The Future of Shotgun Cartridges? - IWA 2019

[@snook1249]

Excellent about time too, hope it goes across the board with all manufactures going plastic free wads. I can see in the fixture clay grounds will be strip mining to recover the tons and tons of lead. Clay targets will break regardless of whether they are hit by steel or lead, they don't have feelings and there's no moral dilemmas! Save the lead for when the impact is critical to a clean humane kill I think.

[@browningmaxus5360]

They all Ready do that

[@Cplatt97]

What about shotguns that are sold as "lead shot only"?

[@snook1249]

@@Cplatt97 Nitro proof shotguns can cope with standard velocity steel shot size 4 and smaller through half choke or less, BASC recommend quarter or less. The risk of damage is not from the steel shot scratching the barrels as the wad protects it, the risk is that steel shot 'might' not compress enough to get through the choke constriction and bulge the muzzles. There is also the question of pressure from high velocity steel cartridges and the proofing of actions. However ask this to an American shooter and they will give a completely different answer!

[@danebrewer10]

Not to mention the little plastic disc at either end of a fibre wad.....

[@danebrewer10]

I'd buy the bioammo cartridges, seems like a perfect union for any semi auto shooter, or roost shooting(when it's allowed again) making it hard to find your cases in the brambles....

[@Reckeeto]

When in the field I tend to manage the environment by using paper case, but would be keen to try out some of this biodegradable stuff, just wouldn't be too keen on having any of those eleys if it was raining!!

[@2Twill]

A possible problem with traditional bioplatics is micro plastic depending on the way the wad breaks down you could have micro plastics in the soil rather than one wad which is impossible to pick up unlike a traditional plastic wad. In field that might not be ideal. I look forward to seeing more info on this subject in future videos 👍

[@tgsoutdoors]

It would appear that both get around this, unlike the old Photo-degradable was that was around a few years ago. I look forward Ron doing my own tests to see how much is plastic is left over after a year. now just to find my junior science kit

[@2Twill]

@@tgsoutdoorsThanks. An interesting future subject for the channel. Look forward to finding out more hopefully.

[@219garry]

I worked in plastics for years. We were using biodegradable plastic parts as an assembly process for installing wiper blades on vehicles 20 years ago. After they were installed you just left them and the rain water washed them away afterwards. This material from what I remember was made from animal fat somehow.

[@felixd7818]

What is planned for the reloader? In the US reloading is big business and a biodegradable wad that performs will sell. Clubs are are stuck with cleaning up plastic wads that are not degradable.

[@duncnz3129]

Plastic which breaks down into microscopic particles , still remains in the environment and can end up in small fish , shellfish etc . A wad is unsightly but wont kill fish .

[@HS-en4fd]

Dunc R “biodegradable” plastic and lead in one shell no thank you. xD

[@danebrewer10]

I'm not sure it's even plastic, more a "plastic like" substance, similar properties, but isn't made from oil...could be starch based, strengthened with plant fibres

[@duncnz3129]

@@danebrewer10 Excellent . I worked for the Maxim agents in New Zealand , we once brought in a container of shotshells which had been kept back for testing if there was any problems with the batch, there were dozens of differently labeled packets and shells , they were made for firearms makers , clubs , shoots , even castles , as well as different names for different countries . All good stuff

[@manofkentcatapultsgunsando5069]

If its good for the environment. Its good for me

[@galerivs]

yeah.. and only down is for that ammo you need to have separate REFRIGERATOR

[@saltcreekammo]

So it breaks down into microscopic pieces of plastic? How is that better?

[@geraldswain3259]

Used saga competition cartridges many times in the 80s super shell's especially their little 1oz 20 gauge trap load.

[@orion7873]

If these don't perform as well or better and if they aren't any cheaper ... I don't see anyone in a gun store saying "I'll willingly spend more on a lesser, more expensive shell because it's green"

[@tgsoutdoors]

Agreed, but it should perform better!

[@rayankamaleddine1883]

So what happens to your shells if it starts raining?

[@browningmaxus5360]

Shit shot

[@harrisonlane921]

Do you know if they will be offering the components for home loader's?

[@ShootingAndReloading]

I keep on hearing you say that plastic wad performance is always better than fibre, but that is not my experience, nor the findings of several bits of research, nor indeed your own recent video where plastic and fibre were the equal of each other, and that was at the budget end of the market! Either which way, plastic wads do need to go. A plastic carrier bag weighs 5 grams and a plastic wad 2.5 grams. Given that many of us will shoot 100 cartridges on a Sunday, that is the equivalent of driving down a country road and chucking 50 carrier bags from the car window. Extrapolate that to the global shooting each year!

[@manofkentcatapultsgunsando5069]

Kevin Adam . Thats a hell of a lot of plastic mate isn't it. Not good

[@ShootingAndReloading]

@Stuart York Surely better having fibre decomposing in a few months rather than standard plastic that takes between 20 and 1,000 years. Disagree about obturation. I now exclusively use Gamebore Black Gold fibre in my "overbore" Beretta 692 and compared with the plastic variant there is zero difference velocity and the pattern is actually more even and holds just as tight at distance (tested through my gun on a pattern plate and chrono'd). With 11,500 psi behind a wad, there is no problem with a fibre wad compressing and expanding in diameter to obturate the bore. Remember that a fibre wad is typically 18.9mm as loaded into a cartridge and most overbore tubes are 18.6mm - therefore has to compress into the bore to start with.

[@tgsoutdoors]

The PVA they use in the Eley and Rio is water soluble however we are just disappearing the problem (according to BioAmmo) when in a solution of over 5% it is actually counted as toxic, which scared me a lot. BioAmmo seems the better option I think, as it is truly compostable

[@ShootingAndReloading]

@@tgsoutdoors Eley say (www.eleyhawkltd.com/media-events/press-releases/eley-hawk-launches-the-first-disolvable-and-biodegradeable-wad-): "Eley hawk is the first UK manufacturer to launch a fully biodegradable and dissolvable wad for steel cartridges that will leave no trace in the environment. The products will be launched at the industry-leading Consumer and Trade show the British Shooting Show 2019 at the NEC Feb 15th - 17th 2019 The wad is made of Hydrosoluble ingredients that dissolve within 24 hours in water ( less if the water is moving) It leaves behind no plastic residues and breaks down into biomass and with its trace minerals will actually have a positive composting effect on the soil it breaks down into. The new hydrosoluble wad is 100% biodegradable and all its additives are of vegetable biomass origin, making it compliant with International standards. Not only does the wad not harm the environment, but it turns into compost (CO2, mineral salts and biomass), actively adding positive nutrients into the soil. .........The Material used in the shot wad material complies with the regulations of Compost-ability EN13432 and ASTM 6400 and contains no toxins for the environment." Eley say that the wad actually improves the environment. So, either Eley or BioAmmo are being disingenuous.... Either which way, assuming all other things equal, I like the look of the BioAmmo better as the case, even if collected still goes in landfill.

[@tgsoutdoors]

I am with you that someone in this race is being less than honest. BioAmmo did put across a convincing case, as we obvious said ‘is this the same as the Eley wad?’ Turns out he gets that question a lot and had a folder full of facts to show the difference. Essentially the Eley/Rio wad is made from Polyvinyl Alcolhol (PVA the same as bags for Carp Fishing). Although water soluble it takes a long time for the remnants in the solution to disappear. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_alcohol It states here that a solution of less than 5% is non-toxic to fish. Although taking everything each company said with a pinch of salt, as there was clear rivalry, we were told that one PVA was will take a gallon of water just over 5%. Either way the Eley is better that standard plastic wads for sure but I can’t help feeling like there is a loophole they have used. I guess BioAmmo was a good preacher...

[@sjowners]

Compressed corn starch

[@bobunderwater5320]

Excellent

[@lledrmorgan]

The Way forward

[@carpingchris61]

Great to see and just needs to get more focus from the sports media and perhaps shooting events. Perhaps that will then educate some of the non shooting fraternity, that the sports not that bad for the environment we live in at all.

[@zacbell03]

How long do you think it will be before blood sports get banned from the uk, if ever? (I personally hope it won’t but I have a growing concern)

[@tgsoutdoors]

We will see many manly societal changes before it does get banned, they will make it very hard for us on the way there

[@KateRobinson1961]

@@tgsoutdoors So we need to promote target shooting to wider audience to compensate for potential loss of commercial game shooting...? What about hunting for meat ? Pest Control ? Livestock protection ?.....

[@benclay8689]

What loads were in the bio ammo shells

[@tgsoutdoors]

Everything you could ever want 28-36gram

[@benclay8689]

@@tgsoutdoors and any shot size and who is selling them

[@tgsoutdoors]

No official importer .... yet

[@benclay8689]

@@tgsoutdoors would your shop try and stock them

[@tgsoutdoors]

100% will stock these. Anything for a greener world - there is no place for single use plastics this century. As countrymen, we should be leading the way in protecting the earth.

[@jasonau1999]

Sounds great

[@chrisbannister2137]

What’s the shelf life with these degradable products ? That’s what I would ask If u have a spare box a couple of years in less than perfect conditions will it degrade and cause issues

[@tgsoutdoors]

The degradable product was described to us thus - if you leave a cardboard box in a cupboard in the house it will last 15 years, in the garage a few years and the garden maybe a year. The bio ammo is degraded by natural bacteria. No bacteria no degradation. The Eley is just humidity based

[@chrisbannister2137]

The Gun Shop Hmmm very good stuff on face value.. time will tell , keep up the vids.

[@wigglos]

Here in Flanders, lead shot has been forbidden for a few years now. So everybody is shooting plastic cupped steel shot, littering the countryside... The only alternative I've found is Gamebore Silver Steel, which uses a fibre cup. Quite expensive, but worth it to me.

[@stepanmikulica]

Poor you. You can always carry your spent shells. (I know with semi-auto it is harder) but I am only a sport shooter so I can clean up after myself more easily when on the range.

[@ShotawayFilms]

Chaps there has been a Green Shoot water soluble cup wad alternative on the market for a while.This was also developed in Spain. Armusa Cartridges are available with these Wads here in Uk unless something has changed.They did shoot very well but of course ultra dry storage is critical and they left deposits in the chambers which could be removed with hot water.Something which did not come to light straight away so had by then stopped using them.Lead Shot formation was also a little irregular.In fairness though they patterned well and showed good knock down potential.The wads looked like small ''shrooms'' and they did breakdown quite quickly.A few years ago now when I shot them. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJTSamyeg6dnd68

[@tgsoutdoors]

I know that green shot cups have been in development for years with various type released. The Eley (Maxxam) wad promises to be more resilient than the rest though. What I found far more interesting was BIO Ammo’s concept. The fully degradable wad and shell make for a much more interesting concept in the long run. Looking forward to trying these out.

[@huntinternational8836]

Purbeck where bringing them in but stopped

[@ShotawayFilms]

Yes this was my source when I shot them.A few of us used them in preference to Fibre one season but the ''gunge'' in the chambers was the first con and the end of it really.

[@carsmax]

Bravo!!

[@KolyaNickD]

Interesting video but that music at the beginning is so jarring I have to turn the volume down then back up for the actual video...

[@sinboy26]

is anybody ever gona produce that spice shot i gould go for some garlic powder

[@williamprince1114]

I suspect it will be a requirement in the USA within 5 years.

[@tgsoutdoors]

I would like it if all unnecessary plastic was banned within the next 10 years

[@FeckArseIndustries]

Hi TGS! How about a side by side test between steel and lead cartridges? Same make, same shot size(6?), same length from the same gun. Carry out the test in a transparent ballistic testing gelatin. Then find the increase in steel shot size in order to match the size 6 (lead) penetration. Also a side by side pattern test? Thoughts?

[@grahamstubbs4962]

9:00 Wait. What? Lead is not toxic? I like your programme output but you're going to struggle to justify this statement.

[@tgsoutdoors]

But the science man said... this was perhaps a little too dry - did sound like denial 😂 On that note I think a video on the subject would be good!

[@grahamstubbs4962]

Aye. Dry as a witch's teat. :-)

[@stepanmikulica]

Well it is heavy metal, (you can be poisoned by gold even) so it is somewhat toxic but no need to freak out. Just do not eat it in large quantities. :-). There are people who consume small doses of pure mercury (I will not recommend it tho, even that the pure mercury is not as dangerous as its compounds) But the lead? It oxidizes - it seals itself with harmless oxides and stays in that way like forever. Now ECHA is trying to ban lead in ammunition for "ecology" but it is a bullshit reason. And on top, also for sport shooters not only for hunters.

[@trancamortal]

Probably made out of corn

[@markmortenson8141]

Lead is toxic. Ever hear of lead poisoning?

[@stepanmikulica]

Not so much. Yes, do not eat it - probably not the best idea. But do you know, that a lot of water piping was done in lead? And guess what? Nothing happened to the people from the water. You can dig up lead balls from muskets from Napoleonic wars and they will be the same weight (maybe bit more). You know why? The lead will encapsulate itself in a thin layer of harmless oxide.

[@majr72]

Hhmmm I’m guessing a box of this is going to be comparable to a box 25ea. Of steel shot $40 or more. No thank you.

[@tgsoutdoors]

The BioAmmo sells for 7-10 euros a box so it’s not bad!

[@Jolly56Roger]

TO TO expensive