The Future of Melee

[@Fthan]

27 minutes of pure hot technical fire

[@ghmasterjj]

I feel like im in a Harvard lecture hall

[@Blu_Jay23]

I don't 100% understand all the technical side of this. But its quite interesting to me

[@SpectreXS]

The Z Jump "controversy" is funny. Imagine throwing a fit over a digital-to-digital button remap, while there are controllers that literally cheat for you (goomwaves) and are tournament-legal.

[@youtuberobbedmeofmyname]

z jump is so stupid why would you intentionally nerf your z button? lol

[@OvercaffinatedAnimeGirl]

I thought those were banned

[@dinospumoni663]

You can think two different things are cheating at the same time, you know.

[@MOXXXEN]

I asked if any mods were available to remove tap jump as I hate my up-tilt being inconsistent. Lets just say I should not have done that.

[@JustLikeYou.]

@@MOXXXENlmao the controller “controversy” within the melee scene has intrigued me for years

[@nathanmadox3364]

the community deserves to play on vanilla

[@PoorStargazer]

With controllers as prizes for super majors

[@danterobledo322]

as vanilla as it can be, the consol mistreated versions and sent many playstyles and game sessions into a seamless bothersome autopilot shenanigans that many wish to bypass to view and host 20xx. as much as vanilla slaps, and luigi is annoying, and link can land nutty combos, and chain grabs can be available, I am in remembrance of a mortalcombat-type chaotic trash and I think we as a community can handle vanilla when an available mod is up.

[@andrewferguson6901]

Items on

[@woobiehastelly]

Hax is like, "Hey fellas, let's try to find a compromise!" And then the Melee community is like, *HISSSS~*

[@nahometesfay1112]

A lot of people are trying to find a compromise

[@scythermantis]

Free Hax Free Melee

[@kmochi-]

if only he hadn't made so many insane unfounded statements and kept his head down, he could have been a strong competitor today

[@GSEleven]

​@@kmochi-Very true, but like if he could have been issued a temporary ban for his actions (because years long switching to forever simply because every T.O. got together and felt like it, is crazy), he could also be a competitor today.

[@AL-lh2ht]

@@GSEleven The narrative changes when you learn during the entire ban period he was telling TO's in private he still stands by his original videos. That is why Hax was only partially unbanned instead of outright banned.

[@GSEleven]

@@AL-lh2ht Naw, that only makes it slightly worse for me. While I don't like taking people's word for it so I'll look into that claim, let's say hypothetically that's true. He wasted his breath lying about it, walking back what he said several times, and admitting that he actually doesn't disagree with what he said. That's bad, but he doesn't deserve a ban for that, but for making the video with controversial suggestions about Leffen with little evidence or deep reaches. You can ban people when they do something wrong, not being annoying. Even then, that ban shouldn't be permanent because he didn't assault someone, he didn't steal anything, he didn't stalk anyone. He is more banned than people than committed actual crimes while playing Smash competitively. He compiled what he viewed as evidence for something that made sense to him. If he was viewed as mentally unstable for that, fair enough but give him some time to work on himself and come back after explicitly outlining why he's banned. They had no problem leaking his address, but not once did I SEE (personally) any T.O. mention that he spoke about standing by his original video as the reason he's still banned. At the end of the day, it's also their tournaments so they can ban who they like right? Yeah, only if I were running a tournament and I didn't like how you played, that is in the same boat as banning you for being annoying.

[@ktol8042]

Free hax Ban b0xx

[@burgerchild]

I really like point made at 16:41. 1.03 is better because it aims to solve real problems while reducing the amount of "community game design".

[@LHSMeleeClub]

The melee-tism between both hax and anti-boxxers is incredibly strong.

[@JobuuLive]

Its unreal that the Melee community hasnt just ran tournaments with the remap and fixes for controllers so ass backwards thinking to not impliment this stuff.

[@chungusamongus519]

Especially with how agressive and dismissal Nintendo is towards the community.

[@midnightspctrum]

And have all of our events shut down by Nintendo? We will let you know when we need advice from a anime pfp

[@rokkalombardi2196]

We are at the mercy of Nintendo allowing us to operate and they can restrict it at any time. It would be nice to modernize melee in some ways but it isn't that simple.

[@pkness5220]

@@midnightspctrum anime pfp stray in 2024 🥲🙏

[@iwannabethekid34xc]

@@midnightspctrum go watch Hasan kid

[@spacejambluray2591]

I don’t understand why we’ve come to the conclusion that melee was not created perfectly for how we play the game hence ucf but there’s still hesitation to actually fix the mechanics that plague the current community. Like sure these are not the biggest deal but we’ve already come so far why half ass it?? Especially if it makes gcc more competitive with box without making it an objectively worse controller. Glad you’re back to cookin as usual

[@fugi_the_fugi]

Hax deserves a nobel prize for this shit, only bad thing about this is the Gamecube Console "incompatibility", but tbf most tournaments and people on console do play on a Wii and not a Gamecube tho

[@Throwaway-p2p]

Hax, if you want to seriously support melee's longevity, you should be advocating for a full decompilation of the source code. I appreciate and support your efforts with the BOXX but I feel that the security of the game is not guaranteed unless the source code for the game itself is in the hands of the community.

[@marquistf1996]

What does this mean. I’ve never heard of it before

[@chungusamongus519]

His hands broke lol he is committed to being able to play again.

[@pkness5220]

isn't there ongoing efforts to do this but it is just really hard?

[@morganlak4337]

What do you think could happen specifically? And how would a decomp prevent it? I'd love a decomp too, but your comment is worded in a very ominous and unclear way

[@rumfordc]

its already been decompiled, that's how a lot of the technical details and mods were figured out. now what? we still don't own the code.

[@matiasmoreno3562]

And Here i am playing Slippi with ps4 controller ( xbox 360 until i destroyed the analog ) doing superwavedashes and zoomy goomies.

[@tflp1950]

Is ur handle just "PS4 Controller" by any chance?

[@vegaplus420]

@@tflp1950 he not da guy zain played

[@matiasmoreno3562]

@@tflp1950 i dunno what you mean xD lol

[@Zaiko116]

The worst thing to play Melee is that thing, I don't know how you can play with that, I want to know what your button configuration is

[@brovriscoolvriscool5277]

YOOOOO me too(except I cant do any movement tech)

[@Leafygreens48]

hey all scott here

[@buddhatraveleroftheburning4102]

I appreciate the hard work and respect for the long form informational video. You're a staple of the melee community

[@ajko000]

I recently switched to Z Jump as a way of nerfing myself against my friends who I often play with. Just a bit of fun, but I also know that objectively, it's more optimal and more ergonomic in the long run as well. It didn't take that long to adjust and I don't understand the stigma. How is it any different from claw other than the fact that it's just more ergonomic? People claw all the time. The purist mentality creates stagnation and encourages (for lack of a better word) dangerous workarounds. I had to adjust my timings as well because the expeditiousness I've conditioned myself to have out of necessity when using my single thumb for basic JC shines and beyond put into my head a timing that isn't actually as fast as it feels. 1.03 does seem like the objectively better solution at least from the perspective of embedding QoL changes and controller changes into the game.

[@SpacepoetYT]

As someone whos been casually using L-jump since brawl and CONSTANTLY trying to convert my friends to no avail... this gave me life.

[@RexPerfection]

yo tell me more this sounds mad interesting. ive been playing slippi on default controls and i feel like some tech feels impossible with x/y jump

[@SpacepoetYT]

@@RexPerfection I've been using L trigger so that all of my movement is controlled with left hand. You could do Z instead, like they talk about in this video for melee, but I prefer L trigger. With this set up you can jump, aerial drift with the control stick in one direction, and input an aerial in the opposite direction, all at the same time without moving your hands, among other possibilities. C stick aerials + L jump is such an easy short hop game once you get the feel for it

[@RexPerfection]

@@SpacepoetYT thats a game changer, wow. did u just change the button mappings in the dolphin settings to do it? and do u have any controller mods to make it easier? springs/analog shoulders sounds like they would get in the way

[@SpacepoetYT]

@@RexPerfection sorry, what I'm talking about is from brawl forward with controller remapping native to those games. In this video however they talk about some kind of hardware mod to make it possible with z, tho I've never tried it. The concept should be the same tho, if you play brawl smash 4 or ultimate it's a godsend, otherwise I'm sure you could swap the controls in slippi, not 100% tho. And as far as springs go, for GC controllers, you can hard mod the trigger that you wanted to jump with to remove the spring, would probably be the same as the shield mod they talk about in this video too, where you just take out the spring to reduce trigger travel time

[@Nexpeon]

yeah I remapped jump to L on slippil, I dont think id be much interested in the game otherwise tbh its a blessing on the hands

[@Udhdvdhdjiwisjshzjfjfbdududjd]

I watched the whole thing understanding maybe 30% of it. Liked and subscribed.

[@gregheredia1687]

As purely a longtime melee spectator I think we all need to get on board with making melee predictable. I want to see the game keep evolving. I want to see everyone squeeze every last drop out of what's possible.

[@michaelsweeney596]

The greatest mind in smash is banned from tournaments :(

[@mleszyn]

The fact that a button remapping like z-jump is so controversial is unbelievable. As if remapping wasn't just a standard these days. Common melee L.

[@ronkle_dunkle667]

the issue isnt the remapping itself, its the accessibility issues of getting this button remap. the gccphob, the tool that allows button remapping among other advantages, on average, costs ~$120. if button remapping didnt cost this amount of money- no one would care. having a pretty sizeable competitive advantage over another player just because you payed more is stupid. or maybe your comment was ragebait idk

[@Krix08]

@@ronkle_dunkle66722:28 :D

[@saintyoo]

​​​​@@ronkle_dunkle667 how is this relevant on a video about software fixes?

[@ronkle_dunkle667]

@saintyoo in the current state of competitive melee, the only way of having z jump is thru hardware. 1.03 isnt used in tournaments

[@saintyoo]

@@ronkle_dunkle667Are you saying the melee community is fine with z button remapping if it was implemented in ucf and alternatives?

[@SuperSeaguard]

Why is Hax not in charge of this committee at this point? The man spends his nights and days contemplatively mulling this shit over only to be dismissed by the community at large.

[@iwannabethekid34xc]

@@SuperSeaguard banned and driven to a suicide attempt also.

[@AL-lh2ht]

because he managed to burn every bridge he had in the community.

[@SuperSeaguard]

@@AL-lh2ht is there a video I can watch on this? I’ve seen the Super Smash Brothers documentary, but this seems like more recent events

[@jakegripss]

Keep making more videos Hax!!

[@feelsokayman5656]

the GOAT of melee

[@TylerHyperFace]

@@feelsokayman5656 THIS I can get behind

[@RyanEdwardsVA]

Super interesting stuff. Here's to hoping for a bright future for melee.

[@Malurth]

hax you have to put the chapter timestamps before the chapter name for it to work right

[@doq]

You mentioned that some of these fixes require a Wii to be stealthed. What happens on a GC that breaks this stealth?

[@Chaos_Lemon]

I come from a rhythm game background and always found it interesting that people want to keep b0xx banned because of the advantages it has. It feels very reminiscent of the DDR "using the bar is cheating" argument. Which would later turn to "modding pads so the sensors can actually function properly and removing corner brackets or countersinking them so you're not stepping on legos" is cheating. Any top player would look at this argument as silly and only done by oldheads who can't adapt to the current DDR meta. On the other hand, you don't bring whole DDR machine pads to tournaments you attend, so when you do play you're all on the same setup, something that can't be done in melee. But then again there are also remote tournaments where you can play on your home setup anyway. Idk maybe its just a difference of cultures or something.

[@dampinpoe1]

Good stuff hax :)

[@jellybox9649]

What's the difference between using z jumb and claw for jump? I use my index finger on Y to jump, so does that mean I'm basically using Z jump?

[@rasha1a]

Ergonomics. Claw uses a motion of your finger that engages more muscles leading to greater strain and fatigue on an already hard working hand. Z jump lets you rest your pointer on the Z button and lets you use good hand posture reducing over all wear on the hand muscles.

[@rasha1a]

Not standardizing 1.03 is Big Controller’s way of keeping control over the melee player base. Resist! The decision makers in the rules making committee are in bed with controller manufacturers. I bought a PhoB from a local guy just to enjoy reliable inputs that 1.03 makes a universal standard to all OEM players. The difference is night and day. Breathe life back into melee! vote 1.03! Free Melee!!

[@surfingraichu7594]

All looks good but a full button remap should be implemented instead of forcing people to play standard or optimal, something like hold a button for 2 seconds->controller rumbles->press button you want to swap move with (assuming it should stay hidden from Nintendo).

[@dmullen1994]

the tradgedy of melee is that hax was always our goat

[@J0_n_0]

If we remap button layouts can we turn off tap jump too pls and ty

[@NarokathCrimzonAE]

Absolute goldmine

[@_WiZ420]

This entire circumstance and situation continues to sit in just that type of way with me😂

[@MicrowavedFurby]

I've played his version of Melee and it's honestly great. If nothing else, just being able to consistently dash out of a crouch on an OEM controller makes it worth it. You guys need to stop being babies. This isn't going to fundamentally change the game. It just fixes some inconsistencies/oversights on a 23 year old game and lets you remap buttons.

[@FordFourD-aka-Ford4D]

I appreciate your use of the term *intellectual property* to describe your innovations. Thank you for your contributions.

[@raghavpatel720]

Easier wavedashes and ledgedashes through such mechanical engineering can't be something that everyone would get behind

[@shuriken4573]

Hey Hax, I understand the frustration with coordinate fuzzing and I agree it isn't the way to fix the box. However 'true RNG' is not 'the very definition of an anti-competitive change.' Many games rely on RNG to be competitive in the first place I.E. basically all card games. I think coordinate fuzzing is bad because it is unnecessary. As long as the broken coordinates are banned the biggest strength of the box isn't really the precision. The box's bigger strength is being able to distribute the buttons to more fingers. On a GCC I use 2 fingers on my left hand and 3 on my right, half of how many I get to use on a box. This greatly increases the speed at which I can perform inputs and is clearly the defining competitive advantage of the box. I'm not really sure if it is even possible to bring these 2 completely different controllers to competitive parity as it stands.

[@verbatim7508]

RNG is a "necessary evil," but it's still evil. If we cannot eliminate it from a game, it should absolutely be minimized to the fullest extent possible. Yes even card games.

[@shuriken4573]

​@@verbatim7508 No, not really. RNG allows for great skill expression in the right circumstances. Saying 'RNG is a necessary evil' is reductionist. There are good and bad implementations. Using RNG to hedge losses and push wins can be extremely skill intensive. Understanding statistics is the primary skill check of many games.

[@verbatim7508]

@@shuriken4573 Skill "expression" shouldn't matter as much as skill. The better player should always win no matter what. Anything in a game that impedes the better player from winning is a bad design choice, unless you are designing a party game

[@shuriken4573]

@@verbatim7508 @verbatim7508 skill doesn't exist without the means to express it. The reality is if you can't demonstrate your skill you have none. The better player should not always win no matter what, the person that plays better should win more often. A great example of this is Magnus Carlson vs Hikaru Nakamura. Their classical record is Magnus 14 - Hikaru 1 with 28 draws. Magnus is clearly 'the better player' but on that one day Hikaru beat Magnus despite being the 'worse' player. No RNG required Magnus made a bad capture with his knight and the game was over in less than 20 moves. The 'better player' should not always win, all that matters is who plays better in the moment. Phil Hellmuth is considered the best poker player in the world with 17 WSOP bracelets. The only skills tested in poker are statistics and reads. Dude still manages to consistently make top cut . Everyone gets dealt bad hands, understanding how to lose as little as possible to them is just as important as leveraging good hands. Understanding statistics is an important skill in games and life. Saying randomness has no place in competition is disingenuous. Everything in this universe is statistically driven and trying to weed that out is impossible.

[@shuriken4573]

​@@verbatim7508 because I am a fool I was prepping a pretty long response but the tldr is: There is no skill if you can't demonstrate it. The person that plays better should win, not 'the better player' (see Magnus 14 vs Hikaru 1 with 28 draws). Well done randomness is a mechanic that allows skill to dictate the outcome I.E poker. If you disagree cool but I'm done thinking about this comment section, have a nice day.😊

[@tpf92]

As someone looking in every once in a while, I find it hypocritical that physical mods (Specifically, notches for analog sticks) for controllers seem to be fine but box controllers aren't.

[@taher6969]

why do people hate hax again?

[@MrHeartofCyanide]

Evidence.zip

[@banditcroco9014]

Swedish liar

[@Rez_97]

Dark triad

[@CorteX1988]

Nobody does. If your perception of Hax is based on 1 mistake during a small period of time where he was facing mental health issues instead of the literal decades this man has spent helping the community you might want to reevaluate if you're not just malicious and riding the hate train deliberately.

[@cameronmason4452]

@@CorteX1988 1 mistake? rofl

[@NicolasMuñoz-p8g]

ive never understood why so many people thinks z jumping is bad. Why do players have to damage their hands just to play their favorite game? The real problem however is that you need to spend a lot of money on a hardware mod because a software mod hasnt been standarized. It should.

[@mystraunt2705]

I think its just because people dont like change or adaptation, and other people being allowed to change the button layout would force people to have to adapt. In other words people suck

[@logear]

Why does bro always sound like hes on trial

[@rasha1a]

Cause when you’re talking with online gaming communities for niche video games you need to be explicitly clear, data driven, and elaborate or else people will assume the absolute worst of your personal character and disregard everything you say.

[@thestatesidedaily9890]

I seriously question how much "stealth" actually matters. After all, neutral start is standard in ucf, and it doesn't change the control ports on screen. In vanilla, each port is assigned a starting position on the stage.

[@petitnicollas]

The melee community is fascinating, its a shame that Nintendo mostly ignores it

[@Ellienollie]

I think a good rule of thumb is if you can perform the same on vanilla and this version we are good to go. Of you can consistently do things you normally cant on vanilla it is NO GOOD

[@Nightwalker86]

Let's say I want to try all of this stuff, how would I do it? Melee + 1.03 + a (modified?) Wii? I like how all of it sounds in the video and I want to try it.

[@luiegiii]

I don’t see why melee can’t mod the faulty hitboxes like Luigi, Kirby, and Roy’s dash attack as well hurtboxes like Mewtwo’s tail and other characters bad shields. If we accept the previous fixes I don’t see why we can’t agree upon changes to these minor QoL improvements.

[@dovesr0478]

Why are so many top players against making these fixes? Are they afraid everyone else will catch up if the game is made easier? Makes no sense at all, the game should be as equally accessible as possible.

[@chungusamongus519]

People cope. Its life. Free will is a joke.

[@brovriscoolvriscool5277]

Reply above me is wrong it's because nintendo loves to shut down tournaments running copies with altered code

[@pkness5220]

@@brovriscoolvriscool5277 UCF is already altered code, no?

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

@@brovriscoolvriscool5277 And yet tourney organizers still run UCF.

[@TylerHyperFace]

@@brovriscoolvriscool5277 Reply above me is also wrong. As long as it's not detectable on stream, we Gucci. I miss the Melee that strived to grow and be better.

[@KOxArtist2]

thank you

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

Is this another normal video? Bro is killing it!

[@VisaCardholder]

Why only change the special input when grounded? I understand your logic, but wouldn't making it different from ground to air leave ambiguity? Which you yourself say is a bad thing. I ultimately don't believe it will make a big difference. But as soon as you mentioned it, I felt it was a strange decision for you to make.

[@LARAUJO_0]

19:27 Didn't he say the issue was ground-specific?

[@AlxandreNotavo]

We need Melee 1.04 with subtle character rebalance

[@icegod4849]

I am pro z-jump for this one simple reason: PEOPLE HAVE BEEN USING THEIR INDEX FINGER FOR JUMP FOR YEARS. People learn claw grip for that exact reason, to jump aerial faster and easier. Z-jump just makes it so that people don't need to learn claw and, like Hax said, you could just do the same stuff on a B0XX so might as well (I understand the b0xx hate to some degree but hand pain is hand pain, gatekeeping melee for carpal tunnel isn't okay)

[@ktol8042]

I have have/had carpel tunnel (since before I started playing melee) and I support banning the b0xx. I play controller and my hands are healthier than ever thanks to an effective exercise routine that I picked up a few years ago. The controller hand health issue is mostly overhyped.

[@NIN948]

I honestly think people love this game to much they think it's perfect when ever single game has a lot of flaws

[@Goreblender]

One of the reasons UCF was good and widely accepted by the community was because they fixed issues in hardware inconsistency meaning that players no longer had to spend large amounts of money acquiring unicorn controllers in order to use mechanics that had become necessary in top level play. B0XX accomplishes this goal, but in so doing it disrupts the standardization in physical skillset mastery which is required for competition to remain pure. Z jump disrupts the standardization in physical skillset mastery, while also offering no justifiable reason for its existence from the standpoint of hardware fairness, other than the tenuous one that you are offering which depends on the idea that the B0XX should be legal. Standardization of physical skillset mastery via standardization of equipment is a crucial component in any competitive sport, except for ones where mismatched equipment is the main feature of the sport, such as is the case in HEMA mixed weapon competitions. Introducing mixed hardware automatically perverts the competitive purity of a sport. While introducing communitywide consistency improvements such as UCF advances the goal of placing players on an even playing field, introducing hardware changes that offer advantages to players who use them and punish players who don't retreats from that goal. I empathize with your desire to continue playing in an arena that is important to you despite injuries that prevent you from doing so on the equipment that was once standard to the entire sport, but I disagree with the legality of box controllers, button remapping, phobs, goomwaves or any other modifications which are antithetical to the fundamental competitive goal of discovering which player can achieve the greatest mastery within a standard skillset. Furthermore, to argue that box controllers are an ergonomic improvement you must overlook the mountains of evidence that repetitive finger motions with pronated wrists and inward tented elbows are well known to cause repetitive strain injuries on the elbow tendons and nerves that run through the carpal tunnel into the fingers. Flat-surface box controllers are not a direct ergonomic improvement, they simply shift strain from one area to another. There are other box controllers which address this, and I wish you would do the same. For the reasons above, I would prefer to see unmodified gamecube controllers return as the standard for singles bracket rulesets, with mixed equipment brackets becoming an additional event at the discretion of the tournament organizer than to see modified controllers be fully integrated into the competitive ruleset. But this would pose another problem in that it would fracture the community, for which I see no clean compromise.

[@LARAUJO_0]

Very well-put argument and I get where you're coming from, but I disagree with banning non-OEM controllers entirely. Firstly, different methods of physically executing inputs doesn't make the game "less pure", it just means more people can play the game. Secondly, even if it did, physical execution is just one of many aspects of being skilled at Melee, and extending what controllers people can play on doesn't diminish anyone's game sense, character/matchup knowledge, stage knowledge, positioning, combo trees, reaction speed, hand-eye coordination, and so on.

[@alidiaz4000]

Notes. Paragraph 1. This is the general consensus. Paragraph 2. I agree that both Z Jump and B0XX disrupt the skillset floor. Also, the justification for Z Jump is that custom button binds are commonplace in modern gaming. The advantage is ergonomy and more efficient distribution of tasks for the fingers; that's the logical reason why Cody uses it. Its legality is a discussion to be had even if the B0XX never existed, but in a world where normal B0XX is legal, Z jump should be firmly legal. Paragraph 3. I agree with you that normal B0XX, and non octagon notches are superior to unmodded OEM. Our task now is to also consider the existence of a variation of the sport where the normal B0XX or close is legal. Leveling the skillset with 1.03 legitimizes this variant as a sport even if it was an entirely different sport than vanilla. We at minimum have to let it exist in isolation and promote it to rectangle players and players who want to try something different than 1.02. Here I disagree with a subset of the B0XX community, in that the UCF community should welcome the normal B0XX in... unless we make some big advancement in Melee modding. Paragraph 4. I agree that there are other more ergonomic controllers. I'm sure the digital controller community welcomes Prisms and the like. That's not an excuse to restrict players from using B0XX. We at least have to recognize that the B0XX was the controller that allowed Hax$ to resume playing, so, they are an alternative.

[@alidiaz4000]

Last paragraph. The tension of the community is a bit high. I am not sure that "splitting" the community is something we ought to oppose: it's a way to end the dispute, gameplay and strategy is the same across variants as LARAUJO_0 above helps illustrate, we will always be able to talk with each other as normal. I agree with your proposal in its entirety, and to take it even further, I would promote 1.03 OR a community arbitrated alternative as a big variant of the game as opposed to just an additional modality that sometimes is held in tourneys.

[@Goreblender]

​@@LARAUJO_0 Physical execution is not the only expression of skill or measure of success in melee, you are right about that. That is the case in every PvP sport, however, and most sports that are taken seriously have standardized equipment so that players are seeking to outperform players within the same skillset. If hockey players were permitted to use sticks of a dramatically different shape, with a completely different range of capabilities, and in some cases direct improvements over the former standard, hockey players would have two options: 1) switch to the new sticks 2) accept inferior performance And alongside this, there would be the additional concern that hockey players are no longer practicing the same skills. Perhaps neither style offers an advantage, but now teams are playing and improving at two separate skillsets, and the point of them competing starts to become unclear. Why do I care that hockey team A is better at playing hockey with traditional sticks than hockey team B is at playing with new sticks? To use a more extreme analogy, why do I care that a hockey team is better at hockey than a football team is at football? Beyond this, there are certain things which are possible on B0XX or with Z-jump that are not possible or restrictively difficult on OEM controllers. Therefore, playing against someone using one of these controllers requires different matchup knowledge than playing against someone on an OEM, because the options available to their character are different, or more consistent. The physical skillset DOES change the strategic skillset, because the possibility space of strategy is hard-limited by the player's capability to execute the required components of that strategy on a physical level. Before UCF, for example, shield dropping was not meta. It was a technique that a few people with special controllers had at their disposal, and playing against those people was much different than playing against someone without a controller capable of shield dropping. Eventually, the strengths of shield dropping became so apparent that players started intentionally seeking out controllers that had the capability of performing it. This is when the controller lottery began, and players without hundreds of dollars to spend on finding unicorn controllers started to suffer. A fix was necessary. Box controllers, phobs, goomwaves, notched controllers, etc. do not fix an existing imbalance. They *create* an imbalance by being designed specifically to make difficult tech more consistent. The playerbase is now scrambling to find a solution to the problems that these controllers introduced. Rebalancing the controllers and tampering with the game's software in order to enable OEM controllers to consistently execute techniques that are only possible/reliable on modded controllers are not driven by the need to provide a level playing field, they are driven by the desire of controller modders to incorporate their wares into the scene. Controllers that allow you to remap stick coordinates so that you always get a max length wavedash or always get perfect firefox angles is no different than a controller that always L-cancels your aerials or always does grounded shine when you JC shine. Modded controllers created the problem, and the solution to the problem is not to rebalance the game so that everything is on par with modded controllers, it's to remove the modded controllers.

[@treegod999]

11 mins in "before we get into the video"

[@DrunkenHotei]

I need that c-pad in my life rn

[@imablisy]

Neutral SOCD does not make a box controller feel bad to use and should always have been the default. It doesn't really make any logical sense to allow this type of functionality. No digital pads ever work like this, literally ever.

[@jimbotron8552]

melee has a future?

[@nbshftr]

god forbid a highly competitive game has standardized controls. the controller aspect of melee is a joke.

[@Ellienollie]

Its a joke and commendable at the same time lol. I watch street fighter community not really make any issues about the switch , and they are the ones that claim to be more "legit" in the scene...yet we are having a 10 year argument at this point in the slightest movement and game changes lol

[@TylerHyperFace]

FREE THIS MAN, HOLY FCK, YOUR SCENE DOESN' EVEN DESERVE ALL HE'S DONE.

[@GSEleven]

While that's true, it's a two-way street. Hax to me is like an ex who accepts that they can't date you but will still support you for the chance that you might get back with him, no Diddy. If he went to Rivals or Brawlhalla, dominated, then came back, they would have no choice but to accept him. Why? Because people only like or value you when you're good at the stuff you're doing. Is that bad? No. What's bad is that the Smash community dislikes you when you're not good at the stuff your doing. The norm is to not like OR dislike someone.

[@Earthenmind]

Free Hax, Free Melee. The community is actibeky nerfing its own game by not supoorting Hax. Hes been making Melee better forever.

[@Frido19]

What is middle angled f-smash/tilt? I never knew that was a nerf given to the b0xx

[@and...and..]

I havent watched the vid yet but in a previous video he mentioned that you can angle some tilts/smash attacks up or down, but also slight up/down. The B0xx doesn't have the ability to input these angles, only up/down.

[@sczoot6285]

Melee has no future in a world with rivals II

[@tracystallworth1239]

Is this fixed version even the game we love?

[@iwannabethekid34xc]

The banned man. Hope your leg doesnt hurt from the phantom pain anymore bro.

[@POINDEXTER-TV]

I might be confused. Is there anyone putting in just as much effort to explain why these SHOULDN'T be implemented? Hax putting in work over here, meanwhile I hear nothing about it after the fact. At this point you've explained this multiple times in a way even a dumb mf like me can understand and yet nothing is being done

[@AL-lh2ht]

It’s a mod that goes beyond being a “phantom” mod. Mods are explicitly banned by Nintendo, and yes they do check on majors.

[@lpfan4491]

​@@AL-lh2htPlaying anything other than Vanilla on an entirely official setup with no commentary and without video recording is banned by Nintendo.

[@POINDEXTER-TV]

@@AL-lh2ht I thought 1.03 already had a stealth version and an option to unfreeze stadium?

[@iamawin8272]

@@AL-lh2ht 100% of all tournaments are already using UCF which is a mod

[@AL-lh2ht]

@@iamawin8272 It depends on the tournament. and yes Nintendo pushed back against UCF. UCF can only exist if everyone prerends it does not exist.

[@lamMeTV]

I dont see why ADT NEEDS to be fixed. Not saying it should stay but it seems like a mechanic

[@Rowann1]

Goat

[@arabmunny]

rivals 2 will be out soon we won’t even have to worry about this anymore

[@saymehname]

I hope so. I am so sick of Nintendo taking a crap on us

[@arabmunny]

@@saymehname me fucking too, i want rivals to succeed so bad lmfaoooo

[@nahometesfay1112]

It's a different game ROA2 isn't supposed to replace Melee

[@spacejambluray2591]

Rivals will be popular for 2 months max and then only diehards will compete, it will inevitably fall

[@tkienjoyer]

​@@arabmunnyI want to play rivals so much but it literally just crashes on launch on my pc, even though my brother's worse gpu can run it fine. Best fucking fighting game in 20 years and I can't even play it.

[@Loltrollface69]

Should just have stayed oem controllers with an updated ucf only.

[@GregInTechnicolor]

... They really want RNG BUILT into controllers?? I might as well play the lottery as opposed to playing Melee. Anyone down for competitive scratch-offs?

[@rasha1a]

It’s full circle. Went from the controller lottery of finding a controller with good dash back just to compete fairly, to now having to add RNG to interrupt precision, just to compete fairly.

[@GregInTechnicolor]

@rasha1a absolute whiplash. Why even compete if your controller might not do what you tell it to...? That's called "not responsive gamplay" and is the antithesis of competitive gaming, especially Melee.

[@Timic83tc]

Analog controls in fighting games you always lose FGC supremacy

[@tonysanchez1000]

Hax did nothing wrong.

[@AL-lh2ht]

Not according to Hax

[@beansprugget2505]

If you disabled comments your videos would improve by 69%.

[@Akiak7]

Might as well fix broken stuff in characters too like Mewtwo Side-B not reflecting projectiles. No?

[@xdCloudxd1996]

Fixing hardware and universal mechanics is fine in my oppinion. What you ask is rebalancing a character, which is not exactly the same thing...

[@lpfan4491]

Well, yes. That is why game modding is also done for the game, to fix broken mechanics. However, if the community prefers playing a broken version for a tournament because it's official, then people will do that. Fixes to hardware bugs and input polling fundamentally apply to every version of the game, official or custom.

[@sSynclare]

i forgot prac tas existed that guy went off the deep end years ago

[@some1rational]

im ootl, what did he do?

[@AL-lh2ht]

@@some1rationalnothing, he just made up a vague statement to discredit him out of hand.

[@HyperSolarix255]

I would love just a simple option for Tap Jump to be disabled in some way. I hate playing with it in online Ranked.

[@rasha1a]

Pros and cons. It enables some techniques, while also enabling jank and slop. I wish it was toggleable too

[@Nigglai]

lets goooooooooooooooooooo

[@ismelljello]

They gonna free you soon brotha, trust.

[@silassmith5348]

#freehax

[@ArmoredAnathema]

...Is Rivals 2 😏

[@GSEleven]

Bro if you are still playing this game in 2 years lmk, I'll even practice with you, because by then I will have it myself.

[@Ian-hj8qk]

im a bit confused, if all this work and thought is being put into make a box...why not just make a more reliable gamecube controller instead? there's ALWAYS going to be disagreements and buffs/nerfs to make to balance box vs controller. wasn't the whole point of the box just to make a more reliable input device because of gamecube controllers being faulty? is there some legal reason why there can't be a community gamecube controller? I would assume so, but I don't know how custom controller companies work in that regard.

[@rasha1a]

Look into custom GCCs. Now pony up $250+ for one that can do *some* of the things 1.03 fixes universally.

[@Societyman123]

Yes pls fix dash out of crouch

[@takatominemoto7703]

"serious competition" ya no rivals II wont be replacing melee sorry

[@chungusamongus519]

Can you learn to spell and use proper grammar so I don't hurt my head trying to figure out which side you're on?

[@sirluppioth]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIa7hmCsndWAhJosi=p5NZaFIyICVpfVC0&t=1471 IMHO ADT should not be changed, as it buff shield even more against projectiles and attacks simultaneously. GCC users like myself have trigger tricked at least one shoulder button for this very reason. You do not need to take a spring out, you can just hold down trigger while you are plugging in the GCC or while holding X, Y, and start for 3 seconds.

[@spacejambluray2591]

Holding the button in still prevents you from light l cancelling tho that’s the point, also you should not hit those 1 in a million projectiles anyways that’s just silly

[@joeykeilholz925]

Yeet.

[@yit555]

I just like the idea of being able to bring my Gamecube and legit copy of Melee™️ to a tournament and just play the game. Introducing all these different versions of the game with different fixes can get messy.

[@GSEleven]

I can relate, but what I gather from his ideas is that he would rather change the game instead of doing what players do, change their controllers every few years which costs upwards to hundreds of dollars. I think he makes a good compromise but I feel that most would rather not modify the game.

[@kinganondorf]

damn melee so perfect its need to be modded constantly

[@heterodoxagnostic8070]

HAX$ ACC

[@KaiiLikeHawaii]

point 1 - shield drop becoming easier is not at all the same as dashback becoming easier. with a good controller, shield drop was already very easy, it's just that not every controller was good. with dashback, there was no such thing as a truly good controller, because they would all fail more or less. fixing shield drop was an actual UCF, and fixing dashback was just a competitive balance change. point 2 - defining the nature of this change, and future changes in ucf and 1.03, is dishonest and manipulative, i feel. if you and others will advocate for this, then you have to be straightforward about it being a competitive version of melee that is based on melee. it isn't fixing broken parts of melee, it is turning melee into a different, competitively-driven game. that's the truth. point 3 - parity can not exist between a digital stick and an analog stick. it is equally dishonest to represent the motivation for buffing gcc as seeking parity. two completely different tools having completely different strengths is not equal, but it can still help to obscure a power imbalance nonetheless. just don't call it any more equal. point 4 - i really hope that the ruleset committee and all other relevant parties strongly consider fixing some of the mechanics that 1.03 has fixed. you are and were ahead of the curve in understanding the issues raised by the b0xx, and you are constantly finding new ways to help remedy mitigate them, whether that's by nerfing b0xx or buffing gcc. i really appreciate the knowledge and passion you put into melee. forgotten point: as much as i want to believe the "stealth" concerns are related to nintendo's ever watchful gaze... brother, we use slippi mirroring at every single event. you think they don't notice that every setup is emulating the game? if i'm not mistaken, that's already their biggest issue with the melee scene. there is no such thing as stealth anymore. one look at the game clarity/transition to the post-game screen breaks stealth immediately.

[@alidiaz4000]

I'm an outsider to the community. A spectator... but I've been following the controller discourse for months now. I see why the B0XX has caused so many headaches to the vanilla advocates. I give it to them because it's a hype game as it is. In their world, the game's skillchecks are part of its identity and the perils of the GCC are actually features. Most, but not all will agree with fixing a particular faulty mechanic. In the vanilla paradigm GCC vs digital will stay unbalanced for a long, long time. In such ideal world, B0XX shouldn't exist. The CRTeam volunteered to work on keeping box-style controllers under these circumstances. On the other side, Hax$ disagrees with the CRTeam because he is working within a different paradigm of Melee, one where the community has the right to tear down a number of stick "skill" checks to streamline intended inputs while keeping things competitive. In this way B0XX and GCC will achieve balance

[@alidiaz4000]

I have hopes in the community that everyone will have a place in it, and everybody can have fun in it. I do see splitting rulesets in two as a solution. In this vein, I don't know why we don't have more and more 1.03 tournaments given some TOs will be inclined to welcoming standard B0XX players while keeping competition fair. (By the way Z jump and potentially notches will be welcome here too). But the vanilla community is resilient as it has been since the 2010s and won't go. B0XX players will either not sign in those tournaments or play by their rules, presumably the ones that CRTeam considers best

[@spacejambluray2591]

Dashback is already “fixed” by ucf and similar to shield drops was half assed and needlessly inconsistent unless you buy a good controller it didn’t remove the requirement of needing a “good” controller only slightly mitigated it. No one is playing 2001 melee your point of “it’s a different game based on competitive viability” is redundant and frankly retarded because without the competitive aspect no one would care at all, furthermore ucf has already tipped the scales I mean you could even argue half of the competitive techs did that a decade ago. Of course you can never have 1 to 1 parity with a digital vs analog controller but you can alleviate the differences and make them both viable with their own slight advantages or disadvantages without having an objectively better option like we’ve been flip flopping in recent. I think that’s an expected understanding not that he’s maliciously trying to trick people or something lol.

[@morganlak4337]

I'm pretty sure the stealth thing is not about Nintendo being unaware of modded games/emulation, but more so to do with Nintendo's rules for streaming/presenting their games. If a large event that is making money off of a Nintendo game is openly presenting a modded version of that game, Nintendo will be upset about misuse of their brand and could potentially take legal action. As long as it's stealth, everyone involved has plausible deniability, even if no one is ignorant

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

If parity is meant to be competitive equality, then it can exist. It does in traditional fighters, where there was once a ""debate"" about leverless controllers, that instantly sputtered out because the community correctly recognized that it would be silly and even ableist to ban them. It took a little longer for the stigma to die out but nowadays you'd get laughed at if you called them "cheatboxes" like people did at one point. And we still see players winning tournaments on all three major control methods, pad stick and leverless, so competitive equality is not noticeably affected, while the game is more accommodating to players who struggle with pad or stick for various reasons including injury. Obviously the controller will never be able to do everything a box can, and same in the reverse, but that isn't required for competitive integrity. Especially with so many fixes focused on the GCC, this makes the game better for people who have subpar GCC's playing against other GCC users. Lowering the financial barrier to playing the game is always worth doing. I don't agree with hax about all of 1.03's proposed changes (tho I don't have any skin in the game as I will never play offline), but I appreciate that his reasoning is at least clear and consistent.

[@Sufiley]

Hm

[@TylerClibbon]

1f dashback is not at all similar to tripping in brawl if polling drift is fixed, it's a hype 1f window, it also makes chaingrabs harder

[@danterobledo322]

release dragon king

[@Timic83tc]

balancing a game around fox melee is so stupid analog controls ruin this game

[@ZachStarAttack]

first

[@soupwithpotatos1542]

its the zato guy

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

@@soupwithpotatos1542 that's why they call him zato=1

[@ZachStarAttack]

@@soupwithpotatos1542 Thank you for recognizing me

[@ZachStarAttack]

@@user-et3xn2jm1u That's right good sir

[@soupwithpotatos1542]

@@ZachStarAttack i hope Zato gets super buffed come season 4 literally only because of you

[@TylerClibbon]

there is no problem with 1 frame timings, if polling drift is fixed then it's just very precise which is hype and makes it an interesting risk vs reward ratio i agree with fixing the dbooc pixels and keeping the current shield drop fix, everything else should be left vanilla and all controller mods/boxes should be banned

[@spacejambluray2591]

This is the same statement as being hardcore anti abortion, yes in a perfect world it should be illegal, but it’s not and it never will be so why argue about this made up fantasy that’s ultimately irrelevant… just compromise and make both options viable. P.s in a perfect world obviously rape doesn’t exist idiot

[@GhostOfTommyFinton]

you're BANNED so you don't get to talk about your little game anymore, sweetie.

[@iwannabethekid34xc]

rofl

[@lpfan4491]

Not funny, didn't laugh.

[@GhostOfTommyFinton]

@@lpfan4491 you laughed at least a little bit