.

[@aimerw]

20:25 This is the keystone to why Volound does not like TW:Warhammer - he sees magic and abilities as just gimmicks. This is not the case; they are tools to be used greatly or poorly, as the player understands how to do so. A gimmick is something flashy without substance and this is definitely not the case here. In fact, I would go as far to say that these features are what makes TW:Warhammer so popular and indeed fun (which was why the initial WoM for WH3 was a stepdown over WH2). What Volound desires is the base mechanics to be great. I do not think anyone disagrees here - the key is that this is not a mutually exclusive paradigm. Instead, it is more like a cake - you can have both a great base (whether biscuit, sponge, or flan) AND a great topping/icing. The topping is not a gimmick.

[@Zhohan-]

I can’t say what Volund thinks, but as a TW modder I can say there’s over a hundred minor/invisible mechanics in their games that have an inconsequential effect, but if they just buffed them, they’d make their battles far more interesting. The worst part is these are from the older games. They have made bad design choices for over a decade now.

[@joeytoofly5139]

I dont know though man the magic was kind gimmicky for awhile i remember the AI sucked with using magic. I dont know how they are now, but you can cheese alot of battles with just magic. I think magic is cool af but theres not a lot of strategy behind throwing a firery invocation on nehek or a pendulum on a line of enemies. The one unit buff spells are worthless. Restoration and damage are the main two magics used in competitive play. i love WH2 though

[@Landonias93]

Well said. You can suck at using magic properly. Just like a noob could maybe misuse cavalry or something. Magic is not gimmicky and many of the campaign mechanics are not gimmicky. He is just someone that hates it and will never give it a chance.

[@joeytoofly5139]

@Landonias93 I see what you're saying but how hard is it to cast a pendulum down a line? I think what gets most people is the winds of magic more than anything and in Warhammer 2 I almost never ran out

[@H0kram]

Never heard about Volund, thanks for participating but let people talk ffs. It made me want to listen more of you on podcasts Legend. Laidback, mature, interesting perspective, good social skills ( ahum ) always bits of things that work past videogames. It's a good skill to have. Thanks guys.

[@Anonie324]

@@H0kram Volound was on his best behavior here, because he wasn't trying to brigade legend with his discord, since he's banned from reddit and total war forums. It's genuinely amazing how cruel and toxic he is.

[@H0kram]

@@Anonie324 Oh wow...that's taking passion to a level of heresy right there.

[@PixelatedApollo1]

I appreciate the talk Legend. It was a fun podcast, got to do it again soon

[@baggelis_aikaterinis]

Yes you have to !

[@random_lich7604]

Take somebody else for volound, he only sees his points and never somebody's else

[@crucibleclips]

MOAR

[@mgs85]

Don't invite Volound. I don't know why you guys think he adds anything to these discussions. If you must, have the stubborn prick read a prepared statement and then leave. But I promise you guys, you can find someone else to came at these games and company from a totally negative perspective. Talking with Volound is so utterly pointless and every few years someone has to drag him out of his cave to remind themselves of this.

[@snorlax3213]

You are an outdated dust of the past

[@hubris7434]

"people are too stupid and they need guidance" is the motto of this podcast.

[@lobear3074]

1 grown adult and 2 whiney babies talk about Total War. Videos like this prove why I only like watching Legend.

[@siluda9255]

3 grown adults and thousands of angry slop consumers angry because they little toy got called out for what it is

[@lobear3074]

@@siluda9255 You the one who seems angry lol

[@shubhabrataray1313]

​@@lobear3074it's always projection with people like this.

[@SnakePlissy]

⁠@@lobear3074So based off that you’re angry .. Lool .

[@SnakePlissy]

@@shubhabrataray1313As are you .. Flawless logic boys 👏

[@rogueleader1996]

This one was pretty annoying to listen to for a while. So much of it was just them trying their best to convince you or find a way for you to admit it’s “objectively bad”. I don’t know why it matters so much for them to have people agree is “objectively bad”. It can just be “subjectively bad”. The fact that they disagree on that, makes it subjective. So what’s their fixation on forcing you to somehow say it’s “objective”

[@emilbj23]

From an historical TW fan who never played WH, these podcasts have been rage inducing. These guys (Volound and Pixelated) are constantly insulting players, other KZbinrs, people working hard at CA etc. They are insufferable know-it-all which actually know very little about the recent games, as they many times repeat. Just because other people like something they don't like. Come on, grow up or keep on playing your 15 Yold game and shut up. Thanks Legend for being the voice of reason. For once I think you were even too diplomatic, you should have been waaay harder on them!

[@adambrooker5649]

I think you needed to give more positive examples, the character upgrade mechanics, how you can customise lords, the huge breadth of different ways to play, different races and characters, the fluff, the lore and how to recreate it in game. The same as they like to play historically, and re create, you can do it in game...

[@cousinokri]

Also the massive amount of lore and variety behind the game. That's why so many people enjoy it. Where else can I send 8000 rats to atrack a wall of dwarfs?

[@Plaeya01]

This is the comment I was looking for

[@nikolaantanasijevic6036]

Every discussion no matter the topic with the person whose only goal is to confirm his own viewpoint is just a big loss of time and energy.

[@adambrooker5649]

I've watched all 3, I think voland and Apollo are really just historical players, who didn't grow up with Warhammer, and just can't like it.... They are also upset that CA has had success with Warhammer, and have ignored the historical games that they like.... If it was a crap game, it wouldn't sell, and in their minds, they cant see the attraction... I think they are purposely refusing to like it in principle.... To me its like when Warhammer fantasy was killed, i just refused to play Age of Sigmar, despite it eventually being very successful.... They simply can't comprehend

[@benfromthesewers1688]

I Think vast majority of old player base hate comes from fact that it does not play like older TW titles as it shifted from formations and morale heavy to stats and heroes. And so when they try bring their tactics from older titles it completely fails evrey time and they end up confused where it goes wrong. I had that phase until I realized how different TW warhammer is from other titles. Best way to figure it out is to play medieval2: Botet warhammer mod and modern TW titles to see the major difference. Legend was also repeating same point in 3 videos. "Its diffferent thing and i like it." In nutshell

[@adambrooker5649]

@benfromthesewers1688 yep agree

[@manakzar7148]

​@@adambrooker5649 TW:WH3 is my first Total war game and my first entry to warhammer universe. I've but 1600 hours in to the game this year.

[@KazeKoichi]

Legend also started as historical player, his old playthroughs of historical TWs can still be found on his channel, and he still likes some historical games that he considers good. The difference is Legend found good in WH, and that made his a fan of fantasy too.

[@adambrooker5649]

@KazeKoichi yes I know he started in historical, so did I, I just think for Apollo and Voland, it's a step too far for them

[@OtterMusician]

** DISCLAIMER : I have not yet finished the final video. Typing this out at 37:53 ** I think the issue that caused the conversation disconnect was the original proposal for Legend to "sell" them Warhammer 3. That's a lost cause from the start, because they both have zero interest. They aren't prospects, they aren't leads, they have _actively stated_ that they hate the game. The best course of action from there if they can't be convinced that WH3 can provide them anything unique or better than what they already play is to just move on. Which I do think Legend tried to do. Apollo consistently tried to ask Legend for specific strengths of WH3 or specific elements that he enjoys on a personal level. He didn't draw out those specific elements because there was little point. Elements he might enjoy were elements that could be irrelevant to Apollo and Volound. From my perspective, I believe Warhammer 3 is a bad game. There's technical debt, poor design decisions, a sluggish patch cycle, and every DLC content addition for WH3 has been overpriced. There's loads of abusable mechanics, strange indecipherable AI behavior, the game as a whole has unsatisfying melee infantry combat, and whatever team is working on the game at CA is still playing catch-up with bugs that have been around for years. Despite that, I still enjoy Warhammer 3 for the experience it provides. There are things you can do in Warhammer 3 that you cannot find in a historical title. Fantastical monstrous infantry and SEMs plowing through enemy lines is immensely satisfying. Using magic to overcome superior numbers in combination with a choke point is immensely satisfying. Certain campaigns have horrible starting situations, where the dominoes can bump into each other and leave you in a terrible situation, but having the odds stacked against you in this piece of shit game and coming out on top feels incredible. Edit/Afterthoughts : I really enjoyed this set of videos! It was interesting to hear each person's thoughts and the resulting conversations. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

[@rinserofwinds]

I agree with all your points and still come to a different conclusion. for me total warhammer is a good game, because it succeeds at the most important point of a game I want to play: It is a lot of fun! thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[@niamhshannon6153]

Man this sucked, Volound and Apollo are just snickering and fishing for gotchas and Legend is approaching in good faith, looking for an honest discussion

[@KazeKoichi]

Legend can't judge the game objectively. But neither are PA and Volound. And when people try to convince you their subjective opinion is objective, they sounds really annoying.