"The Game is a Mess..." - Kkokkoma and Joka Speak on TEKKEN 8

[@sliippy2152]

the feng downplay needs to be studied

[@tekkn_579]

Ask knee lol

[@danielsacilotto6235]

Feng is very strong, but there are even dumber characters. Feng still needs to win several interactions.

[@TwanSolo3]

On GOD!

[@sergiok6660]

As a feng main, he absolutely is privileged. He's definitely a product of "just not as busted as the other high tiers" Personally tho, i think he's a good metric for what makes a good char. If you're worse than feng, you're not a top tier. He's a gatekeeper top tier lol

[@tekkn_579]

@ yeah but he ain’t a 50\50 character necessarily, just no glaring weakness. He’s how a top tier character should be like.

[@Quince477]

I definitely agree that powercrush heat engagers have to go

[@xxiii262]

Easy health recovery 😂😂

[@xxiii262]

Easy health recovery 😂😂

[@brent6909]

Safe on block, high, power crush, heat engager is a really painful thing to say out loud.

[@dieselsav]

at least we dont have powercrush launchers (yet)

[@Ravemaster620]

​@@dieselsavNah, I *think* they learnt their lesson with Akuma and Hwoarang on that one

[@Yari-cor]

The way Joka was answering politically about his own character 💀

[@dragonfist91]

Joka: Nerf everyone except my mains.

[@GuvXIV]

if i watch this and either joka or kkokkoma downplay feng ima lose my mind edit: I CANT TAKE THIS ANYMORE

[@PayamGhorbani-u4q]

I wonder nobody spoke about Jin. So he is not that crazy Character😁

[@tekkn_579]

@@PayamGhorbani-u4qnot that easy to do well with

[@johnnymonsterrrr]

@@PayamGhorbani-u4qhe is

[@cbimz]

Says the Steve fox main. Nerf Steve it's completely busted and buff characters like dragunov and Alisa they need to be stronger

[@GuvXIV]

@cbimz buff feng so he has a 50/50

[@kojack_ay99]

I really hate that they made every other character a stance mix up character now

[@brandonjackson5946]

love tekken since tekken 4 I've played every single one since 2002 tekken 8 by far is the most stressful online with the variety of oppressive system

[@ScotsmanJ]

I was playing last night and it suddenly hit me that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore. Even when you win against these players online it doesn't even feel good. Your forced to play so braindead and repetitive.

[@skywalkersbutido6375]

Same

[@Ronbotnik]

​​@@ScotsmanJyou hit the nail on the head, even when i win it doesnt feel good, just relief that its over. my gimmicky braindead bs won over theirs, wow so fun

[@Superfoodcookie]

​@@ScotsmanJu need to quit the game then. Tekken fans have a toxic relationship with their game. Same for other games like league of legends etc. I've actually had the most fun in tekken 8 since 5. Tekken 5 was absolutely broken with so many characters having death combos. Tekken 6 was prob the 2nd best out if not almost the best. I did like the setting alot as well. Tekken 7 was ridiculously defensive. It's "back dash, poke, poke, back dash, back dash, poke, poke" that was legit the playstyle of tekken 7 it felt punishing to engage which in a fighting game is stupid as hell. It's why tekken 8 feels more engaging. They nerfed back dash and buffed side stepping. Grey health a great defensive come back utility. Something never seen in tekken. And what people don't also mention combos took a massive nerf for the first time in history. You could get half a combo damage back with a heat engage.

[@ScotsmanJ]

@@Superfoodcookie I already deleted it from my PS5

[@allaccordingtokeikaku1353]

this game is literally flowchat and 50/50 all day. offense is toned up with chip damage, tracking, moves being safe (or plus) when they shouldn't be and being evasive as fuck. when you character cant move while blocking.

[@ALPHA-SOLIDUS]

"when you character cant move while blocking" Drag and Bryan are massive offenses for this they make the game 2d in high level.

[@NearTheme]

@@ALPHA-SOLIDUS if you can't sidestep bryan that's on you, his tracking is the same as T7.

[@AB-wb9kg]

Bryan is one of the easiest characters to sidestep lol It's one of his weaknesses

[@ALPHA-SOLIDUS]

@@NearTheme You joking right? would you like me to upload some examples?

[@ALPHA-SOLIDUS]

@@NearTheme I'm guess you use lili or one of the other characters that have a godly ss

[@heroicsquirrel3195]

If you dont take the game seriously its fun, as soon as you actually respect it like a real fighting game you’re going to be livid, its made for casuals

[@oblivion294]

its the pro scene that makes the game more attractive. casuals play a day or two and quit

[@elaxlol223]

@@oblivion294 I'm a casual and I have stuck to this game since day 1, despite its problems this is my favorite fighting game since dbfz came out

[@marcindamian7329]

​@@elaxlol223 same

[@DaPhenomAce]

Agreed. Casual is fun because I don't care as much about the BS. But ranked feels like playing smash Bros with items on

[@SpicyPunkRockerOfficial]

Facts

[@HenryNesta-o5b]

And phidx was criticising tekken 7 in the light of tekken 8 few days ago…….what kkokoma said is what we legacy tekken players trying to say….all characters play same…all matches feel same.

[@I-F-R]

Then go play tekken 5?

[@EggscellentTree]

I would love if they put old tekken games on steam ​@@I-F-R

[@cokesucker9520]

@@I-F-R Good luck finding people to play with.

[@iqrakhan1509]

​@@I-F-Ryeah every legacy player should play tekken 5 a game with no tournaments . Good luck to any conversation with you. 🥴

[@I-F-R]

@ then adapt and quit crying

[@flar28]

downplaying safe powercrush highs is crazy

[@yungslack7311]

Duck?

[@Topgamer357]

​@@yungslack7311 Ducking is risky. Most of them are heat engagers as well.

[@superslavbross9935]

@@yungslack7311 Powercrush in it's concept is a risky/panic move. A "get off me" tool . So Imho all powercrushes should be punishable on block. should high powercrushes just be mids instead ?

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

@@Topgamer357in my personal opinion, they should be duckable plus having the heat engager removed. Gives the opponent counter play but still lets you use it offensively

[@Tain_edReaper]

@@superslavbross9935 High power crush should be -7 to -9 with no pushback. Heat engager removed

[@darkslayerstyle1745]

Joka and Kok: "50/50s and people downplaying their char is awful." Also joka and kok: "Feng is not 50/50".

[@JustN0tMe]

How is he 50/50?😅 I don't play or like Feng but he's definitely not a 50/50 character

[@darkslayerstyle1745]

@JustN0tMe I think that because he has 3 snake edges and a safe mid launcher. Also his heat stomp aoe into backturn mix up is pretty dumb. I don't think he is more 50/50 than any other char (otherwise he is god tier in everything), but saying he isn't 50/50 is hypocritical.

[@GerardoFirestorm]

They both defende their mains, is disgustting

[@akpade]

How tf is feng 50/50

[@darkslayerstyle1745]

@@GerardoFirestorm yeah I enjoyed the Video but these guys were frustrating.

[@beppo8932]

3:13 This is exactly what the game needs. So many times I have gotten clipped when im fully on their left side or right side and it continues into a heat burst combo that will continue to take about 50% to 70% of my health bar. I get punished for playing evasively, even though the move that was thrown out was a linear move. if you get rushed down by a character, you should be able to sidestep and punish, not sidestep and get punished.

[@Tea_N_Snacks]

Re downloaded T6 , 7 , 8 and enjoying 6 the most tbh.

[@renzlarin1871]

same here, also tekken tag 2

[@edwuano7]

i never gave 6 a fair shot but I've played every other entry. I have it, so today might be the day.

[@Ronbotnik]

the closer you get to real tekken without all the flashy gimmicks, the more enjoyable the games get. how about that?

[@brandonspringfield2861]

​@Ronbotnik i remember saying all of this before tekken 8 dropped and was crucified I said the game doesn't need all these gimmicks and cutscenes and was called a boomer and that I need to get with the times, I was like bro this crap isn't Tekken they are just biting off of street fighter and mortal kombat.

[@coffeebean_tamer]

Players hate on T6 way way too much its actually great even if Bob os broken as f.

[@revengetekken]

this episode was really interesting ! loved the guests choice as well :)

[@kayanims]

Honestly, this is the problem with balancing Tekken 8. Everyone is just advocating for their own interest.

[@louisedyhlen3234]

I mean you can only be you, it's simply impossible to advocate anything than your personal perspective; you can think that you can but if you just really observe you cannot

[@AK-sw1nj]

Balancing the game isn’t hard. Remove chip damage. Remove heat engaging power crushes. Make it so you cannot heat dash if the move doesn’t connect. Either reduce rage art damage or limit it to 1 time use per set. Delete Dragunov, Yoshi, Jin and Alisa.

[@georgis6086]

Totally agree

[@KyleBankston-m8t]

I think they should make quick match / player match modes a sandbox of experimentation where people can tweak the game themselves. You could call different people's tweaked versions "mixes". People can "mix" the game however they want--remove moves from movelists, reduce heat, remove it, remove certain characters, eliminate rage, power crush moves, guard break moves, or make them more or less frames / damage, slow down the speed of the game, etc. Basically allow players to become developers in in unranked modes. Some mixes may become popular, you could have a phidx mix, rip mix, arslan mix, main man mix, some random dude might nail all the variables and that mix might catch on and become the pseud-definitive version of the game that the community winds up falling in love with and adopting. I'd personally really appreciate just the ability to play matches at about 80% speed, maybe 130% health ( cause I feel like too many rounds can last just like 10 seconds), no rage and no heat. I'd also like the ability to set parameters in quick match, like if I only want to match with a certain character, jin, for example. Like I don't know why the features on quick match are so barren. I get that with ranked it wouldn't make sense to allow people to choose which characters they want to fight, but in unranked modes you should have the freedom to play the game however you want to. If I never want to match with another Victor player again, that should be my right in quick match. I also feel like in unranked modesyou should be able to see frame data and other shit you would use in practice mode like your movelist. Also they should fix the jukebox feature and allow you to select tracks from across the discography to play at random (minor gripe, I know) and I think it would be really cool if they brought back old stages from past games in unranked modes since they already have those stages built and designed and it doesn't matter as much if the game breaks a little in unranked modes, it would just be cool to see those stages again.

[@inixi8ocelot]

*Joka and Arslan* "nerf all the "bRoKeN" characters except my main."

[@zaselimgamingvideos]

I don't think arslan said the same thing as joka is saying😂. Arslan's issue with the game is not the characters but the whole system/mechanic of tekken 8. And i think by changing/balancing the tekken 8 system/mechanic will help a lot in character balancing as well.

[@say3184]

it's not about one character, but the entire system that destroys the game

[@zaselimgamingvideos]

@@say3184 exactly.

[@GerardoFirestorm]

@@zaselimgamingvideos Arslan was crying too about Lili

[@yellowscarlightningscream8347]

Arslan has said many times Nina is broken and needs nerf. Its his latest tweet saying Nina is top 3

[@Concealed.Revealed]

Maybe it's not about too many 50/50s in Tekken 8, but rather the lack of being able to "control the likelihood of 50/50s coming up" while on defense. You could achieved this in Tekken 7 by learning about KBD, good movement, and purposeful spacing. I don't think Tekken 8's design will allow for that style of play anymore (thinking about how Heat Engagers work) - So perhaps we need a "get out of jail free card" new heat mechanic? Like a SF6 Drive Reversal? ...I don't know.

[@snizzle6174]

The reality is they can completely redefine the game just by changing the balance of moves across the board. Imagine, for example, every single move was minus on block? or if every move was 10 frames slower? Obviously those are bad ideas, but I'm just saying that it won't take much to transform the game from what it is now to something much better. Also, isn't heat burst the 'get out of jail free card'? Also, as a quick reality check, your average tekken player in modern tekken where the game is popular simply won't play at a high level. This is why the majority of the playerbase is WAY below what most people call a 'bad rank'. That's just how it is - the majority of the playerbase is casual now and they just want to throw moves and do Stuff, and that's okay. I think part of what the tekken community actually misses is when tekken was a smaller community comprised of only the extremely dedicated people, alongside the system changes that made tekken more popular making the game easier to turn your brain off with. I mean it's why I love BBCF - I can queue ranked in there and inevitably the other person I'm playing against is trying their hardest to play the high level game, not just throw buttons out, partially because those are the only people left playing the game. I don't know what the best solution is, someone is at bamco spending probably more than 40 hours a week trying to figure it out, but the only way that t8 would truly be unsalvageable is if the core game was just bad, and it isn't. They could totally rework the heat mechanic, remove the heat mechanic, nerf it in a billion ways, recontextualize it, remove heat engagers, make heat use your rage... I mean, the sky's the limit really.

[@nearlydead7510]

@@snizzle6174 Heat burst is nowhere near a get-out-of-jail-for-free-card. It got heavily nerfed months ago and it gets easily beaten by sidesteps/throws/fast lows. It kinda sucks as a defensive option, at least against good players, or ones that know of the existence of sidesteps. They need to disable launch properties of heat engagers that normally don't launch, delete high power crush heat engagers asap and make mid heat smashes minus on block so they don't give mixups (give them power crush property instead, I guess).

[@snizzle6174]

@@nearlydead7510 I mean it used to be tracking and they nerfed it because everyone hated that. Heat burst is still powerful as a really fast plus on hit or block armored move - which as far as I know basically every other armored move is minus or punishable. you don't want your get out of jail free card to have zero counterplay. Yeah, I think making them really minus might be too far, but nerfing the frames to -1, 0, or +1 would be plenty so you really only get slight initiative - that's already a crazy big nerf They don't need power crush property, that's hilariously degenerate imo, they can just not have plus frames since they're already incredible damaging tools.

[@Ronbotnik]

Someone once said, that Tekken 8 is just DOA without the counter hold system. Ever since I heard that its been painfully clear how badly T8 needs to greatly tone down its offense, or give us some sort of "combo breaker" mechanic

[@hands-ongaming7180]

U can deal with it you just can’t run away all day. Boooooo hoooooooo

[@unecessaryupdates6016]

4:00 I've been saying it. THIS is the reason why Bamco doesn't bother much on making the fans happy. Tekken has no competition in the 3D FG space. No matter how messed up their decisions are, you'll still be saying the same thing as Joka here: "i'll keep playing, I love Tekken"

[@Ivight]

And that might change if Virtua Fighter brings the heat. A new VF is announced, so ill keep an eye on it.

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

Been saying this since T8 came out. No competition means that you can basically do whatever you want. I’m glad VF’s coming back. Hopefully it’ll make Bandai actually try to balance their game

[@Brandonweifu]

​@@Ivightpppfffttt 😂😂😂 grandpa vf better bring new stuff or they can go back to the retirement home

[@Ivight]

@@Brandonweifu i totally agree. If they keep the game the way it was, it wont grow.

[@user-hf2zi8bk6r]

I feel like they tried to make every character overpowered, so it has a very small entry difficulty, the game is made for casuals. Every character is so good and well rounded, no character is complete garbage. And even if your favorite streamer put Panda or Devil Jin in C Tier, doesnt mean you didnt got clapped by those chars atleast once. We need more weaknesses and they need to be something like Asukas jab game is absolute garbage. Opening the enemy with paul is extremly hard, shit like that.

[@Iamhappy_22]

The fact that safe powercrush heat engagers exist is still baffling to me, and not only that but there's a lot of homing powercrushes too that are safe like what????? People rank up by JUST spamming those moves 😑

[@bry0]

B4 2 1 🗣

[@hamzehmaswadeh2755]

The main thing is that the heat and 50-50 is tiring , the game doesn’t have identity nowadays

[@BCDC123]

Nina doesn’t require execution? That’s a first.

[@infinitesurge9641]

Yeah I’m really tired of everyone saying Nina is an easy character to learn and doesn’t require any execution. Even the Namco patch notes say Nina is a very technical and hard character. She’s one of the most technical and advanced characters in the game no contest.

[@azteckjumbie9344]

Y'all still hiding Bs behind Execution in T8 is pathetic

[@sxcaars__6563]

@@azteckjumbie9344same mfs that were complaining about akuma never gave af bout his execution now using it as an excuse to vindicate their own mains lmao

[@BCDC123]

@@azteckjumbie9344 It’s funny, every time I ask what nerfs specifically does Nina need, you MFs can never give reasonable answers. One of the panelists literally said, “she just does crazy chyt” I sure wish Nina had an unblockable low that you can’t parry, or a flash move like Yoshimitsu. They even took away her ability to full combo you clowns who still don’t know how to duck her evil mist breath 😂

[@BCDC123]

@@sxcaars__6563 Nina’s a scrub killer at this point. You’re probably one of those MFs who still has trouble ducking Nina’s guns 😂 gtfo

[@datboyches305]

I love Tekken but why do I have to play rock, paper, scissors shoot every time my opponent heat dash at me? And then when I guess wrong half of my life is gone. I really love Tekken but that heat mechanic is way too powerful. Rage art needs to be nerf as well.

[@DaveMate93]

It’s a mess alright-with the current state of balance, nonsensical tracking, incredibly forced 50/50s, and weird oki situations. I reached Tekken God Supreme and then it just felt like I was getting worse and more frustrated with the game the more I played. It saddens me as a long-time Tekken fan, and that’s why I won’t be coming back to the game until something really significant happens on these fronts in Season 2.

[@thorcolossus]

You shouldn’t be sad. The reality of it is that this is basically the arcade release. Every Tekken had at least a year in arcade to fine tune and stress test the game mechanics. The devs already said the big changes are coming S2. All we have to do is communicate and be civil and reasonable with our criticisms. Besides Drag, Jin, Yoshi and super high Alisa players (most Alisa players are straight garbage @ the game lol), the balance isn’t that bad. The real issues are forced 50/50 from heat, some tracking, and heat not being earned like a meter. Having full access to heat every round is not good. Have it to where we have to earn it. So basically, rage arts can only be done once a match and heat has to be earned. Game fixed.

[@shenelljohnson74]

Damn no wonder your rank says it all desperate players want to win the game have no chill

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

@@thorcolossus I doubt they're ever changing their mutant hybrid netcode, so anything else is moot past that point.

[@thorcolossus]

@@HighLanderPonyYT improving netcode in a niche genre such as fighting game , is a three headed hydra. Most of the time, online stability is held together by duct tape, chewing gum and spit. When they do improve the netcode, it will take a little time. I’d give it until mid S2 by the time they improve it more.

[@FerventFourEyes]

This is noone's fault but Bamco. Trying to appeal to casuals who would never be loyal to the series in the first place.

[@apex_predator9401]

THIS!

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

Tf you mean never be loyal? We were all casuals once. We ain’t come to this game to try be pros in the first place

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

Nonsense. Appealing to casuals is fine if done right. Crap netcode, BP, MTX, and day-0 DLC among other things, that isn't fine.

[@BhosdikeSaale]

​@@j.i.nthenobody54 u will never be loyal to t8 if this was ur first tekken game. Going pro in t8 is soo hard

[@DivekickAddict]

Send this to harada & murray 100%

[@shenelljohnson74]

Fans: ahhhh harada Lars, law Lili needs some buff AHHHHHH why is Yoshi and Lidia so bad AHHHHHH harada you gotta buff Lars he feels like TK7 all over again AHHHHHH harada: 🤦‍♂️

[@tekkn_579]

It’s too late, they won’t scrap the system.

[@burni988]

Joka is so funny. "They have to change EVERYTHING". Spag: "What is everything?" Joka: "These Yoshi and Nina players." Like he's calling for the devs to execute the yoshi and nina mains? 🤣🤣😭😭

[@Jeff.Kollects]

Great conversation. Thank you for this!

[@Wolfsays]

This the SF5 argument. Making T8 accessible is making it to easy. High execution, one frame links, defensive options is what made the games early.

[@GFClocked]

Sako combos are still impressive, because it took me *thousands* of hours in the lab to do them, and he did them *in tournaments* where the pressure is massive. Games these days just don't have this angle whatsoever..

[@EsuEsuEsuuu]

"All sliding characters are an issue" *looks at Lee that doesnt down people after slide*

[@z-rossi3672]

Nerfing mid heat smashes across the board would do the game a lot of good. On block they get a 50/50 on hit some can wall splat and lead to insane dmg, and the ones that dont are hitting for around 60 dmg (which is still great dmg). When you look at low heat smashes theyre all punishable on block, and victors is launch punishable, thats a healthier state for a powerful button

[@burni988]

I do wonder how Tekken players will feel about VF6 if any of them try it. Full disclosure I know nothing basically nothing about VF but I watched a video by rooflemonger yesterday who explained some of how it works, and it sounds similar to Tekken 8 in that it forces you to make a ton of decisions in a short space of time which would make it mentally taxing. However the main difference seemed to be that in VF you seemed to always have an option to make an active play regardless of how minus you are (assuming you weren't punishably minus). Maybe if Tekken were more like that, people wouldn't mind the aggression as much.

[@dev1on]

Im just starting this vid…i hope they bring up these phantom hitboxes. Im so fkn tired of being hit by heat or heat engager from what appears to be a foot and a half of space between me and the move. Soon as it happens i literally feel the joy draining from my soul😂

[@Sakura-Pixie]

Phantom range is definitely more prominent in T8 😓 it's tiring to deal with.

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

reduce all character's damage by 30%, buff lateral movement, remove forced 50/50s that aren't earned, and give us unlimited rematches. bam, the game is now perfect

[@redmecka304]

Make that damage reduction combo damage and I’ll get behind that.

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

@@redmecka304 good observation

[@blueheel2887]

Didn't Harada and the devs say at one point before launch, that the game was ready for release in the previous calendar year? And that they decided not to release T8 because the releases of SF6 and other titles...? Could have released earlier yet this is the state of the game....?

[@midaignesvittu]

They didn not say such thing!

[@JotakuJo]

They actually did.​@@midaignesvittu

[@Danyboyx]

Chip damage was the worst thing to ever happen to Tekken. Remove that and then heat instantly becomes less annoying

[@Judgment]

I'm guessing you mean this iteration of chip/block damage, considering that it's been a thing since Tekken 3 (but not relevant enough to warrant it as a viable system mechanic considering the fallbacks when applied).

[@KFSENSEI]

Die by blocking, is kinda sad

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

@@KFSENSEIyou can’t even die by blocking. Chip doesn’t kill, and all chip damage is recoverable health

[@dvjxnz]

@@j.i.nthenobody54thats not the point ?

[@magnusgundersen2779]

I cannot fathom why they "dumbed" down the game in Tekken 8. Hopefully they will adjust some of the stupidest stuff like Heat enganging Power crush. Wouldnt be to sad to see unbreakable throws / lows get a major nerf or removal.

[@Iam_Stu]

Because everyone for the lifespan of tekken 7 talked about how hard tekken is, and how hard it is for new players to get into it. Businesses dont want to hear that. They want to bring in new people and keep them.

[@GerardoFirestorm]

Joka is a first class hypocrite, on twitter he only asks for nerfs for everyone except his main.

[@npaz24]

Yeah man heihachi has a lot of forced fifty fifty stuff plus he has something that breaks 1 specific rule of t8 He deletes your recoverable health And also his 2nd main feng is a fifty fifty character but more like in a defensive counter way

[@inixi8ocelot]

@@npaz24 tbf, Hei can only do that once per match.

[@npaz24]

@@inixi8ocelot and thats still not fair

[@inixi8ocelot]

@@npaz24 while other characters can delete recoverable health for every round?

[@TheLaxed]

@@npaz24 are you high? Drag gets the change to land a blue spark tackle every round which removes recoverable health and Heihachi doing it for 1 round is not fair?????

[@TheJustinHit]

I agree, Tekken 8 sucks as a competitive game. Especially with no ELO system. Hopefully by Season 5 it's a much better game.

[@thelastone5457]

Changes need to be made to the power crush heat engagers, power crush functionality (some characters have it as overly tuned to work with their move set), the never ending 50/50, heat smash speed (some characters are almost instantaneous while others take forever to start), and the damage output of characters that just seem to do non-stop combos.

[@Ritualsrevenge]

EVERY. MOVE. TRACKS.

[@xravenx24fe]

Whats the point of discourse if the players and fans together unite in being unashamedly biased? People will pretend game balance is some objective metric when something exists that they dont like but they have all the charity, nuance, and mercy ready for the things they like like their mains lol.

[@Mysterio382]

Doing the God's work Spag!

[@grzib]

I play since Tekken 3 and Tekken 8 is the worst tekken so far

[@inixi8ocelot]

T4 is still the worst.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

3 was peak.

[@Delta_Angel]

T8 being worst than T4 is crazy but everyone had their opinions.

[@NameTakenSensei]

I'd just change it so heat dash can't trigger on block.

[@Kenkyou_Nogata]

Genuinely think since heat is in Tekken's core. Maybe have beefy defense as well in heat. Like a complete reversal, get-off me and a big back-away like Alisa does that eats away at heat.

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

Defense heat options would help this game out a lot. Guard cancels like in KOF, a heat parry, or even a combo breaker would help

[@TheProswagonist]

There's a fine line between aggression and oppression. And too often it feels like the game leans into the latter. It's too easy to just get mixed by everyone when for so many other tekkens, you had to earn the right to mix up your opponent. Also all heat smashes need to be easy to whiff punish. It's also stupid when you step someone like Drag or Alisa only them to fly halfway across the stage and not get any whiff punish.

[@MisterBlackout]

literally what made me almost uninstall being punished for good decisions

[@AK-sw1nj]

Drag just needs to be deleted. There’s no other option.

[@danielsacilotto6235]

The biggest issue is that in making every character into a 50-50 rushdown pressure machine, we lose character identity, and after a while the game starts to feel very samey. Heat just dumbs this even further, since it basically adds a limited roster of overpowered stupidity that people abuse. Characters are both too well rounded and too strong. Nerfing horizontal movement and giving characters huge range covering moves just makes the game feel more claustrophobic. Combos are way too long... I personally have gotten pretty bored with it.

[@lazyalpaca556]

Rage art needs to be once a match. Also I think the old way people use to dash and wave dash out the way should be more accessible to everyone people play this on keyboard, pad , controller and it’s not really even execution wise

[@jamesfosterjr9515]

I feel like the heat system should be broken up where like at character select you can choose the type of heat ability you use like just heat smash, or just combo extenders, or just chip damage. You just get access to one of these instead of all of them.

[@danielelia2256]

Kuma shitiing electrics for 20 sec killed me hahaha

[@niconicon90]

Watching Spag live. Great commentary!

[@GerardoFirestorm]

Neither themainman (Big influencer) or these pro players (I btch when i lose) can do an appropriate detail list about character or game balance

[@PhuckChumster]

If they were able to do this they'd be devs

[@_ldb22]

Knee starts figuring out Tekken 8 and all of a sudden Bryan is a strong competitive character. Not saying he’s not, but he wasn’t a part of this commentary prior.

[@Viewer13128]

But isn't it true? None of the top Bryan players ever did well in Tekken 8 from what I recall until Knee started to main Bryan again then I see Knee's Bryan in top 2 recently.

[@GiovanniBallerinii]

​@@Viewer13128don't know if you consider it a bad result but Mr. Naps was top 15th at Evo and the one he lost to was Ulsan

[@afaqfakki6930]

​@@Viewer13128a youtuber in Pakistan just won with bryan. Where every Pakistani pro player was there. Hammad bryan many times made top 2 losing only to atif. Nothing new.

[@AB-wb9kg]

The only Bryans making it to top 8 in tournaments are the ones played by their loyalist You won't see a single Bryan in top 8 which isn't played by a Bryan loyalist. Because bryan requires you to work hard unlike dragunov who is played by most and easily makes it to top 8. Bryan is definitely strong but still requires fundamentals and execution (especially in tournaments and higher level play)

[@TK_TheFURY]

I disagree on feng not having forced 50/50s. I can think of 6 situations and I haven't even tried feng yet.

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

14:55 they had the opportunity to normalize frame status through block animation. we could have the same exact block animation for +10, +12, +13, +14 and +15 or more, so we would know a move's frames without having to lab it. I honestly don't know why they didn't do that

[@ivaerz4977]

Lets just bring back Tekken 6

[@michelleh1464]

agree

[@benzhq563]

Yeah and pick bob 24/7

[@FUJIN-UCHIHA]

Nobody gonna talk about guard breaks the most ridiculous mechanic in game

[@DragonWarrior95t]

Stuffs breaking the guard, the forced grab after the duck and unbreakable throws should be changed as well.

[@circa2008]

great talk guys. i will say this, after tekken 7 being too daunting for years and years for a top 1% counter strike player like me, tekken 8 did things right in terms of bringing in new players. Lgeacy knowwledge is still rewarded, but doesnt dominate every match of every game now. If I was a legacy player I would feel my hard work was undermined, but I would be happy we got a lot of new players, something tekken was struggling very very badly from.

[@Williamdealing]

I think they intentionally limited ranked to first to three because the randomness of the game causes diminishing returns each round.

[@branbelmont326]

Chip needs to be taken out or severely crippled. Buffing back dash sounds like a good idea too but the chip makes this game so much more stressful than it needs to be especially when you’re always locked down by plus frames. Defense needs to be buffed to meet the aggressive nature of the game or else you’re left with game that’s just gonna piss you off

[@dannyrpt]

Holy Feng downplay😂😂

[@infinitesurge9641]

If Nina was truly “broken”, OP and requires absolutely no execution, then why doesn’t anyone hardly anyone use her? The top 8 should always have 6 unstoppable Nina’s, right? Also, yes they made her easier to play, but she is still a very technical character and requires execution do get the most out of her. Even the latest Namco patch stated she’s a very technical and difficult character to learn and they created the character.

[@basedalex]

Because Dragunov is in the similar power level and is easier to play, some pros discovered her strength really late into the patch and cba switching. Right now there is no reason to switch to her, because of s2 coming and probably major nerfs to top3 characters after twt.

[@infinitesurge9641]

@@basedalex Good point. Thoughtful.

[@dvjxnz]

because drag is easier. thats it.

[@FinalFlame12345]

I’m enjoying the game as a casual and as a competitive player. To completely overhaul the mechanics and make it more difficult and less fun will turn off a lot of the new players who have already been sticking around.

[@subzerosanijs]

Guess I'm too low to understand, but in my eyes Feng is THE 50/50 character, i'm currently stuck in red ranks and the only way i win Feng is if i predict some of the 50/50 pokes or launchers that he has a lot of.

[@yungslack7311]

Fengs strings are bad just dont get baited by backstep shoulder

[@MisterBlackout]

Early on alot of Fengs do dangerous moves that are very punishable, or they panic evade into a linear move that you can step. High powercrush is very duckable and you can duck alot of his options

[@ettoreozzy9932]

Here is a change I think they should do to ALL heat smashs, if you whiff make it don't make the other attacks like they did with Azucena running move. So it becomes easier to deal with and people using heat smash can still get the 50/50 after it's on block but now the people using HAVE to make sure it hits otherwise the move doesn't continue. Dragunov heat smash is so fast is difficult to punish after first hit whiffs and he can almost make a full 180 to hit you with the other attacks. It makes punishing whiffed heat smash so difficult and inconsistent across the board. And I say to make this change since I know they want this game to be aggressive so you can still keep that aspect on block still being positive but you then give a bone to the person on the defensive there, because if you try to punish a whiff heat smash and you are wrong now you are eating counter hit damage and sometimes it just feels like it's just better to just stay there holding back, take the chip and now try to guess the 50/50 instead of actually engaging the situation.

[@FreeAimDog]

i wish i knew how to boost kick better with alisa in this game, i saw a pretty decent alisa player fight bots and they made alisa boost attack so much the bot could not touch the ground, i want to be that good some day i know alisa can be fun for me to play if i can keep the boost movement consistent.

[@OsirisMawn]

Tekken 8 doesn't look as engaging as 7 honestly

[@ALPHA-SOLIDUS]

You got to be highly specific with the issues concerning yoshimitsu, stop foolin'.

[@momzilla2010]

Love Tekken been playing since T2 and I think T8 is good and getting better.

[@HolySok]

Yeah it's clearly crazy and oppressive but I'm glad they tried to switch things up and go in a different direction than T7. Some things aren't working for people but that's the positive thing about Live Service Tekken and previously the Arcade Eras. They can take feedback and try and make a better game.

[@Guitarzannn]

I actually like what Phidx said about certain Heat engage moves potentially not being +5 (like blonde bomb) anymore - but maybe just neutral or my turn, because that what still make it cool for casual players. Which is a point I feel kokkoma and joka ( and other sweaty dudes lol ) maybe don't get as much as phidx (whose videos speak to a wide range of players both hig and low level) and rip. the game needs to work for everyone and that is the hard task at hand. I still love T8 but i also cannot play it for too long, cuz my mind gets tired. I would sincerely love to see the FT2 be gon e at LEAST for quick matches... that, in my opinion would make it sooo much less taxing on the brain already, you can focus and learn one specific matchup for much longer. Naturally u can create sessions and groups etc etc it would be soo convenient non the less.

[@jesfavor831]

I also have a problem with guard crush moves and installs. Like what are the criteria that qualify a handful of characters to have them and the rest don't?

[@pivorsc]

not all of us can play 12h a day, as someone with full time job playing only few hours in the weekend, i have a blast in T8

[@carlostapia8840]

Imagine thinking is a good idea having a mechanic what is defensive, plus on block and jump the neutral in heat =) powecrusher heat engagers , i would like to know what smoke the devs when they decided that.

[@KulaGGin]

This game is a meme. What should be done: 1. Remove tracking from all moves back to T5/6 level. It means remove the homing moves. 2. Nerf draconian plus on hit lows(Bryan qcb3) and plus on block mid universally on all chars: plus on hit low or a plus on block mid can't let you frame trap the opponent with a launcher or a knock down move, or a move with a follow up move. 3. Balance safe on whiff launchers(nh or ch), such as Steve's b1, electrics. That means either removing the reward significantly: removing the launcher properties, so a move doesn't even give a follow up, so in this case I'd just make b1 and electrics just give a knock down(no follow ups). Or increasing the risk significantly: it launches on successful ch or nh and it launches, but if you whiff, you can get whiff punished with a launcher yourself. Those changes applied universally throughout the cast would fix the game. It would also apply to heat and rage, of course.

[@HolySok]

I think Homing Moves should stay. Like Official homing moves I mean that are designed to best sidesteps. But you can nerf tracking from the majority of Regulsr Moves. And maybe even buff some homing Moves a bit. So Sidesteps are really powerful but there's a good counter if you have a read that someone will try and step or sidewalk you.

[@lycanshithrope6956]

How would they balance heat in a way to keep the individual characters identity? Actually I might've solved it. I like the individual moves that get buffed because of heat so keep those. Make heat dash a combo specific thing only and remove heat smash . Heat engagers can stay since it's the most reliable way to go into heat.

[@nadavzip]

Imo they need to remove chip damage when your’e not in heat. And maybe also nerf the amount of chip damage dealt while in heat. Beyond that, I think punishing moves should be easier i.e extending recovery frames on blocked moves for both player.

[@nyrva2876]

Totally agree, this game is just a guess game. What's aggravating is that the damage is too high so, one wrong guess, you're down to 50% hp at least. Get up and guess wrong again, you're dead.

[@applejuice8751]

What about giving heat system only once/game? + buffing kbd? That should balance each game out a little between both offense and defence?

[@Sakon201]

Basically Joka: why is Yoshi playable now? Also Joka: Feng is fine

[@henrihl6264]

Im so glad i dropped the game too. Its exausting and demonic like league of legends. it litterally turns people into human trash

[@KRizmaTV]

I think the heat system homogenizes every character to a big extent and gifts them easy to access plus frames out of nowhere, which results in more 50/50s which are more enforced with nerfed movement like it currently is. Tekken 6 was always my favorite Tekken followed by TTT2 and T5DR. People forget that Tekken used to be known for having no meter bar and no flashy gimmicks but still being highly enjoyable, because it was all about fundamentals. I miss those times

[@RichiePajooh-r8i]

I main shaheen and i don’t disagree with nerfs or buffs. It’s really hard to say without balancing game mechanics first. I would say revert his f2,3 on hit. power crush heat engagers are fine but i would make power crush once per match. I don’t know if that’s viable but I do use his power crush too much. I would like more moves for shaheen and perhaps easier combo routes or at least his advanced combos are behind a clear skill gap as stealth step cancels are not easy. Doing while standing 3 loops is the execution barrier there to high damage least with shaheen. i think shaheen will be fine if and key word if they balance system mechanics properly. that being said im a character loyalist. I want all characters to be strong and there be clear skill gap player expression through play and style ie a combination of the character and the player using them. Right now play styles are too homogenized.

[@OmniManEmpire]

I think right now the most honset char are probably Lars and Raven since those 2 ahs a lot of weaknesses and can be counter easly

[@Panic_Doctor]

Bro if you said luyg rip was in this id watch it asap!

[@simonalexander1556]

It isn't just one character. I can post multiple videos of me (a humble raijin) being completely jailed out out rounds. Not just losing but not even able to play. After a certain point it isn't even fun anymore. A system change would be nice whatever that actually means.

[@hattorihanzo8788]

One issue also is the hitbox. It seems like they increased the size in Tekken 8... 😅

[@gabereell]

It annoys me how PhiDX is the only one to see Tekken 8 for it's own merits. He doesn't downplay, he has fun with the game, and he actively uplifts the community instead of mindlessly dragging it down. He has accepted Tekken 8 as it is instead of living in the past. If you actually interact with the game mechanics and your opponent I just don't see how the game is only 50/50. I see Joka's critique about how some of the characters are way overblown and create those situations far easier than others but here is my take. We have seen Bamco hit with the last 2 DLC characters. They have found the sweetspot with Lidia and Heihachi. This shows me that they now understand how to balance characters with the context of this game's mechanics in mind. I have a lot of faith in them to balance Season 2 and I hope people don't doomer hard enough to kill the game before then.

[@fredericksmith7013]

The issue is that, imo, there is not a community in the FGC more toxic and elitist then the Tekken community. It really feels like the only people who want Tekken 8 to succeed are like. Sajam and PhiDX man, everyone else just wants to open the same exact arguments they had towards Tekken 7 (game isn't real Tekken!! You'd lose so bad if you did this in TTT2!!!) instead of trying to give any real criticism. No one is saying 8 is perfect, the game clearly has its flaws and we need to see that, but some people really want to drag Tekken back to like the Tekken 5 era with this nonsense "fox only no items fd" ass talk of what is and isn't "real Tekken". Lots of people mad for good reason too, the games a mess and they made a massively bad decision to not let the games launch patch cook with the community for more then a few days before immediately launching us into a serious, world wide competitive season, locking them into needing to be careful with how they approach balance and balance patches. If you ask me it seems the team is well aware what the issues are, especially with the recent patch aimed at nerfing how insane the tracking is on strings and of course chip damage (existing at all imo) being way too high. Criticism is important but just screaming "ThIS iSnT rEAl TeKkEN!!!!!!!!!!" Doesn't get anyone anywhere and is getting really annoying really quick. I've learned to mute that but I remember how fucking awful it felt to find a new game, try my heart out, get to a rank I felt good with, and then have the entire community tell me I'm garbage actually because Tekken 7 wasn't real Tekken. This sort of shit will only keep people from wanting to play the game, and some of y'all are delusional enough to think that's a good thing, but would you rather Tekken be buried right next to VF and SC while the only FGs out there are Street Fighter and ArcSys games and not have any option for a 3D fighter?

[@markkim1356]

@@fredericksmith7013 hey man just whatever you do, dont check playerbase changes for each month and compare it to t7, dont look at tournament/youtube/twitch viewership and compare it to exactly 1 year ago. heres the objective reasoning, the game is fucking dying. no one wants to play this dogshit bland t8, you have sellouts hypocrites like chipotledx who dont even play the game competitively anymore, publicly said he doesnt enjoy anyone other than noctis but says t8 is a great game! =D u guys are so fucking gullible its insane

[@MisterBlackout]

@@fredericksmith7013SF and guilty gear are phenomenal games with flushed out defense and offense. Unfortunately though there are ranks that are just low and calling it out seems elitist but it is true. All games have people that complain but there are very few serious players that enjoy the game.

[@superruikiri]

Powercrushes should be minus on block... i mean their job is to go through moves! If you get blocked, you essentially whiffed, that should stop mindless crushing

[@Araragi298]

We definitely need to nerf the entire cast and the heat system. Not to the point of killing the original vision, but just enough to let defensive play shine through again. Less tracking on every string in the game. Heat dash from punishable moves shouldn't be +5. Heat smashes in general do waaaay too much chip on block, forcing the mixup is bad enough.

[@Dumah36]

It's not gonna likely see system based changes. They may add but it'll likely add more problems. If I get to the highest rank here I won't really say anything since this feels like the SFV of Tekken. Guess twice and lose or win.

[@ishansingh2222]

1.) I would like to suggest the most obvious adjustment to get the heat system right, that would be to make it earnable. It should not be available from the start of every round. It would reduce a lot of pressure shit. 2.) Ofc the power crush heat engages should be removed, but let the high power xrush heat engagers be, bcoz they are done with a risk so it should be acceptable. 3.) Nerf Character's moves, and pls don't down play your characters. 4.) Reduce the plus frames in heat. 5.) Pls let us punish rage art with our rage art, I know its not imp change but its very satisfying. 6.) Buff backdash a bit so that these pros stop crying and get chance to be able to play safe all the time like T7. 7.) Try to improve the net code pls, its giving some ppl very bad match ups. 8.) Give some more convenience in the game like able to search sessions by name of the host. 9.) Stop making the dlc's stance based, its really bad, let them be how they should be. I think that's all is required. I thought the homing throws were ok, bcoz EVERY OTHER FIGHTING GAME HAS IT, but you guys got it nerfed 😔. Idk why tekken ppl do that. Anyways that's all. These things will improve the game a lot and maybe make it the best Tekken so far. I hope all the haters get to understand the beauty Tekken 8 can achieve😇. Peace

[@brandonrodriguez7343]

Every character is 50/50 just not everyone has as many

[@BlackSiphoNz]

Take out the auto run on activation so plus frame ain't so insane and more places for drops because I think this is way more fun and competitive. Just make harder combos done

[@v.m.6549]

Yeah blocking a heat smash just to have to take a guess its just dumb, they should be the ones blocking/ss/parrying

[@BerserKEB26]

Power Crush + Heat Engager + Tracking Move in 1 move = wtf