The fastest metagame of all time - DPP Little Cup

[@ItsReallyColdOutside]

The reason why everything hits hard is because the formula for damage takes offensive stat and base damage against defensive stat and hp. However, because everything is lvl 5, the overall stats are very low but the bp of the moves are the same that level 100 pokemon use so they skew the damage formula upwards (way upwards)

[@henriquepacheco7473]

also part of why VGC is generally so much more offensive than smogon tiers - lvl 50 mons have this same thing going (even if the difference there is an order of magnitude below the difference between OU and LC). This, alongside team size, is why smogon doubles are a way slower meta.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

@@henriquepacheco7473according to the online damage calc, 2 level 5’s do more damage to each other with the same move vs 2 level 100’s. so it should be the opposite of what you said.

[@joshmountain9705]

​@@fulltimeslackerii8229reread what both the other posts said.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

@@joshmountain9705yeah i did. higher levels hit harder. but they’re saying the opposite

[@qnz469]

@@fulltimeslackerii8229 dont think ur getting it. He is saying lower levels do more damage bc high basepower against low stats is more effective than highbasepower vs high stats

[@reg4835]

I believe the calc you were mentioning is corphish life orb adaptability aqua jet only does 5% to Onix when in Sun. The damage rounding in LC does crazy things sometimes.

[@stealthy9156]

There's a really funny calc with Onix and corpish in little cup. Life orb adaptability aqua jet in sun can deal I think from 5% 15/16 rolls, and 50(?)% 1/16 rolls. This happens because in order of the damage calculation onix's massive defense stat, the damage roll and the sun damage reduction apply before the weakness, adaptability and life orb boosts, so if the damage (which is 1 right before the damage roll due to the aforementioned factors) is multiplied by a number smaller than 1 (aka all the possible 0,85-0,99 values) it will be smaller than one and thus rounded down to 0 (the calc always rounds down on decimals) and staying at 0 for the rest of the calculation. The damage then is turned into 1 since an effective move cannot deal 0 damage outside exceptions like false swipe. However if the damage doesn't get rounded to 0 I'm the calculation all the boosts from stab adaptability, life orb, and the weakness do apply, making the hit deal a lot of damage (don't remember the exact amount)

[@DantinozMC]

Ayo is it BKC season? Grab your pillows and a multitude of alternative comforting items!

[@Kodiak_45]

So what BKC was talking about at 17:23 was the game between Drew and TheFenderStory during week 2 of LCPL 6. During that game LO Carvanha Aqua Jet did much less damage to Gligar in sun than the DPP damage calc said it would do. This culminated in a policy review thread created by Freezai titled "Bugs that directly influence the outcome of a game." As it turns out the DPP calc was correct, but every gen after gen 2 was using the gen 5 damage formula on PS itself simply because the other damage formulas weren't implemented yet. Obviously the thread is more in-depth but this is just the summary for those who are curious.

[@lastmexicano]

Link?

[@ricardoludwig4787]

Fun fact: you basically never use specs or band in little cup because life orb recoil is so small and because of all the rounding going on it often doesn't make a difference

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

so is that the same reason why leftovers is useless?

[@pedroide23000]

​​@@fulltimeslackerii8229eftovers has no use because of oran berry, why bother trying to get that chip healing when you are going to die with three hits max, oran berry gives you more healing and immediately

[@corasolagalar]

@@fulltimeslackerii8229 yeah, oran berry will heal 10 hp whereas lefties only heals 1/16 of your health per turn, and no pokemon has 32 or more hp so lefties only will ever heal 1 hp per turn, so unless a pokemon is in for 10 turns (which lc is too fast paced for that) lefties are always outclassed by oran

[@tysondennis1016]

Same reason why I never run AV, always running Eviolite.

[@henriquepacheco7473]

I don't know about carvanha, but corphish clicking life orb aqua jet under sun against Onix in later little cups would result in a very weird roll that has high odds of dealing 1 damage and one of the rolls deals 10 damage instead, which happens because of the order of modifiers in the damage calc alongside the interger rounding that pokemon does. Basically, because of how early some specific modifiers are applied in the calc (including weather), it lowers the calc number to below one in every roll but max, meaning it rounds down to 0 and stays there throughout the entire calc, until the game forces it to deal 1 damage. Max roll gets a ton of boosts from type matchup, adaptability and so on, going all the way up to 10 damage.

[@IschmarVI]

I've once seen a damage calc against onix that had a chance to either did 4 (or 6, don't remember which one) or 24 damage - with nothing in between. Forgot which generation that was though. But yeah, integer rounding is fun with small numbers.

[@Lichtkrieger13]

As a council member I say: I love the meta but goddamn can it be infuriating. Thanks for covering one of the greatest metas of all time (my fav meta is GSC OU so we can't even say that I dislike bulky stuff)

[@michael_betts]

The calc you mentioned is adaptability life orb aqua jet from corphish in sun hitting an eviolite onix. Because of rounding it does 1 damage 15/16 times, and 10 damage 1/16 times, and crit doesnt affect the damage. onix defence +sun + damage range pushes everything but a max damage roll to be rounded down to 0, and a max damage roll stays 1, then supereffectiveness and life orb make the max roll 10, while everything else stays 0.

[@xrychx]

I wrote the DPP Zigzagoon analysis ages ago. One of my favorite tiers of play ever!

[@phellowshipstar8756]

The metagame for players who don't like playing WITH their opponent but like playing AT their opponent.

[@marianosimoniglesias]

This is also the last gen before the big Gen 5 explosion nerf. Gastly, geodude and voltrob explosion were INSANE

[@camsons]

Im someone who plays and enjoys stall quite a lot, despite this gen 4 lc is my absolute favorite tier. It's such a fun and inventive tier, and seeing a bunch of little goobers brawl eachother to the death is just nice

[@theschnozzler]

You make me sick

[@Clooger-]

Enjoys stall? Tell me you have a 2inch without telling me you have a 2inch

[@camsons]

@@Clooger- I'm a woman lol, lmao

[@Clooger-]

@camsons "lol, lmao" holy shit were reaching levels of degenerate that shouldn't be possible

[@piszanshid1953]

Based stall enjoyer

[@Cyberas-jet]

Nice video BKC. Thanks to you I’ve grown interested in the older gems and have even participated in my first tournament. Gonna try LC when I can since it looks fun.

[@SkorpTS]

I dabbled in DPP Little Cup well over a decade ago, and I definitely remember Meowth being used. Apparently it's a really good lead still.

[@MenwithHill]

So hype you made a vid on this ! I've been fascinated by this metagame seeing glimpses of it on FSG.

[@alestanealonraskin6155]

watching top player replays of gen 4 lc looks like watching 1000 elo replays of any other tier

[@golderzoa]

this video inspired me into getting back into little cup. Gen 8 little cup is by far one of my favorite tiers it's worth checking out. i just wish there was more little cup ladders on showdown so i don't have to go through different channels asking people to play and get games but it's cool to see you talk about all these different metagames little cup is a very cool experience once you understand how the metagame works you can play with a lotta different things and do decently with them. not saying everything is good or viable just saying you can go a long way with some of your favorites if you know what your doing.

[@bruh_moment]

honestly loved how grookey worked pretty much the exact same as rillaboom did in higher tiers

[@golderzoa]

@bruh_moment i also loved how larvesta was a good check to it as well the metagame was super balanced till hail was unbanned

[@Blibetyblabla]

Metagame so fast that BKC made a video on it that was less than 1 hour long

[@bohrierpokemonvideos392]

Finally, a DPP LC video I've been waiting for this for so long

[@Joel97_]

Heysup's teams are always such a delight to see

[@palyername]

the fact that the high octane everything dies left and right tier is the one where babies are fighting is really funny. look at those little guys go.

[@Pacca64]

I played a lot of gen 6 and 7 little cup, especially rain teams. That was mostly because I wanted to make buizel work x3 but they were fun! A standout rain team member I really liked was anorith, they got swift swim and hit pretty hard.

[@BobDFish]

This metagame is a gateway drug.

[@Akumo69]

The main 2 reasons why dpp lc is faster paced than other lc formats is because eviolite doesn't exist yet as BKC already stated but ALSO berry juice doesn't exist yet and I don't see anyone talking about this. Berry juice heals 20 hp which is 100% for most pokemon at lvl 5 I'm pretty sure; but since it is unobtainable in gen 4, oran berry, the next best item, is used instead. It only heals 10 hp which makes all pokemon in the format frailer. Leftovers is never used because since it only heals 1/16 of the users full hp rounded down to the nearest whole number, it will always heal 1 hp per turn unless your hp is 32 or higher which isn't possible in lc. Lmk in the replies section if I made any errors.

[@CatboyJerma2]

Munchlax can actually just barely hit 32 hp, maxing out at 33, but no other mon could possibly get there

[@NailsOU]

berry juice is in the game but is banned because it outclasses every other item and does not really promote interesting gameplay. it's just a second life for every mon unless you take ohkoes and so the game is super swingy based on whether you can kill around the juice activation.

[@CMSonYT]

God....I can't believe Gen 4 was so long ago. It's crazy how good ghastly is and how OP misdreavus was.

[@dnys_7827]

how do you think it would go if the amount of total evs that a pokemon can have was raised from 510 to 765 while the max ev amount for a single stat stayed at 255? this would mean that an ev spread could max out three stats instead of two. would this make mixed attackers viable, now that they can max out atk, spatk and spd? would it create stronger walls able to invest in hp, def and spdef? would it be a net positive change?

[@giroppa99]

Dpp lc chinchou carries the torch of greatness of advanced lanturn

[@DantinozMC]

Bro that first game was wild

[@MrMimikry]

can you do a video on if hidden abilities existed in ADV or DPP? id be very interested in seeing how the meta would shift

[@matheuscastello6554]

loving the upload rate

[@idontcheckmynotifications]

You uploaded almost as fast as a g4 lc match ended Anyway, stan g4 lc

[@piszanshid1953]

Some of these old metals really interest me, but I know if I try to play the ladder will be dead (if there is even a ladder for it at all)

[@blue_elite964]

17:40 i think what you’re thinking about is corphish vs onix in sun, where it does 1 damage 15-16 times and then 50% 1/16

[@reverie9358]

Few things bring me more joy than seeing all these goofy little cute guys being competitively viable

[@beeorsomething2230]

This tier is awesome

[@ElectricGoosemonkey]

Hey BKC I think the reason that everything does so much damage is cuz the games are balanced expecting Lv 5 mons to be using scratch and ember And are not expected to have evs

[@stealthy9156]

EVs in little cup add very few stat points in total, try it in the teambuilder for yourself

[@ElectricGoosemonkey]

Yeah 1.26 compared to 1.43 Sample size 1 Doesn’t account for the massive damage difference Probably down to the difference in move power mostly

[@etohKP]

i watched this video at 2x speed to simulate the pace of dpp lc

[@keiharris332]

So in other words, people who need immediate gratification. Gotcha.

[@shenFen-jf2jk]

Most people have lives so a faster metagame is more appealing.

[@tabbender1232]

Just people who want to play in an actually manly way instead of stalling

[@oneobstyboi5697]

DPP.LITTLE CUP. THE DAY IS HERE. IM SO EXCITED

[@tysondennis1016]

I’d love an SV LC Ubers. Of course, I still have fun on NFE.

[@sarasaland4709]

The good old days of Little Cup before Mienfoo.

[@Cobalt957]

I see why people like Little cup, but I havent got any joy out of it lately. Dpp is probably the best out there because the rly fast pace, which allows you to get back from a tough spot, if you messed up with early on. The laster ones got so much bulk over time which killed the spirit of Little cup for me. I think a lot is matchup dependend and games snowball out of hand pretty quickly after even a little bit of hax. One crit and you can lose a game on the spot. Happened to me way too many times and the handfull of Tournament games i saw. Terastelasation in Scarlet and Violet is also really terrible in my eyes, it provides a lot of guessing games which shouldnt be a thing in a metagame in which every turn is crutial..usually. Pokemon like Mareene and Foongus slow down games quiet a ton which isnt too bad and thats a reason why i think sword and shield is on the better side of Little cup however thats again killing the fast pace DPP introduced which was rly fun. I can have fun with Little cup but I wont have any fun at competing at the highest level because a little bit of bad luck which is a typical element of Pokémon, will get you in bad (even losing) positions and you cant do much against it.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

This is pretty much an issue with Pokemon as whole with how the game is designed. Tons of monster collectors and JRPGs like Yo-Kai Watch or Shin Megami Tensei tend to give you a diverse pool of options to play around and against accuracy, evasion and crits. Pokemon doesn't have as much freedom playing with those ideas so the best you get are weak gimmicks (Sniper Kingdra, No Guard Machamp) or overcentralizing broken stuff (Brightpowder, Urshifu)

[@pedroide23000]

one aspect I cant stand of lc is the many speed ties. I played a lot of swsh lc and i realized many of my games were decided by speed ties specially the ones with 17 speed, mienfoo, grookey and natu

[@Inaba_Psycho]

What if the magnezone line never acquired the steel typing?

[@inazuma-fulgur]

Everything getting rounded down because of the way pokemon is coded makes for some funny calcs Even in new bulky gens it's common to live hits 15/16 without hp invest but drop to the 1/16 even with a maxed out stat Also makes investing on or two points more or less into attack or defense change nothing a lot of the time Why choice band is essentially dead (some niche cases) and choice specs even more, why lorb rules amongst damage boosting items.

[@Wizzyhatg]

Interesting, I started playing competitive when BWLC was current and never really thought about a no eviolite LC. If you were around back then, was there any consideration of an eviolite ban not for competitive balance but just to maintain the flavor of the tier from DPP?

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

many complained that they felt it ruined the spirit of the tier but afaik it was never seriously considered for a ban!

[@Wizzyhatg]

@@BKCplaysPokemon A gen 5 no eviolite LC tournament sounds like it might be interesting, though LO mienfoo would probably need to be banned

[@NailsOU]

there was a suspect test for eviolite very early on in gen 5. the community decided that eviolite was good for the tier and left it legal, and it has stayed that way ever since.

[@kala__362]

This sounds cool because the only stuff I don't like about stally teams is the stall v stall match-up, which is usually just so exponentially slower (sometimes to the point of a draw) that I find it a little bit frustrating. That probably doesn't happen too often in this tier, does it?

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

literally never since stall doesn't exist!

[@themaincharactertm]

hey that dratini bagon team was dragmag thats cool

[@shimogane2474]

Ayeee I m making a lc league in gen9, BUT with gen4 rulesets. So Eviolite and berry juice are banned! This is going to be crazy

[@alliedmussel1011]

I thought it was adaptability corphish using aqua jet in the sun against onix either dealing 1 damage or 8 damage

[@tahotra]

why does everything hit so hard, well at lvl five everyth- every bit of damage, er um, yknow i wont pretend to know the damage meter, all i know is everything hits hard at lvl 5😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@screwtokaiba]

wait i thought theres already a video about this exact topic lol

[@arcanusafonso2647]

Oh yeah, my second favorite metagame ever: children beating the crap out of each other with military-grade weaponry!

[@rubeng9092]

I love zigzagoon

[@erwin791]

just fwiw none of these were specs snover or band gligar. choiced items are really bad in lc bc of the damage formula. life orb is 99% of the times better, except on extremely hard hitting moves like reckless hjk from cb foo

[@dragonhunter2001]

Is scarf still useful just for the slower pokes?

[@erwin791]

@@dragonhunter2001 oh scarf is really good, i just meant damage wise theyre (band and specs) not worth it. most mons w a scarf are able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, and therefore stuff like wailmer cranidos gligar mankey snover or gastly use choice scarf really well in dpp lc.

[@algar6616]

I got some interest in dpp little cup, yo

[@HollowPurpleSeb261]

How the hell do you even EV mons for this meta in game?

[@HollowPurpleSeb261]

And not get past level 5

[@IschmarVI]

@@HollowPurpleSeb261 by fighting low level enemies and splitting the experience between a bunch of pokemon. Also, vitamins help a lot with it as well.

[@wariotv1516]

Why aren’t they using berry juice

[@mrpiccionedivino5598]

It's banned.

[@oopsalldeoxys5060]

Time to sit down and load up some dark souls and chill

[@finalGambitShedinja]

taking simple bidoof to LC ladder

[@evilcow666]

I feel like this is subtle subtweet at the people who didnt like the gsc video

[@komodovah6433]

With all the changes that happened throughout the generations, would things like Scyther and dragon rage still be banned from LC?

[@gotdamn4989]

yes

[@sliced8669]

90% of Mons don’t even have 40 HP And scyther way too fast and strong for everything

[@komodovah6433]

Even if scyther was forced to go itemless?

[@mort3562]

​@@komodovah6433I mean if you wanna go that route you can try to theorymon everything in lc as long as you put enough restrictions on it. "Hm yes, we should allow girafarig in gen 9 but without twin beam or eviolite or nasty plot or dazzling gleam o--"

[@komodovah6433]

@@mort3562 I honestly can't tell if you're joking around with what you said, but I'll just assume you're not and accept that LC is better off with Scyther being perma banned.

[@chrisdrums1910]

Kelvin

[@LRXC1]

ADV LC over here like...

[@tabbender1232]

ADV in general is much slower and more defensive than gens 4 and 5

[@LRXC1]

@@tabbender1232 the same isn’t true for ADV LC

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

When it comes to viewership, many passersby and casuals love things to be fast and engaging and to see variety. It's kinda why Pokemon most of the time kinda sucks to watch cuz it so laughably slow even for a turn based game compared to other JRPGs with better UI. This is why so many default to Showdown where the UI and replays are clearly faster. Must we need a reminder how bad DPP HP bars on cartridge are? Lol. Couple the better speed and UI of Showdown with its actual flexibility to experiment as opposed to minmaxing on cartridge, you get an easier vaccuum for a meta to be played and evolve. I would also venture to say lack of power creep keeps things more diverse in DPP. Unova is famous for the amount of hyper offensive monsters it introduced that invalidate many monsters. In OU, you have Landorus-T among other things. In Little Cup, you have Mienfoo, Pawniard, Archen, Vullaby and such proving to be very meta-dominant in LC.

[@jets4rit]

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