THE HARSH TRUTH BEHIND POKER STAKING | The Ugly Side of Poker

A poker staking agreement may be advantageous for both parties when done properly, however poker staking agreements gone wrong have led to some of poker's most infamous public disputes and ended many poker careers. In this video we look at the harsh truth behind staking in poker.
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#poker
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
0:49 Staking is Debt
2:54 No bankroll management
3:36 No improvement in game
4:32 BTS
4:54 No freedom
5:38 Pressure
Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

[@PokerBounty]

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[@Kyle-pj2vc]

This is why I play for fun, if you make it a job or get too serious, poker becomes a stressful, depressing, slog when you take it seriously. Play your hand and position well and don't get sucked in.

[@faulrevere8938]

💯🔥👊🏻

[@jeremyhall7951]

Doesnt "stressful" and "depressing" describe a majority of jobs?

[@Kyle-pj2vc]

@@jeremyhall7951 Yes but a way to ruin the fun of the game is to do it 8 hours a day. You never make your enjoyable hobbies a job, unless you want to grow to hate it.

[@ltisenotem]

@@Kyle-pj2vc Plenty of people make their hobbies their income. Playing poker as a pro is just like working for yourself. Some people aren't logical when it comes to so much freedom, and many people who try to go pro probably shouldn't and some can't bankroll to begin with

[@Kyle-pj2vc]

@@ltisenotem You missed the point.

[@mcpartridgeboy]

My problem is if i go to a casino and they are all staking each other its easy for them to colude and split the profits between them, thats a huge disadvantage for me.

[@goodfractalspoker7179]

One of my favorite poker channels. Keep up the good work man. Would love to hear your own personal opinion on some of these topics in the future alongside the usual non-bias reporting.

[@andrewl6136]

i personally believe a big issue of this is backing without coaching. some of my best coaches / backers were very very very persistent on hand history review... with that said the backer needs to be a good player OR have a good coach on hand to help his horses. (the backer needs to choose to take the time out of his day to teach or to pay a coach to teach)

[@loicgagnon-messier5016]

Another great vid!Wishing you and yours a happy holiday season!

[@PokerBounty]

Happy holidays!

[@mtavares92]

I honestly think it comes down to this. If you need to be staked by someone it probably means you are either not good enough to play the game or you are having poor game selection. Variance is only a real thing until a certain point. Besides, it looks like this kind of deal is already expecting me to lose a lot more than I will win, whilst not winning enough to make a difference. I think this scenario only makes sense if you are completely fucking broke but knowing that you are good enough to win and get through

[@mr.onethirtyeight5088]

This was extremely insightful

[@jleonas]

I don’t understand why a player would want to split their profits, or conversely why would a backer back someone who isn’t good enough to pay for their own stake.

[@chegasprez5162]

Every situation is different. I never signed a contract and was in a situation of profit sharing (a.k.a. COLLUSION!). We'd have a group of 10+ play a tourney (with own $$) and divide the profit. In 200 player tourney, we'd be 5% of the field, play tight at first, and work together when a teammate found his way to our table. Shady...but wonder how many farmers from Nebraska would play in Vegas knowing a pack of wolves were colluding as a team?

[@chegasprez5162]

We also had a system for tax evasion. Unfortunately, I made a few questionable decisions and was dropped from the team. I no longer enter big tourneys because I know the odds are stacked against individuals who think they're smarter than a rigged game.

[@whodouthinkuare]

Great video. Its the first Iv'e seen related to staking that actually goes in debt.

[@PokerBounty]

Glad you liked it!

[@andersnielsen6044]

An even more ugly side of poker is the "swapped" actions all over the cash game scene.. Most disgusting/spectacular in high stakes game of course.

[@jimmyraymond3008]

what's wrong with a swap? I have friends that every time we play the same tournament. we do a 3% swap. its gives you a sweat of the action if you bust but the guy you swapped with is running deep. unless the skill level is completely lopsided and one person is clearly gaining more than the other, its fine.

[@unknownchipmagnet3510]

One thing about staking I can't seem to get the answer to is how the taxes work... if you win 100k but have to give your backer 50k, how much do you have to pay in taxes??

[@lornemcconnachie8924]

You only ever pay taxes on the income after expenses and deductions, regardless if a Ltd/LLC or self employed

[@darthslackus499]

I can't even play poker well with my own money, no way I can play under the stress of being in debt.

[@jayfromaz]

The poker highway is littered with the bodies of once famous poker players that went broke. It's a game of chance. You can lessen the odds but a one outer can still beat you. Poker sites always list how much a player has won. We never know what their expenses were and how much they lost.

[@JasonHamilton00]

99% of the time they gobroke isnt even from poker.... its from other leaks in their lives... sports betting, casino table games, drugs, hookers etc etc. Ppl don't realize that the time you spend at the poker table is only a small part of it. You must b3 disciplined in life in general to last Asa poker player

[@igortolstov487]

People often sell action to go up in stakes. Then they get wrecked because there are no rec players in higher stakes to take easy money from

[@KKSuited]

Also depends. There is not a direct relationship between stakes and difficulty. $2-5 can be much tougher than $10-20. Not every table or cardroom is the same. In mine, the bigger the initial buy, the more likely that dude just has money and is ready to pay some shit off. Not in every case, but very often.

[@igortolstov487]

@@KKSuited I agree. It depends on where you play. I’m in Florida, and 2-5 game here is rec heavy. People just having a good time and blow some money

[@pokerfitnessyoutube2837]

Never back, and never get backed. If you can’t afford to buy into a cash game or tournament, you shouldn’t be playing.

[@N3CR0T1C_V3N0M]

As a cash player, I've never been able to work out the mathematics into an answer that becomes favorable to the one being backed. Between the variance and insanely high rake of online poker, the idea that someone would choose to be raked TWICE seems like nothing short of insanity. To beat both "rakes" one would have to be exceptional at the game to begin with, which, if they are truly this, poses the question as to why they need the backing in the first place. It's the equivalent of taking out a payday loan to pay another payday loan: you'll always be behind because you're paying twice the interest that you would have if you had just managed your money better or worked a couple more shifts. Potentially this is favorable if the backer is only looking for the most miniscule return, but I can be quite confident that they're few and far between, if they exist at all. Perhaps it works differently in a tournament setting where one big score can easily complete the expectation plus some, but I truly can't see how this is beneficial to the one being staked.

[@chaseroberts3111]

Great video, One question, is interest ever involved in staking? That is if someone stakes for %50,000 and the player takes 2 years to pay back the staker, , does the player pay interest on the debt?

[@PokerBounty]

Usually no, but it also depends on the agreement between backer and player

[@chaseroberts3111]

@@PokerBounty thanks

[@gregoryschmidt1233]

When Nik Airball's backers finally get tired of him punting off their million$, he's gonna be joining Ryusuke in hiding.

[@Bhodisatvas]

Seems like staking players is the same as funding degens.

[@jwilliams6002]

Not really. If you are staking someone in tournaments, (especially by giving the exact buy-in, each time they play) then you know exactly where every dollar goes. And it doesn't have to be 50/50. There are other ways. 20-25% freeroll, is another way. That way, the backer knows what they risked, at what they can get back, if they trust in their horse's ability.

[@2332Stephen]

Me and my co worker, we loan each other money for gambling but we both work and we both keep it under a certain amount and we pay each other back usually by next paycheck. It's not staking pursay but it's still loaning and a partnership in case the other needs some money up front.

[@lucasm1545]

Brother, that isn’t staking. That’s being a degenerate gambler who has no money so you and your gambling buddies bail each other out every other day to keep betting

[@2332Stephen]

@@lucasm1545 well people who have to be staked obviously don't have any money either. I have money in a savings account but I don't touch it so it's a fine balance between gambling and saving. Sometimes we want to go before payday so we loan each other money. I think staking is actually worse than borrowing because sticking means that you're so broke and you just want to be free rolled unless you actually win something so if you don't win you don't have to pay back the other person. That's worse than borrowing

[@Brian-vk1hm]

Backing players is a losing proposition 99% of the time.

[@indianapatsfan]

If the player keeps busting in tournament after tournament, how can the financial backer collect? Does the player have to offer some kind of collateral to enter the agreement?

[@PokerBounty]

The backer has to keep backing until he wins. Or else he can terminate the contract. This is one of the benefits of staking which is unlimited bankroll. So the backers also need to have a strong mindset for variance.

[@well.thy.one.]

Usually the players wife or girlfriend

[@andersnielsen6044]

@@well.thy.one. Or other crimes ordered by the gang of backers.

[@2332Stephen]

It's called working a job to pay it back😁

[@KKSuited]

I've never played a stake that I owed back past the date I played. I can lose, play again the next day and take home my 50% all the same. Find a better backer.

[@sdickinson5234]

That's different then selling shares for a tournament or whatever right? If you sell shares and lose you don't owe anything.

[@ReaperAHHH]

yeah in the real world you either swap a percentage with another player or someone buys a % piece of you. there's no "make-up" in fact a lot of people charge mark-up fees on their action. this video seems a bit dramatic tbh

[@theodorehsu5023]

Yeah, but finds more to buy shares in the next tournament will be hard if they know you didn't cash. Nobody wants pieces of a loser. Likewise, if a guy sells shares, loses, then rebuys on his own, if he then wins, he needs to at least give back double what he borrowed from others for the first buy-in. Recently Rampage Poker did that to show some gratitude to those who pur faith in him for bullet number one.

[@championchanph423]

@@theodorehsu5023 yes, but that's an issue. Rampage should have not done it. He is not obligated to give it and other pro players shouldn't. You said players SHOULD at least double but no, they SHOULD NOT.

[@T-roc57]

@@ReaperAHHH-I wouldn't say so, there are a lot of degens all over the place (not just vegas) that owe 6 figures or more from it which i think is the dark side he was referring to (chino rheem for example).

[@theodorehsu5023]

@@championchanph423 Then it's safe to tell your community, "I rebought, and I punted that first bullet. So if you don't like it, tough." And expect the next time you offer pieces, those burnt by the punting will hit that offering with flames, poison and acid, insisting that and future offerings should get hard passes every time. Rampage is one more for goodwill, so that's where that money went to. Because goodwill can be a more valuable commodity with a community. Others who can have higher bankrolls don't worry about their communities. Those who depend on the communities more need that goodwill.

[@benzienugent2010]

Is it more degenerate to stake or be staked?

[@gregoryfoster8179]

Stakers are not the brightest bulbs in the pantry.

[@jeffmelrose9719]

Better to light your money on fire !!

[@hazard_us132]

Mis regs

[@TomRauhe]

Shouldn't he split the 5.000 first and then repay 1.000, leaving him with only 1.500 in the first example?

[@PokerBounty]

Usually the makeup comes first and then profits are split. That is the regular norm.

[@firepowerpinball]

The graphic is also misleading, showing a $10K win. Still a good video overall. My brain goes: he’s paying $1000 back off the top. But he only “owns” 50% of it as per the 50/50 deal. So he’s keeping $500 of the backer’s money as a win bonus?!? Perhaps that’s just how it works, don’t think I’d agree to that as the backer. What if it was $1M tourney win and he owed me $100K? Id be giving the player a free $50K.

[@PokerBounty]

@@firepowerpinball Yes there was a mistake in the graphics it should be $1000 instead of $10000. Also the backers initial investment is never split. The backer initial investment will be returned to him from the profits and then the remaining is split.

[@richboyprado]

Ironic - he celebrates locks of the day the way you celebrate the Madden series. If you’re going to make a video about someone grifting - you should actually study the dude

[@briangulley6027]

If you borrow money to gamble, you're a damn fool. Only think worse is borrowing money to buy drugs, at least with gambling you might win.

[@funkgremlin2765]

If you have a positive EV poker isn’t gambling lmaooo

[@depalma13]

@@funkgremlin2765 If you have a positive EV, you don't need to borrow money to play.

[@briangulley6027]

@@funkgremlin2765 Yes it is, people bet on horses that are huge favorites and lose others bet on the dog and win big. Vegas casinos have a positive EV because the rules of the games give it to them. Poker rules don't give you a positive EV your current hand does but as we all know AA loses more often than it seems they should. You don't get enough positive EV hands that hold up to win at poker. The winning players win with their mind not the cards. Those players go through massive swings not many people can deal with that. I can't I play low stakes for fun win a few lose a few.

[@2332Stephen]

It's even worse if you borrow against a credit card