The heraldic blunder that wasn't: Wikipedia gets it wrong

[@rewboss]

This video's deliberate mistake (ahem!) is the plural of "Bach", which of course isn't "Bächer", but "Bäche". UPDATE: The Wikipedia entry appears to have been rewritten within hours of this video going live. I obviously wield considerably more power than is good for one person to have...

[@equolizer]

I'm German and after reading this I've been contemplating for 5 minutes if I would've said Bache or Bäche (or Bachs?)... I agree that Bächer is wrong, though. :D

[@TheCassiusTain]

@@equolizer Becher is the only acceptable plural

[@equolizer]

@@TheCassiusTain Prost!

[@MariaMartinez-researcher]

When you find a mistake in Wikipedia, you correct it, and support the edition with reliable sources. That's the point of Wikipedia: everybody can edit it. Including you.

[@eisikater1584]

@sorenm.lairdsorries7547 "technical", really? I'm from the Bavarian forest, and Bache, Eber, Frischling are words we all know. It's like Sau, Eber, Ferkel for domesticated pigs. Other wild animals or even hunters' terms, I don't know much about that.

[@TheCassiusTain]

Rewboss is turning into some kind of Germany only Tom Scott.

[@agbook2007]

And I am here for it! 😄

[@angharadhafod]

Except that hopefully he is here to stay, and not about to fly off into the sunset attached to a helicopter.

[@jlljlj6991]

More like Tim Byrne (the Tim Traveller), but yeah.

[@lonestarr1490]

​@@jlljlj6991 Wanted to say that. Every time he starts by describing the old town centre of a settlement I half expect a "but of course, we're not here to see any of that!"

[@edwinhuang9244]

Both are british too

[@Me1le]

That coat of arms from Hensbroek is glorious.

[@robertwilloughby8050]

It's Dutch, they love taking the mick out of themselves.

[@henningbartels6245]

Coat of arms are often "sound paintings" (or canting arms). The coat of arms of Berlin shows a bear, though there is no linguistic link to bear in the name but rather has a Slavic origin for a swamp. Magdeburg's coat of arms show a maiden on a castle, though newest research suggests the name also could mean originally Mächtige Burg (mighty castle).

[@shinyagumon7015]

Which makes sense to me; most of these coats of arms were adopted during the Middle Ages, when most people couldn't read or write, so having a kind of logo that spells out the town's name in pictures was probably very useful.

[@charlesgrant-skiba5474]

As for the name of the city of Belin, the theory that it comes from the Slavic term for swamps is relatively new. Previously it was thought that it came from another Slavic word for scepter (Berlo). There were also a few other, less popular theories. The version with a bear was also not completely abandoned, because some Slavic rulers used this Germanic word to describe their strength. So the truth will remain unknown. Regards.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Hey, a watchman for Wächtersbach is totally fine. it many not be the original idea behind the name, but it has become ubiquitous enough that it may well be.

[@NicolaW72]

@@shinyagumon7015 Indeed.

[@pumbaacca]

Fun fact: That mayor was the father of Rocketbean's Simon. Another fun fact: The Ysenburgs of Büdingen became extinct last century but the last Prince adopted his nephew, an Ysenburg from Wâchtersbach. The Ysenburgs of Wächtersbach are now extinct but live on as Ysenburgs of Büdingen.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

And that isn't even confusing. Everyone who wants to do a deep dive into chaotic lands and nobility should see the ernestine line of Saxony.

[@JM-mg4el]

Another fun fact: rbtv sucks and Simon is a lunatic nowadays

[@lillywho]

I didn't even know Wächtersbach had a historical centre... We only came there for the Messe and that's it.

[@pumbaacca]

To be fair in that part of Germany it's hard to find a town or village without an at least tiny historical center. It's in most parts definitely not big and spectacular enough to attract tourists but you can find half timbered houses just everywhere.

[@martin.brandt]

The somewhat lunatic name (in English) of nearby "Bad Orb" may also be worth a video

[@moatl6945]

Pro: It was part of Bavaria until 1866 Contra: The joke on the name works in English, only.

[@martin.brandt]

@@moatl6945 The more surprising it is for Germans. And nearby is the village of "Aura im Sinngrund", which in return makes no sense in English.

[@Nils.Minimalist]

... and pls don't start mentioning the municipality of "Linsengericht" 🤫

[@martin.brandt]

@@Nils.Minimalist Quality assessment center for the optical industry?!?

[@lhpl]

​@@martin.brandteither that or "lentil dish", I guess. 😂

[@berlinflight_tv]

My guess is that the entry may have been written (or edited) by someone from one of the formerly independent villages who was salty about their town having become a part of Wächtersbach - and this was their way of airing their grievances.

[@mickimicki]

That thought crossed my mind, too. These incorporations of Hessian villages in the early 70's often didn't happen exactly voluntarily. Small places only had the choice between being incorporated into a (usually) bigger municipality by their own initiative, or, at some deadline in 1974, being forcibly incorporated into a municipality by the Hessian state. So there were certainly a lot of ruffled feathers for all kinds of reasons.

[@soundscape26]

Plausible.

[@enochliu8316]

To be clear, this is German wikipedia, not English Wikipedia.

[@fackgugle6497]

The Article for Wächtersbach is already corrected de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=W%C3%A4chtersbach&diff=245683210&oldid=245373132

[@holger_p]

There is only one Wikipedia. They support authoring in different languages.

[@fackgugle6497]

@@holger_p Not exactly, the different language versions are all part of the Wikipedia project but also seperate: so they use the same software, the same servers, the same licence and some very general rules und you can use one account for all of them, but apart from that they have very different rules e.g. what articles are allowed (German Wikipedia ist more strict then English Wikipedia), who can create or edit articles (in some versions you can only edit with an account, in some it's forbidden to be paid for editing), what information are acceptable in articles, ...

[@holger_p]

@@fackgugle6497 to me, this fullfills all requirements to be one Software. It's crosslinked in any Dimension. But it's knitpicking, if or if not.

[@Baustibaer]

when i lived there we learned about the history of the town in school. if i remember correctly the watchman is a charcoal burner from the founding myth. when barbarossa got lost in the forest, the charcoal burner painted two black lines in the snow to show the way home. after that he was knighted. the two lines are at the bottom of the coat of arms. i do not know if it is the true origin. just what we learned in school.

[@berlinflight_tv]

Considering that the coat of arms really looks like a watchman standing by a brook, this could well be a case of a later folk interpretation of the image. For that to develop, however, the motif must be well-known, so this supports the idea that the original is much older than 1982.

[@pumbaacca]

This story about Barbarossa and the charcoal burner in the Büdingen forest is taught in the whole area. Those lines became the cote of arms of the Isenburg and Ysenburg princes and counts who ruled the whole area and so those lines also entered several towns' coat of arms.

[@hanshartfiel6394]

I just checked my sauces and discovered that I haven't got any so first thing tomorrow off to the shops and buying some sauces

[@Arcturus367]

he ment saucers, maybe some are missing in the cupboard

[@kleinweichkleinweich]

got mustard too

[@baritonfelix]

The people of Lüneburg thought for a long time that their town was named for the moon goddess Luna. To underscore this, they built a fountain depicting the Greek goddess of hunting, Artemis. (I'm sure it was more complicated than that, but good enough for Wikipedia ;) )

[@theoztreecrasher2647]

And there was me thinking that it was where they used to lock up all the loonies in the old days! 😜😂😂

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Oh, Wächtersbach perfectly encapsulates the small german town feeling. It isn't touristy in the "huge multicultural metropolis" sense, but more in the raw, real, "people live here" sense. I bet they have some lovely Kneipen and maybe some family run italian restaurant. They they surely have a cafe with great Kaffee und Kuchen.

[@NicolaW72]

👍

[@moatl6945]

It's the major problem with canting arms: they're based on some word-play. I wonder Rewboss didn't mentioned the most obvious example in Germany: Berlin. The bear (Bär) in the coat of arms has nothing to do with the Slavic origin of the name… But you have to consider: Coat of arms for most communities (adm. regions, districts, municipalities) are a pretty new story in Germany. Towns, market downs and some municipalities are an other story, tough. For example: The district (Passau) my parents are born didn't had a coat of arms of it's own until the late 1960ies. So the book, published for the 100th anniversary of the district my mother got in 1962, doesn't show the coat of arms of the district but the coats of arms of two of the municipalities (Neuburg and Hals). Even the Bavarian Regierungsbezirke got their coats of arms officially not until the 1970ies. »Honestly«: For the coat of arms of the Shakespeare family I would have expected some kind of a beer-shaker; but I'm no bartender and I don't know what to expect… ;)

[@moenchii]

A village near here called Eschenbergen also has a canting coat of arms. It shows 3 green ash leaves on a silver background floating above a green hill with 3 peaks. The name of the village means "ash mountains".

[@NicolaW72]

Thank you very much for another nice little fun trip!😃🧡👍

[@frankhooper7871]

Hmmm - looked in my cupboard; there's tomato ketchup, HP sauce, mayonnaise - sauces checked.

[@Astrofrank]

Gut recherchiert und erklärt - rewboss halt.

[@GrenadierCNikel]

I am really enjoying this new-style of videos! Keep up the great work 😁

[@MartinBrenner]

Love this little story. Thanks!

[@CharlyHubble]

Tolles Format. Gefällt mir sehr gut.

[@glpxt]

1:54 Plural of Bach is Bächer? That's what I call throwing stones in a glass house. 🙂 And apropos Wächtersbach doesn't cater for tourists: The postage stamp at 5:00 states "Besucht den Erholungsort Wächtersbach". But maybe circumstances have changed over the last 50 years.

[@rewboss]

Oh... yeah, that's a typo.

[@glpxt]

@@rewboss I guessed so, of course. But I couldn't resist anyway.

[@robertyoung9611]

My area of expertise is English rather than German civic heraldry, although I love both. It was common for towns here to adopt a coat of arms, with a play on words. This locally adopted coat of arms was then officially granted to the town at a later date. Congleton in Cheshire comes to mind, the arms consist of a barrel "tun" between two conger eels. The same phenomenon could be at play here.

[@FlorianBaumann]

My Grandma only has Vileroy & Boch, but we have a full set of Wächtersbach hollow-ware that we bought after marriage.

[@marcelthoma8890]

I don't know why the author/authors of this article where obsessed with the idea that the watchman is a mistake. There dozens of examples for canting arms like Berlin's one: The name itself refers to a slavic word for swamp, not a real bear. And nobody said that the small Thuringian town of Ziegenrück should change its code of arms to a river bend. The town is located at river (Sächsische) Saale in an aera where are many river bends. The code of arms shows a smboliced town on a goat's back (Ziegenrücken).

[@KnitterX]

Even though I am from nowhere near the small town of Wächtersbach, I had this random trivia stored in the back of my head that Rainer Krätschmer was its mayor in the 90s. That's because he was also the father of TV host and KZbinr Simon Krätschmer.

[@John_Weiss]

FunFact: In Medieval German bzw. Mittelhochdeutsch, every vowel written was pronounced individually. More on that below. But first, we need to address what the individual vowel letters, ‚a‘, ‚i‘, ‚u‘, ‚e‘, and ‚o‘ represented. Back 800 years ago they followed the "Classic Latin 5-vowel system" … which just means that ‚i‘ had the pronounciation that „ie“ has today, and the rest were similar to the modern pronunciation. If you don't know German, they're pronounced similar to English as follows: ‚a‘=="ah", ‚i‘=="ee", ‚u‘=="oo", ‚e‘=="eh", and ‚o‘=="Oh". Now, back to double-vowels. Because each written letter was pronounced, words like „die“ were pronounced „di-e“ ["dee"-"eh" for English speakers, „die“-„e“ for Germans]. Likewise, „ein“ sounded something like: "eh"-"een" or in modern German orthography, „e“-„ien“. I know, clear as mud. [Sorry, but not everyone's gonna know the IPA, which is why I'm doing this janky "sounds-like" stuff.] Once you get the hang of saying this „e“+„ie“ combo, you can start to hear how, due to language change, the 2 vowels blurred together and then shifted over to an „ä“. This would be why, „Weicher“ turned into „Wächer“. Why all of the „ei“ dipthongs from Medieval German bzw. Mittelhochdeutsch didn't turn into „ä“ but became its modern pronounciation [Non-German speakers: „ei“ is identical to the English "eye"], I have *_no_*_ idea._

[@joaovitormatos8147]

Apparently, German Wikipedia is infamous between Wikipedians for its... Sub par level of research

[@FakeSchrodingersCat]

What even compared to Wikipedia in general? That is saying something.

[@kacperwoch4368]

Good to know, i sometimes reference German articles to check the German spelling of older names but from what you say it seems i should be cautious.

[@dietwald]

Because all the competent Wikipedians operate in English

[@Sp4mMe]

To be honest this sounds more deliberately fabricated than a mistake. You don't just "erroneously" come up with an entire story about heraldic jealously; unless that's claimed somewhere in error before you are just making stuff up at that point. Which is more deliberately sabotage than bad research.

[@Asmodis4]

@@dietwald wouldnt say that, but a LOT of this authors are POLITICAL driven, with a peak since Wagenknecht and the AFD are in public. The old major kretschmar was from the SPD and the article got written that way AFTER he passed away RIGHT before the last federal state elections in hessia go figure.

[@bowfinger26]

What's your take on Wixhausen then? :-)

[@JensFrank]

That COA would get the video to be demonetized.

[@NicolaW72]

@@JensFrank Surely.😅

[@michaelcolin9887]

Wixhäuser hier. There's really not much for Rewboss to see here. There are some goats here though in case you like goats. Not many mind you.

[@jannetteberends8730]

It’s a beautiful city. I like the geometry,

[@bluebillbo]

This is proper Rewboss content! smashed it out of the park!

[@Steve-Richter]

Yes! Ignore any and all social problems facing the country.

[@soundscape26]

@@Steve-Richter Hummm... what? There are other channels for that.

[@ArfurFaulkesHake]

This happens quite a lot. Another example for canting arms is Berlin. Which has a bear in its coat of arms, as Berlin sounds a bit like Bärlein (little bear). The origin of the name Berlin is, most likely, the slawic word brlo/birl which means swamp. Makes sense for a City built on a river delta.

[@Hansaman58]

I’ve never been to Wachtersbach but was born in Frankfurt/Main and lived in Budingen for a time in the late 1950s.

[@tillneumann406]

Small world.

[@nilsvanvelzen]

extra notice. In you example of Hensbroek. Note that "Hen" is a chicken in Duch, Broek is trousers and the s after Hen can be used to expres ownership. Hence the whole towns name is in the picture 🙂

[@ronin667]

"Canting" coats of arms are very widespread, but I think the most interesting ones are those that have something to do with a boar - they are mostly used for places the name of which has the word "Eber" in it, for example Ebersberg. However, at least for some of these places it isn't entirely clear where that part of the name comes from - probably not from an actual connection with boars. It has been suspected that those place names are the last remnants of a language that was once spoken all over Europe. Another example is Eboracum (= York) in England, but there are also examples in countries without Germanic heritage, like the river Ebro in Spain. Since Ebro comes from the Basque word for "river", some linguists have suspected that the lost European language may have been related to modern Basque, and therefore called it "Vasconic". However, proof for this hypothesis is thin and it has been widely criticized.

[@Wolfsgeist]

Too be clear, 'canting arms' doesn't mean that's it's a pun or anything, just the arms show what's in the name. So Hensbroek is more the exeption, while something like Wolfsburg (who's coat of arms has a castle with a wolf on top of it) or indeed Wächtersbach are the norm.

[@GazilionPT]

I don't think the point is whether there is a pun/joke or not, bur rather that the images depicted in the coat of arms relate to how the name of the town *sounds* (or reminds us of - even if remotely), *not* to the actual *etymology* of the town's name. That's why both Berlin and Bern have bears in their coats of arms: because the names of those cities *somewhat sound like* the German word for bear ("bär"), not because there is some bear involved in the foundation of any of those cities. Likewise, the Portuguese town of Chaves (literally, "Keys") depicts two keys because the name of the town sounds like that, not because the name of the town has anything to do with keys. Historically, it evolved from Latin "Aquae Flaviae" (literally, "[Spring] Waters of Flavius"), a name derived from the hot mineral water found there and the name of emperor Titus, a member of the Flavian dynasty. For some reasons, many Latin "fl" consonant clusters evolved in Portuguese to a "ch" sound, so "Flaviae" became "Chaves". So, eventually the town chose the keys as their symbol, even though they are perfectly aware that keys have nothing to do with the town's name. (However, Chaves is close to the Portuguese/Spanish border and historically was an important strong point in protecting our country, which lead at least one American youtuber I've watched stating that the name of the town derived from it being "the key to the kingdom of Portugal"... :face_with_rolling_eyes: )

[@renerpho]

Speaking of places that have chosen the "wrong" court of arms, you don't need to leave Hesse. Allendorf (Eder) is a fun example. They adapted their coat of arms in 1967, from what they (probably erroneously) believed to be the COA of the old "von Allendorf" family. The decision was criticized as early as 2004, and Wikipedia this time gets it right by explaining the problem. The COA they use is probably that of the "Bang" family. In the 15th and 16th century, those were rich citizens, but with no close ties to Allendorf itself. Essentially, the place has taken the COA of an unrelated family and used it as their own.

[@ThamiorSilberdrache]

Did you correct the Wikipedia article on that matter? Because that's what a wiki is meant for: To allow people to correct anything they find wrong.

[@Gulitize]

Other examples are Berlin with its bear, and Lederhose with a Lederhose in its coat of arms, another one is Füssen there are a bunch of these types of COA all accross Germany, so it is not even rare

[@rivenoak]

München / Munich uses a monk

[@varana]

@@rivenoak That is, as the main theory goes, the actual etymology of the city name.

[@dirtywaterpj_dj]

Can you edit Germán Wikipedia just as we can the English version, to correct it?

[@JensFrank]

Of course you can edit the German Wikipedia just like the English one. But that wouldn't get you any clicks. Now if Rewboss would have provided the sources that he used for the video (e.g. the picture of the COA next to the stamp), that would be helpful to actually update the article.

[@someguy31415]

Canting arms are *everywhere* in Germany. The most famous example is clearly Berlin, whose coat of arms features a »Bär« (bear), even though the name Berlin has nothing to do with bears. Same with Magdeburg, whose coat of arms consists of a »Magd« (maid) standing on a »Burg« (fortress), even though the name either means »mächtige« (mighty) »Burg« or may even be of Slavic origin, with a meaning even more removed from the arms’ imagery.

[@Tilumbus]

Very nice village and great shots of it. Really enjoyed it. Please more of that kind. That overly scandalized story about something meaningless was a little annoying. Maybee leave that out next time. The rest was great on its own.

[@HansBezemer]

The Dutch "broek" doesn't mean "brook". It means "swamp". Just like "-loo" means "forest", and "-koop" means a long stretch of land.

[@vincentschult1725]

Fun fact, Berlin uses a bear in its court of arms. Berlin sounds like it uses the German word Bär (bear), even though the name actually comes from old Polabian, a Slavic language, meaning something like “Swampland”.

[@TiberentenTV]

The coat of arms of none other than the very city of Berlin itself has a little bear in it ("bêrlîn" in middle high German, "Bärlein" in modern high German), while akchually, the name "Berlin" is a Polabian word for "place by a swamp". Boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder!

[@henningbartels6245]

"Berlin" was the Polabian name of the swamp - not a place nearby. It's a toponym and in older map you see "The Berlin" - so it is not a generic term, but the specific name of that swamp.

[@mahuhude]

It’s a bit similar to Berlin, where the coat of arms shows a bear, but the name Berlin is from the Slavic and means something like wet swamp.

[@nader50752]

Can't wait for someone to change that German language Wikipedia article now.

[@oumuamua1673]

So as you're already on the path of the Ysen-/Isenburgs, will Büdingen be next?

[@MNalias]

The coat of arms of Bärlin depicts a Bär for the same reason.

[@freebarents]

Obwohl Westersbach kein besonders attraktiver Ort für Touristen ist, kann man mit der Buslinie 80 in 15 Minuten nach Bad Orb fahren, das eine sehr malerische Stadt ist. Auch in Wächtersbach habe ich die Sprache an der AWZ Weiterbildungszentrum gelernt, die Lehrer dort sind sehr gut.

[@gscott5062]

When I lived in Slovakia, I was always amused by the coats of arms displayed at the entrance of every tiny village, usually depicting something like knights, dragons, or various heroic deeds. But maybe they were a form of canting coats of arms - my Slovak is way too basic to know.

[@whatsgoingon71]

As far as coats of arms goes, this one is pretty good. And good branding too. 😅

[@red.aries1444]

You should create your own canting arms. 🙂

[@aaron5809]

I kinda like the thought how this could confuse historians in 500 years trying to find out the names origin

[@meinacco]

Did you get the story from the english or german language Wikipedia? As far as i know they have very different standards when it comes to sourcing information with the german one being much more strict unless no one pays attention.

[@mickimicki]

Careful! Grandmas? I have several of these mugs. And I think I'm (barely) younger than you!

[@calmeilles]

"Whoever wrote that article didn't do their research very well." --- Might well be Wikipedia's motto. 🤣

[@MrGreatplum]

Love this sort of thing!

[@ivanyaros]

Well, I would say that the city has problems with cars, not with parking. Too many cars --> too little place for pedestrians. Simple law

[@GroovingPict]

people love to make little plays on words like that, and, human nature never changes. So one can safely assume that people centuries ago also enjoyed making them

[@fixit4387]

Der Fehler ist schon seit 2007 drin, von einem nicht angemeldeten Benutzer.

[@custodialmark]

i not yet get reply as to our family name. graybeal came frum several variations . as seen in study documented all 15 generations since 1479> thomas jefferson graybeal as a robert made book. krayhen buehl ,crow/raven, and is hill or forrest ? i seen once but not save source. Hoechsterren , frum Bern. said kraybill a founder of seperations.

[@nirfz]

;-) If you stop the video at 2:31 this is a picture where you can loose OCD peoples attention to what you said i guess. There are several such images throughout the video, Where the "Fachwerk" outside look does not align with the straight level of the modern windows. Whoever put in the windows made sure they are level, but the old wooden beams that make up the outside of the wall and are painted in contrast, aren't straight, they were often hacked out of trees by hand before modern machines were a thing.

[@arnomrnym6329]

Wurde heute direkt korrigiert. Der hat wohl auch dein Video gesehen. Oder warst du es etwa selbst? 😉

[@rewboss]

Also, ich war es nicht; und heute morgen war es noch nicht korrigiert. Anscheinend habe ich jemanden erfolgreich geinfluenced.

[@arnomrnym6329]

@@rewboss Schaut so aus. 😉👍🏾

[@NicolaW72]

@@rewboss In der Tat.😄👍

[@eisikater1584]

So the town's name should actually be "Weihersbach". A pond and a brook. Doesn't sound very impressive. "Wächtersbach", however, immediately raised the image of a brook that's heavily guarded, maybe because it was on the front line of some medieval war, and a town that arose from a military fortress back then. Whether they knew the truth or not, I think taking the guardsman into their coat of arms was a wise decision. And, Andrew: You're a brave man taking Deutsche Bahn these days to such a far-off location. You should take an emergency ration with you. I recommend the Bundeswehr's EPa type 37, "Nudeln mit Bolognese-Soße -Zitronenkuchen- Leberwurst". Careful with your teeth when trying the "cookies"! In Bundeswehr jargon, they're called "Panzerplatten", for a reason.

[@pierrehenriot2480]

Frankfurt, not Fränkfört

[@kleinweichkleinweich]

does Wächterbach even exist? I mean with AI everywhere? asking for a friend from "Bielefeld"

[@Born.Toulouse]

Keep your eyes open when choosing a career, folks! Being a KZbin influencer isn't always fun, especially if you have to spend your days in places like Wächtersbach ;-)

[@troelspeterroland6998]

Wikipedia and the field of humanities at its worst.

[@PelenTan]

You say "check your sources." But you're talking about Wikipedia. Which is where you generally go to find out what the answer _isn't_.