The Fog Cloud Spell: How does it even work?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Common question: If someone outside the cloud attacks someone inside the cloud, do they have advantage or disadvantage? The answer is both, because you cannot see each other, you have both advantage and disadvantage, which cancel out, so the attack is made straight up.

[@brennsinger1799]

If you take the Alert feat, your enemies don't get advantage on their attack rolls against you, leaving them at disadvantage. Your own attacks will still be straight rolls, however, as you still have advantage and disadvantage.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@brennsinger1799 I had not considered that, that's a great point! Thanks!

[@M0ebius]

Does Alert actually work? Creatures are not getting advantage as a result of being hidden from you, they are getting advantage from you being blinded. Unseen and Hidden are two different things in 5E.

[@youtubecommenter6753]

I really hate the RAW on how advantage/disadvantage works in this situation; it's pretty absurd. You shouldn't gain advantage on attacks against a creature that can't see you if you can't see it; disadvantage for all.

[@M0ebius]

K VC I’ve tried the disadvantage for all method, and frankly the problem with that is it takes a LOOOONG time to resolve combat, especially at lower levels. My table found it better to sacrifice realism in favor of pacing and rules integrity.

[@nathankelley1466]

That was very helpful. You should do more single subject vids like this one. It is hard to watch videos that are long from many different KZbinrs, so I appreciate the brevity.

[@MikkoSav123]

I agree.

[@GigY5777]

Increasing playback speed works wonders,by the by. I don't use it only for music now. Our boy treantmonk is comfortably x2 to my ears xD

[@nathankelley1466]

@@GigY5777 good advice in most cases, unless its something somewhat confusing or ambiguous sounding like many 5e rules are. 10 minutes is manageable for my attention span most of the time

[@markcronan]

I think of Fog Cloud as a special type of movement spell. It's the "We need to flee" spell. The enemies have closed on you, PCs are low on HP, the enemy is clearly stronger than you. So you cast it, and now you can retreat with the dash action, taking no opportunity attacks (which are denied by blinded condition). You can also hide and then move your full speed away. Either way, it effectively lets the party retreat without opportunity attacks and foes following you directly.

[@bigdream_dreambig]

Hah! The way you described it made me think of magicians who create smoke and a flash with a flourish and then "disappear." 😝

[@AllThingsFascinate]

I dont understand how you get the blinded condition. It's heavily obscured. Creatures still no where you are without a hide roll. That's not blinded.

[@d_camara]

@@AllThingsFascinate "creatures effectively have the blinded condition while trying to perceive anything in the area" for heavily obscured, it means there's zero light, basically. It's dodgy with the fact that it doesn't hide creatures, even tho it breaks line of sight, but if you think about it as hearing the other creatures closeby and that being enough to know roughly where they are it makes some sense

[@francoisgagnonlemieux3135]

This is exactly how I am understanding the fog cloud from my rule research but I don't bother with it because most DM won't understand it nor do they wish to talk about it because they think it's obvious, until you waste your level 1 spell slot in a fight.

[@sebakat1993]

Or when you always fight outside, and your cloud doesn't last more than a round because of the wind. Then you feel like you could have learned another spell.

[@caiusofglantri5513]

Great video! Made me reassess Fog Cloud. And the Eversmoking Bottle in the hands of goblins! A couple of things I thought of: 1. You cannot move into a hostile creature's space, so I guess you/they can detect your presence if you or they try that, even if you/they can't see or hear you. 2. If you have the Alert feat, creatures don't gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you, so if they don't have advantage from something else, they would attack at disadvantage.

[@jeffdietz630]

Great explanations. Tashas creation of blindfight for Fighter, Paladin and Ranger not to mention fighting initiate feat have greatly increased the spells utility. Could be one of the most consequential changes out of Tashas.

[@teeseeuu]

Great Video! For better or worse, this spell is one of the centerpieces of my Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock

[@smbakeresq]

Also, as a DM you need to remember that your creatures that have a Fog Cloud dripped on them wouldn’t know the dimensions of the cloud, so wouldn’t know the shortest way to get out or anything like that until they actually got out of he cloud and saw the edge. They would know the direction they saw the PCs in if they saw them. This helps the players, they can put more of the cloud between the PCs and enemies of the so chose. Most enemies would go around the edge of the cloud rather then just charge in blindly. A Troll probably wouldn’t care and will just go through it towards the PCs. It depends on each creature.

[@jensn6490]

Fog cloud+wild shaping into a giant spider or earth elemental would be great. One party member could cast fog cloud and buff the wizards animated objects with advantage since they have 30ft blindsight. Or you could just use an eversmoking bottle if no one has fog cloud prepared

[@M0ebius]

Fog Cloud+Animate Objects is actually a great call! My party currently runs double Animate Objects with Bard/Sorc plus Crusader’s Mantle from the Paladin as our boss killer combo. Fog Cloud would totally take it up another notch.

[@energyfitness5116]

Pyrotechics for the smoke. Non-concentration.

[@0ldSch00l13]

Not to mention that the cloud+spider combo is available to Moon Druids at 2nd level. A 2nd level character with 26hp and advantage on it's attacks is an absolute beast even before you factor in the potential poison damage.

[@seanedgar164]

My dm just gave me, the party druid, a Staff of the Python and that's got blindsight. Needless to say I'm hyped for sessions going forward!

[@muskrat7444]

I've been going back and rewatching all your old videos Chris. Fog cloud is so much more fun now with blind fighting as a new fighting style.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It's a very potent combo for sure. Works even against creatures with truesight.

[@kshea4231]

now with blind fighting style, this makes things a whole lot more interesting. it's just like the darkness devil sight combo but achieved with a 1st level spell

[@Candyapplebone]

I was just thinking this.

[@leodouskyron5671]

Basically Fog works the way it did in the old spy movies in the 60’s (use it and run from a bad situation ) and in the original movie Wraith of Khan (Use it to balance the odds when you can’t leave but think you can get lucky).

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

Great video, thank you for describing these rules, Fog Cloud, the most complicated 1st level spell? Perhaps the most complicated spell that is 2-3 lines of description? I believe you didn't include one of the bigger points of Fog Cloud, creatures that are blinded cannot perform opportunity attacks. This makes the rogue attack+sneak even better as they get free disengage too (almost always). Perhaps a level 1 sorcerer/wizard/druid and swashbuckle rogue could be a useful multiclass? Or Magic Initiate of course.

[@M0ebius]

Fog Cloud is both good and bad for the Rogue. You don’t trigger opportunity attacks, so things like Booming Blade+Sneak Attack become very strong. But since advantage and disadvantage don’t stack and cancel each other out, that means the only way Sneak Attack triggers is by having an ally next to your target. Swashbucklers already get a free disengage on melee attacks by the way. You don’t need the Fog Cloud.

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

Well that's kinda untrue but I think it's effectively true. I knew that swashers could get sneak attack on their own but not the exact details (no enemies within 5 feet other than the target) but they only get disengage for the target they attack. So realistically you're right that they don't need fog because they get that disengage for free, under what I implied that it was only against a sneak attacked enemy (therefore there can be only one), but they don't disengage completely, so other enemies can still attack them. In this case they would benefit from fog cloud, but they are not using sneak attack so they're kinda useless in combat at that point anyway.

[@BreakingStarGames]

Very fun as a Moon Druid combined with blind sense as a spider. Great survivability. Much better survivability but you definitely don't want to mess up your fellow players so better just to use it on a few targets

[@PocoSalvaje]

That’s nasty! Thanks for the idea. Gonna get my Moon Druid to take this wildshape to help out our blind sense fighter.

[@undrhil]

I have a tier 1 War Wizard in Adventurer's League. I don't remember the mod we were going through, but we were fighting these things that had additional damage when they hit with advantage. I cast fog cloud and scooted up into the attic until the combat was over. Cancelled the extra damage but it made the Rogue not able to do their sneak attack since they weren't coordinating with the other melee party members. So that's his signature move now: fog cloud, duck and cover to avoid fighting (if possible.) It works out great so far! :D

[@undrhil]

@@sharkforce8147 he actually calls himself a burglar :P

[@LarsaXL]

One thing I absolutely love about Fog Cloud is that it is one of depressingly few spells that genuinely gets a lot of value from being upcast. With a high level spell slot you can easily cover the entire battlefield.

[@jensn6490]

You could totally shut down a beholder with fog cloud. It can't see you to target you with it's eye rays, the antimagic cone would temporarily remove the fog but it would come back, during which time it can see you but it would be nullifying the magic of it's own eye rays. Watch out because it can still bite ya though :p

[@M0ebius]

A Beholder without eyes is just a big sack of meat.

[@acm4bass]

what would the anti-magic ray have on a magically summoned fog cloud?

[@acm4bass]

As a dm, i would be inclined to say, since duration isn't instant- it is essentially reforming constantly and the magic eye would remove the spell.

[@aethon0563]

@@acm4bass fog cloud is concentration. It's definitely a magical effect, and thus dampened by the anti magic eye.

[@DrunkenIsley]

@@M0ebius and a jaw

[@SuperDre1990]

Thought that spell was better I thought everything was at disadvantage without some special sight, thx for the video

[@goose6752]

When you mentioned moving stealthily at full speed, it brought to mind that the stealth rules are kind of vague and frought with misconception as well. I'm hoping you might do a video about how stealth / hidden work, as well as detecting hidden, common misconceptions about both, typical home rulings to make them "better" or more "realistic", and etc. For example, I'm in contention with a friend / player of mine that 5E isn't 4E; so that even if an unseen enemy isn't hidden, you don't necessarily know exactly where they are (i.e. "You hear something about 30' NE of you."), I'll give adjacent targets but start getting vague beyond 10'. Including some examples of the weird things things that can happen might be helpful as well; like when we had a skulker scout blithely wander past a goblin ambush that the rest of the party subsequently blundered into.

[@M0ebius]

5E RAW is unless you take the Hide action, people just always know where you are regardless of invisibility or heavy obscurement. Edit: Assuming they can hear you.

[@goose6752]

@@M0ebius 4E explicitly states that you know what square a target is in if they're unseen but not hidden. 5E uses the vague term location. A strictly gamist interpretation denotes location as the square in which the target is located. A realistic interpretaton puts error bars on the degree of accuracy to which you can instantaneously (passive percepton) pinpoint a target by sound, with the size of the error being affected by the volume of the target (i.e. leather vs. plate), distance to the target, and covering background noise. The point being, that the RAW is vague and thus open to interpretation (like illusions and suggestion). And seriously, if the thunderclap cantrip can only be heard 100' awaty, how far do you have to be before you can't hear me walking down the street having a normal conversation or just standing still, drawing arrows and patwanging my bow in your general direction.

[@M0ebius]

Goose And my point is just that absent DM fiat, if you can hear, you know where the target is by RAW unless the Hide action was taken. Handle it on the table as you will, I don’t particularly disagree with any of your points in the context of logic or immersion.

[@goose6752]

​@@M0ebiusYes, you get to know the location. In 4E you could ignore the rule and make more realistic choices. In 5E, the DM is required to make a decision about what location means, especially if you're playing theatre of the mind and not using a battle map, because the 5E wording fails to define location with the precision that 4E did. I could put an invisible enemies token in the middle of 4 squares and say he's in one of them, and still be within the bounds of RAW with a realistic level of imprecision due to in game circumstances. Right?

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@goose6752 that seems fair

[@MikkoSav123]

Nice to see that you do these shorter clips too! This reminded me about Contagion spell. I think that it is somewhat vaguely worded and it probably isn't worth it's level. Have you said anything about it online before? I can't remember..

[@M0ebius]

There has been an errata that made Contagion more clear, although it more or less was a complete rewrite of the spell.

[@MikkoSav123]

@@M0ebius Thanks! I'll check it out.

[@WexMajor82]

The true reason to get a bat familiar.

[@acm4bass]

Sadly, I thought this as well. I had wanted to find a familar other to use than owl. I had seen a streaming show have a bat as the "eyes" of a blind character, but RAW the use of the bats to see though them is in fact an action, leaving you hampered to act.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@acm4bass touch spell via bat or is line if site needed? Assuming another spellcaster is concentrating on the fog cloud.

[@acm4bass]

@@anthonynorman7545 so two different issues. Yes a familiar can execute a touch spell. And depending on the spell, touch or sight might be required. The second issue is using the familiars senses to see, which takes an action. I am unaware of any rules other than dm determinations to categorically limit this or maybe your dm will encourage it. Idk.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@acm4bass a familiar can do the touching portion of a touch spell using its reaction, so a bat would be able to deliver it (so long as the caster doesn't need line of sight), yes?

[@Wo0zy23]

Under the text for heavy obscuration it says specifically that opaque fog can grant it. I take this to mean that magical fog would also be opaque, so targeting anyone in the cloud from outside with a ranged attack would require knowing the target’s position without sight. This could be memory (int check) or using their senses to ascertain position (wis check). It makes sense that the attacks are not at disadvantage because you can’t react to them without seeing them. Just don’t be where you were...and maybe duck.

[@mathieu7921]

I'd like a video like this about more spells. Maybe Suggestion next?

[@KirstenBayes]

One point to add. Opportunity Attacks are made on a creature the attacker can see. With a Fog Cloud up, nobody can see, so people don't need the Disengage action, for example.

[@binolombardi]

With the errata of alert feat, you no longer Grant advantage to creatures who attack you that you cannot see. My warforged war wizard has used this several times to take away advantageous conditions from enemies while gaining defensive benefit The errata to heavy obscurement also means that creatures can gain benefits by standing in fog clouds edge and fighting outward A heavily obscured area-such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage-blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appen- dix A) when trying to see something in that area. The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.

[@S0nyb1ack]

I actually love the idea of fog cloud with a beast master ranger who took a Giant poisonous snake as their companion - they have 10ft of blindsight (and they are one of the few actualy good choises for a beast companion anyway) :) Suddenly your beast companion has advantage on all attacks and all opponent have disadvantage against it (also the situation sounds terrifying - you are engulfed in fog can't see anything, but you know a gient snake is hunting you in it...)

[@Vesztho]

Giant Crab FTW

[@alexandervaucrosson7841]

Blind fighting should now be considered for this

[@corylohanlon]

You've inspired me to make a wizard that takes a fighter dip and takes blind Fighting Style. I'm stoked

[@MrDe1mos]

Great video! I just want to make the point that casting spells is nearly impossible in fog cloud, since wording for the most spells is containing "target/point you can see"

[@M0ebius]

It’s not so much that many DMs get Fog Cloud wrong. It’s that many DMs get the rules on Heavy Obscurement and the Blinded Condition wrong. All being blinded does is give disadvantage to attacks and advantage to enemy attacks, which cancels out when both parties are blinded and they attack normally. And unless someone takes the Hide Action, you know exactly where they are irregardless of vision. There’s no guessing what square they’re in, no Perception checks, or whatever newbie DMs likes to do. I saw this a lot when running the Darkness+Devils Sight combo with Warlocks. The way the rules are also has one counter-intuitive result: you can actually make someone more accurate by blinding everyone if they are currently disadvantaged, for instance when they fire projectiles from long range.

[@Treblaine]

"And unless someone takes the Hide Action, you know EXACTLY where they are irregardless of vision." WHAT? Where in the rules does it say that??!?! Pg 177 of the Player's Handbook only talk about detecting the "presence" of creatures who are unseen. Compare and Contract with how Tremorsense is defined on Pg 7 of the Monster Manual "A monster with tremorsense can detect AND PINPOINT the origin of vibrations within a specific radius" All creatures do not have Tremorsense because of a failed Hide Action or failure to attempt a hide action. The only reason you'd use the Hide Action in a Fog Cloud would be to hide your PRESENCE. As in you put up the fog cloud before any enemies ever saw you, so all they saw was fog. Now you MIGHT want to take an action to attempt to Hide this is just so your enemies don't hear the sounds of adventurer's equipment clattering around in the fog revealing that someone is in the fog. But there's just the sound of adventurers coming from somewhere that must be in the fog. "There’s no guessing what square they’re in, no Perception checks, or whatever newbie DMs likes to do." Newbie DMs? You haven't read the rules on hiding. How can they POSSIBLY know what "square" they are in? Squares don't exist in the world the PCs live in, they're a convenience for the players and DM so people don't forget who is within reach of what weapon attack. They. Cannot. See. How can they know where the creatures are without a sense like tremorsense or straight up cheating? So what if you can easily count the squares... no creature in the game world can do that. "I saw this a lot when running the Darkness+Devils Sight combo with Warlocks." Nope, that IS a ridiculously powerful combination, there is NO WAY that opponents without devil's sight, blindsight, tremorsense or METAGAMING can tell where they should direct their attacks to even attack with disadvantage. All they see is darkness and attacks emanating from it. I hate that combo, it's super disruptive to the rest of the group who don't have devil's sight. What you are doing is houseruling that every creature in your gameworld has the tremorsense ability. "The way the rules are also has one counter-intuitive result: you can actually make someone more accurate by blinding everyone if they are currently disadvantaged, for instance when they fire projectiles from long range." While you can't have "double disadvantage" this is why it's necessary to have a net circumstantial benefit to prevent players searching for ANY advantage to offset a mountain of disadvantages. If you then say "well I'm going to shut my eyes to make this shot as I've got disadvantage anyway" then I'm going to have a private chat with you about how you're being purposefully disruptive in the game. This isn't a physics simulator, it's a simple ruleset to help the game flow smoothly and clearly. You aren't finding a clever loophole in the rules you're clearly breaking the first rule: don't be a dick. If you REALLY want to do something like that, then talk to the GM and maybe they can come up with something, say use inspiration die like the Lucky feat, a "use the force" moment in the adventure, while hanging upside down and the flying bad guy has blur, is at long range and you're poisoned you hear the voice of your old master "use the force, Garketh" you close your eyes and attack roll 2d20 where you'd pick the lowest for disadvantage... and another d20 of your inspiration die. Pick which d20.

[@conradkorbol]

M0ebius also the actual rules say that if you hide or are invisible they have to guess where you are. So that’s not a newbie dm thing. That’s just the rules

[@M0ebius]

PHB 194: “When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see.” The in PHB 195: “If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.” So if you can hear the target, you can attack it with disadvantage. If you can neither see nor hear the target, you guess at the square. For a creature to be both unseen AND unheard requires a Stealth check to Hide, and if you do, the moment you attack you are no longer hidden until you perform another Stealth check. Unfortunately there are no RAW on hearing in the book that I am aware of. Some spells do specify an auditory range, but nothing pertaining to unseen targets. If I am wrong please post the rules, but remember that I am only discussing RAW and I am not interested in debating hypothetical realism.

[@M0ebius]

Conrad Korbol The actual rules indeed does say that about a Hidden creature, not an Invisible creature. You are conflating the two. I have posted the actual rules in question, let me know if you have a different interpretation.

[@conradkorbol]

M0ebius you are correct that when you attack You give away your position, but you can bonus action hide again as a rogue. So yes if you know the square you can track with disadvantage But in fog cloud or invisibility if the target hides and beats your passive perception. You would need to actively search for them. I don’t know the rule, but it talks about in conditions and such. You basically have to guess where creatures are if you can’t hear or see them. Also you would then have to actively search for them with disadvantage.

[@PanSak01]

Great video man! Ok check this out... Swashbuckler within the fog could actually do a sneak attack to one creature each round using the RAKISH AUDACITY feature. He wouldn't need to have advantage to the roll in order to do it if there is no other creature within 5 feet of the target. He then could hide as a bonus action and if the target in his turn moved away he could also use his reaction to deal another sneak attack as an attack of opportunity.

[@TheLeadSuit]

I've been playing a high elf rogue arcane trickster. Picked up find familiar and went with snake (I know the owl is considered the premiere pick but I get towed of the same choices) for it's blindsight capabilities for just this reason

[@smbakeresq]

As a side note as DM, if a player is shooting a “line” weapon like an arrow, bolt or eldritch blast into a fog cloud or other blind fire type situation you should allow the attack (using the original attack roll) to keep going on through attacking all creatures on the vector of flight until it hits one or misses everything. Like the catapult spell in effect. The attack in those cases doesn’t stop until it hits something. If it long range arcing then no, but at normal combat range where you are just letting one of the chain give the players a chance to get lucky.

[@Feelix_music]

I totally used fog a cloud last night to escape guards. We snuck into a big circus tent and we were creeping around in the back and our friend decided to attack one of the animals in a cage so guards came so we had to use the fog cloud to dip out

[@sesimie]

My Lorebard got this because he wields an Instrument of the Bards The Mac-Fuirmidh cittern. I've made my DM rethink entire encounters with Fog Cloud.

[@judemiller]

Wouldn't sneak attack be off the table since the rogue has disadvantage? I know they also have advantage which "cancels out" but it seems ambiguous

[@SpikeRosered]

I use the homebrew rule that if both the attacker and attackee can't see each other the the attacker roles with disadvantage. I honestly feel like the rules regarding obscurement and stealth are pretty undercooked in 5e.

[@jonc.6046]

You missed one small nuance of the rules regarding unseen attackers and targets: If you cannot hear the target, you have to guess its location and automatically miss if it's not there. That means that characters in heavy armor and casters using spells with verbal components are likely to be focus fired. Note too that opportunity attacks are impossible, and disadvantage from making a ranged attack while adjacent to an enemy is mitigated, making it that much easier for enemies to switch to noisy targets.

[@M0ebius]

The glaring problem with stealth in 5E is that there are no rules as far as I know regarding hearing. So unless you cast something like Silence, you would always know the target’s location absent DM fiat, regardless of armor type or verbal component.

[@Meichrob7]

If you had a Homunculus or Familiar outside the fog cloud I’m fairly certain that as long as your senses were linked you’d have advantage on attack rolls against things outside the cloud.

[@seanedgar164]

My dm uses a lot of flanking and multi attacking to get through our high ac's. Not if I fog. As a druid he also gave me a staff of the python which conveniently has blindsight! I plan on taking the Alert feat to boost my defense in those cases and initiative bonus to drop those spells early

[@KingMJAH]

It looks like a common misconception is that fog cloud blinds those in its area. But it doesn’t, it creates an opaque fog that no one can see into or out of, so regardless of if your in the fog or not you can’t see into it. You could use it on your enemies and they wouldn’t be able to see out of the fog, but you couldn’t see into it ether. It always cancels our Advantage/Disadvantage

[@dcyphermanplays8233]

Could I use my bat familiar to see with blind sight and target through it?

[@MsNathanv]

It takes your action to see through it for one turn, so no action-cost targeting (without action surge)-- but bonus action, like misty step, yes.

[@theclown2483]

While blinded, you automatically fail any saving throw that requires the use of sight. Fog Cloud + any AOE spell would be very useful. Even in the same turn if you take two levels in fighter for the action surge.

[@quonomonna8126]

disadvantage on ability checks that require sight means that passive perception is at a -5 to find hidden creatures, so hiding is really easy

[@Joseph-um6wz]

Treantmonk, at 1:00 you say that a 20 foot radius sphere would encompass 64 squares. Isn't the right number 44 squares at the sphere's widest point? It looks to me like a 40' square would cover 64 5x5 game squares, but a 20' radius / 40' diameter circle would only cover 44 game squares. (See DMG, p 251) Thanks!

[@TheCoaIa]

About hiding: does that mean I can use the hide action when noone has line of sight on me, because I am heavily obscured and then just walk past my enemies or even end my turn in front of them without them noticing, as long as I dont attack?

[@GArikoitz98]

If you're blinded can you use your movement to go to a specific direction?

[@corylohanlon]

I'm appreciating how little this actually screws up most parties. Even less if you know about it in session zero and plan to use it often. Any archer, as adv and disadv cancel Any thrown weapon can ignore short range Any melee... they cancel Any AoE, especially point in range Any hazard spell placed at the "safe" side. Bad guys won't see it coming as they exit cloud. Any Druid with a beast form that has special sense Any fighter with blindsense Any grappler or forced movement build Any group with a Cleric with spirit guardians Any summoner There will be combats that not every party member is equally effective. Okay. Your blaster or sharpshooter relying on advantage won't shine every single combat. But if the cloud becomes a hindrance... lifting concentration is no action & it was only a 1st level slot. I'm really excited to use this more often given these epiphanies

[@togotfury]

i often use this spell with my necromancer to enshroud my zombies and cause fear. not the most effective mechanically, but very good for atmosphere. a fog creeps through the town with strange figures moving within it. any citizen or guard who enter the fog are heard screaming.

[@johnl340]

In regards to advantage and disadvantage what if you are attacking from outside the cloud into the cloud?

[@jimithegamer]

The attacker cannot see the target and the target cannot see the attacker so disadvantage+advantage=regular roll

[@fernandohenriqueporto4019]

Yes, please I really want to know that too

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If you can't see the target and the target can't see you (such as if you are outside the cloud and the target is inside) you will have both advantage and disadvantage the same as if you were both in the cloud.

[@fernandohenriqueporto4019]

thank you

[@ianm5782]

You don't mention anything about guessing the targets location. I think this is an important part of the Fog Cloud (and other heavy obscurement effects). Since it's hard to adjudicate exactly where the shooter was aiming (especially if you use miniatures) I make an exception to RAW here and simply use disadvantage for ranged attacks into or out of fog. Like I said - not RAW but I lump this into a category of common sense, easy tweaks.

[@zhoupact8567]

Say. Would you let me see though a fog cloud if I used a warlock's Ghostly Gaze? It says solid objects. However I think it would be a fair thing for it to work on fog.

[@500gmatt6]

That helps but if the the PC and NPC opponent are not in the fog cloud, but are on opposite sides of the cloud, do you have disadvantage to make ranged attacks?

[@laurenzreichelt4911]

Gave one of those fog bottles as a magic item to two young green dragons... it made for a very deadly encounter

[@WarpKL]

My necromancer has 26 skeleton archers, Can they shoot into the fog cloud from out side of it and have advantage on their attack rolls?! as no one is hidden in a fog cloud until they use the hide action.

[@oldsoul3539]

I think the confusion arises because "Hidden" has multiple different layers simultaneously but it gets talked about in a binary true/false way. You failed a stealth roll, but how much information did you actually give away? First there's have you been in some way detected, has some sort of alarm gone off or a message saying there's someone in the building or causing a loud clanging echo that wakes something up, a difference in enemy knowledge or awareness. Second there's do they have your direction which they could tell by briefly seeing or hearing you off in the distance, so moving towards you because "they know you're there" even if they don't know where you are, they think or hope they'll find you once they get there. Thirdly there's knowing exactly where you are but you're behind cover, they just saw you hide behind that lone rock in the middle of the field in which case hiding now means ducking out of sight and keeping quiet. Fourthly they can they hear you but not see you, so running through a fog or while invisible, in which case they can now attack you directly but at disadvantage. Then there's "they didn't know you existed but they turned the corner and they clearly see you out in the open" in which case there's no stealth roll at all due to seeing you clearly but you've have stopped being "hidden" from the enemy in terms of enemy knowledge.

[@xvader9445]

Can you go into detail of how Color Spray and the Sleep spell works as well.During a recent session i used Color Spray on a single target and the DM said it had no effect

[@gale2g]

Awesome video, just in time for a particular wizard build I'm doing that will be more of a sneak mage.

[@nephilimninjaofnibiru2907]

Great work keep it up. Druids changed into earth elemental get tremor sense.

[@MikkoSav123]

No they don't anymore.

[@undrhil]

@@MikkoSav123 They don't?

[@nephilimninjaofnibiru2907]

@@MikkoSav123? My book has it they changed it in reprint?

[@MikkoSav123]

@@undrhil I checked, and I was wrong.. :)

[@MikkoSav123]

@@nephilimninjaofnibiru2907 I didn't remember correctly and made a typo when searching for it on pdf... :)

[@paulcoy9060]

Fog Cloud, the spell, is not like normal fog, with gaps as the winds blow onto the shore. Treat it more like Batman's Smoke Pellets, which can block vision, or an old movie where the fog totally covers the woods so the monster can sneak up on the victim. Also, because D&D is non-Euclidean, remember that a 20' sphere is actually a 20' cube if you are playing on a grid map.

[@GeekNGame]

Since you are blind in a fog cloud, do you have any way of knowing that you are about to strike an ally or enemy? Besides noise, there's no way to differentiate allies from enemies in a blinded situation?

[@M0ebius]

Absent DM fiat there are no rules on hearing. Just going by RAW you know where the targets are irregardless of sight unless you are somehow deafened (Silence or Deafness spells) or the targets take the Hide action.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

The rules don't introduce such complications, but your DM sure might.

[@johngleeman8347]

I'm confused. Two creature's are in the split pea soup of a fog cloud. Both are treated as being blind. How does they each know exactly where the other is until one of them attempts to hide? Sorry for being a dummy.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

No problem, the rules are confusing in this matter. Part of the problem is that it is called the "hide action" when it should be called the "I try to be quiet" action. The idea is that you know the general locaton (not necessarily exactly, just within a 5' area) of someone by the noise they make. Once they stop making noise (through the "hide" action), then you can't hear them anymore as a way of knowing their location. Hope that makes some sense.

[@diegobologni3724]

Fantastic video. I am currently playing a sorlock with absurd rolled stats. dao warlock2, gold dragon sorc 3 through 18, at level 6 gunner feat, level 10 blind fight feat (i'll have proficiency with guns via gunner and with dragon blood is thematic), darkness, fog cloud, devil's sight. I think it'll be fine, and you?

[@Moleje1337]

I'm making a Conquest Paladin Clockwork Soul Sorcerer Goblin with Blindsight I'm keen for Armour of Agathys and Aid to be together on my spell list. Girblots Darkwalker. He will be casting Fog Cloud and Darkness a lot.

[@rafaelpetro7740]

Fog cloud can also make fighting invisible enemies, much easier.

[@lochinvarmcaulay3629]

I play an EK archer who took fog cloud and I use it like a smoke grenade. "My position is compromised! Popping smoke and moving!" Get into a new position, hide and drop concentration. That was until an enemy wizard used gust of wind...

[@timgalivan2846]

I don't understand the benefit of taking the hide action when you are heavily obscured. You say "now they no longer know your location" but that already seems to be the case from heavy obscurement

[@Remaxnolan]

More single subject videos please!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I'll certainly mix some in, glad you liked it!

[@DrunkenIsley]

would fog cloud be a reasonable situation to use passive stealth? How I envision it is characters good at stealth may fall into being stealthy out of habit and so be hard to notice as soon as the conditions required for stealth become available.

[@PopcornBunni]

So what I'm gathering from this is Blind Fighting Eldritch Knight fog clouds the battlefield to get exclusive combat advantage to themself.

[@SamSam-ke9zy]

How does minor illusion differ than fog cloud? Casting an illusion , say a wall, to block attackers from seeing your character. I hear it provides cover, but it doesn't block anything from going through it like actual cover.

[@Arrakiz666]

If you create an illusion of a solid wall, it would block all ranged spells and all ranged attacks in the exact same way a real wall would, until you pass the check to inspect it and figure out it's an illusion.

[@keeganmbg6999]

Quick Question Chris. You only mentioned Blindsight, wouldn’t Tremorsense also work?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yes, I think it would.

[@micahiwaasa9304]

I was playing a Devil's Sight warlock, and my party had a ranger with Fog Cloud. No matter how many sessions, DM and player alike never got used to the idea of no advantage(ous die roll) being gained by sightless offenders attacking sightless victims. I'm so sick of it that I might never play another Devil's Sight character.

[@RokuroCarisu]

It just works. No, wait... That was King Crimson. ;p

[@crunter4270]

"ANGRY TIME CANCELLING NOISES"

[@murtamp9828]

If you cast fog cloud in a tight corridordo you calculate the volume of the cloud and the hall and subtract?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

No, the areas that are unavailable are simply removed from the effect. 1e works the way you describe tho.

[@murtamp9828]

@@TreantmonksTemple thats disappointing because after doing the math if you are in a 5x5x5 passage you could effect 265 squares at 1st lv.

[@a.spirit8408]

Can a character inside a fog cloud target a character outside the fog cloud with ranged attacks (longbow, fire bolt)? What about inside a Darkness spell?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

See my pinned comment for an answer to this, common question! Darkness works basically the same.

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

I always rule that you don't get advantage against a creature that can't see you if you also can't see them. Rules as written you are right, but as it makes no sense realistically I change it

[@TreantmonksTemple]

You don't get advantage. That advantage is lost because you can't see either.

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

@@TreantmonksTemple rules as written, you get advantage because you are unseen to them, but you get disadvantage because you can't see them, which nullifies and results in neither. I personally rule it that if you attack someone that can't you, you aren't considered an unseen attacker if you yourself can't see them, thus, if two people are in fog cloud trying to attack each other, both would have disadvantage. This is my ruling, not RAW

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@geoffreyperrin4347 Yes, this is a pretty common houserule, and I agree it makes sense.

[@nburo]

In a game, my PC (wizard) used web successfully on the enemy boss so the boss used fog cloud to cancel most of the debuffs. Great use. Quick question, what about people outside the cloud attacking people inside (or on the other side) the fog. Does it give any advantage or disadvantage?

[@undrhil]

No, because while you are not blinded since you aren't inside the fog cloud, you are shooting into a heavily obscured area, so you have the same penalties

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It works exactly the same, since you still can't see each other, so you both have advantage and disadvantage, which cancel out.

[@johnl340]

Description actually is very vague on what exactly happens to vision or status effects. Then need to be more specific. What happens if you attack from range outside the cloud? Or cast a fireball.

[@smbakeresq]

You are targeting something you can’t see, so the attack is at disadvantage. You also have to guess the square or location they are in. Fireball works normally except you can’t see the origin point, you have to just guess when you want it to go off.

[@jimithegamer]

It says that if you try to see something inside the cloud you are treated as blinded. Also if you were to throw a fireball inside it would behave normally (creatures inside would get a dexterity saving throw with no advantage or disadvantage)

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If you attack from outside the cloud to something inside the cloud, you have both advantage (because they can't see you) and disadvantage (because you can't see them) so it ends up the same as if you were both in the cloud. Since fireball doesn't require an attack roll (just placement) it would work just fine.

[@ChristnThms]

You assume in your discussion, that both enemies and allies are within the cloud. But, like Darkness or Sleet Storm or many other persistent area of effect spells, wouldn't you want to place this spell where it covers enemies and NOT allies? I mean, I think of this normally as a way to suppress enemy ranged attackers. With the long duration, it could even be used preemptively before combat begins, to force the enemy to close to melee range right from the start. Combine this with something like Spike Growth, and you can effectively force the enemy to move forward through damage, or sit back and just take hits. It's true, that in a vacuum, Fog Cloud isn't spectacular. But it teams well with other group features, if you need to suppress ranged attackers.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I used to think that's how it worked (and common sense would suggest that too, and it's a common house rule), but with the rules as written, if you put enemy archers in a fog cloud (even if you aren't in the fog cloud), then they can't see you, and you can't see them, so advantage and disadvantage cancel out. If you aren't hidden from them (ie take the hide action), then they know your location and can shoot you without disadvantage (or advantage).

[@ChristnThms]

@@TreantmonksTemple everyone inside the cloud has disadvantage in all attacks (blinded). But the PHB specifies that the DM doesn't have to tell you if the location you target (because you can't see) is the correct location. IF it's the correct location, you have disadvantage. But you may be rolling to attack an empty square, and the book specifically states that the DM doesn't need to tell you that. Now, you can do a Perception check. For most characters though, that is an action, leaving only a BA. If the target moves before the next turn, you might still attack an empty square. So suppressing ranged attackers should be very effective, as long as you don't stand still the whole time. If I were attacking INTO a fog cloud, I'd be using area effects anyway. And since it is a concentration spell, any time the cloud becomes a hassle, it can be dropped.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@ChristnThms "the PHB specifies that the DM doesn't have to tell you if the location you target (because you can't see) is the correct location." TIL! Can you point me in the direction of this? I want to read for myself, my understanding was that you needed to use stealth to mask your location.

[@ChristnThms]

@@TreantmonksTemple think it's 169. Combat section, on unseen attacks.

[@comrad3question982]

Doesn’t the blinded condition assume that the attacker can see without issue?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Why? Can't 2 people both be blinded at the same time?

[@SamSam-ke9zy]

Being blind leaves a person unable to defend naturally. Like walking into a door in the dark. The door doesn't even attack, you just aren't able to stop it from hitting you.

[@comrad3question982]

Treantmonk's Temple If a creature is blinded, it’s assumed that attackers are not thus granting advantage to hit. In a fog cloud, since the attacker is also blinded, they wouldn’t get the advantage to hit and have to roll at disadvantage.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@comrad3question982 The idea is that an attack while blind will be less accurate but not be dodged, blocked or parried. So you have a disadvantage and an advantage combined, so they cancel out - at least that is the rules. DM's are free to houserule, I'm not defending the rules, just pointing out what they are.

[@SilvyParadox]

From what I read sneak attack doesn't work in fog cloud because you have disadvantage on the attack regardless if it's canceled out by an advantage or not. Or is there an exception to this rule?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Not an exception, if your disadvantage is cancelled, then you don't have disadvantage. It's like your cable subscription, if you cancel your subscription, you don't have cable anymore.

[@SilvyParadox]

@@TreantmonksTemple amazing I apperantly didn't read the rules carefully enough "If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20", too bad one of my GMs banned me from playing rogue because I "overutilized" stealth and flank advantages

[@jeffdietz630]

Fighting style blindfight would allow it I think.

[@alantbaird]

I'm still a little confused. If one subject is within a fog cloud but another isn't does one of them gain advantage on the other? A creature is blinded when 'trying to see something in that area' does that mean a creature is considered blind when trying to see something that is located within a fog cloud, or that it's considered blind while trying to see something while the creature itself is located within the fog cloud?

[@undrhil]

If one, either, or both objects are in a fog cloud, the blinded condition applies to each object being perceived or doing the perceiving.

[@alantbaird]

@@undrhil Ah right, so it's both. What about if neither are actually inside it but the fog cloud is between two subjects?

[@jordanflutes]

@@alantbaird same concept, they can't see one another

[@undrhil]

@@alantbaird you are trying to see through an area of heavy obscurememt...

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It is no different than if both were in the cloud. If you can't see your target, and they can't see you, you have both advantage and disadvantage which cancel out. Straight up attack.

[@toast5ad]

Wait.. so if a creature is inside a fog cloud and hasn't used a stealth action to be hidden, that means they are still visable to anyone. So if a Player outside of fog cloud makes a ranged attack against the creature inside, shouldn't the player on the outside get advantage because he/she isn't blinded and the creature inside fog cloud is blinded?

[@toast5ad]

I understand @Treantmonk's Temple made a comment discussing this, but I don't understand why the creature on the outside cant see the creature on the inside when he stated himself everyone inside smoke cloud is seen unless they pass a stealth check.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

The important distinction here is that, "knows where you are", and "Can see you" are not the same thing.

[@smbakeresq]

Fog Cloud is a very underrated spell. You can just blast away in it. For line effects they go through it until they hit something, I let that apply to arrows and such also. As a DM, dumb creatures like a troll probably just go to the last place they saw a PC, smart ones might know a fog cloud for a what it and pick a direction away from PCs and then use the edges to get the drop on PCs. In general PCs should probably just retreat to attack positions and ready actions as they come out.

[@arsarma1808]

smbakeresq negative. A lot of blasts require you to see the origin point and won’t function at all when you’re blinded.

[@smbakeresq]

ArsArma no, blast doesn’t exist, see page 204-205. As far as point of origin, yes, it’s a point you can see. It’s also on page 204-205. See however isn’t defined, and if you are blind technically you have no point you can see therefore that spell is forbidden to you. That’s absurd to me, a seeing PC can cast the spell in vector even though they might not know what it hits. Look I get the Eldritch Blast cult. But is just goes in a direction from the caster. You can just shoot it out blindly.

[@arsarma1808]

@@smbakeresq No, blasts, as in the terms for damaging spells, often require you to see the point. Check the individual spells.

[@smbakeresq]

ArsArma those terms are completely ignored by the RAW crowd, they are too restrictive. While I agree with you in some cases, the word blast has no effect, and since see isn’t defined either it means nothing. Look RAW, unless you take a Hide Action RAW, they will know right where you are RAW. Therefore they can almost always “see” you. It’s they way it is. Regardless, I would let you blind fire or pick a point of origin.

[@smbakeresq]

What’s even worse IMO, you can use the hide action in a Fog Cloud, as it’s heavy obscurement. However the cloud itself provides no bonus, so being in cloud allows you to make the check but being 35’ in a Fog Cloud provides no bonus to stealth.

[@Clanjade22]

Thanks, I know a lot of people run this “wrong” unknowingly, I as a dm do not agree with rules as written so choose to play it different. Pretty much if you are blinded you will have disadvantage to attack, sure I know where that light switch is, but I am gonna fumble around to find it, and the light switch isn’t even trying to avoid me, let alone make it past a shield and find the weak spot in the armor. If it’s a ranged attack I roll some type of % to see if you hit the right square, both shooting in or shooting out. I know this is not how rules as written are, but it makes more sence to me. It basically give the advantage to the defender, do darkness same way, will do same if both are blinded same way. I have been toying with saying movement is half speed, unless choose not to, and based on terrain, you have a good chance of tripped over a rut, a stump, a raised sidewalk, what ever. Thanks for vids, it’s good to know how it is supposed to work, so you can make it clear how you might run it differently.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Nothing wrong with a common-sense houserule here.

[@stevesmith4600]

I think you left out the scenario of casting this in a manner in which you're in the cloud, but the enemies aren't, and vice versa. These range vs range / caster vs caster scenarios with one group covered inside the cloud and the other group outside of the cloud, this tends to be the optimal way to use this spell.

[@undrhil]

"Hey! Someone is over there in that fog cloud!" "I got it ... no problem... fireball!"

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Since each side cannot see each other, you are still applying both advantage and disadvantage, which cancel out.

[@stevesmith4600]

@@TreantmonksTemple Yeah. Usually how I've seen people use this in range vs range is that they cast fog cloud to cover themselves. Then, on their turn, they can use half their movement to walk out of the cloud, removing the blind condition, attack at range, and use their remaining movement to re-enter the cloud to no longer be seen. If the DM interprets that "not being seen" also requires the "hide" action, then the fog cloud goes on the enemies. This way, unless they move, they're blinded and have disadvantage. Unless they are using their action to hide, you can see them and have advantage. (I usually don't see the GM forcing this interpretation, as typically they rule that creatures can't see inside the cloud (period); thus hide is not enforced. So if hide isn't needed, fog cloud and the pop-in / pop-out provides the best tactical advantage. If hide if needed, fog cloud on the enemy is better, since you can still attack the enemy, unless they are using their actions to hide (which typically means they're not attacking you).

[@M0ebius]

Steve Smith The obvious counter to that tactic is to hold action. But since hold action only grants 1 attack you very well could still gain value playing peekaboo against enemies with multi-attack. However the enemies can also just walk into the cloud and attack normally, negating the advantage /disadvantage.

[@philosopherhobbs]

You are wrong about heavily obscured areas. The rule for heavily obscured areas is the most idiotic thing about D&D because there is no single rule that COULD work and make sense for darkness, fog and dense foliage. But back to the rule (that you have proved is the most misunderstood rule). It does not say 'everyone inside the cloud is effectively blinded' it says 'when trying to see something IN that area'. Being in the area does not make you suffer the blind effect (that would make seeing out of darkness make no sense). You are effectively blinded when the thing you are trying to see is in the heavily obscured area, which makes sense for darkness. So someone in a heavily obscured area can see something outside of that area, which doesn't make sense for dense fog but it does for darkness. Therefore, trying to attack something in the fog cloud has disadvantage. Another reason this rule is dumb is that the first sentence of the rule says that heavily obscured areas block vision entirely, which makes it sound like you can't see something on the other side of (say) fog or see out of fog, but that would be completely idiotic for darkness as you can of course see through darkness to a lit area on the other side. Like I said, this rule is completely broken and so easily fixed I can't imagine why they don't fix it.

[@coldfusion230]

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to stealth with fog cloud. If a rogue can cunning action stealth, they cannot get sneak attack in a fog cloud since they have disadvantage (can't see). They won't get advantage for being stealthed either since again disadvantage cancels it.

[@jimithegamer]

But they can attack and then immediately hide and move. That way when it's the enemy turn they would be difficult to be attacked because the enemy has no idea where they are.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If the enemy doesn't know your location, they can't attack you at all, way better than disadvantage!

[@M0ebius]

In the case if Fog Cloud the Rogue can only activate sneak attack against someone next to an ally or as a Swashbuckler. But if you satisfy those conditions you can attack with impunity, especially if you have something like Booming Blade.

[@gxbmb]

if everyone is blind wouldnt all attacks be at disadvantage?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

No, because the blinded condition gives disadvantage to attack and advantage to be attacked. When you have both advantage and disadvantage then they cancel out, so the attacks are straight up. Having everyone at disadvantage is a common house rule though. I'm just reporting the rules as they are written

[@mantis3669]

You can get the Wish spell the same level you get a feat. Would you let a player play a campaign as a V.human W/ war caster, hit 16, pick the wish spell, cast wish to change race to high elf, then pick the war caster feat? like it matters at that point?

[@johnl340]

So those that are in the fog cloud have to wander blindly to get out of it? Gee if that is the case you could just fog cloud level 5 , fireball fireball fireball...... DEATH

[@bacchus8081]

Just wondering, do people think that it's an oversight that Truesight doesn't work on Fog Cloud or working as intended? Personally i would argue that if you can look into the Ethereal Plane then you can probably also look through a bit of water damp.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It might have been, not sure.

[@badwrongfun5541]

Yeah it's not a spell I'd think of taking on my own but I'm playing a Triton in my next game. So I get the spell for free and at least wanna make good use of it. Luckily I wanted to give my bard Expertise in Stealth anyway.

[@psusac]

I don't think Rogues can ever sneak attack in a fog cloud. The rules state "You don't need advantage on the Attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't Incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the Attack roll." In a fog cloud you DO have disadvantage on the roll, even if that disadvantage has been cancelled out by advantage. So...

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

Yes they can. The rules state, "If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20." So even though they 'have' disadvantage, when it cancels out, they are considered to have nothing and can sneak attack.

[@psusac]

@@RavenWolfStarcraft2 Ok, I'll buy that. Thanks.

[@Porphyrogenitus1]

Make videos in character as Red or as your top mage PC.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I don't know how that would go over

[@Porphyrogenitus1]

@@TreantmonksTemple You'll never know if you don't try!

[@kevinboles3885]

I'm sure this has been said in the comments, but BLINDED in my world means you can't see ANYTHING. Full Stop. There is no I have disadvantage, they have advantage, hide-shmide. First 5 words in the PHB Appendix A: Conditions rules for Blinded: A blinded creature can’t see...

[@kevinboles3885]

I will note that it isn't just TT saying this. So I REALLY would like to know how we get from "A Blinded creature can't see" to ANY form of interaction that requires sight.

[@SamSam-ke9zy]

I believe a hidden creature can not move at full movement, they must move at half speed to remain stealthy phb pg 182

[@TreantmonksTemple]

You are refering to the overland movement, which is not combat movement. The reason it does not apply to combat (besides it saying it applies to movement periods lasting one minute or longer) is it is assuming a narrative of not only moving quietly, but taking a route that allows the characters to be unseen, taking time to check for enemies, etc. For combat movement, there is no restriction on movement after taking the hide action. I've seen lots of tables use houserules on stealthy movement though, I'm just pointing out that they are playing either with a houserule, or they are unaware of the actual rules on combat movement.

[@minivergur]

Finally, I get it

[@Treblaine]

Sure attacks may be unadjusted... but as a GM i straight up won't let you attack someone with a ranged weapon. The rules on spell say you need line of sight, the same implicitly applies for ranged weapon attacks. Can't have the absurd situation where the Warlock with eldrich blast can't hit someone in a fog cloud but someone with a crossbow still can. A crossbow should be MORE dependant on sight, having something to aim at, than the magic provided by a Otherworldly Patron.

[@M0ebius]

It makes sense, but isn’t RAW.

[@Treblaine]

​@@M0ebius Yet without doing it that way tremorsense is identical to normal senses. It should take tremorsense to be able to tell where someone is just by the sound of their footsteps to such a high degree you could aim at and shoot them. I don't care what the rules say, I'm not going to let every sapient creature in the game effectively have tremorsense. There's a MASSIVE difference between a perception check to notice someone is ANYWHERE nearby and be so sure of where they are you can shoot at them with a crossbow as reliably as if you could see them plainly. That's what stealth vs perception opposed checks should be when sneaking into a place, avoid anyone hearing the distinctive sounds of movement (clattering armour, dragging feet, deep breathing) but that just tells you the rough direction the sound came from. It's JUST detection, you MUST be able to see them to attack them. If you WERE to stealth in a fog cloud, all that could possibly change is they don't hear the sound of you moving, but logically just because they didn't hear you move doesn't mean you definitely didn't move. Might be useful if they first saw the fog as a natural/mundane phenomenon and didn't know you were there, if you ran in the smoke they'd hear footsteps and indicate someone was SOMEWHERE in the fog cloud. If you want to pick a random square, to shoot where you think they are, take the shot but don't bother telling me the modifiers I'll only let you hit on a natural 20. Because skill is irrelevant, they aren't dodging attacks, you aren't aiming for a particular spot.

[@M0ebius]

Treblaine Yes it makes total sense and I don’t particularly disagree with any of your points. My table play by strict RAW as we rotate DMs and place consistent ruling over realism, so I am just pointing out the actual rules. But strictly from a gaming perspective, the RAW ruling makes situations like this go MUCH faster.

[@Treblaine]

@@M0ebius Well, 5e isn't a "physics simulator" like 3e/pathfinder. It'll get you most of the way there but at some point you've got to use the rules to help arbitrate the game... not allow the rules to make a nonsense reality. This isn't like "you can concentrate on two spells" sort of homebrew, this isn't saying "nope I'm going to nerf the feat you jsut chose" this is preventing the game seeming cheap and broken from things acting totally contrary to the only way they could work.

[@M0ebius]

Treblaine Personally I would rule that both the Warlock and the Bowman can fire as normal inside Fog Clouds if only because of pacing.