What is Goth?

For today’s episode, we are going to give our postmortem on the goth scene in 2018. We’ll also be discussing where we stand on the proposition of defining goth including the major contentions and schools of thought around that issue. We’ll review the new album from Ghostland offer our sinister suggestions and more!
If you enjoy the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon!
/ cemeteryconfessions
Our 2018 in Goth Wrap-up
News: 16:56
The Neverending Goth Debate
gothic-charm-school.com/charm...
Can you be goth without music? 22:01
Explaining the Definition of goth: 38:09
1. An appreciation of goth music
2. Aesthetic deviance that aligns with the sartorial idioms of goth.
3. Embracing darkness (manifest as an appreciation of the macabre, Gothic literature, finding beauty in the uncanny and abnormal, etc)
4. An active pursuit of incorporating these ideologies, material objects, and rituals into substantive, communal interaction. (lifestyle curation)
Is goth singular or multi-factorial? 52:47
How does The Gothic fit in? 57:50
Elitism in the Eternal Debate 1:11:22
Album Review: 1:15:03
Ghostland - Dances on Walls
manicdepressionrecords.bandca...
Sinister Suggestions: 1:30:19
-Man in the High Castle
-Witchhands
-The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina
-The Witchwave Podcast
-Lycia
-Them Are Us Too
-The Silent Companions

[@mjjjermaine]

Coming back to this older ep, I def think the idea of goth as a social media “aesthetic” instead of a real subgroup of people with shared interest hasn’t changed much. There’s a hyperconsumerist angle that y’all touched on - this idea of needing to make yourself fit by buying things but not thinking about if it “sparks joy.” Theres a fashion educator named Rian Phin who talks a lot about understanding yourself before shopping. By knowing what makes you happy, the rest comes naturally. It was fun to see yall come to the same conclusion! As a babybat I’m always appreciative of the more sociological analyses. To me the overlap of Goth and Academia sparks a looooot of joy 😉🖤 (also I took that pottermore quiz years ago and got a naked mole rat as my patronus. Pretty brutal lol)

[@moonwalkinbat]

i kinda blame instagram for that problem of people wanting that label, but they absolutely don't like any of the music, or even say literature or.. art maybe... they just care about the look, goth has been bleeding into the mainstream for a while now, and of course the mainstream takes it by the throat and makes it something its complete not. all those memes of "big tiddy goth gf" and that "goth gf" only listens to lil peep, wears black lipstick, dark clothing and a 90s choker. it's a meme but a meme that's very real, people actually think that n it makes me wanna puke. .-. im slytherin c': i'm not very bright soo i tbh do't deserve to be in raven claw lol i really liked the song, but for some reason i don't like female singers.. not that i think female singers are bad i just prefer more male singers, that goes for any genre. i'll definitely check out the rest of the album and artist on spotify though.

[@KaiDecadence]

- deep inhale - REEEEEEEEEEEE lol Sorry just had to be done but you're so freaking right that the "Big tidy Goth GF" nonsense is sort of these posers (sorry I'm not gonna apologize for being brutally honest here) who are trying to hijack the Goth moniker and make it into some sexual fetish for those SoundCloud Rappers that are claiming to be Goth as well. They don't know what Goth music actually is nor do they don't care to know neither. They just want to look spooky and "fuck goth looking bitches". That's it and it's gross and irritating and I can understand why actual female goths in the scene are beyond over it as they already had to deal with men thinking they were sexual deviant pain sluts back in the 90s to early 00s, this is just that in the modern time only now you have posers trying to live out that fantasy. Like seriously, when I try to look for new Goth channels to watch (I filter them), I run into so many "big tiddy Goth GF" memes and it's getting harder to find new channels because of it.

[@AndiV138]

Big-titted and hyper-sexual goth stereotypes are not only annoying, but they also spit on the goth subculture. Yes, I have seen many Instagram posts using the goth hashtag when they're not even related to the subculture. Everyone wants to sound "edgy" these days; hence, the reason for the "goth" hashtag being both overused and abused. I noticed Beach Goth tagged on the word “goth,” just to appear more aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it seems to be more fashion-based. If you heard the music, you would certainly not consider it “goth,” but a dark aesthetic may be attached. Apparently, this music genre is meant to sound more somber in mood and tone. So, once again, there’s that stereotypical idea that all goths are supposed to be bitter and sad 24/7, and hate their lives and everything around them, right? Of course not - that’s bullshit. And there it is, the dreadful stereotype creeping in and providing people with the wrong idea about goth itself. Underneath the actual surface, there’s an indescribable, distorted beauty bleeding through the goth subculture - not everyone may appreciate or understand.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@AndiV138 Couldn't have said it better myself lol.

[@outsiderx4844]

I like 90s chokers lol.

[@moonwalkinbat]

@@outsiderx4844 and that's PERFECTLY fine lol i wore them when i was in 1st grade up until mid highschool

[@AndiV138]

**Before I offer my opinion: I do not consider myself “goth;” I’m uncomfortable with labeling myself, using a music genre - but I call myself a “horror addict,” the label I’m most comfortable using. The truth is, most people (non-goths) do not associate goth music with the goth subculture anymore; instead, its corresponding fashion seems to hold far more importance. People will do anything to appear edgy, even if it means bastardizing said music-influenced movement. I truly appreciate several aspects of the goth subculture -- and yes, I love the music; it enthralls my brain, bleeding through many layers. Unfortunately, I’ve noticed some people have lost sight of what goth represents. Yeah, the fashion aspect can surely come into play - but the music element is responsible for shaping the subculture itself. Of course, people, goth or not, can listen to whatever genres they please. Clearly, they don’t have to listen to one genre/subgenre - that would be boring. After all, they're not going to lose goth points. Another point to add: People need to stop accusing others of “eliticism,” just for the sake of trying to educate and helping others understand. However, acting condescending and making fun of others for not knowing something makes one an elitist jerk, regardless of the movement, from which they represent. I will be going a bit off-topic here: I know people who have said, “Being goth is hard work.” You must be thinking: "What does that mean?" Well, to them, it’s all about dressing up and looking the part. Never mind the fact, that some of these people don’t listen to goth music, or even belong to the subculture. No one should feel that way, for appreciating something should come naturally; it shouldn’t be forced or feel like an effort. It has nothing to do with formulating a certain appearance or style. On another note, I enjoy the varying opinions surrounding all aspects of the goth subculture featured in these podcasts. I gotta check out more songs from Ghostland. I, too, was thinking of The Shroud, when I heard the song. It’s true that most of these bands sound as if they came out of the 80s or early 90s, so I can see the reason others feel the music doesn’t bring something different to the table. However, I love that 80s sounds, with its brooding, haunting beats and vocals. Can’t wait to check out your suggestions, as well as your other episodes! Thanks for streaming this podcast.

[@RavenWednesday]

Greetings Count, I will finish Listening tomorrow, its almost 2am better get rest, want to finish watching full attention not sleepy, good night

[@fia521]

Thank you, I was looking for something to listen to tonight!

[@FitzyCify]

"All goths should be Ravenclaw" As a Ravenclaw who is constantly mistaken for a Slytherin because of my all-black outfits, I greatly appreciate this statement.

[@TheSecondAdam]

And in one fell swoop all the Hufflepuffs pretend to be Ravenclaw and Slytherin to fit in.

[@freeandunexplained3011]

Haven't quite decided if I prefer commenting on podcasts here or on facebook. Anyway, I think my highlight of the year was discovering this podcast. I think the first episode I watched was the one with Liisa Ladouceur and I've been hooked every since. I also really liked the new albums by Selofan and TRAITRS as well as the first EP from the band Dead Spells. I've discovered a lot of music last year and I plan on discovering so much more next year, too. I agree that it's dumb to fit yourself into a label rather than finding a label that fits you, i.e. people who are so desperate to use the goth moniker but feel like they have to force themselves into liking goth music. For me, I genuinely just grew up in a small town where I barely knew what goth was, let alone what goth music was. As I slowly fell more and more in love with dark things, eventually finding the music was just a natural step for me; it was like striking a gold mine. Of course, I don't think I cared for 80's stuff at first, but as I listened to more modern acts, I started loving the older stuff too. I mean, I get Pain by Boy Harsher stuck in my head just as much as Evelyn by Clan of Xymox. I try to participate in the community as much as I can, including being a curator on the Trad Goth Amino (recommended by a guest on the podcast) and involving myself in the comment sections of goth content online. I recently found out there was a goth club a couple of hours away and I can't wait to go. Thanks to this podcast, it's helped a lot in my journey of self discovery with the scene and I hope 2019 will only get better.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

That's fantastic thank you so much!

[@colfaxpowers6829]

Thankyou I love this podcast

[@hatefulchains9238]

That Ghostland song really sounded like The Cure, like something from Pornography or Disintegration... Great! Could be livelier though, if the drums were live

[@stacimarie3]

Very happy to have found your channel! Looking forward to going through all of your previous podcasts.

[@marcofilingeri9249]

First, thank you Cemetery confessions to do such great videos. Keep it going! WHAT IS GOTH? On the actual topic I'd say that the definition proposed is based on the presupposition of an individual which is goth: An individual which like goth music is goth; An individual which aesthetic deviance aligns with the sartorial idioms of goth An individual who embraces the darkness An individual who pursues the incorporation of these into substantive, communal interaction. I'd say that, instead, Goth is at first a culture t h r o u g h which a g e n r e of the individual is identified. I'll say it simply. A culture is a criterion of recognizance of actions as the correspondent to a genre of the individual. In fact, at first, we recognize objects. Then we reflect, and we found that we ourselves are the recognizer. To recognize something there are four necessary conditions: first some unavoidable criterion of distinguish properties, second a unity of that distinction(e.g. a black dog on a green background is not a green dog), a sufficient clearness to be conscious about this distinction, and a sufficient efficiency of the first criterion to vary on distinct unity not confusing properties. In our case: the first is a presupposed criterion of distinguishing dark and not dark; the second is the unity of object in general, the third is our state of mind and its resources, fourth is health and intelligence. So, we distinguish dark(in a broad sense) objects and not dark objects, i.e. objects identified by dark properties or not. THEN we distinguish actions, referring to those objects: if those actions involve mainly the dark objects in such a way that he/she who acts them develop ease in an ambient in which those dark objects prevail, then those actions are called DARK ACTION(or GOTHIC actions). THEN the person, whose identification relies on a basis, which establishes the normality of that person on the continuity of he/she doing dark/gothic actions, may be called Goth. So, goth is a person, gothic is an action referred to objects or an object. I'd say, that a set of dark actions, which serve to recognize a genre of people- who generally are human- defines a DARK CULTURE. Gothic is a SUBCULTURE in the sense that not EVERY dark action serves to recognize someone as a goth. E.g. neither homicide is required, nor being acquainted with EVERY dark object in such a way that you Like it or you act by referring to it. Now, since we are talking about a SET OF ACTIONS, then a GOTH is someone who BELONGS to this set of actions, i.e. a set of actions which reference is Mainly to dark objects, or, more precisely, to the subset of dark actions which defines a type, i.e. a person with a standard range of action on the reference of which his/her identification is to be based regarding to their normal behavior. OTHER Thank you for the deep insights on music, the suggestions for 'fitting in' and the considerations about elitism

[@daisaigai7]

If she likes classical music, the next step would be neo-classical, something like In the Nursery. But Estampie is more connected to Renaissance music or Medieval. That's a little bit different. Many Goth groups worked with classical elements, even Sex Gang Children (with The Venomettes).

[@christie_exist]

I missed these podcasts!!

[@outsiderx4844]

Wow how am I just finding this channel.. Smashes sub button ..

[@necromancy6142]

90% of the music I listen to on a daily basis is classical or opera. clearly I'm not goth. what a load of bullshit. I am blonde (I dye my hair black) and I like Twilight. I've also been listening to joy division and other 'bands' that are post punk since I was 14 (I'm 45 this year), I've travelled the world and seen so many gigs, I read tarot and I have a day job where I do not reveal anything that is 'goth' about me. I think the discussion on defining it, as anything outside of purist views is getting really old. Don't get me wrong, this is an opinion based show and this is my opinion. Not only that 'the internet' is the real world as well. Don't ever discount whatever is online is not reality. I think just wear what you want, listen to what you want - but clearly if it's not all black, or all silver, or all vinyl, does not make you less goth. Enjoy the lifestyle - understand the spirit of goth, because it's not going to make you any less or more popular on the other side. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pn_YhoF-odiDnas The track that was being reviewed as well is very very similar to The Figurehead - The Cure. Check out the drum intro.

[@MaXfak3]

Understand the Spirit of Goth, Cool !!!

[@cosmicfaeriedust4009]

I went to the David Bowie one

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh boy... So much to say on this topic that frankly shouldn't even be a thing in 2019. But I'm going to start with the easy one and this one is directed toward Michelle with her dislike for "Darkly-Inclined". While it can sound weird calling someone darkly-inclined, it's really the most appropriate thing to call someone who has no interest in Goth music or Gothic literature, art, etc but likes things like dressing in dark fashion, skeletons, bats, etc. You know the spheal. Because the blunt truth about this is that things like Skeletons, Bats, Halloween, the Occult, etc. These things are not Gothic, they are just dark. Gothic has always been a certain thing mainly in the realm of literature, art (actual Gothic art that is from the 12th century and is inspired by it, not your run of the mill painting of skulls melting into each other), architecture, and film (which more or less follows the same themes that Gothic Literature does, just in motion). So a person who is not into any actual Gothic things but just like darker themed things is the definition for the word "Darkly-Inclined". So if someone were to ask this person "Are you a Goth" and this person wanted to be truthful, he/she could just say "I'm not a Goth but I'm more Darkly-Inclined" and if the person then asks what is "Darkly-Inclined", the person can respond with "I like dark things but I'm not into Goth music." That would more or less get the point across. It sounds weird sure but it's only because not enough people say it but watch, it would definitely catch on if more people were blunt about it because I find that these are the people who desperately try to cling to the word "Goth" because they feel that in order to be into the dark things they like, they need to be "Goth" to justify it and it's like... No, you don't need to be a Goth to enjoy dark things. Meanwhile you can't even call them Gothic-Inclined because they aren't into Gothic Literature, Art, or Film (actual Gothic films, not films like Underworld, Blade, Queen of the Damned, & Labryinth to name a few as these movies were Dark Fantasy, not Gothic like say Interview with the Vampire, Sleepy Hallow, Crimson Peak, or Jane Eyre to give a few examples). "Darkly-Inclined" is just the best word for it. I don't think "Goth-esq" or "Gothish" is good because that would pretty much be implying that they may enjoy the music a tiny bit when in actuality, they don't. I mean what other word would you call this? lol I hope this makes sense. As for the music bits. The thing that I was getting a bit annoyed with (though I understand one's mind can be a bit all over the place in the heat of the moment) but when you were all talking about how some people get caught up in the realm of trying to force themselves to get into 80s Goth music when they're starting which in turn can lead to lots of complications as it's not an easy genre to get into, I was hoping you guys would mention the other Goth genres they can try. Other than trying the second and third wave styles of Goth Rock, we also have Darkwave, Ethereal Wave, Coldwave, & Deathrock that newcomers can try out. These genres use the Goth sound in different ways and I think it's the best way to help ease in newcomers. Like personally when I come across newcomers who want to get into Goth music but don't know where to start, unless they already like 80s Pop/Synth-Pop/New Wave or Old school Punk music (not Pop Punk), I will NEVER recommend 80s Goth for them because I know they just may not enjoy it so I will always recommend bands from the present or the second-wave or third-wave as I find the sound is easier to digest. So instead of recommending the classic 4 that everyone knows, I'll offer bands like Paralysed Age, Suspiria, She Past Away, Drab Majesty, Miranda Sex Garden, Early Cocteau Twins, Love Like Blood, or Switchblade Symphony for example. I do agree that sometimes it's better to start newcomers off with something more modern sounding. As for Jillian Venters, she's a nice woman and all but her "You're half goth" thing is just nonsense and dumb. If you don't like any Goth music from the 5 Goth subgenres, how the heck can you be "half-Goth"? That just doesn't make any sense and that was just dumb thing for her to say. As for "what makes goth music", it's really not that hard to grasp. There is a sound structure for it. I sound like a broken record saying this to those who see me comment on this topic but the strong reverbed guitar, the thumpy bass guitar, the droning vocals (not always but usually), the use of a drum machine (again not always), and the usual 4/4 rhythmic timing that doesn't use a heavy backbeat, these are the elements that make your basic Goth rock sound. And then when it comes to the other subgenres of Goth, these subgenres took that foundation and added in different types of instruments to make it sound a bit different yet still retain the core of what is found in Goth rock. Goth rock is like the father and the subgenres are his children in a way lol.That's why you can have a Darkwave band like Clan of Xymox or She Past Away & Ethereal Wave bands like Requiem in White or Miranda Sex Garden and they'd still be Goth because the subgenre is using the Goth rock formula but just adding in a few more elements to the mix (Darkwave = Synth emphasis, Ethereal Wave = Effects-laden Guitar and high-register to almost operatic style singing). This is why it's very easy to shoot down people who say things like bands like Cannibal Corpse, Cradle of Filth, or Nightwish as not Goth because these bands don't use any of these Goth sounds in their music composition (why would they? They mainly are metal and use traits of metal with the occasional classical bits thrown in -COF & Nightwish). Yes, I do feel certain feelings when I listen to Goth music depending on the subgenre like when I'm listening to Ethereal-Wave, I feel relaxed and in a trance or when I'm listening to Deathrock, I feel aggressive and wild and when I listen to Darkwave or Coldwave, I feel like I want to dance LOL So I mean, I get it. But I just feel like people make this more complicated than it actually is. It's not all opinion, it is a fact, you can hear the way the instruments used in this genre sound and it's super consistent. We hear this with Metal and even Punk music, I fail to see why people can't see it with Goth music when it's so in your face... EARS about it lol. Anyway long comment is long, I ust hope what I said made at least some semblance of what I was saying.

[@necromancy6142]

Yeah I thought darkly inclined was just basic English language. Its not a genre but a description of types. I guess I should rethink my profile summary. Not.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@necromancy6142 Yeah there's just no other word that's better appropriately for these particular type of people unless say... "Alternative" but not all Alternative people like dark themed things hence why I think "Darkly-Inclined" is a good word for it.

[@ademcanvaner2567]

Hello Kai Decadence, I am a subscriber of yours, and I have very much respect for you as I love the videos you make, and I agree with everything you commented. I feel as if you took what I wanted to say right out of my mouth and said it for me. Goth is a genre the same way punk and metal are. It has a distinct sound, and it has "subgenres" (I call them "waves"). That's why it always shocks me that there isn't a goth section in music stores and they place goth albums under pop/rock or alternative. To me, as a goth as well as a metalhead, it is very clear as to what is goth and what isn't. Bluntly, I find people are just more drawn to the look because they think it's edgy or they think that there is something esoteric about it. But, truthfully, a goth is someone who listens to goth music. It doesn't matter how they look, what other genres they like, and whether or not they are into gothic films and literature. As that saying goes: "Punks listen to punk, goths listen to goth, and metalheads listen to metal... ". For years I have seen people try so hard to get into the subculture through the fashion and other redundant motives, but the truth stands: you're never goth unless you listen to goth music and it means something to you. As for the "darkly-inclined" term, I totally agree that it's the most appropriate term. "Alternative" may seem right, but that's a style of music as well which may not apply to the individual. On the other hand, I understand Michelle's frustration with the term because one should already know who they are, and sometimes a label isn't even needed. Just because a person likes skulls, bats, and horror movies does not mean that they need a title, especially one that is based on a stereotype. For example, myself: I like baby colours, figurines of animals, the colour peach (especially in home decor), Victorian dolls, small animals, jewellery, European tea/coffee sets (I am of Turkish and English descent), crystals, floral patterns, artificial flowers, and all of those things that most people would stereotype as "lady-like" or associate with elder women/grandmothers. Does that mean I need to be labeled "old-lady-inclined"? Or, for a person who is really into sports: "athletic-inclined"? And I am not talking about athletes, I mean specifically sports fans who watch games, collect sport-teams paraphernalia, and have usually never played a sport. You see what I am saying? Maybe Michelle may agree, I think that the term "darkly-inclined" is a way for people to stand out from the acceptable norm so that people can associate them with goths or people of the "alternative" subcultures. But, truth stands and truth be told, one will never be one of "us" unless they listen to that music. So, while I do agree with you that the term seems fitting, I totally agree with her sentiment because it is a redundant term. People don't need a label based off personal taste in aesthetic. Now, going back to the subgenres/waves topic, I think that they are very important. Even in metal, people oftentimes criticise them, but to me, a subgenre is just riffs. That's all it really is. When you look at Bauhuas, earlier 'Cure, and Joy Division, that is how post-punk sounds. Then when you listen to Christian Death, Alien Sex Fiend, and 45 Grave, you experience death rock. Rosetta Stone, Fields of the Nephilim, and Nosferatu: goth rock. Clan of Xymox, Suspiria, and Paralysed Age: darkwave. Faith and the Muse, Cocteau Twins, and some things from The Cure: ethereal. Blutengel, The Frozen Autumn, and The Crüxshadows: synth-pop. Again, that's what a genre really is: riffs and sounds. Having that said, my theory about why people like to see goth as something other than a genre has to do with two things. One is what happened in the '90s when the media associated the term with shock rock acts (names don't deserve to be mentioned) which created a lot of misinformation amongst the general public. The second thing is that the pioneers of the genre such as Siouxsie Sioux and The Sisters of Mercy have negated the title since the very beginning. It's not like in metal when you look back to Venom, Sodom, and Judas Priest, they proudly recognise the term "metal" as their genre. This makes a huge difference because when you have fans like you and I who are adamant about the riffs and musicality elements of the genre, and then we have the pioneers themselves opposing it (hence there not being a goth section in music stores), it makes ignorance an easier choice for people. That's why I know for a fact that the only way to eliminate stereotypes and this "darkly-inclined" label is through education in schools, especially in music classes. I mean, punk, metal, and goth all go back to the 1970s... I think that it's fair that the genres get recognised as part of music history in the West. And, ensuring that people learn about people of those subcultures would most definitely create a brighter future.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@ademcanvaner2567 You raised some good points. On the darkly-inclined thing, you're right that these don't necessarily NEED a label to call themselves. The angle I was coming from simply just to give the cliffnotes version when an obviously dark looking person who will inevitably get asked if they are Goth is a way for them to say what they're into without being mis-informative. IF these don't want to be called Darkly-Inclined, that's fine but the term will always be there if they want to have a "TL;DR" when people ask what they're into. The only problem arises when these people call themselves "goth" because then it spread this message that goth is all about how you look and liking dark or macabre things. The reason why I don't say this in addition to Goth is because it's a given that a Goth will already be into Dark, Macabre, or even Gothic things, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Goth who isn't also into these things. As for the pioneers rejecting the Goth label, I'm not sure if you saw my Pet Peeves video but what I said in it still remains true that just because Siouxsie, Robert Smith, and Andrew Eldritch reject the "Goth" label doesn't dismiss their contributions to the genre. It's true that Siouxsie and the Banshees only made one legitimate Goth album and the Cure only made like 7 Goth albums out of 13 official albums they produced. These contributions have been archived and treasured in the Goth scene even if they themselves moved onto other genres of music. And Andrew Eldrithc... LOL Well you know lol. Never mind the fact that themajority of their fans are goths and they are the ones who are mostly going to see them in concerts. And I think the reason why Goth never did get its own section in a music store is two reasons. One of them being the one you said of the pioneers rejecting the label and the other is that Goth music is just not accessible or mainstream (at least not after the 80s when it had it's few years of notoriety). Metal is very accessible and has been mainstream plenty of times from the Heavy Metal days of yore to Glam Metal and Nu Metal being shown to the masses. Goth... Only had one mainstream stint which was the 80s. The 90s was the time of the Industrial and also how media outlets were wrongly labeling Industrial music as the new Goth when that just wasn't true. Nonetheless, I'm just glad that more people are not afraid to stand up and say enough is enough. The scene is slowly trying to repair itself after the years and years of misappropriation and misconceptions. It's just funny and sad how Goth is the only music-based subculture that gets this sort of treatment. Punk almost fell into this trap when Pop Punk became the "in" thing (I won't lie, I like early pop punk LOL) and the authentic Punks were not afraid to call it out for what it was. And now it seems that Goth is doing the same and it's about time.

[@ademcanvaner2567]

@@KaiDecadence The look thing is definitely a challenge. I have a couple of normie friends who aren't as sure about what looks goth and what doesn't. One of them bluntly said to me that my outfit did not look goth at all to her other than for my boots. For a second I got confused but then I right away asked her if she's thinking "Mary Mason" (I am sure you get it lol) again, and she admitted that maybe that is in fact where her mind is going. So I had to tell her to think Siouxsie or Robert Smith whenever she hears the term. And, I've noticed that for years that normies expect a person to look very bionic whenever they hear the the term "goth". But, really, I find that the most "extreme" aspect of the look is usually in the makeup more than in the actual clothing. Connecting that back to the darkly-inclined people who dress like this, I totally agree that the term seems suitable for now, but I believe that they are still finding themselves. It's an avenue that I prefer to avoid because people like to get offended when I call a spade a spade. I remember enjoying some pop-punk when I was a tween before I was introduced to metal and goth (I was introduced to both at the same time many years ago). Being young and ignorant, I did think that some of those bands are actually punk, but then I learnt that I was wrong and ACCEPTED the fact. People have a hard time being wrong for some reason. And, as time went on, I learnt about new music and about myself, and became the man who I am today. I'll have to watch your video about those pet peeves. Please, paste a link here if you want because I'd like to see it. I know that your intention isn't to advertise on this channel, so you can just tell me the title if that works better for you. There is no way one can deny those musicians' influence on the genre. As for the '90s, I find that there was so much happening for goth (Suspiria, Rosetta Stone, Fields of the Nephilim, Nosferatu, Faith and the Muse, Clan of Xymox, Paralysed Age, London After Midnight, Witching Hour, and many more than I can remember or even know of. But, as you say, the rise of alternative and industrial-influenced bands in the mainstream got painted with that brush instead causing many people to be oblivious as to what was really happening in the goth genre. Yes, thanks to KZbin, many goths like yourself, Skullgirdle, Angela Benedict, LigeaResurrected, Dr. Sanders, Cemetery Confessions, Sweeney DeVille, and others have been able to come out and educate others on the genre and the subculture. I do feel optimistic about the upcoming decade because I do feel like there is going to be a "rise" or some sort of come-back. There are so many new bands forming in this "post-gothic" wave, and I find that people are liking it. I am sure it will always be very much in the underground as that's part of the point of the subculture, but it doesn't mean that it's not there. Just a slight FYI: I know metal isn't your genre, but just know that nu metal isn't metal. The mainstream labeled it as such, but metalheads know for a fact that it's not under the metal umbrella but rather adjacent to the genre. That's one of things that goth and metal have in common: both were defamed in the '90s by those nu metal and alternative bands being mislabeled. Real metal would be heavy/power/progressive/Viking/folk/black/death/melodic-death/doom/gothic/symphonic/thrash. Metalcore and groove can sometimes pass, but not always. As for the hair and glam stuff of the '80s, back then it was seen as metal, but for those like myself who are from either the '90s or the '00s , we see it more closer to hard rock due to the riffs and lyrical content.

[@middleofnowhere1313]

Little late.... I wouldn't really quibble over that person's music. They tick all the other boxes. I wouldn't hinge the whole "goth or not" just on whether they like certain bands. But eh, I'm old and mellow....

[@triangleshiny]

i genuinely think tying goth to music and only (or even mostly) to music does a disservice to people in the subculture. goth music is as important as it is because of the PEOPLE it brings together, not because the act of consuming a specific genre of a specific form of media chemically and anatomically turns you into a different kind of human being that's separate from the masses. everyone in a community isn't going to have the exact same tastes or interests, and the fact that an alarmingly high amount of people will flat out stop talking to you if you say you don't like music that is, at this point, 30-40 years old and tangibly different from what's being made today is literally absurd. the subculture can't progress if instead of changing or adding or improving anything, we're all circlejerking about how profound our very narrow set of interests are.