The Goth Umbrella: Gatekeepers, Poseurs and Historicity

We're speaking with Natasha Sharf about goth drama, debating whether goth is an umbrella term or not, exploring the impact of goth fashion leaking into the mainstream and much more!
/ natashascharf
Authored Books: www.thriftbooks.com/a/natasha...
Prog Magazine: www.loudersound.com/prog
Young Limbs Numb Hymns: younglimbsriseagain.tmstor.es/
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/ cemeteryconfessions
Intro 00:00
Turning Goth 2:41
Is goth too serious 11:00
Influence 20:30
Meltdown Magazine 25:28
What is Goth Music 35:30
The Goth Umbrella 45:55
Goth Fashion and Transgression 59:34
How has Goth Changed 1:08:38
Music 1:17:15
Sexism 1:27:00
Goth vs. Gothic 1:31:30
Zines 1:33:00
Outro 1:41:30
Post Show Musings 1:46:30

[@acheleg]

The ironic first rule of goth- to never use the word goth as a self- descriptor. Simultaneoulsl enjoying dark humor and having a great capacity for empathy

[@enriquecabrera2137]

lol "follow the rules of thje cult or you wont be allowed in it" lol

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

But it’s a good keyword to use for Google. What else are you going to use?

[@Ralodosmovo]

Very happy to hear the mention of how there's more to goth than just the music. Some have been saying music is literally the only thing there is to it and in a sense been trying to take the goth out of goth so to speak.

[@closurehascomex]

I would say the modern scene has branched out a little bit - to me the definitive sound of the late 2010s-2020s is the modern "coldwave" subgenre, which really does not sound like the original coldwave label and doesn't quite fit the sound of original darkwave or ebm (which these bands also often get classified as). I'm referring to mainly the synthy side of things, which takes more inspiration from industrial and often doesn't even use guitars. Ultra Sunn, Sydney Valette, and Shad Shadows come to mind as examples of musicians that are very much popular in the goth scene nowadays and have this sort of sound.

[@jenevievevan-veda4886]

It is interesting that Natasha mentions Ghostfire as an example of something which could be considered goth but exists under a different label. The lead singer: Gary Emmins is a "Batcave Era" goth. So this nests nicely in the Mick Mercer theory of goth music. He has also created music under different genres such as Folk Punk, all with a dark melancholic undertone reminiscent of his goth influences.

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Bands like Valentine Wolfe, Feral Ghosts and Frenchy & The Punk play steampunk conventions and they all have a goth sound to me: Metal classical goth, gothic rock and cabaret goth, respectively. :)

[@Lola-od7hn]

Great to hear Natasha, I used to look forward so much to my copies of Meltdown

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Yeah, I am looking her up and in my ‘zine box for issues. I used to collect any goth or industrial magazine in the 90s when I would see them at bookstores or indie music stores. I like how they come with an eyeliner or CD. :)

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

I need to also look through the box because there is a metal magazine called Meltdown as well.

[@CreightonChaney-io4xv]

Remember, Goth is liberation not confinement We're always welcoming different types of people and you don't have to be "goth" while attending your first club My friend introduced me to a friend who wasn't goth per se but she said to me that the ladies are wonderful and the men are gentlemen She said to me that I was the most polite person and complimented my dance moves 🖤🪦💀

[@Cyauuu]

Such a great episode. ​​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​I love hearing the perspectives from other people who have been a part of the community for years. What an informative episode

[@aytakk]

Great interview. I also agree with the goth genre vs things goths like view taken. And yes, in recent times it really does feel like people take things way too seriously and have forgotten how to lsugh at themselves or appreciate satire and parody. This makes me want to read her books.

[@-RONNIE]

As always I want to thank everyone involved in the video it was really good & I enjoyed it very much. Personally I don't think it's that difficult to understand what the subculture is all about. From the beginning until now it hasn't changed only certain aspects of it has in good & bad ways.

[@Graphiel_Corbeau]

Thanks a lot for that very interesting conversation. I also like the Idea of an umbrella to describe our subculture too, but in my opinion it shouldn´t be called Goth, but Gothic. Let me explain it a little bit: The term gothic is considerably older than the punk subculture and was already used in the romantic era to describe a mood that could be associated with melancholic, darkness, depressing or hopeless. One thinks of the gothic novels such as Frankenstein and Castle of Otranto. These works arose not only from a longing for another world, but often also from an inner melancholy towards their present. Mary Shelly in particular saw in her creation Frankenstein not only the vision of a possible future, but also herself in the role of that socially outcast monster. In my opinion, this “gothic mood" can also be found in the early Goth scene and its music, which was still very much linked to punk. However, there is the problem that moods are something that is perceived very individually. Just because I feel something deeply melancholy in piece of music x doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. So can I objectively judge whether, for example, a cybergoth feels something different in his music than I feel in goth rock, darkwave or postpunk? I don't think so. For me, the Gothicumbrealla is a much more appropriate term, as it encompasses all the different carriers of a mood. But this does not bury the Goth subculture as an independent part of this umbrella. For me, Goth simply occupies one very special form among many, through which the basic gothic mood is transported to the outside world. As a result, I don't feel it's gatekeeping to let someone know that their way of living out the gothic mood can and may be gothic as part of the gothic umbrella, but doesn't automatically have to be goth. Finally, to come back to romanticism, perhaps a little thought experiment that can make the whole thing a little more understandable: An author like Horace Walpole made a significant contribution to giving a mood the name, that we know as gothic, but hopefully no one would seriously claim that Walpole was used to be the first Goth. 😉 greetings from germany

[@AC-dk4fp]

Castle of Otranto is way pre-Romantic, Horace Walpole was dead for 20 years before Frankenstein was released. Even The Sorrows of Young Werther on the German side is a pre-Romantic work but I don't know if Sturm und Drang is seen as seperate to Romanticism in Germany. Its definitely kind of artificial to insist that Romanticism is a reaction to 'The Enlightenment' and therefore they can't overlap which is the general consensus in English. The actual setting of the novel Frankenstein isn't very 'Gothic' and most of the Gothic visual cliches for Frankenstein were added by Hollywood not Mary Shelley. Jane Austen wrote her Gothic parody novel Northanger Abbey in 1803, 6 years before the birth of Edgar Allen Poe whose Gothic works were basically pastiches of a dead genre. Its heroine might be the first stereotyped Goth in at least the English literary canon if Walpole can't be counted as a Goth.

[@megmcguigan3857]

Great episode and I am in agreement with most of what was said. However, it really feels like there has been a rise in online spaces lately of right winged conservatives claiming to be the 'real' goths. Also, there seems to be a lot of metal-heads coming into goth online spaces carrying their racist tropes. I don't know how this all translates into the goth club scene since I don't participate in that any longer. I just finished a book that I think you may like; Vulture Capitalism by Grace Blakeley. It is a seriously good book as to why we are where we are right now when it comes to capitalism and society as a whole.

[@Chill-mm4pn]

Well said, I agree that there's a strange uprising of conservativesbcoming into the space. Also I feel that things are serious online because of so much misinformation as well as negative portrayals of us online. I remember being an angry teen goth with my goth police badge in the early 2000s.😂 At the age of thirty eight I try to dispel misinformation in a tactful way while providing music suggestions for those who are curious. 🖤

[@megmcguigan3857]

@@Chill-mm4pn I have never had a negative comment about how I look where I live now. In fact I get complements a lot, mostly my hair and clothes. I had a lady ask me where to get 'alternative' clothes for her daughter for Christmas and I talked to her about Etsy. I'm 53 years old and have MS and use a cane. I want to be an urban legend eventually. LOL

[@Cyauuu]

Oh wow I’m not that involved in the online scene. I didn’t know this was happening. What has been the general response to that in online spaces?

[@megmcguigan3857]

@@Cyauuu They are mostly pushed out of goth online spaces but not always.

[@chrisgraves1799]

one of the wierdest things that hascome to pass with this scene, is that it never really was considered a scene before...when i was in high school i was always called "the dead kid" who hung out with the "dead kids and wierdos"... if they could only see me now, that it was NEVER a phase and i've stayed the same...if not worse for wear,in their eyes😅🖤💜🖤

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Abney Park was a goth band. Then they changed their clothes and “became” steampunk. I know there was some grumpiness from goths about this being a sellout thing. But, as someone who does workshops at steampunk conventions, we don’t make that much money! :)

[@rustythewolf1009]

1:05:02 That's me, I'm "some kid." I got into goth because of alt fashion tiktoks

[@Soundspheremag]

Great insight!

[@robertpetre9378]

Great interview

[@samuelpenn2973]

Very interesting conversation, many valid points made. I agree that it takes a certain amount of level of being at easy with yourself to be able to laugh at whatever it is that the newly converted take so very seriously.

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Bands like Valentine Wolfe, Feral Ghosts, Frenchy & The Punk play steampunk conventions. Like they say…steampunk is when gothic black ages to sepia! So much dark folk like Eli August and The Gin Rebellion too.

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Steampunk = goth adjacent as Dieselpunk = EBM/industrial adjacent (Electroswing). :)

[@JhonNye96]

Weirdly enough As an american goth i feel reading JTHM made me stop taking myself so seriously before that i was the stereotypical angsty moody goth

[@greekvampy3690]

In amrica goth is a pronown u can use it as a gender too as I found out on the public bus in the country suberbs in californa

[@greekvampy3690]

Goth identy is still a thing its now called darkly inclined